Hey, thanks Quadra... interesting reads, and it was encouraging to see that the sunlight problem should hopefully be greatly diminished as the technology evolves to be brighter and to better compensate overall (which I believe AI did in fact suggest as well, if memory serves). But I'm still left wondering why I haven't seen any mention of this in ZuneHD reviews. If the problem with the Zune's screen was as drastic and dramatic as AI depicted it to be, surely at least ONE of the reviews would have brought up the topic. Does anyone know of any reviewer who did?
If not, I come back to my original problem with that AI "review" a couple days ago, which is that if the ZuneHD performs just fine outdoors or in bright lighting, then AI was extremely misleading, and was misinforming it's readers. And in my opinion, that's the kind of thing that should be acknowledged and corrected.
Hey, thanks Quadra... interesting reads, and it was encouraging to see that the sunlight problem should hopefully be greatly diminished as the technology evolves to be brighter and to better compensate overall (which I believe AI did in fact suggest as well, if memory serves). But I'm still left wondering why I haven't seen any mention of this in ZuneHD reviews. If the problem with the Zune's screen was as drastic and dramatic as AI depicted it to be, surely at least ONE of the reviews would have brought up the topic. Does anyone know of any reviewer who did?
If not, I come back to my original problem with that AI "review" a couple days ago, which is that if the ZuneHD performs just fine outdoors or in bright lighting, then AI was extremely misleading, and was misinforming it's readers. And in my opinion, that's the kind of thing that should be acknowledged and corrected.
Also of concern with OLED screens is visibility outdoors, particularly in sunlight. I conducted a couple of brief, unscientific tests. I went outside and stood in the sunlight. (And surprisingly didn't burst into flame.) At the medium setting, the Zune HD's screen was all but washed out; I could still slightly make out the iPod Touch's screen. Cranked the Zune HD's display to the "high" setting and they were about equal in the sunlight.
However, it's not a perfect win for OLED: The Zune HD's screen is extremely reflective, making it difficult to read in sunlight, while the iPod Touch's LCD was quite easy to read in the same conditions.
Part of this difference is due to technology and part of this is due to UI. The iPod touch uses black text on white for music and video browsing, while the Zune HD is reversed. The Zune HD's black background acts as a mirror, making it difficult to see anything but your own annoyed face.
There is one minor gripe though... and you probably can see this one coming. OLED screens aren't known for their performance in direct sunlight, and the Zune HD doesn't hugely improve on that point -- the image below says it all. Just pretend it's Dracula or something.
The OLED screen is superb, with one caveat: it suffers under direct sunlight. Launch day turned out to be a scorcher, with unhindered sunlight. I started off in the launch tent, but I asked permission to take the player outside to test it in the sun. The demo lady obliged and followed me out, where the screen washed out under the sun. With no transflective property, it’s going to be pretty hard to use the device in those conditions. You can still see the screen if you try real hard, or more realistically, shield it with one hand.
So . . . the Zune HD shouldn't be compared to the iPod Touch, even though MS (and everyone) clearly positioned it as a competitor to it?
Then what exactly is the Zune HD competing against? Or is it going to create its very own, unique segment of the handheld market?
So we now realize how behind MS is in the game, and three years too late, so let's just downgrade epxectations and shift gears, and re-categorize the Zune HD so it looks better. Hey no problem, sounds like an MS plan to me! Hey, if we put the Zune HD up against the obsolescent iPod Classic, then we've got a winner for sure!
It is competing against things like the Samsung P3. For lack of a better word, I will call them feature PMPs (to contrast with feature phones). They focus on playing music and videos, but can do other things as well, but they are not a mobile computing platform. If the Zune were a phone, it would be in a neck and neck battle with the Samsung Instinct. If that sounds ridiculous, just remember that the Samsung InstinctHD has HD video out.
Hey, thanks Quadra... interesting reads, and it was encouraging to see that the sunlight problem should hopefully be greatly diminished as the technology evolves to be brighter and to better compensate overall (which I believe AI did in fact suggest as well, if memory serves). But I'm still left wondering why I haven't seen any mention of this in ZuneHD reviews. If the problem with the Zune's screen was as drastic and dramatic as AI depicted it to be, surely at least ONE of the reviews would have brought up the topic. Does anyone know of any reviewer who did?
If not, I come back to my original problem with that AI "review" a couple days ago, which is that if the ZuneHD performs just fine outdoors or in bright lighting, then AI was extremely misleading, and was misinforming it's readers. And in my opinion, that's the kind of thing that should be acknowledged and corrected.
Okay since many of you said the first post snippets weren't smearing the Zune HD and also since Appleinsider likes to talk about other non-Apple products from time to time, I offer another review(without the editing) to the fair discussion:
It is competing against things like the Samsung P3. For lack of a better word, I will call them feature PMPs (to contrast with feature phones). They focus on playing music and videos, but can do other things as well, but they are not a mobile computing platform. If the Zune were a phone, it would be in a neck and neck battle with the Samsung Instinct. If that sounds ridiculous, just remember that the Samsung InstinctHD has HD video out.
The PMP market is dying. There is really no reason to get a Zune HD when for around the same price you get that much more with an iPod Touch. We already have great music and video players, which, sadly, are losing ground steadily to multifunction devices.
Judging by what youre telling me, it seems MS doesn't know how to position this device at all. If it's all of a sudden not even on par with the iPod Touch, what exactly does MS hope to accomplish with this thing? Compete with the new Nano? It can't do that either.
Okay since many of you said the first post snippets weren't smearing the Zune HD and also since Appleinsider likes to talk about other non-Apple products from time to time, I offer another review(without the editing) to the fair discussion:
The PMP market is dying. There is really no reason to get a Zune HD when for around the same price you get that much more with an iPod Touch. We already have great music and video players, which, sadly, are losing ground steadily to multifunction devices.
Judging by what youre telling me, it seems MS doesn't know how to position this device at all. If it's all of a sudden not even on par with the iPod Touch, what exactly does MS hope to accomplish with this thing? Compete with the new Nano? It can't do that either.
The PMP market is dying. There is really no reason to get a Zune HD when for around the same price you get that much more with an iPod Touch. We already have great music and video players, which, sadly, are losing ground steadily to multifunction devices.
Judging by what youre telling me, it seems MS doesn't know how to position this device at all. If it's all of a sudden not even on par with the iPod Touch, what exactly does MS hope to accomplish with this thing? Compete with the new Nano? It can't do that either.
I hadn't seen that before, but I guess would be talking about devices like that.
I agree that the PMP market is dying, but as far as I can tell Microsoft didn't have any real aspirations to take on the touch. I wasn't disagreeing with your last post. I was just giving my best guess at where the Zune HD is really positioned. Given the small numbers of Zunes Microsoft sells, they might be able to sit in that category without losing sales for a while (making significant gains is another story).
Give it up Ghidrah - you can't spin negativity out of good reviews. I know you can't stand it but you really need to let it go.
Well you seem to be more confused than I am about what this thing is supposed to be.
It's getting good reviews, sure. Good for perhaps the small segment that wants a pure PMP with a few perks. Otherwise it's all iPod and iPhone. So MS backed itself into a corner with this, yet claims there's room for growth. Where? into what? Who are buying dedicated PMPs these days when you can get an iPod Touch for a little more? What is the point of the Zune HD?
It's a fine device . . . for what it is. The market, however, has moved past these devices. This is 2009. It's as if MS were to introduce the world's best pager. Or world's best wired carphone.
So MS worked all this time, spent all this R&D to compete with the likes of the Samnsung P3? Seriously??
And really, why not make a bold, fresh attempt to actualy compete directly with the iPod Touch, then? MS has had over two years to respond.
Thanks Quadra and cmf2... I just wrote a lengthy response and then lost it when I hit send only to find out I was no longer logged in. UGH. I just don't have it in me to retype that now.
The short of it is that I'm glad to see some of this has something to it, but still feel that AI exaggerated things, making it sound like the screen was just going to be utter crap, which clearly it's not.
I just don't love the increased bias I guess... I know we all love Apple, but I feel like sometimes AI goes out of it's way to show how Apple is superior to everything else on planet earth. and even though that's true lol... I guess I don't like it being hammered home over and over.. it feels defensive to me after a while. It's sort of like those mac vs pc commercials... at first, they were awesome, but after a while, it gets a little tired. There's only one other mac rumor site I check regularly, and I never get that vibe there, so I don't think it's "me." On the other hand, this is the site I'm at the most, so maybe it is. lol who knows.
Thanks Quadra and cmf2... I just wrote a lengthy response and then lost it when I hit send only to find out I was no longer logged in. UGH. I just don't have it in me to retype that now.
The short of it is that I'm glad to see some of this has something to it, but still feel that AI exaggerated things, making it sound like the screen was just going to be utter crap, which clearly it's not.
I just don't love the increased bias I guess... I know we all love Apple, but I feel like sometimes AI goes out of it's way to show how Apple is superior to everything else on planet earth. and even though that's true lol... I guess I don't like it being hammered home over and over.. it feels defensive to me after a while. It's sort of like those mac vs pc commercials... at first, they were awesome, but after a while, it gets a little tired. There's only one other mac rumor site I check regularly, and I never get that vibe there, so I don't think it's "me." On the other hand, this is the site I'm at the most, so maybe it is. lol who knows.
lol, my original response was more thoughtful...
Oh well.. anyway, thanks again, and I'm out.
There has been way too much bias for my liking in these articles too, although I feel I did learn a few things about OLED in particular. At least with the obvious bias, you know to take everything with a grain of salt.
It's a fine device . . . for what it is. The market, however, has moved past these devices. This is 2009. It's as if MS were to introduce the world's best pager. Or world's best wired carphone.
Oh right - and I forgot that Apple in 2009 invented MMS, video recording, and cut, copy, and paste. How stupid of me. When does flash get invented?
Well you seem to be more confused than I am about what this thing is supposed to be.
It's getting good reviews, sure. Good for perhaps the small segment that wants a pure PMP with a few perks. Otherwise it's all iPod and iPhone. So MS backed itself into a corner with this, yet claims there's room for growth. Where? into what? Who are buying dedicated PMPs these days when you can get an iPod Touch for a little more? What is the point of the Zune HD?
It's a fine device . . . for what it is. The market, however, has moved past these devices. This is 2009. It's as if MS were to introduce the world's best pager. Or world's best wired carphone.
So MS worked all this time, spent all this R&D to compete with the likes of the Samnsung P3? Seriously??
And really, why not make a bold, fresh attempt to actualy compete directly with the iPod Touch, then? MS has had over two years to respond.
I wonder if antitrust issues are holding the Zune back. Why can't the thing have Outlook integration (or even its own mail app), or use Windows Media Player instead of its own software (or have Zune Software replace WMP)? Apple can easily tie all its products into the iPhone OS platform, but Microsoft can't seem to do the same, and since they can't, the Zune wont compete directly with the touch.
I see three possibilities:
1) Anti-trust issues prevent the tight integration that the iPhone platform benefits from
2) Microsoft divisions suck at working together
3) Microsoft doesn't want the Zune to be anything more than a PMP (mind boggling)
I wonder if antitrust issues are holding the Zune back. Why can't the thing have Outlook integration (or even its own mail app), or use Windows Media Player instead of its own software (or have Zune Software replace WMP)? Apple can easily tie all its products into the iPhone OS platform, but Microsoft can't seem to do the same, and since they can't, the Zune wont compete directly with the touch.
I see three possibilities:
1) Anti-trust issues prevent the tight integration that the iPhone platform benefits from
2) Microsoft divisions suck at working together
3) Microsoft doesn't want the Zune to be anything more than a PMP (mind boggling)
Well this is kind of what I'm getting at, unless MS wants to take the Zune HD much further and this is only a taste of things to come. Except that it will attempt to grow into areas that are already filled quite well. And if we are to understand MS' usual attitude to "growth" in the handheld sector, that usually means stagnation to the point of outright neglect, like Windows Mobile, or the original Zune. Certainly, the Zune HD might develop into something greater, but when? Windows Mobile users have been waiting forever for something compelling, and it still isn't here.
I'm afraid I have a hard time believing the argument that the Zune HD is not meant to compete with the iPod Touch, but let's just run with it:
The Zune HD won't compete with the iPhone. That's a given.
Apparently, the Zune HD won't compete with the iPod Touch, either. Ok, fair enough.
So what's left? MS is alright with fighting it out for the scraps along with Samsung? And what happens in a year or two when the iPhone has even greater penetration and even more of us are trading in our iPods for iPhones and similar multifunction devices? There's no stopping the iPhone train, that's a given, unless Cupertino blows up and everyone along with it. And what happens when Apple's tablet is the success people think it will be and pushes single-use devices even further into the periphery? PMPs will cease to exist sooner than we think. Will MS then merge the Zune HD and WinMo platforms somehow? If so, just how much later do they plan on doing that, since we already have that *right now* in the iPhone? Seems in this sense, MS will perpetualy be several steps behind.
Well this is kind of what I'm getting at, unless MS wants to take the Zune HD much further and this is only a taste of things to come. Except that it will attempt to grow into areas that are already filled quite well. And if we are to understand MS' usual attitude to "growth" in the handheld sector, that usually means stagnation to the point of outright neglect, like Windows Mobile, or the original Zune. Certainly, the Zune HD might develop into something greater, but when? Windows Mobile users have been waiting forever for something compelling, and it still isn't here.
I'm afraid I have a hard time believing the argument that the Zune HD is not meant to compete with the iPod Touch, but let's just run with it:
The Zune HD won't compete with the iPhone. That's a given.
Apparently, the Zune HD won't compete with the iPod Touch, either. Ok, fair enough.
So what's left? MS is alright with fighting it out for the scraps along with Samsung? And what happens in a year or two when the iPhone has even greater penetration and even more of us are trading in our iPods for iPhones and similar multifunction devices? There's no stopping the iPhone train, that's a given, unless Cupertino blows up and everyone along with it. And what happens when Apple's tablet is the success people think it will be and pushes single-use devices even further into the periphery? PMPs will cease to exist sooner than we think. Will MS then merge the Zune HD and WinMo platforms somehow? If so, just how much later do they plan on doing that, since we already have that *right now* in the iPhone? Seems in this sense, MS will perpetualy be several steps behind.
You talk like Microsoft is some hardware giant ,which it's not. It's a software company that dominates the world with 85-90% of all users. For all you know they could have produced this Zune for their fanboy base that will buy anything but an iPod- maybe that's their market. This notion that somehow it's even making an attempt to compete no less take over the iPod line is ridiculous bordering on paranoia. It's obiously not geared toward being a mobile machine like a Touch but a music device for its XBox fans. You reasonings are all out of wack here yet you keep spewing it over and over.
You talk like Microsoft is some hardware giant ,which it's not. It's a software company that dominates the world with 85-90% of all users. For all you know they could have produced this Zune for their fanboy base that will buy anything but an iPod- maybe that's their market. This notion that somehow it's even making an attempt to compete no less take over the iPod line is ridiculous bordering on paranoia. It's obiously not geared toward being a mobile machine like a Touch but a music device for its XBox fans. You reasonings are all out of wack here yet you keep spewing it over and over.
What? LOL, I can't believe you posted that.
Now we're narrowing it even further.
So it's a music device for MS' Xbox fans and whatever other minor market, because MS doesn't really need to function in this space anyway?
So their ubiquitous licensing of Windows is basically a money pool from which MS can use resources to dabble here and there, irrespective of results, and we really shouldn't expect anything grand. So MS produced something which at best, is a curious novelty, and at worst, is a failure like the first Zune.
You've described the general situation at MS for the past decade perfectly. I have to agree.
It's obiously not geared toward being a mobile machine like a Touch but a music device for its XBox fans.
I really do wonder why they didn't just make an XBox portable with the Zune HD hardware. The XBox platform and brand does pretty well in the market, at least much better relative its own market than Zune does in the portable media player market. The internal hardware is supposedly super great and it seems wasted on a portable media player that is quite limited in what you can run on it.
The problem with Microsoft these days (as it seems to me at least) is that they as a company are a control freak. They want to be the best at everything and don't like it when Apple, Google, Sony or even Netscape do something better than them. Having Steve Ballmer in charge doesn't help that much.
As a result, Microsoft has grown too big to be managed properly, with a singular goal and vision. They also seem singularly devoted to chasing their competitors at what their competitors do best, and in doing so have lost focus on what it is Microsoft do best.
Take a look at their operating system. Windows XP came out the same year as the first iteration of OS X. Since then, Windows Vista and Windows 6.1 have been a game of catch up with OS X's ease-of-use and good looks, instead of concentrating on its own business-space strengths where it could excel.
Then Google. Microsoft comes across as insanely jealous of Google's popularity in the internet search field, as well as their space in cloud computing.
And in competing with Nintendo and Sony in the console space, Microsoft has lost billions of dollars in selling machines at below build cost, not to mention the Red Ring of Death issues that plagued many of the early consoles.
Microsoft continue to be obsessed too with getting their own - proprietary - file formats to be common usage. Silverlight came out way to late to compete with Flash. WMV is a hopelessly inefficient format. Their DRMs (which they are really too keen on) are far too restrictive and hated by everyone but the record companies.
And then we come to the Zune. They hate the fact that Apple have made a player that has become so ubiquitous in its field that "iPod" has become the default name for any MP3 player, like Hoover did before it in vacuum cleaners. That want a piece of that because they hate the fact that anyone is better than them at anything.
Microsoft comes across as a company who just want to be loved, but try to do so by doing what everyone else who is loved do already, but not as well.
If Microsoft spent more time playing to their own strengths instead of everyone else's, they'd be better off.
It is really refreshing thinking of one of the world's most dominant corporations as insecure child craving for love
And it is likely completely wrong.
It is all about money. Microsoft has loads of it and wants to make even more. So Microsoft goes for markets that are known for being able to generate money.
Like game consoles and gaming industry. Like mobile devices.
If I recall well, Sony was loosing money on every original Playstation, and PS2 (likely PS3 as well). Yet game console market is one of the most profitable markets for Sony in the last 15 years or so. One can afford to loose some money on every console as long as one will get much more by selling games and accessories for that console.
Microsoft is not selecting new markets just because someone is more popular than them in that segment. Believing that is a bit childish. Microsoft is selecting markets because they are proven to be profitable, and because the have common ground with MS existing markets. Making games and peripherals for game console is not much different than making them for a PC. And same, in a way, applies to mobile devices - it is not like MS hasn't got their share of history with PDAs and mobile phones.
Otherwise - if you were correct - we'd have Microsoft Small Appliances - hey, Bosh and Rowenta are doing well with all those blenders and food processors. Or Microsoft vacuum cleaners? How about MS whiteware? Dishwashers and washing machines with Windows CE? Have a quickie Tetris while your underwear is being cleaned - now that would bring them a lot of love!
Comments
http://www.oled-info.com/oleds-direct-sunlight
http://www.intomobile.com/2009/09/02...very-good.html
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/featu...Holy_Grail.php
Could be some issues.
Hey, thanks Quadra... interesting reads, and it was encouraging to see that the sunlight problem should hopefully be greatly diminished as the technology evolves to be brighter and to better compensate overall (which I believe AI did in fact suggest as well, if memory serves). But I'm still left wondering why I haven't seen any mention of this in ZuneHD reviews. If the problem with the Zune's screen was as drastic and dramatic as AI depicted it to be, surely at least ONE of the reviews would have brought up the topic. Does anyone know of any reviewer who did?
If not, I come back to my original problem with that AI "review" a couple days ago, which is that if the ZuneHD performs just fine outdoors or in bright lighting, then AI was extremely misleading, and was misinforming it's readers. And in my opinion, that's the kind of thing that should be acknowledged and corrected.
Hey, thanks Quadra... interesting reads, and it was encouraging to see that the sunlight problem should hopefully be greatly diminished as the technology evolves to be brighter and to better compensate overall (which I believe AI did in fact suggest as well, if memory serves). But I'm still left wondering why I haven't seen any mention of this in ZuneHD reviews. If the problem with the Zune's screen was as drastic and dramatic as AI depicted it to be, surely at least ONE of the reviews would have brought up the topic. Does anyone know of any reviewer who did?
If not, I come back to my original problem with that AI "review" a couple days ago, which is that if the ZuneHD performs just fine outdoors or in bright lighting, then AI was extremely misleading, and was misinforming it's readers. And in my opinion, that's the kind of thing that should be acknowledged and corrected.
http://www.wmexperts.com/hands-zune-hd-part-1
Also of concern with OLED screens is visibility outdoors, particularly in sunlight. I conducted a couple of brief, unscientific tests. I went outside and stood in the sunlight. (And surprisingly didn't burst into flame.) At the medium setting, the Zune HD's screen was all but washed out; I could still slightly make out the iPod Touch's screen. Cranked the Zune HD's display to the "high" setting and they were about equal in the sunlight.
http://gigaom.com/2009/09/15/zunehd-...he-right-ones/
Twitter user peinao: So far so good. Can’t use it in direct sunlight though.
http://gizmodo.com/5360126/zune-hd-r...he-pmp-evolved
However, it's not a perfect win for OLED: The Zune HD's screen is extremely reflective, making it difficult to read in sunlight, while the iPod Touch's LCD was quite easy to read in the same conditions.
Part of this difference is due to technology and part of this is due to UI. The iPod touch uses black text on white for music and video browsing, while the Zune HD is reversed. The Zune HD's black background acts as a mirror, making it difficult to see anything but your own annoyed face.
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?p=12613132
Originally Posted by engadget review
There is one minor gripe though... and you probably can see this one coming. OLED screens aren't known for their performance in direct sunlight, and the Zune HD doesn't hugely improve on that point -- the image below says it all. Just pretend it's Dracula or something.
apple insider was right. not surprising.
Image:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget....ne_outside.jpg
http://www.randomprocess.ca/2009/09/...n-integration/
The OLED screen is superb, with one caveat: it suffers under direct sunlight. Launch day turned out to be a scorcher, with unhindered sunlight. I started off in the launch tent, but I asked permission to take the player outside to test it in the sun. The demo lady obliged and followed me out, where the screen washed out under the sun. With no transflective property, it’s going to be pretty hard to use the device in those conditions. You can still see the screen if you try real hard, or more realistically, shield it with one hand.
Could be an issue.
So . . . the Zune HD shouldn't be compared to the iPod Touch, even though MS (and everyone) clearly positioned it as a competitor to it?
Then what exactly is the Zune HD competing against? Or is it going to create its very own, unique segment of the handheld market?
So we now realize how behind MS is in the game, and three years too late, so let's just downgrade epxectations and shift gears, and re-categorize the Zune HD so it looks better. Hey no problem, sounds like an MS plan to me! Hey, if we put the Zune HD up against the obsolescent iPod Classic, then we've got a winner for sure!
It is competing against things like the Samsung P3. For lack of a better word, I will call them feature PMPs (to contrast with feature phones). They focus on playing music and videos, but can do other things as well, but they are not a mobile computing platform. If the Zune were a phone, it would be in a neck and neck battle with the Samsung Instinct. If that sounds ridiculous, just remember that the Samsung InstinctHD has HD video out.
Hey, thanks Quadra... interesting reads, and it was encouraging to see that the sunlight problem should hopefully be greatly diminished as the technology evolves to be brighter and to better compensate overall (which I believe AI did in fact suggest as well, if memory serves). But I'm still left wondering why I haven't seen any mention of this in ZuneHD reviews. If the problem with the Zune's screen was as drastic and dramatic as AI depicted it to be, surely at least ONE of the reviews would have brought up the topic. Does anyone know of any reviewer who did?
If not, I come back to my original problem with that AI "review" a couple days ago, which is that if the ZuneHD performs just fine outdoors or in bright lighting, then AI was extremely misleading, and was misinforming it's readers. And in my opinion, that's the kind of thing that should be acknowledged and corrected.
I have a pic from engadgets review in post 120.
www.engadget.com/2009/09/17/zune-hd-review
Your welcome.
It is competing against things like the Samsung P3. For lack of a better word, I will call them feature PMPs (to contrast with feature phones). They focus on playing music and videos, but can do other things as well, but they are not a mobile computing platform. If the Zune were a phone, it would be in a neck and neck battle with the Samsung Instinct. If that sounds ridiculous, just remember that the Samsung InstinctHD has HD video out.
The PMP market is dying. There is really no reason to get a Zune HD when for around the same price you get that much more with an iPod Touch. We already have great music and video players, which, sadly, are losing ground steadily to multifunction devices.
Judging by what youre telling me, it seems MS doesn't know how to position this device at all. If it's all of a sudden not even on par with the iPod Touch, what exactly does MS hope to accomplish with this thing? Compete with the new Nano? It can't do that either.
So you meant this thing?
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archi...-in-berlin.php
Glowing reviews.
Oh well, so much for AppleInsider's article bashing of it the day before it was released.
Exactly. The article was lame.
Okay since many of you said the first post snippets weren't smearing the Zune HD and also since Appleinsider likes to talk about other non-Apple products from time to time, I offer another review(without the editing) to the fair discussion:
www.engadget.com/2009/09/17/zune-hd-review
Your welcome.
Thanks and I can't wait until iLounge reviews it. To me they give the best, most thorough reviews like the one this week of the new Nano.
The PMP market is dying. There is really no reason to get a Zune HD when for around the same price you get that much more with an iPod Touch. We already have great music and video players, which, sadly, are losing ground steadily to multifunction devices.
Judging by what youre telling me, it seems MS doesn't know how to position this device at all. If it's all of a sudden not even on par with the iPod Touch, what exactly does MS hope to accomplish with this thing? Compete with the new Nano? It can't do that either.
So you meant this thing?
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archi...-in-berlin.php
Give it up Ghidrah - you can't spin negativity out of good reviews. I know you can't stand it but you really need to let it go.
The PMP market is dying. There is really no reason to get a Zune HD when for around the same price you get that much more with an iPod Touch. We already have great music and video players, which, sadly, are losing ground steadily to multifunction devices.
Judging by what youre telling me, it seems MS doesn't know how to position this device at all. If it's all of a sudden not even on par with the iPod Touch, what exactly does MS hope to accomplish with this thing? Compete with the new Nano? It can't do that either.
So you meant this thing?
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archi...-in-berlin.php
I hadn't seen that before, but I guess would be talking about devices like that.
I agree that the PMP market is dying, but as far as I can tell Microsoft didn't have any real aspirations to take on the touch. I wasn't disagreeing with your last post. I was just giving my best guess at where the Zune HD is really positioned. Given the small numbers of Zunes Microsoft sells, they might be able to sit in that category without losing sales for a while (making significant gains is another story).
Give it up Ghidrah - you can't spin negativity out of good reviews. I know you can't stand it but you really need to let it go.
Well you seem to be more confused than I am about what this thing is supposed to be.
It's getting good reviews, sure. Good for perhaps the small segment that wants a pure PMP with a few perks. Otherwise it's all iPod and iPhone. So MS backed itself into a corner with this, yet claims there's room for growth. Where? into what? Who are buying dedicated PMPs these days when you can get an iPod Touch for a little more? What is the point of the Zune HD?
It's a fine device . . . for what it is. The market, however, has moved past these devices. This is 2009. It's as if MS were to introduce the world's best pager. Or world's best wired carphone.
So MS worked all this time, spent all this R&D to compete with the likes of the Samnsung P3? Seriously??
And really, why not make a bold, fresh attempt to actualy compete directly with the iPod Touch, then? MS has had over two years to respond.
I have a pic from engadgets review in post 120.
Thanks Quadra and cmf2... I just wrote a lengthy response and then lost it when I hit send only to find out I was no longer logged in. UGH. I just don't have it in me to retype that now.
The short of it is that I'm glad to see some of this has something to it, but still feel that AI exaggerated things, making it sound like the screen was just going to be utter crap, which clearly it's not.
I just don't love the increased bias I guess... I know we all love Apple, but I feel like sometimes AI goes out of it's way to show how Apple is superior to everything else on planet earth. and even though that's true lol... I guess I don't like it being hammered home over and over.. it feels defensive to me after a while. It's sort of like those mac vs pc commercials... at first, they were awesome, but after a while, it gets a little tired. There's only one other mac rumor site I check regularly, and I never get that vibe there, so I don't think it's "me." On the other hand, this is the site I'm at the most, so maybe it is. lol who knows.
lol, my original response was more thoughtful...
Oh well.. anyway, thanks again, and I'm out.
Thanks Quadra and cmf2... I just wrote a lengthy response and then lost it when I hit send only to find out I was no longer logged in. UGH. I just don't have it in me to retype that now.
The short of it is that I'm glad to see some of this has something to it, but still feel that AI exaggerated things, making it sound like the screen was just going to be utter crap, which clearly it's not.
I just don't love the increased bias I guess... I know we all love Apple, but I feel like sometimes AI goes out of it's way to show how Apple is superior to everything else on planet earth. and even though that's true lol... I guess I don't like it being hammered home over and over.. it feels defensive to me after a while. It's sort of like those mac vs pc commercials... at first, they were awesome, but after a while, it gets a little tired. There's only one other mac rumor site I check regularly, and I never get that vibe there, so I don't think it's "me." On the other hand, this is the site I'm at the most, so maybe it is. lol who knows.
lol, my original response was more thoughtful...
Oh well.. anyway, thanks again, and I'm out.
There has been way too much bias for my liking in these articles too, although I feel I did learn a few things about OLED in particular. At least with the obvious bias, you know to take everything with a grain of salt.
It's a fine device . . . for what it is. The market, however, has moved past these devices. This is 2009. It's as if MS were to introduce the world's best pager. Or world's best wired carphone.
Oh right - and I forgot that Apple in 2009 invented MMS, video recording, and cut, copy, and paste. How stupid of me. When does flash get invented?
Well you seem to be more confused than I am about what this thing is supposed to be.
It's getting good reviews, sure. Good for perhaps the small segment that wants a pure PMP with a few perks. Otherwise it's all iPod and iPhone. So MS backed itself into a corner with this, yet claims there's room for growth. Where? into what? Who are buying dedicated PMPs these days when you can get an iPod Touch for a little more? What is the point of the Zune HD?
It's a fine device . . . for what it is. The market, however, has moved past these devices. This is 2009. It's as if MS were to introduce the world's best pager. Or world's best wired carphone.
So MS worked all this time, spent all this R&D to compete with the likes of the Samnsung P3? Seriously??
And really, why not make a bold, fresh attempt to actualy compete directly with the iPod Touch, then? MS has had over two years to respond.
I wonder if antitrust issues are holding the Zune back. Why can't the thing have Outlook integration (or even its own mail app), or use Windows Media Player instead of its own software (or have Zune Software replace WMP)? Apple can easily tie all its products into the iPhone OS platform, but Microsoft can't seem to do the same, and since they can't, the Zune wont compete directly with the touch.
I see three possibilities:
1) Anti-trust issues prevent the tight integration that the iPhone platform benefits from
2) Microsoft divisions suck at working together
3) Microsoft doesn't want the Zune to be anything more than a PMP (mind boggling)
I wonder if antitrust issues are holding the Zune back. Why can't the thing have Outlook integration (or even its own mail app), or use Windows Media Player instead of its own software (or have Zune Software replace WMP)? Apple can easily tie all its products into the iPhone OS platform, but Microsoft can't seem to do the same, and since they can't, the Zune wont compete directly with the touch.
I see three possibilities:
1) Anti-trust issues prevent the tight integration that the iPhone platform benefits from
2) Microsoft divisions suck at working together
3) Microsoft doesn't want the Zune to be anything more than a PMP (mind boggling)
Well this is kind of what I'm getting at, unless MS wants to take the Zune HD much further and this is only a taste of things to come. Except that it will attempt to grow into areas that are already filled quite well. And if we are to understand MS' usual attitude to "growth" in the handheld sector, that usually means stagnation to the point of outright neglect, like Windows Mobile, or the original Zune. Certainly, the Zune HD might develop into something greater, but when? Windows Mobile users have been waiting forever for something compelling, and it still isn't here.
I'm afraid I have a hard time believing the argument that the Zune HD is not meant to compete with the iPod Touch, but let's just run with it:
The Zune HD won't compete with the iPhone. That's a given.
Apparently, the Zune HD won't compete with the iPod Touch, either. Ok, fair enough.
So what's left? MS is alright with fighting it out for the scraps along with Samsung? And what happens in a year or two when the iPhone has even greater penetration and even more of us are trading in our iPods for iPhones and similar multifunction devices? There's no stopping the iPhone train, that's a given, unless Cupertino blows up and everyone along with it. And what happens when Apple's tablet is the success people think it will be and pushes single-use devices even further into the periphery? PMPs will cease to exist sooner than we think. Will MS then merge the Zune HD and WinMo platforms somehow? If so, just how much later do they plan on doing that, since we already have that *right now* in the iPhone? Seems in this sense, MS will perpetualy be several steps behind.
Well this is kind of what I'm getting at, unless MS wants to take the Zune HD much further and this is only a taste of things to come. Except that it will attempt to grow into areas that are already filled quite well. And if we are to understand MS' usual attitude to "growth" in the handheld sector, that usually means stagnation to the point of outright neglect, like Windows Mobile, or the original Zune. Certainly, the Zune HD might develop into something greater, but when? Windows Mobile users have been waiting forever for something compelling, and it still isn't here.
I'm afraid I have a hard time believing the argument that the Zune HD is not meant to compete with the iPod Touch, but let's just run with it:
The Zune HD won't compete with the iPhone. That's a given.
Apparently, the Zune HD won't compete with the iPod Touch, either. Ok, fair enough.
So what's left? MS is alright with fighting it out for the scraps along with Samsung? And what happens in a year or two when the iPhone has even greater penetration and even more of us are trading in our iPods for iPhones and similar multifunction devices? There's no stopping the iPhone train, that's a given, unless Cupertino blows up and everyone along with it. And what happens when Apple's tablet is the success people think it will be and pushes single-use devices even further into the periphery? PMPs will cease to exist sooner than we think. Will MS then merge the Zune HD and WinMo platforms somehow? If so, just how much later do they plan on doing that, since we already have that *right now* in the iPhone? Seems in this sense, MS will perpetualy be several steps behind.
You talk like Microsoft is some hardware giant ,which it's not. It's a software company that dominates the world with 85-90% of all users. For all you know they could have produced this Zune for their fanboy base that will buy anything but an iPod- maybe that's their market. This notion that somehow it's even making an attempt to compete no less take over the iPod line is ridiculous bordering on paranoia. It's obiously not geared toward being a mobile machine like a Touch but a music device for its XBox fans. You reasonings are all out of wack here yet you keep spewing it over and over.
You talk like Microsoft is some hardware giant ,which it's not. It's a software company that dominates the world with 85-90% of all users. For all you know they could have produced this Zune for their fanboy base that will buy anything but an iPod- maybe that's their market. This notion that somehow it's even making an attempt to compete no less take over the iPod line is ridiculous bordering on paranoia. It's obiously not geared toward being a mobile machine like a Touch but a music device for its XBox fans. You reasonings are all out of wack here yet you keep spewing it over and over.
What? LOL, I can't believe you posted that.
Now we're narrowing it even further.
So it's a music device for MS' Xbox fans and whatever other minor market, because MS doesn't really need to function in this space anyway?
So their ubiquitous licensing of Windows is basically a money pool from which MS can use resources to dabble here and there, irrespective of results, and we really shouldn't expect anything grand. So MS produced something which at best, is a curious novelty, and at worst, is a failure like the first Zune.
You've described the general situation at MS for the past decade perfectly. I have to agree.
It's obiously not geared toward being a mobile machine like a Touch but a music device for its XBox fans.
I really do wonder why they didn't just make an XBox portable with the Zune HD hardware. The XBox platform and brand does pretty well in the market, at least much better relative its own market than Zune does in the portable media player market. The internal hardware is supposedly super great and it seems wasted on a portable media player that is quite limited in what you can run on it.
The problem with Microsoft these days (as it seems to me at least) is that they as a company are a control freak. They want to be the best at everything and don't like it when Apple, Google, Sony or even Netscape do something better than them. Having Steve Ballmer in charge doesn't help that much.
As a result, Microsoft has grown too big to be managed properly, with a singular goal and vision. They also seem singularly devoted to chasing their competitors at what their competitors do best, and in doing so have lost focus on what it is Microsoft do best.
Take a look at their operating system. Windows XP came out the same year as the first iteration of OS X. Since then, Windows Vista and Windows 6.1 have been a game of catch up with OS X's ease-of-use and good looks, instead of concentrating on its own business-space strengths where it could excel.
Then Google. Microsoft comes across as insanely jealous of Google's popularity in the internet search field, as well as their space in cloud computing.
And in competing with Nintendo and Sony in the console space, Microsoft has lost billions of dollars in selling machines at below build cost, not to mention the Red Ring of Death issues that plagued many of the early consoles.
Microsoft continue to be obsessed too with getting their own - proprietary - file formats to be common usage. Silverlight came out way to late to compete with Flash. WMV is a hopelessly inefficient format. Their DRMs (which they are really too keen on) are far too restrictive and hated by everyone but the record companies.
And then we come to the Zune. They hate the fact that Apple have made a player that has become so ubiquitous in its field that "iPod" has become the default name for any MP3 player, like Hoover did before it in vacuum cleaners. That want a piece of that because they hate the fact that anyone is better than them at anything.
Microsoft comes across as a company who just want to be loved, but try to do so by doing what everyone else who is loved do already, but not as well.
If Microsoft spent more time playing to their own strengths instead of everyone else's, they'd be better off.
It is really refreshing thinking of one of the world's most dominant corporations as insecure child craving for love
And it is likely completely wrong.
It is all about money. Microsoft has loads of it and wants to make even more. So Microsoft goes for markets that are known for being able to generate money.
Like game consoles and gaming industry. Like mobile devices.
If I recall well, Sony was loosing money on every original Playstation, and PS2 (likely PS3 as well). Yet game console market is one of the most profitable markets for Sony in the last 15 years or so. One can afford to loose some money on every console as long as one will get much more by selling games and accessories for that console.
Microsoft is not selecting new markets just because someone is more popular than them in that segment. Believing that is a bit childish. Microsoft is selecting markets because they are proven to be profitable, and because the have common ground with MS existing markets. Making games and peripherals for game console is not much different than making them for a PC. And same, in a way, applies to mobile devices - it is not like MS hasn't got their share of history with PDAs and mobile phones.
Otherwise - if you were correct - we'd have Microsoft Small Appliances - hey, Bosh and Rowenta are doing well with all those blenders and food processors. Or Microsoft vacuum cleaners? How about MS whiteware? Dishwashers and washing machines with Windows CE? Have a quickie Tetris while your underwear is being cleaned - now that would bring them a lot of love!