And I'll discover the Zune is a small computer with vast array of apps and I'll be suitable educated?
I have no use for a product that merely plays music and videos and when I can do that and a great deal more with a single device. Others may feel differently, but the future clearly belongs to integration.
I know, you're not allowed to admit that.
I agree wholeheartedly...
The sole issue I have concerning your 'argument' is that you fail to recall that the Touch didn't always have an apps store, so I'm puzzled as to why you're so quick to assume that a more powerful/capable platform (ZUNE HD) won't have even higher-quality/more useful apps.
The iPod Touch has largely been unrivaled in the PMP-come-computer area for a couple of years now, but the truth is - This Is No Longer The Case, and it bodes well for the entire industry.
No. A search for "DaHarder Zune" turns up hundreds of hits... scattered over dozens of different sites. A couple of results bring up comments of yours from two or three years ago praising previous Zune versions.
You have every right to your opinions, I just have a morbid curiosity about the motivation that drives people like you to feel the need to evangelise in such a fashion.
Quote:
I guess one could counter by asking if it's your 'job' to go around stalking people on the internet?
Yes, one could. However this is an internet forum, I have been a member for a long time and i have every right to report spam and call out trolls and astroturfers (self assigned or not).
ON TOPIC. I actually agree that the new Zune HD is a strong device and, in the short turn, it really doesn't matter whether it is better than the iPod Touch or not. The most important thing is that it is better than the previous Zunes.
I am certain that you will be busy propagating the 'good news' when the first NPD figures are published. Zune will probably also have a good holiday quarter. However Microsoft is a little late to this game. The move of portable music and media to the cell phone started a long time ago. Way before even the iPhone appeared. The days of growth in the PMP market are over. Microsoft knows this and their future plans for Zune appear to be targeted more towards software and services over the 'three screens'.
Obviously as an evangelist you are going to accentuate the positive but even the plus features have major drawbacks.
Subscription music. In itself that's a good thing. However these services have really not been as successful as the music industry would like. And the reason is really simple. It doesn't matter how many millions of tracks you have access to. It doesn't matter how much time and energy you want to devote to new music discovery. The fact is that most people do not spend $180 a year on music. Check out Nielsen's stats. The average US music buyer spends closer to $40. Subscription services seem to be popular with people who would be spending at least $15 a month anyway. The record companies need people to spend MORE money, than previously, on music. That doesn't appear to have happened yet.
16:9 screen. Yes, great for movies. Not great for the web or for typing or indeed ANY other application that might eventually appear on the Zune.
Apparently the iPod touch is now "ungainly and inelegant" What you really mean is that the Zune is simply... smaller. With video apparently being one of it's strong points a smaller screen with less pixels is not always better. It's amusing that when the original brown Zune was launched, it's fans touted the slightly larger screen as better than the classic iPod's screen. Now apparently "smaller is better." That must explain the rush to buy smaller TV sets!
Lack of applications. In your world that's a good thing. Don't let distracting applications get in the way of what a PMP "should do". Meanwhile, in the real world, Apple is pushing their App store (and particularly games) as the main reason to buy a Touch. Meanwhile, in the real world, 160+ million PMPs are sold that include access to thousands of applications and also happen to be phones as well.
Microsoft's strategy in the portable music space has always been behind the curve. Originally it was purely based on selling their proprietary media codec and their DRM. DRM on music has gone, and now MP3 and AAC rule the roost. The original Zunes did nothing to upset the balance of power in this space, and despite offering a larger range and better machines the 2nd generation Zunes did equally poorly. The Zune HD is a great leap forward but, after three years, it's not the game changer than you think it is. The goal posts have moved!
If you were simply a Zune fan or even an anythingisbetterthaniPod advocate then I would probably think you were sincere. However your propensity to distort facts, the colourful language and your need to 'spread the word of Zune leads me to suspect that you have an agenda. If that's what floats your boat then... good for you. Just don't expect anyone on an Apple forum to take you seriously.
The sole issue I have concerning your 'argument' is that you fail to recall that the Touch didn't always have an apps store, so I'm puzzled as to why you're so quick to assume that a more powerful/capable platform (ZUNE HD) won't have even higher-quality/more useful apps.
The iPod Touch has largely been unrivaled in the PMP-come-computer area for a couple of years now, but the truth is - This Is No Longer The Case, and it bodes well for the entire industry.
A more "capable" platform shouldn't take 10 seconds to launch a calculator app or have fewer apps available than any iPhone OS device has ever shipped with. They are using a SoC design that has been promoted heavily and has a fancy name, but we haven't really seen its real world performance yet. It might have an edge in video, but its processing strength leaves much to be desired. All I'm hoping for from the Zune is for it to encourage Apple to give the latest iPhone and iPod Touch a 720p dock. They are both fully capable of outputting 720p video like the Zune. The Zunes OS isn't designed with apps in mind at all. Imagine trying to find 1 app out of 100 in the current setup (only 3-4 apps visible at once), I really don't think their goal is to become a mobile computing platform.
No. A search for "DaHarder Zune" turns up hundreds of hits... scattered over dozens of different sites. A couple of results bring up comments of yours from two or three years ago praising previous Zune versions.
Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?
Simply put, the OP's initial post is full of fallacies and misleading (lack of) information, and whether I enjoy using my multitude of Apple products or not (I do by the way), too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.
So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...
Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:
If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?
Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?
Simply put, the OP's initial post is full of fallacies and misleading (lack of) information, and whether I enjoy using my multitude of Apple products or not (I do by the way), too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.
So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...
Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:
If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?
Why would anyone need and/or want to own over 300 DAP/PMp units?
Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?
A Google search of "Daharder Zune" returns over 3000 results. I am curious about you... but not that curious.
Buying one portable media player a week for a number of years may be a symptom of some kind of compulsive disorder. This, combined with your need to bring your Zune message to a larger flock is beginning to make me worry about the state of your health. Seriously, have you talked to anyone about this?
Quote:
too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.
Yes, but sadly that's the internet for you. Countering one set of bias with another bias doesn't really get us anywhere does it?
Quote:
So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...
In light of your recent revelations about your shopping habits, I think "balanced" may be a particularly poor choice of word.
Quote:
Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:
If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?
Your question is naive in the extreme. Nearly every single article or blog post about the Zune, mentions the iPod Touch in the same breath. in the words of the bard... "It's the competition... stupid!"
A Google search of "Daharder Zune" returns over 3000 results. I am curious about you... but not that curious.
In light of your recent revelations about your shopping habits, I think "balanced" may be a particularly poor choice of word.
Judgmental... Much?
I guess in your quest to 'lash out' at any and all who offer perspectives incongruent with your own, you failed to reason that I might well be the associate editor/administrator of a gadget blog -
One that welcomes all products... from all manufacturers, including Apple.
Personally, as a longtime Apple product user, I find the attitudes expressed in this forum extremely disheartening, as they only serve to exacerbate the widely-held premise that Apple people are all manner of elitist expletives.
Hey guys, I was just surfing the net and I ended up making my way over here. I have been reading and skimming over the discussion in this thread, and there are some misconceptions about the Zune HD. First, I would like to say that I currently own a Zune HD and an iPhone. I have used the iPhone for music, but for the most part I used my Zune 80 for music (which I absolutely loved, by the way, better than both of my iPods, my Toshiba Gigabeat, and my Dell Jukebox) since the music playing function on the iPhone is terrible; almost an afterthought. I didn't use an iPod classic or anything like that because I found that the way the "squircle" control interacted with the UI was much more intuitive than the click wheel on the iPod. Sorry if you disagree, but this is my opinion. It ended up lasting longer than any other mp3 player I owned. The Zune software is vastly superior to iTunes. Seriously, even fanoys cannot deny this. iTunes is bloated, slow, and heavy. It was designed to simply play music, and now it does way more than that without any type of re-write. Anyone familiar with software engineering, this is a result of both feature creep and a lack of modifiability. Install the Zune software if you own a PC (don't think many of you have one ), and import your music. Then just give it a chance and listen to music on it for a few days. You will find it faster. A lot faster. And Smart DJ absolutely kills Genius. I am not saying that you will fall in love with the UI since some people prefer the file manager way of organizing things like iTunes (I used to be one), but there is no denying how much faster the Zune software is.
As for the Zune HD, comparing it to the iPod touch and iPhone, the ipod touch and iPhone are PDAs that can play media. The Zune HD is a PMP that can run apps. How anyone thinks Microsoft is following Apple in any way (whether that is playing catch-up or sauntering casually behind) is beyond me. Just turn the devices on, look at the home page of each device and tell me what the focus is. Apple has pretty much said that their device is a portable computer and Microsoft is saying that theirs is a PMP. Why the hell do you care? And it's interesting that Apple didn't put Tegra into the iPod Touch/iPhone since it is faster than the current GPU they are using.
Hey guys, I was just surfing the net and I ended up making my way over here. I have been reading and skimming over the discussion in this thread, and there are some misconceptions about the Zune HD. First, I would like to say that I currently own a Zune HD and an iPhone. I have used the iPhone for music, but for the most part I used my Zune 80 for music (which I absolutely loved, by the way, better than both of my iPods, my Toshiba Gigabeat, and my Dell Jukebox) since the music playing function on the iPhone is terrible; almost an afterthought. I didn't use an iPod classic or anything like that because I found that the way the "squircle" control interacted with the UI was much more intuitive than the click wheel on the iPod. Sorry if you disagree, but this is my opinion. It ended up lasting longer than any other mp3 player I owned. The Zune software is vastly superior to iTunes. Seriously, even fanoys cannot deny this. iTunes is bloated, slow, and heavy. It was designed to simply play music, and now it does way more than that without any type of re-write. Anyone familiar with software engineering, this is a result of both feature creep and a lack of modifiability. Install the Zune software if you own a PC (don't think many of you have one ), and import your music. Then just give it a chance and listen to music on it for a few days. You will find it faster. A lot faster. And Smart DJ absolutely kills Genius. I am not saying that you will fall in love with the UI since some people prefer the file manager way of organizing things like iTunes (I used to be one), but there is no denying how much faster the Zune software is.
As for the Zune HD, comparing it to the iPod touch and iPhone, the ipod touch and iPhone are PDAs that can play media. The Zune HD is a PMP that can run apps. How anyone thinks Microsoft is following Apple in any way (whether that is playing catch-up or sauntering casually behind) is beyond me. Just turn the devices on, look at the home page of each device and tell me what the focus is. Apple has pretty much said that their device is a portable computer and Microsoft is saying that theirs is a PMP. Why the hell do you care? And it's interesting that Apple didn't put Tegra into the iPod Touch/iPhone since it is faster than the current GPU they are using.
A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.
Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.
A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.
Are you talking about the one in the new iPhone/iPod Touch? I have the iPhone 3G, and the GPU and CPU in that will constantly get hung up on the most menial UI tasks. Using simple things such as touching a button, and expecting there to be some sort of immediate visual feedback turns into 1-5 second delays. I don't have this problem with the Zune HD. Then again, I don't have thee capability of more, but updated iPhone/iPod Touch, so this could very well be fixed.
Quote:
Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.
Well for the office suites, Works is the cheap one that nobody uses, while Office is very robust and advanced. For mobile platforms, Zune is a PMP first and foremost. Yes it has the capability of more, but so does any computing device that is designated a specific task. That said, Microsoft developed the Zune HD software off of Windows CE, the same OS they are developing Windows Mobile 7. Microsoft has said that the development of the Zune HD is also a learning experience for stuff they are including in Windows Mobile 7. If you are familiar with Project Pink, it is Microsoft's push for a standardization of hadware across all Windows Mobile 7 devices. The rumored specifications include Tegra, a similar CPU spec, and capacitive touchscreen OLED display. Given Microsoft entering the beginning stages of making Zune their music label (I predict they will phase out WMP in the next edition of Windows and Zune will be the bundled software), and the fact that they are integrating it with Xbox and Windows Home Server, it would not surprise me to see Zune and Windows Mobile 7 become very closely tied to each other. My prediction is that Microsoft will open up the SDK for Zune and Windows Mobile 7, which will be one in the same, and all apps on Windows Mobile 7 can be played on Zune HD and vice versa. This will eliminate their need to create a PDA-type device since Windows Mobile 7 will be distributed through all carriers. Apple was pretty much forced to release the iPod Touch (from a business perspective) when they saw that the people on other carriers that couldn't switch over would still pay for something like the iPhone without the phone. Microsoft won't do this because Windows Mobile 7 integrates with Enterprise and other business applications. By the way things look, people actually know about the Zune HD. Nobody knew about the Zune. If Microsoft markets the Zune HD, Windows Mobile 7, and Windows/Xbox integration well then Apple has a serious problem on their hands.
As for Windows Mobile 6.5, I look at it as an update to 6. And Windows Mobile 7 is the next version.
This must be about the fourth time I've post this, but it keeps coming up:
Quote:
Q: Will it open up for third-party app developers?
A: It's hard to say right now. If you look around the company at other places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to the top. They have devices which are always connected, which make applications like maps really cool and important.
On a sometimes-connected device, what people are using them for are games. So what we didn't want to do was build two parallel app store experiences that didn't work together.
Right now our product roadmaps didn't line up perfectly for us to snap to what they're doing or vice versa. That being said, we know people want things like this on their devices so we're going to build them ourselves, they're going to be super high-quality, and they're going to be free.
Down the road if there's a way we can work with Windows Mobile or another group inside the company that's building an app store and take advantage of that, that's something we'll look into.
I know it's tempting to think MS has a plan here, but it sure doesn't sound like it.
And I strongly disagree that there's some magic way to merge what's happening on the Zune HD with a full featured palmtop computer of the sort that I would have to assume MS intends with WinMo 7, assuming they intend to remain in any way competitive.
It would be like expecting MS to have "learned" from the Xbox in making Win7, and that they will presently merge the two and everybody's Xboxes will abruptly become full on computers. Because, you know, the hardware is totally underutilized and capable of so much more.
The entire Zune interface is designed to move around lists of media in as entertaining manner as possible. That is not the basis for general purpose computing device OS.
At most, WinMo 7 might borrow some typographic ideas and a few graphic conventions from the HD. Just because hardware "can" do something has no bearing on MIcrosoft's Byzantine product development scheme.
Are you talking about the one in the new iPhone/iPod Touch? I have the iPhone 3G, and the GPU and CPU in that will constantly get hung up on the most menial UI tasks. Using simple things such as touching a button, and expecting there to be some sort of immediate visual feedback turns into 1-5 second delays. I don't have this problem with the Zune HD. Then again, I don't have thee capability of more, but updated iPhone/iPod Touch, so this could very well be fixed.
Yes I'm talking about the new ones. They have been shown to be able to play some 1080p video, although it was far from perfect. 720p on the other hand should be very doable. Apple talked a lot about the performance gains of these new models and tests have shown them to be true.
Quote:
Well for the office suites, Works is the cheap one that nobody uses, while Office is very robust and advanced. For mobile platforms, Zune is a PMP first and foremost. Yes it has the capability of more, but so does any computing device that is designated a specific task. That said, Microsoft developed the Zune HD software off of Windows CE, the same OS they are developing Windows Mobile 7. Microsoft has said that the development of the Zune HD is also a learning experience for stuff they are including in Windows Mobile 7. If you are familiar with Project Pink, it is Microsoft's push for a standardization of hadware across all Windows Mobile 7 devices. The rumored specifications include Tegra, a similar CPU spec, and capacitive touchscreen OLED display. Given Microsoft entering the beginning stages of making Zune their music label (I predict they will phase out WMP in the next edition of Windows and Zune will be the bundled software), and the fact that they are integrating it with Xbox and Windows Home Server, it would not surprise me to see Zune and Windows Mobile 7 become very closely tied to each other. My prediction is that Microsoft will open up the SDK for Zune and Windows Mobile 7, which will be one in the same, and all apps on Windows Mobile 7 can be played on Zune HD and vice versa. This will eliminate their need to create a PDA-type device since Windows Mobile 7 will be distributed through all carriers. Apple was pretty much forced to release the iPod Touch (from a business perspective) when they saw that the people on other carriers that couldn't switch over would still pay for something like the iPhone without the phone. Microsoft won't do this because Windows Mobile 7 integrates with Enterprise and other business applications. By the way things look, people actually know about the Zune HD. Nobody knew about the Zune. If Microsoft markets the Zune HD, Windows Mobile 7, and Windows/Xbox integration well then Apple has a serious problem on their hands.
Thanks for the information, but it looks like Microsoft is at least a couple years away from the level of device convergence Apple has now. What will Apple do in that same timeframe?
Quote:
As for Windows Mobile 6.5, I look at it as an update to 6. And Windows Mobile 7 is the next version.
Microsoft has stated that they are going to push forward with two mobile operating systems 6.5 for the low end stuff and 7.0 for the high end stuff. Otherwise why announce the successor before the predeccesor is released?
This must be about the fourth time I've post this, but it keeps coming up:
I know it's tempting to think MS has a plan here, but it sure doesn't sound like it.
And I strongly disagree that there's some magic way to merge what's happening on the Zune HD with a full featured palmtop computer of the sort that I would have to assume MS intends with WinMo 7, assuming they intend to remain in any way competitive.
It would be like expecting MS to have "learned" from the Xbox in making Win7, and that they will presently merge the two and everybody's Xboxes will abruptly become full on computers. Because, you know, the hardware is totally underutilized and capable of so much more.
The entire Zune interface is designed to move around lists of media in as entertaining manner as possible. That is not the basis for general purpose computing device OS.
At most, WinMo 7 might borrow some typographic ideas and a few graphic conventions from the HD. Just because hardware "can" do something has no bearing on MIcrosoft's Byzantine product development scheme.
Yes, he said it's not something they are going to do now, but he is talking about a compatibility with something that is a phone and something that isn't a phone. They are both based off of the same kernel and they are both going to use the same architectures. That means that, right now, apps may not be compatible with each due to libraries not being the same for each device, but that doesn't rule out the possibility for them to put the libraries on the Zune HD and vice versa for Windows Mobile. Notice that he didn't rule it out. This is typically what Microsoft does before they actually officially announce something, which means it is in the works. It is obviously not a top priority right now, but it would be foolish to say that they weren't working on it at all. It is very doable to have Windows Mobile and Zune HD apps compatible with each other.
Also I am not claiming that the UI for WinMo 7 will look the same or even similar to the Zune HD. That said, you would have to be blind if you think that they aren't going to integrate these devices more than just adding a music player to WinMo 7.
Thanks for the information, but it looks like Microsoft is at least a couple years away from the level of device convergence Apple has now. What will Apple do in that same timeframe?
Well Microsoft is branding everything media as Zune. This means WMP will be replaced with the Zune software, the video marketplace on the Xbox 360 is going to be Zune, Windows Media Center will be Zune, media capabilities of Windows Mobile devices will be Zune...and Microsoft is opening this up to hardware manufacturers who are embracing this. Apple TV is kind of like Windows Media Center, but if Media Center Extenders are pushed by Microsoft and TV tuners get easier to use and people discover that they can have a free DVR, Apply could be on their way out the door. And all of this software is good. It's really good. Do not pretend that it isn't. Despite popular belief, Microsoft is very committed to quality software. It doesn't always happen because they don't always control the hardware that their software interacts with, but they do care. They know that it is the best way to keep customers.
The only way Apple will pull ahead of Microsoft is to catch up to what Microsoft has and make it available on Windows. And they need to make the software good. Anyone who has used iTunes on Windows will agree that so far they have failed miserably at making their software on Windows good. Apple has to embrace everything about Windows and make everything completely compatible with Windows.
A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.
Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.
I agree that eventually the PMP market will be absorbed by mobile computers. However, I think that mobile platforms still have at least another few generations to go before they can really absorb the market. I would say that nothing is ahead of the iPhone/iTouch when it comes to mobile platforms, and they are still quite a ways away from being comparable to a laptop in your pocket. So much so that at this point the ZuneHD, which is a PMP first, is at least capable of being as powerful as the iPod Touch. The only difference is the amount of software available. Advances in hardware capabilities will be the driving force behind mobile computing, and as it stands, we just aren't there yet. We're still kind of in the MP3 player on steroids stage.
Despite my experience with Vista I don't think the people at Microsoft are dummies. It seems to me like they are at least trying to incorporate the Zune into the Xbox360. I don't know what their overall plan is, I would assume that they understand that eventually everyone is going to want a box in their pocket that does everything. I think it is clear that the ZuneHD is a stepping stone on the media side of the river towards that. I would say much in the same way that the iTouch was a stepping stone for the iPhone.
What is also clear is that right now there is a large market for people who want devices that can play music as well as entertain them with mini-games while they sit on the bus. The ZuneHD has actually been selling quite well, and I can certainly forsee the ZuneHD competing in that marketplace. Of course, there are still plenty of ways that Microsoft could screw the pooch.
Comments
And I'll discover the Zune is a small computer with vast array of apps and I'll be suitable educated?
I have no use for a product that merely plays music and videos and when I can do that and a great deal more with a single device. Others may feel differently, but the future clearly belongs to integration.
I know, you're not allowed to admit that.
I agree wholeheartedly...
The sole issue I have concerning your 'argument' is that you fail to recall that the Touch didn't always have an apps store, so I'm puzzled as to why you're so quick to assume that a more powerful/capable platform (ZUNE HD) won't have even higher-quality/more useful apps.
The iPod Touch has largely been unrivaled in the PMP-come-computer area for a couple of years now, but the truth is - This Is No Longer The Case, and it bodes well for the entire industry.
Now you're just reposting MS handouts. You must try harder.
You're quite the unreasonable one, aren't you?
Hint: The prices simply are what they are - DUH!
The rest are my words, based on my experiences with both the ZUNE Marketplace (sadly something you appear to know nothing about) and iTunes.
Over-Exaggerate... Much?
No. A search for "DaHarder Zune" turns up hundreds of hits... scattered over dozens of different sites. A couple of results bring up comments of yours from two or three years ago praising previous Zune versions.
You have every right to your opinions, I just have a morbid curiosity about the motivation that drives people like you to feel the need to evangelise in such a fashion.
I guess one could counter by asking if it's your 'job' to go around stalking people on the internet?
Yes, one could. However this is an internet forum, I have been a member for a long time and i have every right to report spam and call out trolls and astroturfers (self assigned or not).
ON TOPIC. I actually agree that the new Zune HD is a strong device and, in the short turn, it really doesn't matter whether it is better than the iPod Touch or not. The most important thing is that it is better than the previous Zunes.
I am certain that you will be busy propagating the 'good news' when the first NPD figures are published. Zune will probably also have a good holiday quarter. However Microsoft is a little late to this game. The move of portable music and media to the cell phone started a long time ago. Way before even the iPhone appeared. The days of growth in the PMP market are over. Microsoft knows this and their future plans for Zune appear to be targeted more towards software and services over the 'three screens'.
Obviously as an evangelist you are going to accentuate the positive but even the plus features have major drawbacks.
Subscription music. In itself that's a good thing. However these services have really not been as successful as the music industry would like. And the reason is really simple. It doesn't matter how many millions of tracks you have access to. It doesn't matter how much time and energy you want to devote to new music discovery. The fact is that most people do not spend $180 a year on music. Check out Nielsen's stats. The average US music buyer spends closer to $40. Subscription services seem to be popular with people who would be spending at least $15 a month anyway. The record companies need people to spend MORE money, than previously, on music. That doesn't appear to have happened yet.
16:9 screen. Yes, great for movies. Not great for the web or for typing or indeed ANY other application that might eventually appear on the Zune.
Apparently the iPod touch is now "ungainly and inelegant" What you really mean is that the Zune is simply... smaller. With video apparently being one of it's strong points a smaller screen with less pixels is not always better. It's amusing that when the original brown Zune was launched, it's fans touted the slightly larger screen as better than the classic iPod's screen. Now apparently "smaller is better." That must explain the rush to buy smaller TV sets!
Lack of applications. In your world that's a good thing. Don't let distracting applications get in the way of what a PMP "should do". Meanwhile, in the real world, Apple is pushing their App store (and particularly games) as the main reason to buy a Touch. Meanwhile, in the real world, 160+ million PMPs are sold that include access to thousands of applications and also happen to be phones as well.
Microsoft's strategy in the portable music space has always been behind the curve. Originally it was purely based on selling their proprietary media codec and their DRM. DRM on music has gone, and now MP3 and AAC rule the roost. The original Zunes did nothing to upset the balance of power in this space, and despite offering a larger range and better machines the 2nd generation Zunes did equally poorly. The Zune HD is a great leap forward but, after three years, it's not the game changer than you think it is. The goal posts have moved!
If you were simply a Zune fan or even an anythingisbetterthaniPod advocate then I would probably think you were sincere. However your propensity to distort facts, the colourful language and your need to 'spread the word of Zune leads me to suspect that you have an agenda. If that's what floats your boat then... good for you. Just don't expect anyone on an Apple forum to take you seriously.
I agree wholeheartedly...
The sole issue I have concerning your 'argument' is that you fail to recall that the Touch didn't always have an apps store, so I'm puzzled as to why you're so quick to assume that a more powerful/capable platform (ZUNE HD) won't have even higher-quality/more useful apps.
The iPod Touch has largely been unrivaled in the PMP-come-computer area for a couple of years now, but the truth is - This Is No Longer The Case, and it bodes well for the entire industry.
A more "capable" platform shouldn't take 10 seconds to launch a calculator app or have fewer apps available than any iPhone OS device has ever shipped with. They are using a SoC design that has been promoted heavily and has a fancy name, but we haven't really seen its real world performance yet. It might have an edge in video, but its processing strength leaves much to be desired. All I'm hoping for from the Zune is for it to encourage Apple to give the latest iPhone and iPod Touch a 720p dock. They are both fully capable of outputting 720p video like the Zune. The Zunes OS isn't designed with apps in mind at all. Imagine trying to find 1 app out of 100 in the current setup (only 3-4 apps visible at once), I really don't think their goal is to become a mobile computing platform.
No. A search for "DaHarder Zune" turns up hundreds of hits... scattered over dozens of different sites. A couple of results bring up comments of yours from two or three years ago praising previous Zune versions.
Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?
Simply put, the OP's initial post is full of fallacies and misleading (lack of) information, and whether I enjoy using my multitude of Apple products or not (I do by the way), too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.
So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...
Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:
If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?
Um, I just picked up the zune HD at bestBuy and the iPod touch is far suerior. End of story.
I agree...
As long as one is not concerned with excellent-quality core media player functions of audio/video/radio reproduction.
If what one desires is a Jack of All Trades/Master On None type device then the iPod Touch is the better choice (at this point).
Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?
Simply put, the OP's initial post is full of fallacies and misleading (lack of) information, and whether I enjoy using my multitude of Apple products or not (I do by the way), too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.
So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...
Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:
If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?
Why would anyone need and/or want to own over 300 DAP/PMp units?
Why would anyone need and/or want to own over 300 DAP/PMp units?
Given both the wherewithal and resources one does what/as one pleases... ;-)
Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?
A Google search of "Daharder Zune" returns over 3000 results. I am curious about you... but not that curious.
Buying one portable media player a week for a number of years may be a symptom of some kind of compulsive disorder. This, combined with your need to bring your Zune message to a larger flock is beginning to make me worry about the state of your health. Seriously, have you talked to anyone about this?
too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.
Yes, but sadly that's the internet for you. Countering one set of bias with another bias doesn't really get us anywhere does it?
So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...
In light of your recent revelations about your shopping habits, I think "balanced" may be a particularly poor choice of word.
Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:
If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?
Your question is naive in the extreme. Nearly every single article or blog post about the Zune, mentions the iPod Touch in the same breath. in the words of the bard... "It's the competition... stupid!"
A Google search of "Daharder Zune" returns over 3000 results. I am curious about you... but not that curious.
In light of your recent revelations about your shopping habits, I think "balanced" may be a particularly poor choice of word.
Judgmental... Much?
I guess in your quest to 'lash out' at any and all who offer perspectives incongruent with your own, you failed to reason that I might well be the associate editor/administrator of a gadget blog -
One that welcomes all products... from all manufacturers, including Apple.
Personally, as a longtime Apple product user, I find the attitudes expressed in this forum extremely disheartening, as they only serve to exacerbate the widely-held premise that Apple people are all manner of elitist expletives.
As for the Zune HD, comparing it to the iPod touch and iPhone, the ipod touch and iPhone are PDAs that can play media. The Zune HD is a PMP that can run apps. How anyone thinks Microsoft is following Apple in any way (whether that is playing catch-up or sauntering casually behind) is beyond me. Just turn the devices on, look at the home page of each device and tell me what the focus is. Apple has pretty much said that their device is a portable computer and Microsoft is saying that theirs is a PMP. Why the hell do you care? And it's interesting that Apple didn't put Tegra into the iPod Touch/iPhone since it is faster than the current GPU they are using.
Hey guys, I was just surfing the net and I ended up making my way over here. I have been reading and skimming over the discussion in this thread, and there are some misconceptions about the Zune HD. First, I would like to say that I currently own a Zune HD and an iPhone. I have used the iPhone for music, but for the most part I used my Zune 80 for music (which I absolutely loved, by the way, better than both of my iPods, my Toshiba Gigabeat, and my Dell Jukebox) since the music playing function on the iPhone is terrible; almost an afterthought. I didn't use an iPod classic or anything like that because I found that the way the "squircle" control interacted with the UI was much more intuitive than the click wheel on the iPod. Sorry if you disagree, but this is my opinion. It ended up lasting longer than any other mp3 player I owned. The Zune software is vastly superior to iTunes. Seriously, even fanoys cannot deny this. iTunes is bloated, slow, and heavy. It was designed to simply play music, and now it does way more than that without any type of re-write. Anyone familiar with software engineering, this is a result of both feature creep and a lack of modifiability. Install the Zune software if you own a PC (don't think many of you have one
As for the Zune HD, comparing it to the iPod touch and iPhone, the ipod touch and iPhone are PDAs that can play media. The Zune HD is a PMP that can run apps. How anyone thinks Microsoft is following Apple in any way (whether that is playing catch-up or sauntering casually behind) is beyond me. Just turn the devices on, look at the home page of each device and tell me what the focus is. Apple has pretty much said that their device is a portable computer and Microsoft is saying that theirs is a PMP. Why the hell do you care? And it's interesting that Apple didn't put Tegra into the iPod Touch/iPhone since it is faster than the current GPU they are using.
A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.
Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.
A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.
Are you talking about the one in the new iPhone/iPod Touch? I have the iPhone 3G, and the GPU and CPU in that will constantly get hung up on the most menial UI tasks. Using simple things such as touching a button, and expecting there to be some sort of immediate visual feedback turns into 1-5 second delays. I don't have this problem with the Zune HD. Then again, I don't have thee capability of more, but updated iPhone/iPod Touch, so this could very well be fixed.
Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.
Well for the office suites, Works is the cheap one that nobody uses, while Office is very robust and advanced. For mobile platforms, Zune is a PMP first and foremost. Yes it has the capability of more, but so does any computing device that is designated a specific task. That said, Microsoft developed the Zune HD software off of Windows CE, the same OS they are developing Windows Mobile 7. Microsoft has said that the development of the Zune HD is also a learning experience for stuff they are including in Windows Mobile 7. If you are familiar with Project Pink, it is Microsoft's push for a standardization of hadware across all Windows Mobile 7 devices. The rumored specifications include Tegra, a similar CPU spec, and capacitive touchscreen OLED display. Given Microsoft entering the beginning stages of making Zune their music label (I predict they will phase out WMP in the next edition of Windows and Zune will be the bundled software), and the fact that they are integrating it with Xbox and Windows Home Server, it would not surprise me to see Zune and Windows Mobile 7 become very closely tied to each other. My prediction is that Microsoft will open up the SDK for Zune and Windows Mobile 7, which will be one in the same, and all apps on Windows Mobile 7 can be played on Zune HD and vice versa. This will eliminate their need to create a PDA-type device since Windows Mobile 7 will be distributed through all carriers. Apple was pretty much forced to release the iPod Touch (from a business perspective) when they saw that the people on other carriers that couldn't switch over would still pay for something like the iPhone without the phone. Microsoft won't do this because Windows Mobile 7 integrates with Enterprise and other business applications. By the way things look, people actually know about the Zune HD. Nobody knew about the Zune. If Microsoft markets the Zune HD, Windows Mobile 7, and Windows/Xbox integration well then Apple has a serious problem on their hands.
As for Windows Mobile 6.5, I look at it as an update to 6. And Windows Mobile 7 is the next version.
Q: Will it open up for third-party app developers?
A: It's hard to say right now. If you look around the company at other places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to the top. They have devices which are always connected, which make applications like maps really cool and important.
On a sometimes-connected device, what people are using them for are games. So what we didn't want to do was build two parallel app store experiences that didn't work together.
Right now our product roadmaps didn't line up perfectly for us to snap to what they're doing or vice versa. That being said, we know people want things like this on their devices so we're going to build them ourselves, they're going to be super high-quality, and they're going to be free.
Down the road if there's a way we can work with Windows Mobile or another group inside the company that's building an app store and take advantage of that, that's something we'll look into.
I know it's tempting to think MS has a plan here, but it sure doesn't sound like it.
And I strongly disagree that there's some magic way to merge what's happening on the Zune HD with a full featured palmtop computer of the sort that I would have to assume MS intends with WinMo 7, assuming they intend to remain in any way competitive.
It would be like expecting MS to have "learned" from the Xbox in making Win7, and that they will presently merge the two and everybody's Xboxes will abruptly become full on computers. Because, you know, the hardware is totally underutilized and capable of so much more.
The entire Zune interface is designed to move around lists of media in as entertaining manner as possible. That is not the basis for general purpose computing device OS.
At most, WinMo 7 might borrow some typographic ideas and a few graphic conventions from the HD. Just because hardware "can" do something has no bearing on MIcrosoft's Byzantine product development scheme.
Are you talking about the one in the new iPhone/iPod Touch? I have the iPhone 3G, and the GPU and CPU in that will constantly get hung up on the most menial UI tasks. Using simple things such as touching a button, and expecting there to be some sort of immediate visual feedback turns into 1-5 second delays. I don't have this problem with the Zune HD. Then again, I don't have thee capability of more, but updated iPhone/iPod Touch, so this could very well be fixed.
Yes I'm talking about the new ones. They have been shown to be able to play some 1080p video, although it was far from perfect. 720p on the other hand should be very doable. Apple talked a lot about the performance gains of these new models and tests have shown them to be true.
Well for the office suites, Works is the cheap one that nobody uses, while Office is very robust and advanced. For mobile platforms, Zune is a PMP first and foremost. Yes it has the capability of more, but so does any computing device that is designated a specific task. That said, Microsoft developed the Zune HD software off of Windows CE, the same OS they are developing Windows Mobile 7. Microsoft has said that the development of the Zune HD is also a learning experience for stuff they are including in Windows Mobile 7. If you are familiar with Project Pink, it is Microsoft's push for a standardization of hadware across all Windows Mobile 7 devices. The rumored specifications include Tegra, a similar CPU spec, and capacitive touchscreen OLED display. Given Microsoft entering the beginning stages of making Zune their music label (I predict they will phase out WMP in the next edition of Windows and Zune will be the bundled software), and the fact that they are integrating it with Xbox and Windows Home Server, it would not surprise me to see Zune and Windows Mobile 7 become very closely tied to each other. My prediction is that Microsoft will open up the SDK for Zune and Windows Mobile 7, which will be one in the same, and all apps on Windows Mobile 7 can be played on Zune HD and vice versa. This will eliminate their need to create a PDA-type device since Windows Mobile 7 will be distributed through all carriers. Apple was pretty much forced to release the iPod Touch (from a business perspective) when they saw that the people on other carriers that couldn't switch over would still pay for something like the iPhone without the phone. Microsoft won't do this because Windows Mobile 7 integrates with Enterprise and other business applications. By the way things look, people actually know about the Zune HD. Nobody knew about the Zune. If Microsoft markets the Zune HD, Windows Mobile 7, and Windows/Xbox integration well then Apple has a serious problem on their hands.
Thanks for the information, but it looks like Microsoft is at least a couple years away from the level of device convergence Apple has now. What will Apple do in that same timeframe?
As for Windows Mobile 6.5, I look at it as an update to 6. And Windows Mobile 7 is the next version.
Microsoft has stated that they are going to push forward with two mobile operating systems 6.5 for the low end stuff and 7.0 for the high end stuff. Otherwise why announce the successor before the predeccesor is released?
This must be about the fourth time I've post this, but it keeps coming up:
I know it's tempting to think MS has a plan here, but it sure doesn't sound like it.
And I strongly disagree that there's some magic way to merge what's happening on the Zune HD with a full featured palmtop computer of the sort that I would have to assume MS intends with WinMo 7, assuming they intend to remain in any way competitive.
It would be like expecting MS to have "learned" from the Xbox in making Win7, and that they will presently merge the two and everybody's Xboxes will abruptly become full on computers. Because, you know, the hardware is totally underutilized and capable of so much more.
The entire Zune interface is designed to move around lists of media in as entertaining manner as possible. That is not the basis for general purpose computing device OS.
At most, WinMo 7 might borrow some typographic ideas and a few graphic conventions from the HD. Just because hardware "can" do something has no bearing on MIcrosoft's Byzantine product development scheme.
Yes, he said it's not something they are going to do now, but he is talking about a compatibility with something that is a phone and something that isn't a phone. They are both based off of the same kernel and they are both going to use the same architectures. That means that, right now, apps may not be compatible with each due to libraries not being the same for each device, but that doesn't rule out the possibility for them to put the libraries on the Zune HD and vice versa for Windows Mobile. Notice that he didn't rule it out. This is typically what Microsoft does before they actually officially announce something, which means it is in the works. It is obviously not a top priority right now, but it would be foolish to say that they weren't working on it at all. It is very doable to have Windows Mobile and Zune HD apps compatible with each other.
Also I am not claiming that the UI for WinMo 7 will look the same or even similar to the Zune HD. That said, you would have to be blind if you think that they aren't going to integrate these devices more than just adding a music player to WinMo 7.
Thanks for the information, but it looks like Microsoft is at least a couple years away from the level of device convergence Apple has now. What will Apple do in that same timeframe?
Well Microsoft is branding everything media as Zune. This means WMP will be replaced with the Zune software, the video marketplace on the Xbox 360 is going to be Zune, Windows Media Center will be Zune, media capabilities of Windows Mobile devices will be Zune...and Microsoft is opening this up to hardware manufacturers who are embracing this. Apple TV is kind of like Windows Media Center, but if Media Center Extenders are pushed by Microsoft and TV tuners get easier to use and people discover that they can have a free DVR, Apply could be on their way out the door. And all of this software is good. It's really good. Do not pretend that it isn't. Despite popular belief, Microsoft is very committed to quality software. It doesn't always happen because they don't always control the hardware that their software interacts with, but they do care. They know that it is the best way to keep customers.
The only way Apple will pull ahead of Microsoft is to catch up to what Microsoft has and make it available on Windows. And they need to make the software good. Anyone who has used iTunes on Windows will agree that so far they have failed miserably at making their software on Windows good. Apple has to embrace everything about Windows and make everything completely compatible with Windows.
A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.
Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.
I agree that eventually the PMP market will be absorbed by mobile computers. However, I think that mobile platforms still have at least another few generations to go before they can really absorb the market. I would say that nothing is ahead of the iPhone/iTouch when it comes to mobile platforms, and they are still quite a ways away from being comparable to a laptop in your pocket. So much so that at this point the ZuneHD, which is a PMP first, is at least capable of being as powerful as the iPod Touch. The only difference is the amount of software available. Advances in hardware capabilities will be the driving force behind mobile computing, and as it stands, we just aren't there yet. We're still kind of in the MP3 player on steroids stage.
Despite my experience with Vista I don't think the people at Microsoft are dummies. It seems to me like they are at least trying to incorporate the Zune into the Xbox360. I don't know what their overall plan is, I would assume that they understand that eventually everyone is going to want a box in their pocket that does everything. I think it is clear that the ZuneHD is a stepping stone on the media side of the river towards that. I would say much in the same way that the iTouch was a stepping stone for the iPhone.
What is also clear is that right now there is a large market for people who want devices that can play music as well as entertain them with mini-games while they sit on the bus. The ZuneHD has actually been selling quite well, and I can certainly forsee the ZuneHD competing in that marketplace. Of course, there are still plenty of ways that Microsoft could screw the pooch.