danvm

williamlondon said:

Hubro said:

danvm said:

Agree, the M1 changed everything.  That's the reason I said that a X1 Nano (or X1 Carbon) with a M1 would be my perfect computer.  An excellent mobile processor with the best design and construction in a notebook.

Just for clarification, the X1 Nano (as well as the X1 Carbon and the P1) are carbon fiber in the top and magnesium alloy in the bottom.  Maybe that's the reason a car can run over it, and still working.  Nice, don't you think?

...It's getting really boring, and for my part, it stops here.

Unfortunately for the resident Wintel corporate shill, it never stops, he never stops and AI just loves the conflicts he produces in his ridiculous posts as people respond and that creates activity (which in turn results in more $$), as if *any* of us come to this forum to have someone sell us on another company's products. It's just pathetic and people like that ruin what *could* otherwise be a fun discussion forum. I just wish people would stop replying to him (and his brethren ilk) so I wouldn't have to suffer his insufferable lunacy in replies. Sigh.

Just to clarify, most of my devices in my household are from Apple.  So the "Wintel corporate shill" don't apply to me, but neither I'm an "Apple shill", since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my Apple devices.  And neither I have devices from Lenovo.  But in my line of work I have to work with all kind of devices and brands, from notebooks to professional workstations.

If you read my posts you'll see why, IMO, ThinkPads are better designed compared to Apple notebooks.  Does it means that Apple devices are bad?  But neither are perfect, and if you want a recent example, just look at the butterfly keyboards.  Based in my experience, some Apple notebooks are better than ThinkPad and viceversa.  But in construction, and design, I give the advantage to ThinkPads.  The iMac is the best All-In-One in the market, while the Mini have some competition from the HP Z1 and the ThinkStation Tiny.  The iPad is the best tablet, until you add a keyboard + trackpad, where the Surface Pro does a better job.  And the HP Z-workstations and Lenovo ThinkStations maybe betterthan the Mac Pro, depending in the usage.

Does this sound to you pathetic and from a Wintel corporate shill?  Hope not.  Again, most of my posts are based in what I experienced in the field.  When you are outside the Apple bubble you can see what's good and bad with Apple and with other devices.  And I have zero issues praising or criticizing any of them.  But if you think that every Apple device is absolutely better than other vendors, then you may need to expand the list of devices you use, and it may surprise you what you may find.  

Hubro said:

danvm said:

Based in your comment, the benefits are in the assembly process.  A part from that there is no benefit for the end-user.  

Also, the issues with impact and vibrations are part the tests Lenovo does to their notebooks.  

Lenovo ThinkPad | Military-tested Rugged Laptops | Lenovo US

That's the reason I mentioned the X1 Nano, which show that you don't need to seal / glue a device to have a good design.  From a design and quality of construction POV, I think that Apple is very good, but ThinkPads are better.

I will easily pay premium for that X1 Nano with an M1 chip.

You draw the full conclusion by a single advantage. Thats flawed. I got a Thinkpad right next to me right now. I only start it to keep it up to date. I don't want a X1 Nano or any other Lenovo device. If I wanted to buy a Thinkpad (a gift to someone who actually want one) it would be a T14. The only X even in the picture would be X1 Carbon extreme gen 3 15. The Thinkpad brand is totally diluted, and MacBook became the better alternative to Thinkpads in 2010. 

If you are concerned with military specs, it's probably duly tested and inspected inside out by the People's Army. I consider Lenovo a risk for sensitive governmental and military use in any country.  

I draw a conclusion based in your comment.  At the end, the only answer I'm seeing on why a glued / sealed device is a good design choice is because Apple do it.  Maybe there are good reasons for that, but no one has explain them.  IMO, what Lenovo did with the X1 Nano regarding size, weight and quality of construction is admirable.   

And I'm not sure ThinkPad brand being diluted.  Maybe in the consumer market, because in the business / enterprise still very strong.  

I'm not concerned with military specs.  I just pointed out how good is ThinkPads are designed.  If you don't like them or not for government use is a different story, and not related to the quality and design of the device.  

Hubro said:

danvm said:

sdw2001 said:

crowley said:

I don't think many people defend the butterfly keyboard design any more, but we were talking about RAM, storage and the M1 SOC.

Gluing is a bit more divisive.  You're right in that it's less repairable, but there's also a strong argument that gluing improves overall integrity meaning that you may not need to repair it nearly as quickly.  It's a trade off either way, and some people will likely get burned by misfortune.

Yes, we agree here too.  Apple's recent approach involves tradeoffs, as most things do.  What I'm seeing though is there's a contingent led by a certain individual who is claiming that there are no benefits, ergo there are no trade-offs at all.  I suppose the real point I'm making is that there are two sides of the equation here.  I totally understand that lack of upgradeability and user serviceability is a disadvantage for some people.  But the current approach also clearly has several benefits.  I really don't see why those arguing the other side won't acknowledge that.  

Based in the comments, the benefits of a sealed / glued device was lightness and size.  That's the reason I mentioned the X1 Nano, which has both, and still simple to service.  I also read that it's about reliability, but I haven't seen any stats supporting that.  

You mentioned that the "current approach clearly has several benefits".  What are those benefits?

The assembly process is much simpler and faster with fewer part and glue instead of screws.
Using screws in the assembly makes e.g the logic board almost a "rigid part of the chassis" whereas the adhesives are flexible. That reduces the impact of vibrations and shocks on the logic board and battery +++

A passenger jet or a supertanker will break up if they were rigid. It has happened.

Based in your comment, the benefits are in the assembly process.  A part from that there is no benefit for the end-user.  

Also, the issues with impact and vibrations are part the tests Lenovo does to their notebooks.  

Lenovo ThinkPad | Military-tested Rugged Laptops | Lenovo US

That's the reason I mentioned the X1 Nano, which show that you don't need to seal / glue a device to have a good design.  From a design and quality of construction POV, I think that Apple is very good, but ThinkPads are better.

I will easily pay premium for that X1 Nano with an M1 chip.

sdw2001 said:

crowley said:

I don't think many people defend the butterfly keyboard design any more, but we were talking about RAM, storage and the M1 SOC.

Gluing is a bit more divisive.  You're right in that it's less repairable, but there's also a strong argument that gluing improves overall integrity meaning that you may not need to repair it nearly as quickly.  It's a trade off either way, and some people will likely get burned by misfortune.

Yes, we agree here too.  Apple's recent approach involves tradeoffs, as most things do.  What I'm seeing though is there's a contingent led by a certain individual who is claiming that there are no benefits, ergo there are no trade-offs at all.  I suppose the real point I'm making is that there are two sides of the equation here.  I totally understand that lack of upgradeability and user serviceability is a disadvantage for some people.  But the current approach also clearly has several benefits.  I really don't see why those arguing the other side won't acknowledge that.  

Based in the comments, the benefits of a sealed / glued device was lightness and size.  That's the reason I mentioned the X1 Nano, which has both, and still simple to service.  I also read that it's about reliability, but I haven't seen any stats supporting that.  

You mentioned that the "current approach clearly has several benefits".  What are those benefits?

canukstorm said:

danvm said:

crowley said:

danvm said:

crowley said:

danvm said:

tmay said:

danvm said:

tmay said:

danvm said:

canukstorm said:

danvm said:

canukstorm said:

GeorgeBMac said:

sdw2001 said:

Wgkrueger said:

GeorgeBMac said:

seanj said:

GeorgeBMac said:

For all those defending the "Everything Glued together & soldered together" assembly of the MacBooks by saying "Nobody ever upgraded a computer", Andrew just called bull!

His biggest (only?) complaint about his M1 MacBook Air is that it can't meet his needs because it is frozen in time with what it came with when he bought it -- versus his MacPro which grew and developed with enhancements as his needs, wants and requirements grew.

Likewise, my 9 year old i7 Thinkpad runs perfectly well and meets all of my needs -- because it's been upgraded to a 500Gb SSD, 16Gb Ram and an internal harddrive used for ongoing, real time backups.  Without those cheap and very simple to install (5 minutes or less) upgrades the machine would have been scrap

Only a tiny percentage of people tinker with the computers, it’s a niche market that’s similar to those that add nitrous oxide to their cars...
Most people just want a computer they can do things with, rather than do things to, in other words a consumer product. With Apple they get that, which is why customer satisfaction is so high.

If you have a 9 year old Thinkpad then you’re probably either running XP (good luck browsing the Internet securely) or you’re running Linux. If it’s the latter then if you happy with a limited number of professional applications then that’s fine.

I forgot to mention that its running WIndows 10.  So, its security is a good as good as any Windows machine.   Admittedly that's a low bar. 

But the point of the post was NOT about lengetivity but to reiterate what Andew said:   His MacPro remained functional because it could be upgraded with additional RAM & Storage -- while his MacBook AIr could not meet his needs because it was all glued and soldered together and locked into its initial configuration when he bought it.

If it needed to be upgraded immediately then it can be returned to Apple. If his needs exceeded the capabilities of a maxed out machine then he couldn’t upgrade it anyway (thinking memory here) and he could return it to Apple. If he used it for a period of time and his use cases changed so they exceeded the machines capabilities, which I think was part of your original point, then it’s a case of longevity. 

...

The point?  Apple clearly looked at what its customers were actually doing, and found the benefits of hardwiring and gluing everything outweighed the negatives.  While I can see the other side, I agree.  I've had Macs since the Pismo PowerBook G3 (2000).   The number of issues I had with those machines (getting a new one every 3-4 years) was far, far higher than now.  The products are not as serviceable or upgradable.  But they also don't need to be.  

 

Perhaps the question is:   Who benefited?   i don't think it was the customer.   For them, in a laptop, soldered & glued together that was non-upgradeable offers no benefit.   Can it be made a half millimeter thinner by eliminating a socket?   Perhaps.  But, even if true, that is a pretty marginal benefit.

"For them, in a laptop, soldered & glued together that was non-upgradeable offers no benefit"

It offers a laptop that is lighter due it being thinner.  That may not be a benefit to you but it is benefit to many consumers.  So much so that Windows makers have started copying the MBA design in spades.  It isn't a surprise that ultrabooks like the MBA are the hottest selling segment of the laptop market.  And now with the M1 MBA, you get a laptop that's light, fast and runs cool & quiet.

The average consumer does not care about the same things that you or other IT folk care about.  What they care about are devices that are convenient, easy to use, fast, quiet, cool and have access to web and their favorite apps. Sure, there are some consumers who care about upgradeability but they're far from the majority.  This is the mass market.  And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against computers that are upgradeable but if that's what YOU are after then you should buy a device that allows you to do that.

Maybe you don't need to copy Apple to make devices thinner and lighter.  For example, the ThinkPad X1 Nano is a 2 pound notebook, smaller and lighter than any current Apple notebook, and it has a replaceable SSD and battery, among other parts.  


X1 Nano Gen 1 Hardware Maintenance Manual (lenovo.com)

And this not only benefits someone who later needs a larger SSD drive, but also makes possible to service the device onsite without special tools.  That could be a better design compared to Apple notebooks, where you have to send it via mail or take it to an Apple Store for service.  

Like I said in my previous post, if that's a design that works for you then more power to you.  The vast majority of average consumers using their device for home use is not goint to go through the trouble of opening up their laptop, upgrade the SSD & reinstall the OS.  They want to buy it and forget it.

Did you read my post?  It wasn't about upgradeability at all.  I pointed out the the X1 Nano showed that you don't need to glue or sold everything for a think / light device.  Second, I think that consumers could benefit from a device that's easy to service.  For example, if the logic board needs to be replaced, the user won't lose data since the SSD can be swapped to the new logic board.  Or after 3-4 years, the battery can be replaced extending the life of the notebook.  Is that really bad for consumers?

I am of the belief that consumers want the most reliable devices, vs ease of service, so consumers have a purchase choice, same as it ever was. For the record, the X1 Nano traded battery life for lightweight and serviceability, and given that Apple has better battery life, plus better performance based on its M1 silicon, I'm not in agreement with your argument.

One would think that the market will actually decide this, not any of our arguments, but here we are, arguing to little effect, one way or another.

Do you have proof that the X1 Nano is a less reliable device?  Most ThinkPads, including the X1 Nano, pass many durability tests.  And based on what I have seen from my customer ThinkPad, they have many advantages over my MBP, from a design and construction POV.  

Lenovo ThinkPad | Military-tested Rugged Laptops | Lenovo US

Second, I agree that the M1 is a better compared to the Intel processor the X1 Nano have.  But that wasn't my point.  What I'm saying is that Lenovo showed that it's possible to create a thin and light device, while keeping the device easy to service.  

Lenovo created a thin and light device by compromising battery life. The marketing value of ease of serviceability to the consumer is minimal if their device has a high level of reliability to begin with. It may be an advantage for Lenovo, but Apple has retail stores that do a modest level of service and are within a short drive  by the bulk of the U.S. population.

Which service paradigm is more valuable to the consumer?

That's the question.

The X1 Nano battery size is similar to the one in the MBA.  So any battery benefit the MBA has is because of the M1 chip.  BTW, what does battery life has to do with this?  

Also, from your post I could understand that consumers benefit outside the U.S. would be better with a non Apple device, since they have no easy access to an Apple Store for service, is that right?  So we could say that there is value for consumers outside of the U.S. for a device that's easy to service, right?

Apple Stores are not so uncommon outside of the USA, the main cities of the majority of developed counties have them, and most major cities in Australia, Canada and Western Europe.  If you're unlucky enough to be a way from one of them then you'll have to rely on third party or mail in repair I guess, which will vary by location.  Authorised third party repair shops should have access to most of the same parts as Apple, though will probably need to order in so may take longer.

 https://www.thebalancesmb.com/apple-retail-stores-global-locations-2892925

I know that there are Apple stores around the world, but that doesn't means everyone has easy access to them.  For example, Brazil only have two stores, Mexico only one, same as South Korea.  My point is that a device that's easy to service benefits business, but also consumers.  For example, if by accident I spill liquid in my MBP keyboard and live in country without an Apple Store, it will be an issue, since they are difficult to service.  Compare that to a ThinkPad, and you can see the difference.  Lenovo even has the service manual in the website so the user / technician can service the device.  Personally I don't see how this can be bad or negative for consumers.  

The majority of Apple's customers will be fairly local to an Apple Store though.  I'm not saying they don't care at all about customers in other places, but let's just say there's an element of proportionality at play.

And try not to spill liquid on your keyboard.  Even if you have a Lenovo you very much will not enjoy the experience.

I agree the most Apple customer are in the U.S. and make sense for them to have their stores here.  Still, my point is that there are cases were a device that's easy to service, as ThinkPad can be positive for consumers (even though ThinkPad is not a consumer brand).  For example the MBP 2017 have the keyboard glued to the keyboard.

Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall With the Macbook Pro Keyboard - iFixit

Do you really think it's a good idea?  Clearly not, specially with the issues we saw in the past years with keyboards and how expensive it's to replace.  Compare that to what the X1 Nano service manual show, where you can replace the keyboard and battery separately.  

And maybe you don't know, but ThinkPads have spill resistant keyboards, including the X1 Nano.  




Even if the keyboard or trackpad fails because of the spill, you can easily replace them. 

"I agree the most Apple customer are in the U.S"

When Apple announced their record-breaking March quarter financial results yesterday, it was mentioned that 67% of revenue occurred OUTSIDE of the USA. 

My post was related to PC / Mac's.  Does the 67% of revenue is from Macs? Don't think so, but I could be wrong.