How do you suggest it be enforced? And you have defined separation of church and state as high-minded. You are aware that there are a lot of people over there who wouldn't accept that definition, aren't you? Someone else might think that dying for a cause is equally high-minded. Setting aside this debate over definitions, I haven't seen any "high-mindedness" on the Palestinian side and precious little of it on the Jewish side.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You post as if I am for this charade! Just because one does not put [sarcasm] statement [/sarcasm] does not mean he believes what he writes, I thought the sarcasm was clear in places but obviously it was not. There is no way to enforce such a rule. It has to be done by those in the nation, and it never will be so long as they cannot be made to enforce it.
I don't care how they define High-Minded, or my usage of it. It was used in a sarcastic way, or was intended to be. I don't see how separation of church and state has been so wonderful for the US. Except that it blocked the requirement that a people follow the religion setup by the government. Unfortunately it has been twisted by those in power and by lawyers and judges to mean, no religion in any way shape or form. Which is not what it was intended to mean. Seeing that from across the waters, would they pick up on that and cheer? No way! Thus, the sarcasm of the post.
Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, 2,000 years before the rise of Islam in the 7th Century CE.
Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for 1,000 years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. Even though other nations have ruled the land since 70 CE, there has always been a Jewish population in the land during the 1,900 years of dispsersion.
Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordonians occupied Jerusalem they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
The Hebrew prophets proclaimed a biblical covenant between the Jewish poeple and the land of Israel to last as long as the cosmic order (Jeremiah 31:35-36). The West Bank is bilical Judea and Samaria.
Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Tanakh - the Jewish scriptures. It is not mentioned even one time in the Koran.
King David made Jerusalem the capital of his United Kingdom. There is no record of Mohammad actually visiting Jerusalem.
Jews Pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray towards Mecca, with their back towards Jerusalem
During the years of the British Mandate (1917-1948) many Arabs, as well as Jews, moved to the area called Palestine. Haigher wages and living standards drew many Arabs from Syria and Egypt. Under the mandate both Jews and Arabs carried passports identifying them as "Palestinians".
In 1922, 78% of the Mandate area became a Palestinian Arab area on the east bank of the Jordan River - later to be called Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
In 1948, the Arabs refused the UN Partition Plan which would have given them the state they are asking for today. That year the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purget he land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms.
The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 650,000. The number of Jewish refugees forced form Arab lands in the same time period is estimated to be approx. the same.
Under Jordonian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
The land of Israel is a geographic unit, fromthe Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea. If divided again, as it was before 1967, it would be virtually indefensible. It is also importnat to remember that the West Bank is the biblical heartland of Israel. The highlands giving strategic control to those who occupy them, the watershed, and without this territory Israel is only 9-15 miles wide along the coast.
There was no peace when the West Bank and East Jerusalem were in Arab hands from 1948-1967. If, as is often suggested, the return of the West Bank to Arab or joint Jordonian/Palestinian control will bring peace to the Middle East, why then was there no peace when these territories were in Arab hands for nearly 20 years? If the PLO will be satisfied with autonomy in the West Bank, why was to PLO formed in 1964 when the West Bank was already under Arab control? Why did the Arab nations declare war on Israel in 1967 when they already possesed the West Bank? Perhaps it wa snot to liberate the Palestinians, but to destroy Israel.
The PLO's charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Charter denies any right of self-government to the Jews. No Palestinian Arab moderates have come forth to propose changes in this basic documant of the Palestinian movement. The PLO leadership has always intended to control the whole area, not just the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO Charter has never been officially changed.
There is reason to believe that a Palestinian state in the West Bank could easily become another Lebanon - filled with corruption, internal strife, and violence.
Zionism began as a dream, in the face of a long history of anti-semitism, that a homeland would be created where all Jews who desired to do so would be able to settle in their ancient land in the midst of a supportive community. With continuing evidence of anti-semitism in the world today, it would be a tragic mistake for Israel to be so reduced in size as to prevent her from being a potential home for all Jews who want to emigrate.
Does justice for the Palestinians necessarily mean forming a second Palestinian Arab state? (Such a state already exists in Jordan, where a very large majority of the citizens are Palestinians.) Many Palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity in the country of their choice. All the Arabs who want to make Israel their home should be treated well and justly by the Israeli authorities. In fact, while there are many legitimate grievances, Israel ahs generally treated the Palestinian population better than America has treated our native people and far better than Jordan, Syria, and Egypt has treated the Palestinians.
Israel is the only democratic state in the area. There are at least 20 Arab states in the region and only one Jewish state.
The refugee camps have been maintained and the Arab refugees kept there deliberately to pressure Israel. Consider how many refugees were settled in lands other than their place of birth after WWII.
What would the authorities in our country do if faced with gangs of stone-throwing children and teenagers? Those gangs include snipers and armed soldiers interspersed with the youth. If these gangs were allowed to proceed unchallenged they would- and do - attack ordinary citizens. A responsible government is obliged to maintain order.
[quote] SOME FACTS ABOUT THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT <hr></blockquote>
your facts stinks of the need for selfjustification. Here are some answers. Some of this has been posted before in this thread, I guess you didn't care to read everything? Some of it I wrote myself, some I copied.
[quote] Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, 2,000 years before the rise of Islam in the 7th Century CE.
Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for 1,000 years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. Even though other nations have ruled the land since 70 CE, there has always been a Jewish population in the land during the 1,900 years of dispsersion.
<hr></blockquote>
"The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine"
"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.
You are also confusing arabs and islam here. The arabs came with the jews...
[quote] Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordonians occupied Jerusalem they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.<hr></blockquote>
Jerusalem is the third holiest muslim city and the holiest Christian and jewish.
Jerusalem still isn't recognized as the Israeli capital by any nation or the UN.
[quote] The Hebrew prophets proclaimed a biblical covenant between the Jewish poeple and the land of Israel to last as long as the cosmic order (Jeremiah 31:35-36). The West Bank is bilical Judea and Samaria.
* Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Tanakh - the Jewish scriptures. It is not mentioned even one time in the Koran.
* King David made Jerusalem the capital of his United Kingdom. There is no record of Mohammad actually visiting Jerusalem.
* Jews Pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray towards Mecca, with their back towards Jerusalem.
<hr></blockquote>
So a Muslim in Indonesia has his back against Jerusalem while facing Mecca?
Interesting anatomic concept!
These arguments have no relevance. What about all the mentioning of Jerusalem in christian scriptures, maybe they should have it?
[quote] During the years of the British Mandate (1917-1948) many Arabs, as well as Jews, moved to the area called Palestine. Haigher wages and living standards drew many Arabs from Syria and Egypt. Under the mandate both Jews and Arabs carried passports identifying them as "Palestinians".<hr></blockquote>
the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314
[quote] In 1922, 78% of the Mandate area became a Palestinian Arab area on the east bank of the Jordan River - later to be called Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.<hr></blockquote>
The population of Jordan is ethnically different from that of Palestine. The Palestinians were descended from peoples that invaded or settled in Palestine both before and after the Arabs in the seventh century. The Jordanians (the Hashemites) were mainly descended from Arab tribes of the northwestern part of the Arabian Peninsula. Palestine and Jordan were also distinguishable by the fact that Transjordan was mostly nomadic while Palestine had 800 villages and two dozen towns.
[quote] In 1948, the Arabs refused the UN Partition Plan which would have given them the state they are asking for today. That year the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purget he land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.<hr></blockquote>
"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it- or its predecessors - actively created." Peretz Kidron
"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." [/I]Erskine Childers, British researcher[/I]
[quote] The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms.
*The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 650,000. The number of Jewish refugees forced form Arab lands in the same time period is estimated to be approx. the same.<hr></blockquote>
Only about 126,000 Oriental Jews (mostly from Iraq and Yemen) emigrated to Palestine in the two years immediately following an-Nakba in 1948. Still you might have had a point here. But your own arguments work against you. Are we supposed to belive that the palestinians left by their own free will to live in refugee camps while the arab jews were "forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms"? This is a totally biased statement.
The question is who started the agression? In general, Jews lived in harmony for 1300 years with their Muslim compatriots in the Arab-Islamic world.
[quote] Under Jordonian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.<hr></blockquote>
So the palestinians have access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, just a few km. away?
[quote] The land of Israel is a geographic unit, fromthe Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea. If divided again, as it was before 1967, it would be virtually indefensible. It is also importnat to remember that the West Bank is the biblical heartland of Israel. The highlands giving strategic control to those who occupy them, the watershed, and without this territory Israel is only 9-15 miles wide along the coast.<hr></blockquote>
Seems to me that it's the palestinians who need defence right now... This is why we need a real peace-treaty... Israel can't expect to keep land just for protection... They should re-occupy south-lebanon and sinai too then...
[quote] There was no peace when the West Bank and East Jerusalem were in Arab hands from 1948-1967. If, as is often suggested, the return of the West Bank to Arab or joint Jordonian/Palestinian control will bring peace to the Middle East, why then was there no peace when these territories were in Arab hands for nearly 20 years? If the PLO will be satisfied with autonomy in the West Bank, why was to PLO formed in 1964 when the West Bank was already under Arab control? Why did the Arab nations declare war on Israel in 1967 when they already possesed the West Bank? Perhaps it wa snot to liberate the Palestinians, but to destroy Israel.<hr></blockquote> Because the arab countries are ready to recognize Israel now. PLO has done for the last ten years.
[quote] The PLO's charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.<hr></blockquote>
[quote] Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Charter denies any right of self-government to the Jews. No Palestinian Arab moderates have come forth to propose changes in this basic documant of the Palestinian movement. The PLO leadership has always intended to control the whole area, not just the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO Charter has never been officially changed.<hr></blockquote>
See above...
[quote] There is reason to believe that a Palestinian state in the West Bank could easily become another Lebanon - filled with corruption, internal strife, and violence.<hr></blockquote>
Yes... Israel has just turned the West Bank into another Lebanon... or another Beirut to be more precise... A total ruin, by israeli violence...
[quote] Zionism began as a dream, in the face of a long history of anti-semitism, that a homeland would be created where all Jews who desired to do so would be able to settle in their ancient land in the midst of a supportive community. With continuing evidence of anti-semitism in the world today, it would be a tragic mistake for Israel to be so reduced in size as to prevent her from being a potential home for all Jews who want to emigrate.<hr></blockquote>
While a dream in the beginning the consequense has been an apartheid state...
[quote] Does justice for the Palestinians necessarily mean forming a second Palestinian Arab state? (Such a state already exists in Jordan, where a very large majority of the citizens are Palestinians.) Many Palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity in the country of their choice. All the Arabs who want to make Israel their home should be treated well and justly by the Israeli authorities. In fact, while there are many legitimate grievances, Israel ahs generally treated the Palestinian population better than America has treated our native people and far better than Jordan, Syria, and Egypt has treated the Palestinians.<hr></blockquote>
So why havn't Israel given any democratic rights to yhe people of Gaza and the West Bank for the last 35 years? At least they havn't been forced to live in reservations? Is this your argument?
"The 1989 Israel High Court decision that any political party advocating full equality between Arab and Jew can be barred from fielding candidates in an election...[means] that the Israeli state is the state of the Jews...not their [the Arabs'] state." Professor Norman Finkelstein
[quote] Israel is the only democratic state in the area. There are at least 20 Arab states in the region and only one Jewish state.<hr></blockquote>
Yes? does beeing a democracy give Israel any more right to what it does? A Palestinian state would have to be democratic too, so then you would have two...
BTW, why doesn't Israel have a Constitution?
[quote] The refugee camps have been maintained and the Arab refugees kept there deliberately to pressure Israel. Consider how many refugees were settled in lands other than their place of birth after WWII.<hr></blockquote>
Right, and the palestinians think that just ok?
[quote] What would the authorities in our country do if faced with gangs of stone-throwing children and teenagers? Those gangs include snipers and armed soldiers interspersed with the youth. If these gangs were allowed to proceed unchallenged they would- and do - attack ordinary citizens. A responsible government is obliged to maintain order.<hr></blockquote>
So how do we solve this problem in the west? Oh, wait, we havn't had any 35 year long occupations in modern times...
Any occupied nation has under UN law the right to resist occupation. All occupied european nations resisted nazi-germany violently. This does not make terrorism right in any way. But Israels "war on terror" is nothing but terrorism in it self at the moment. Why? Read this:
''act of terrorism'' means an activity that -
(A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping;
[quote] the PLO's charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Charter denies any right of self-government to the Jews <hr></blockquote>
no it does not. People in palestine call for that but not the leadership. I think once call is restored and a state established those voices will stop.
from PLO
[quote] The State of Palestine as a sovereign state has the right independently to define and conduct its foreign relations. The PLO will nevertheless seek to promote cooperation among Israel, Palestine, and neighboring States in fields of common interest. In order to promote cooperation among Israel, Palestine, and neighboring States, Palestine will seek cooperation in numerous fields, including: agriculture, and marine matters, arms control, communications, crime prevention, culture, economic relations, energy, environment, exploitation of natural resources, health, security, social security and welfare, sports, tourism and transportation.
This Senator of yours is a joke... or at least his history education is...
All the arguments about the area beeing a desert before Israel was created. It's either lack of knowledge or an outright lie... "No orange groves"... The Jaffa orange was developed and made by palestinians way before 1900... "
In fact in 1946, Walter C. Lowdermilk, Assistant Chief of US Soil Conservation Service, examined Palestine, and compared it to California, except that "the soils of Palestine were uniformly better" ...
Jerusalem is the third holiest muslim city and the holiest Christian and jewish.
Jerusalem still isn't recognized as the Israeli capital by any nation or the UN.
Actually, Costa Rica does recognize Jerusalem as the capital.
As for the history of the region, I think both sides need to deal with the reality of today. Israel is the victor in the many wars waged against it and they should be guaranteed enough land to make them secure and safe. Their will never be stability in the region unless there is a State called Palestine formed. Palestinians are going to have to give up some of what they want if they want a settlement. The losers of a war do not dictate to the winner terms of a peace settlement. Its time for the world to realize this-Israel is the victor country and all talks should start by treating Israel with more respect than it is given............................................. .....
[quote]Jerusalem is the third holiest muslim city and the holiest Christian and jewish.
Jerusalem still isn't recognized as the Israeli capital by any nation or the UN.<hr></blockquote> Yet it is not mentioned in the Koran anywhere? Why is that? If it is so holy should it not be mentioned in their holy scriptures? Also on whether Jerusalem is the Captiol of Isreal.
Now the UN Document does indeed agree with your assertion that they don not currently recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Unless they got their own way:
It was time for Israeli leaders in the peace camp to shape public opinion and to help Israelis understand that eventually, inevitably, Jerusalem would be shared. Jerusalem would be the capital of two States; Jerusalem could continue to be the capital of Israel and at the same time the capital of Palestine without harming in any way Israel's interests in the city. As the capital of both countries, Jerusalem would finally be recognized by the world as the seat of Israel's Government.
[quote]These arguments have no relevance. What about all the mentioning of Jerusalem in christian scriptures, maybe they should have it?<hr></blockquote>
Since the Christian Scriptures are derived from the Jewish texts this is a rediculous argument and you know it.
[quote]So the palestinians have access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, just a few km. away?<hr></blockquote>
Have they been denied access to Jerusalem? To any of their holy sites? I have seen nothing to say so. Unless of course they are wearing bombs strapped to their waist of course...
[quote]Seems to me that it's the palestinians who need defence right now... This is why we need a real peace-treaty... Israel can't expect to keep land just for protection... They should re-occupy south-lebanon and sinai too then...<hr></blockquote>
They would not need this if they would not have been the aggressors in all the past wars with Israel and if they were not committing terrorist acts even now as Israel and the rest of the world trys to bring peace tot he reagion. Israel has finally gotten fed up with all the political failures and has taken a much more aggressive stance. I cannot blame them, I cannot say I would do it any differently.
And why should they not keep land for protection? That is a big way to protect yourself from attackers is thorugh strategic places on the borders. Why give your attackers the upper hand? If the Palestinians had show any interest in just being peaceful neighbors this might be a moot point, but as of right now I see no peceful intent. Only hollow words of a leader who by all accounts seems to have lost control and bombs exploding in public areas in Israel.
[quote]Because the arab countries are ready to recognize Israel now. PLO has done for the last ten years.
AND
No they don't, Israel also recognizes the PLO: Read this!<hr></blockquote>
The words of two political leaders. Not official documents in the slightest. For a real copy of the PLO charter you need to look <a href="http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm"; target="_blank">Here.</a>
[quote]Yes... Israel has just turned the West Bank into another Lebanon... or another Beirut to be more precise... A total ruin, by israeli violence...<hr></blockquote>
And I still put it to you that this would not be the case if it were not for Palestinian aggression necessitating the armed forces protecting Israel be mobilized.
[quote]While a dream in the beginning the consequense has been an apartheid state...<hr></blockquote>
Caused by a Palestinian government that was unwilling to accept in the beginning that Israel had a right to the state that they now have. And their choice to deal with this through the use of terrorism and murder of innocents.
[quote]So how do we solve this problem in the west? Oh, wait, we havn't had any 35 year long occupations in modern times...<hr></blockquote>
The question stands. You sidestepped the question and tried to bring up a wholly different issue. We have a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan and are supposed to have UN forces inspecting Iraq. Is that also an occupation that Iraq and Afghanistan have the right to violently resist? Or is there a difference in the fact that we are protecting ourselves from something dangerous that makes it ok?
[quote]Any occupied nation has under UN law the right to resist occupation. All occupied european nations resisted nazi-germany violently. This does not make terrorism right in any way. But Israels "war on terror" is nothing but terrorism in it self at the moment. Why? Read this:
''act of terrorism'' means an activity that -
(A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping;
So now US interpretation of Law matters to you? I thought we were off base on that law? I thought we were part of the problem? Which way is it? The US recognizes Israel's right to defend itself. The US does not see this defence as terrorism. We have a large issue of context which this law is being applied out of.
You speak of Israel like it the Mob... Respect? Respect for what? More American made weapons?
It seems pretty obvious that Israel is at a point where it has to chose between the land and security... At the moment the palestinians have nothing more to lose...
<strong>This Senator of yours is a joke... or at least his history education is...
All the arguments about the area beeing a desert before Israel was created. It's either lack of knowledge or an outright lie... "No orange groves"... The Jaffa orange was developed and made by palestinians way before 1900... "
In fact in 1946, Walter C. Lowdermilk, Assistant Chief of US Soil Conservation Service, examined Palestine, and compared it to California, except that "the soils of Palestine were uniformly better" ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
From the speech, Samuel Clemens quote:
A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.
The soil was rich, but the people were not doing much with it. It was neglected, sorely.
and this:
This is the report that the Palestinian Royal Commission, created by the British, made. It quotes an account of the conditions on the coastal plain along the Mediterranean Sea in 1913. This is the Palestinian Royal Commission. They said:
The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track, suitable for transport by camels or carts. No orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the Yavnev village. Houses were mud. Schools did not exist. The western part toward the sea was almost a desert. The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.
<strong>You speak of Israel like it the Mob... Respect? Respect for what? More American made weapons?
It seems pretty obvious that Israel is at a point where it has to chose between the land and security... At the moment the palestinians have nothing more to lose...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only their lives and the respect of the international community which has begun wavering in their support of the underdog that bombs discos and parties, and civilians.
[quote] ... this is a rediculous argument and you know it. <hr></blockquote>
Yes all arguments based on biblical claims are quite silly...
[quote] Have they been denied access to Jerusalem? To any of their holy sites? I have seen nothing to say so. <hr></blockquote>Palestinians on the West Bank are denied access even to other places on the West Bank every day. And this has been going on for years.
[quote] And why should they not keep land for protection? <hr></blockquote>
Because keeping the land is what makes the conflict continue.
Keeping the land, settling it, redirecting the waterflow in the areas around the settlements etc. etc.
[quote] For a real copy of the PLO charter you need to look Here. <hr></blockquote>
wow. What a source, a non governmental security organisation . This document has only historical relevance.
[quote] And I still put it to you that this would not be the case if it were not for Palestinian aggression necessitating the armed forces protecting Israel be mobilized. <hr></blockquote>
So agression by certain palestinian groups makes a collective punish of all palestinian civilians by a proffesional army ok? get real...
[quote] You sidestepped the question [/[QUOTE]
I didn't sidestep the question. I stated that any occupied nation has the right to resist. A right both the US and the UN recognizes... Israel should have sidesteped the whole problem by pulling out years ago...
[QUOTE] We have a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan <hr></blockquote> They wouldn't last for five minutes if the new government didn't want them there... IDF is a occupation army, not a peacekeeping army...
[quote]So now US interpretation of Law matters to you? I thought we were off base on that law? I thought we were part of the problem? Which way is it? The US recognizes Israel's right to defend itself. The US does not see this defence as terrorism. We have a large issue of context which this law is being applied out of. <hr></blockquote>
I have never questioned US law, only inconsistent US foreign policy. The US hasn't wanted to see this as terrorism until now. Because Israel has been an important ally. Like South Africa once was. And things have never been this bad. But things are hopefully beginning to change now...
[quote] The soil was rich, but the people were not doing much with it. It was neglected, sorely. <hr></blockquote>
In 1893, the British Consul advised his government of the value of importing trees from Jaffa to improve production in Australia and South Africa.
"In 1939, Palestine exported over 15 million cases of citrus fruit .
In 1942, Palestine produced nearly 305,000 tons of grains and legumes
In 1943, Palestine produced 280,000 tons of fruit, excluding citrus fruits
In 1945, Palestine had over 600,000 dunums of land planted with olive trees, producing nearly 80,000 tons of olives, and accounting for 1 percent of the olive oil production for the WORLD and produced nearly 245,000 tons of vegetables."
[A Survey of Palestine, for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Vol.I, 320,325-27,337 + additonal sources].
[quote] ... The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track, suitable for transport by camels or carts. No orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the Yavnev village. Houses were mud. Schools did not exist. The western part toward the sea was almost a desert. The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.
That was 1913.<hr></blockquote>
The last quote gave me a hard time since I couldn't seem to find where Yavnev Village is. But on my map it is called Yavneh, and the road from Gaza to there (not very long) is still small, and the area is the least populated part of the whole coast. The western part towards the sea is still seems kind of dessert like. Or maybe Beach-like is a better term... (?)
Anyway it's a quote taken completly out of context to make it "seem" like the whole coast was desserted while we in reality are talking about less than one fifth of the coastline, and from what I can tell the least populated part of the whole coast... A bit like saying the whole west coast is like southern california... shame!
BTW, how is that explanation on muslim anatomy going?
<strong>You speak of Israel like it the Mob... Respect? Respect for what? More American made weapons?
It seems pretty obvious that Israel is at a point where it has to chose between the land and security... At the moment the palestinians have nothing more to lose...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Respect because after the homicide bombings killed over 100 innocent civilians Israel could have squashed the palestinians like a bug. Any other country would have wiped them out......................
<strong>As for the history of the region, I think both sides need to deal with the reality of today. Israel is the victor in the many wars waged against it and they should be guaranteed enough land to make them secure and safe. Their will never be stability in the region unless there is a State called Palestine formed. Palestinians are going to have to give up some of what they want if they want a settlement. The losers of a war do not dictate to the winner terms of a peace settlement. Its time for the world to realize this-Israel is the victor country and all talks should start by treating Israel with more respect than it is given</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completely. Historical texts (especially the Bible, if it even can be considered a factual historical text) are always open to interpretation. Israel's main actions are in the name of security, agree with them or not.
And New, Israel's main weapon (the nuclear one), was given to them by the French, actually.
And New, Israel's main weapon (the nuclear one), was given to them by the French, actually.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel developed her own nuclear weapons. Their was some French assistance at one point, but they pulled out leaving Israel to do the developement on her own.
Yes all arguments based on biblical claims are quite silly...<hr></blockquote>
I suppose to one who does not believe in biblical relevance they would seem that way. Fine.
[quote]Because keeping the land is what makes the conflict continue.
Keeping the land, settling it, redirecting the waterflow in the areas around the settlements etc. etc.<hr></blockquote>
You are making this a chicken ad the egg issue. Right now Palestine is the one that needs to back down first. They perpetrated the violence and they escalated it and continue to escalate it. What they do not seem to be getting is that it only hurts their cause more as it goes on. Israel was ready to back down on multiple occasions, in fact they are talking about backing down right now. Again. Any bets on when the next suicide/homicide bombing happens? I bet tomorrow we hear of another one, or at the latest, after Israel pulls back some more. I will be surprised if it lasts longer than a week. Israel did not start this, but they are winning it because they have to. It is a survival issue.
[quote]wow. What a source, a non governmental security organisation . This document has only historical relevance.<hr></blockquote>
and yours was so much better. Letters to and from the leaders that mean nothing as you cannot show me where they have been enacted into law. At least I showed you an exact duplicate of teh document in question. All you show is rhetoric and letters between enemies trying to make peace in public. Show me a better link to the PLO Charter (in english) that has the right for Israel to survive and exist in it and I will clam up on this part of the issue.
[quote]
So agression by certain palestinian groups makes a collective punish of all palestinian civilians by a proffesional army ok? get real...<hr></blockquote>
Remember vietnam? Guerilla fighting? This is quite similar. I can see how hard it would be for a professional soldier to know who the enemy was when anyone could be wearing a bomb under their clothes. Even women and girls now. What would you do in their place? Give the civies a hug?
[quote]
They wouldn't last for five minutes if the new government didn't want them there... IDF is a occupation army, not a peacekeeping army...<hr></blockquote>
They are both. Unfortunately Israel has not seen peace without the occupation part. It has been shown time and time again. And whenever the peace process starts to get off the ground Hamas or some other organization pulls out the carpet and blows up some more civilians. Don't ask me to cry for them. I cannot. I do however mourn for the entire situation.
[quote]I have never questioned US law, only inconsistent US foreign policy. The US hasn't wanted to see this as terrorism until now. Because Israel has been an important ally. Like South Africa once was. And things have never been this bad. But things are hopefully beginning to change now...<hr></blockquote>
Things are not changing. Israel is still an important ally. And things have not been this bad because Israel has been so weak on the terrorists that they only grew more bold in their bombings and terrorist activities. Israel has finally decided enough is enough. Why can you not see this?
[quote]In 1893, the British Consul advised his government of the value of importing trees from Jaffa to improve production in Australia and South Africa.
"In 1939, Palestine exported over 15 million cases of citrus fruit .
In 1942, Palestine produced nearly 305,000 tons of grains and legumes
In 1943, Palestine produced 280,000 tons of fruit, excluding citrus fruits
In 1945, Palestine had over 600,000 dunums of land planted with olive trees, producing nearly 80,000 tons of olives, and accounting for 1 percent of the olive oil production for the WORLD and produced nearly 245,000 tons of vegetables."
[A Survey of Palestine, for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Vol.I, 320,325-27,337 + additonal sources].<hr></blockquote>
So before 1913 one consul advised the government of the value of importing trees. All the rest are after that date. Also it does not state who is running the farms that is producing these crops. Could be Jews and Arabs both, (likely) and besides, I am not really interested in arguing this part as it is irrelevant. I found his floor statement to be interesting to read. I was not aware that our Senators took that much of an interest in Israel. So I merely passed it along.
[quote]
The last quote gave me a hard time since I couldn't seem to find where Yavnev Village is. But on my map it is called Yavneh, and the road from Gaza to there (not very long) is still small, and the area is the least populated part of the whole coast. The western part towards the sea is still seems kind of dessert like. Or maybe Beach-like is a better term... (?)
Anyway it's a quote taken completly out of context to make it "seem" like the whole coast was desserted while we in reality are talking about less than one fifth of the coastline, and from what I can tell the least populated part of the whole coast... A bit like saying the whole west coast is like southern california... shame!<hr></blockquote>
I merely answered the guys assault with the relevant quote. I have posted a link to the statement for anyone to read if interested. That is of course unless you would like me to post the entire article here?
[quote]BTW, how is that explanation on muslim anatomy going? <hr></blockquote>
Muslims actually in Mecca pray towards Mecca and with their Backs to Jerusalem. that is just how it is setup. No further explanation necessary.
Here is the closest I have found so far to an updated Charter of the PLO. They have highlighted the parts in bold that should be changed, but so far have not been. Until it is written into law, it means nothing. Even then it is arguable what effect it will really have.
Looking at article 33 I think I see why it has not been offically updated.
Article 33: This Charter shall not be amended save by [vote of] a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the National Congress of the Palestine Liberation Organization [taken] at a special session convened for that purpose.
Muslims actually in Mecca pray towards Mecca and with their Backs to Jerusalem. that is just how it is setup. No further explanation necessary.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In all my studying of geography and human anatomy, I fail to see how "that is just how it is setup" explains how someone can pray toward one place and away from another at any point on the globe. I know it's all semantics, but I'm genuinely curious, Noah
As for the history of the region, I think both sides need to deal with the reality of today. Israel is the victor in the many wars waged against it and they should be guaranteed enough land to make them secure and safe. Their will never be stability in the region unless there is a State called Palestine formed. Palestinians are going to have to give up some of what they want if they want a settlement. The losers of a war do not dictate to the winner terms of a peace settlement. Its time for the world to realize this-Israel is the victor country and all talks should start by treating Israel with more respect than it is given............................................. .....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Finally, sound and logical reasoning. A little better than the quasi-historical bullshi* that some people keep posting.
[quote] Right now Palestine is the one that needs to back down first. <hr></blockquote>
Back down from what? Their last rubble of stone? Arafat has already condemed every terrorist attack, and from where he is now (in prison), and the state of the PA policeforce (destroyed) he can't do much more.
[quote] It is a survival issue. <hr></blockquote>
I have a creepy feeling that you mean that in a Darwin sort of way...
[quote] All you show is rhetoric and letters between enemies trying to make peace in public. <hr></blockquote>
I have quoted a number of real sources. All you do is post links to religious fundamentalist... But I'll find you another document to not belive in...
[quote] Remember vietnam? Guerilla fighting? This is quite similar.<hr></blockquote>
Are you defending Vietnam...? And COMPARING it to this conflict!?! You are giving me the upper hand here. I seem to remember that the US got out of Vietnam.
[quote] Unfortunately Israel has not seen peace without the occupation part. <hr></blockquote>
This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...
[quote] Israel is still an important ally.<hr></blockquote>
Yes they are, but they won't be for ever. Allies come and go. And US foreign policy is changing.
[quote] So before 1913 one consul advised the government of the value of importing trees. <hr></blockquote>
It is far from one consul. But I picked one. Do you want more quotes? I have them going back to roman times...
[quote] I was not aware that our Senators took that much of an interest in Israel. <hr></blockquote>
Never heard of AIPAC then? Do a search on it and learn some more...
[quote]I merely answered the guys assault with the relevant quote. I have posted a link to the statement for anyone to read if interested. That is of course unless you would like me to post the entire article here? <hr></blockquote>
Why don't you admit that it was a constructed "fact". The whole article has worse retoric than you do...
[quote] Muslims actually in Mecca pray towards Mecca and with their Backs to Jerusalem. that is just how it is setup. No further explanation necessary. <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Can you make me a drawing, 'cause I stil don't understand how this applies to anyone but the people in a small part of the west bank...
[quote] Here is the closest I have found so far to an updated Charter of the PLO. They have highlighted the parts in bold that should be changed, but so far have not been. Until it is written into law, it means nothing. Even then it is arguable what effect it will really have. <hr></blockquote>
To make your argument worse, you post a link to a jewish historical society, but don't worry I'll find some decent documentation...
Can we get back on discussing some posible solutions to the conflict as well? Anyone think Powell can do anything? Or will another bomb (which is bound to come) set the situation back to square one?
Comments
<strong>
How do you suggest it be enforced? And you have defined separation of church and state as high-minded. You are aware that there are a lot of people over there who wouldn't accept that definition, aren't you? Someone else might think that dying for a cause is equally high-minded. Setting aside this debate over definitions, I haven't seen any "high-mindedness" on the Palestinian side and precious little of it on the Jewish side.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You post as if I am for this charade! Just because one does not put [sarcasm] statement [/sarcasm] does not mean he believes what he writes, I thought the sarcasm was clear in places but obviously it was not. There is no way to enforce such a rule. It has to be done by those in the nation, and it never will be so long as they cannot be made to enforce it.
I don't care how they define High-Minded, or my usage of it. It was used in a sarcastic way, or was intended to be. I don't see how separation of church and state has been so wonderful for the US. Except that it blocked the requirement that a people follow the religion setup by the government. Unfortunately it has been twisted by those in power and by lawyers and judges to mean, no religion in any way shape or form. Which is not what it was intended to mean. Seeing that from across the waters, would they pick up on that and cheer? No way! Thus, the sarcasm of the post.
- Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, 2,000 years before the rise of Islam in the 7th Century CE.
- Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for 1,000 years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. Even though other nations have ruled the land since 70 CE, there has always been a Jewish population in the land during the 1,900 years of dispsersion.
- Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordonians occupied Jerusalem they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
- The Hebrew prophets proclaimed a biblical covenant between the Jewish poeple and the land of Israel to last as long as the cosmic order (Jeremiah 31:35-36). The West Bank is bilical Judea and Samaria.
- Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Tanakh - the Jewish scriptures. It is not mentioned even one time in the Koran.
- King David made Jerusalem the capital of his United Kingdom. There is no record of Mohammad actually visiting Jerusalem.
- Jews Pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray towards Mecca, with their back towards Jerusalem
- During the years of the British Mandate (1917-1948) many Arabs, as well as Jews, moved to the area called Palestine. Haigher wages and living standards drew many Arabs from Syria and Egypt. Under the mandate both Jews and Arabs carried passports identifying them as "Palestinians".
- In 1922, 78% of the Mandate area became a Palestinian Arab area on the east bank of the Jordan River - later to be called Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
- In 1948, the Arabs refused the UN Partition Plan which would have given them the state they are asking for today. That year the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purget he land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
- The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms.
- The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 650,000. The number of Jewish refugees forced form Arab lands in the same time period is estimated to be approx. the same.
- Under Jordonian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
- The land of Israel is a geographic unit, fromthe Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea. If divided again, as it was before 1967, it would be virtually indefensible. It is also importnat to remember that the West Bank is the biblical heartland of Israel. The highlands giving strategic control to those who occupy them, the watershed, and without this territory Israel is only 9-15 miles wide along the coast.
- There was no peace when the West Bank and East Jerusalem were in Arab hands from 1948-1967. If, as is often suggested, the return of the West Bank to Arab or joint Jordonian/Palestinian control will bring peace to the Middle East, why then was there no peace when these territories were in Arab hands for nearly 20 years? If the PLO will be satisfied with autonomy in the West Bank, why was to PLO formed in 1964 when the West Bank was already under Arab control? Why did the Arab nations declare war on Israel in 1967 when they already possesed the West Bank? Perhaps it wa snot to liberate the Palestinians, but to destroy Israel.
- The PLO's charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Charter denies any right of self-government to the Jews. No Palestinian Arab moderates have come forth to propose changes in this basic documant of the Palestinian movement. The PLO leadership has always intended to control the whole area, not just the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO Charter has never been officially changed.
- There is reason to believe that a Palestinian state in the West Bank could easily become another Lebanon - filled with corruption, internal strife, and violence.
- Zionism began as a dream, in the face of a long history of anti-semitism, that a homeland would be created where all Jews who desired to do so would be able to settle in their ancient land in the midst of a supportive community. With continuing evidence of anti-semitism in the world today, it would be a tragic mistake for Israel to be so reduced in size as to prevent her from being a potential home for all Jews who want to emigrate.
- Does justice for the Palestinians necessarily mean forming a second Palestinian Arab state? (Such a state already exists in Jordan, where a very large majority of the citizens are Palestinians.) Many Palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity in the country of their choice. All the Arabs who want to make Israel their home should be treated well and justly by the Israeli authorities. In fact, while there are many legitimate grievances, Israel ahs generally treated the Palestinian population better than America has treated our native people and far better than Jordan, Syria, and Egypt has treated the Palestinians.
- Israel is the only democratic state in the area. There are at least 20 Arab states in the region and only one Jewish state.
- The refugee camps have been maintained and the Arab refugees kept there deliberately to pressure Israel. Consider how many refugees were settled in lands other than their place of birth after WWII.
- What would the authorities in our country do if faced with gangs of stone-throwing children and teenagers? Those gangs include snipers and armed soldiers interspersed with the youth. If these gangs were allowed to proceed unchallenged they would- and do - attack ordinary citizens. A responsible government is obliged to maintain order.
[ 04-15-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>Seven reasons why we should support Israel. A good read actually.
your facts stinks of the need for selfjustification. Here are some answers. Some of this has been posted before in this thread, I guess you didn't care to read everything? Some of it I wrote myself, some I copied.
[quote] Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, 2,000 years before the rise of Islam in the 7th Century CE.
Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for 1,000 years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. Even though other nations have ruled the land since 70 CE, there has always been a Jewish population in the land during the 1,900 years of dispsersion.
<hr></blockquote>
"The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine"
"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.
You are also confusing arabs and islam here. The arabs came with the jews...
[quote] Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordonians occupied Jerusalem they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.<hr></blockquote>
Jerusalem is the third holiest muslim city and the holiest Christian and jewish.
Jerusalem still isn't recognized as the Israeli capital by any nation or the UN.
[quote] The Hebrew prophets proclaimed a biblical covenant between the Jewish poeple and the land of Israel to last as long as the cosmic order (Jeremiah 31:35-36). The West Bank is bilical Judea and Samaria.
* Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Tanakh - the Jewish scriptures. It is not mentioned even one time in the Koran.
* King David made Jerusalem the capital of his United Kingdom. There is no record of Mohammad actually visiting Jerusalem.
* Jews Pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray towards Mecca, with their back towards Jerusalem.
<hr></blockquote>
So a Muslim in Indonesia has his back against Jerusalem while facing Mecca?
Interesting anatomic concept!
These arguments have no relevance. What about all the mentioning of Jerusalem in christian scriptures, maybe they should have it?
[quote] During the years of the British Mandate (1917-1948) many Arabs, as well as Jews, moved to the area called Palestine. Haigher wages and living standards drew many Arabs from Syria and Egypt. Under the mandate both Jews and Arabs carried passports identifying them as "Palestinians".<hr></blockquote>
the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314
[quote] In 1922, 78% of the Mandate area became a Palestinian Arab area on the east bank of the Jordan River - later to be called Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.<hr></blockquote>
The population of Jordan is ethnically different from that of Palestine. The Palestinians were descended from peoples that invaded or settled in Palestine both before and after the Arabs in the seventh century. The Jordanians (the Hashemites) were mainly descended from Arab tribes of the northwestern part of the Arabian Peninsula. Palestine and Jordan were also distinguishable by the fact that Transjordan was mostly nomadic while Palestine had 800 villages and two dozen towns.
[quote] In 1948, the Arabs refused the UN Partition Plan which would have given them the state they are asking for today. That year the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purget he land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.<hr></blockquote>
"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it- or its predecessors - actively created." Peretz Kidron
"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." [/I]Erskine Childers, British researcher[/I]
[quote] The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms.
*The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 650,000. The number of Jewish refugees forced form Arab lands in the same time period is estimated to be approx. the same.<hr></blockquote>
Only about 126,000 Oriental Jews (mostly from Iraq and Yemen) emigrated to Palestine in the two years immediately following an-Nakba in 1948. Still you might have had a point here. But your own arguments work against you. Are we supposed to belive that the palestinians left by their own free will to live in refugee camps while the arab jews were "forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms"? This is a totally biased statement.
The question is who started the agression? In general, Jews lived in harmony for 1300 years with their Muslim compatriots in the Arab-Islamic world.
[quote] Under Jordonian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.<hr></blockquote>
So the palestinians have access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, just a few km. away?
[quote] The land of Israel is a geographic unit, fromthe Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea. If divided again, as it was before 1967, it would be virtually indefensible. It is also importnat to remember that the West Bank is the biblical heartland of Israel. The highlands giving strategic control to those who occupy them, the watershed, and without this territory Israel is only 9-15 miles wide along the coast.<hr></blockquote>
Seems to me that it's the palestinians who need defence right now... This is why we need a real peace-treaty... Israel can't expect to keep land just for protection... They should re-occupy south-lebanon and sinai too then...
[quote] There was no peace when the West Bank and East Jerusalem were in Arab hands from 1948-1967. If, as is often suggested, the return of the West Bank to Arab or joint Jordonian/Palestinian control will bring peace to the Middle East, why then was there no peace when these territories were in Arab hands for nearly 20 years? If the PLO will be satisfied with autonomy in the West Bank, why was to PLO formed in 1964 when the West Bank was already under Arab control? Why did the Arab nations declare war on Israel in 1967 when they already possesed the West Bank? Perhaps it wa snot to liberate the Palestinians, but to destroy Israel.<hr></blockquote> Because the arab countries are ready to recognize Israel now. PLO has done for the last ten years.
[quote] The PLO's charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.<hr></blockquote>
No they don't, Israel also recognizes the PLO: <a href="http://www.usis-israel.org.il/publish/peace/isplorec.htm"; target="_blank">Read this!</a>
[quote] Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Charter denies any right of self-government to the Jews. No Palestinian Arab moderates have come forth to propose changes in this basic documant of the Palestinian movement. The PLO leadership has always intended to control the whole area, not just the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO Charter has never been officially changed.<hr></blockquote>
See above...
[quote] There is reason to believe that a Palestinian state in the West Bank could easily become another Lebanon - filled with corruption, internal strife, and violence.<hr></blockquote>
Yes... Israel has just turned the West Bank into another Lebanon... or another Beirut to be more precise... A total ruin, by israeli violence...
[quote] Zionism began as a dream, in the face of a long history of anti-semitism, that a homeland would be created where all Jews who desired to do so would be able to settle in their ancient land in the midst of a supportive community. With continuing evidence of anti-semitism in the world today, it would be a tragic mistake for Israel to be so reduced in size as to prevent her from being a potential home for all Jews who want to emigrate.<hr></blockquote>
While a dream in the beginning the consequense has been an apartheid state...
[quote] Does justice for the Palestinians necessarily mean forming a second Palestinian Arab state? (Such a state already exists in Jordan, where a very large majority of the citizens are Palestinians.) Many Palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity in the country of their choice. All the Arabs who want to make Israel their home should be treated well and justly by the Israeli authorities. In fact, while there are many legitimate grievances, Israel ahs generally treated the Palestinian population better than America has treated our native people and far better than Jordan, Syria, and Egypt has treated the Palestinians.<hr></blockquote>
So why havn't Israel given any democratic rights to yhe people of Gaza and the West Bank for the last 35 years? At least they havn't been forced to live in reservations? Is this your argument?
"The 1989 Israel High Court decision that any political party advocating full equality between Arab and Jew can be barred from fielding candidates in an election...[means] that the Israeli state is the state of the Jews...not their [the Arabs'] state." Professor Norman Finkelstein
[quote] Israel is the only democratic state in the area. There are at least 20 Arab states in the region and only one Jewish state.<hr></blockquote>
Yes? does beeing a democracy give Israel any more right to what it does? A Palestinian state would have to be democratic too, so then you would have two...
BTW, why doesn't Israel have a Constitution?
[quote] The refugee camps have been maintained and the Arab refugees kept there deliberately to pressure Israel. Consider how many refugees were settled in lands other than their place of birth after WWII.<hr></blockquote>
Right, and the palestinians think that just ok?
[quote] What would the authorities in our country do if faced with gangs of stone-throwing children and teenagers? Those gangs include snipers and armed soldiers interspersed with the youth. If these gangs were allowed to proceed unchallenged they would- and do - attack ordinary citizens. A responsible government is obliged to maintain order.<hr></blockquote>
So how do we solve this problem in the west? Oh, wait, we havn't had any 35 year long occupations in modern times...
Any occupied nation has under UN law the right to resist occupation. All occupied european nations resisted nazi-germany violently. This does not make terrorism right in any way. But Israels "war on terror" is nothing but terrorism in it self at the moment. Why? Read this:
''act of terrorism'' means an activity that -
(A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping;
Here is the whole <a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/3077.html"; target="_blank">US Legal definition</a> of terrorism...
I will only reply to afew so i dont waste my time
[quote] the PLO's charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Charter denies any right of self-government to the Jews <hr></blockquote>
no it does not. People in palestine call for that but not the leadership. I think once call is restored and a state established those voices will stop.
from PLO
[quote] The State of Palestine as a sovereign state has the right independently to define and conduct its foreign relations. The PLO will nevertheless seek to promote cooperation among Israel, Palestine, and neighboring States in fields of common interest. In order to promote cooperation among Israel, Palestine, and neighboring States, Palestine will seek cooperation in numerous fields, including: agriculture, and marine matters, arms control, communications, crime prevention, culture, economic relations, energy, environment, exploitation of natural resources, health, security, social security and welfare, sports, tourism and transportation.
<hr></blockquote>
All the arguments about the area beeing a desert before Israel was created. It's either lack of knowledge or an outright lie... "No orange groves"... The Jaffa orange was developed and made by palestinians way before 1900... "
In fact in 1946, Walter C. Lowdermilk, Assistant Chief of US Soil Conservation Service, examined Palestine, and compared it to California, except that "the soils of Palestine were uniformly better" ...
Jerusalem is the third holiest muslim city and the holiest Christian and jewish.
Jerusalem still isn't recognized as the Israeli capital by any nation or the UN.
Actually, Costa Rica does recognize Jerusalem as the capital.
As for the history of the region, I think both sides need to deal with the reality of today. Israel is the victor in the many wars waged against it and they should be guaranteed enough land to make them secure and safe. Their will never be stability in the region unless there is a State called Palestine formed. Palestinians are going to have to give up some of what they want if they want a settlement. The losers of a war do not dictate to the winner terms of a peace settlement. Its time for the world to realize this-Israel is the victor country and all talks should start by treating Israel with more respect than it is given............................................. .....
Jerusalem still isn't recognized as the Israeli capital by any nation or the UN.<hr></blockquote> Yet it is not mentioned in the Koran anywhere? Why is that? If it is so holy should it not be mentioned in their holy scriptures? Also on whether Jerusalem is the Captiol of Isreal.
<a href="http://www.ask.com/main/askjeeves.asp?ask=What+is+the+capitol+of+Israel&o= 0&fmt=" target="_blank">Ask Jeeves</a>
<a href="http://www.maps.com/cgi-bin/search/hyperseek.cgi?search=CAT&Category=Asia:Israel&Qu alifier=" target="_blank">Maps.com</a>
<a href="http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1018909498&view=unsearch&numhitsf ound=15&query=Capital%20of%20Israel&&docid=1370&do cdb=pr1996&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator =adj&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1" target="_blank">UN Document</a>
Now the UN Document does indeed agree with your assertion that they don not currently recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Unless they got their own way:
It was time for Israeli leaders in the peace camp to shape public opinion and to help Israelis understand that eventually, inevitably, Jerusalem would be shared. Jerusalem would be the capital of two States; Jerusalem could continue to be the capital of Israel and at the same time the capital of Palestine without harming in any way Israel's interests in the city. As the capital of both countries, Jerusalem would finally be recognized by the world as the seat of Israel's Government.
[quote]These arguments have no relevance. What about all the mentioning of Jerusalem in christian scriptures, maybe they should have it?<hr></blockquote>
Since the Christian Scriptures are derived from the Jewish texts this is a rediculous argument and you know it.
[quote]So the palestinians have access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, just a few km. away?<hr></blockquote>
Have they been denied access to Jerusalem? To any of their holy sites? I have seen nothing to say so. Unless of course they are wearing bombs strapped to their waist of course...
[quote]Seems to me that it's the palestinians who need defence right now... This is why we need a real peace-treaty... Israel can't expect to keep land just for protection... They should re-occupy south-lebanon and sinai too then...<hr></blockquote>
They would not need this if they would not have been the aggressors in all the past wars with Israel and if they were not committing terrorist acts even now as Israel and the rest of the world trys to bring peace tot he reagion. Israel has finally gotten fed up with all the political failures and has taken a much more aggressive stance. I cannot blame them, I cannot say I would do it any differently.
And why should they not keep land for protection? That is a big way to protect yourself from attackers is thorugh strategic places on the borders. Why give your attackers the upper hand? If the Palestinians had show any interest in just being peaceful neighbors this might be a moot point, but as of right now I see no peceful intent. Only hollow words of a leader who by all accounts seems to have lost control and bombs exploding in public areas in Israel.
[quote]Because the arab countries are ready to recognize Israel now. PLO has done for the last ten years.
AND
No they don't, Israel also recognizes the PLO: Read this!<hr></blockquote>
The words of two political leaders. Not official documents in the slightest. For a real copy of the PLO charter you need to look <a href="http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm"; target="_blank">Here.</a>
[quote]Yes... Israel has just turned the West Bank into another Lebanon... or another Beirut to be more precise... A total ruin, by israeli violence...<hr></blockquote>
And I still put it to you that this would not be the case if it were not for Palestinian aggression necessitating the armed forces protecting Israel be mobilized.
[quote]While a dream in the beginning the consequense has been an apartheid state...<hr></blockquote>
Caused by a Palestinian government that was unwilling to accept in the beginning that Israel had a right to the state that they now have. And their choice to deal with this through the use of terrorism and murder of innocents.
[quote]So how do we solve this problem in the west? Oh, wait, we havn't had any 35 year long occupations in modern times...<hr></blockquote>
The question stands. You sidestepped the question and tried to bring up a wholly different issue. We have a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan and are supposed to have UN forces inspecting Iraq. Is that also an occupation that Iraq and Afghanistan have the right to violently resist? Or is there a difference in the fact that we are protecting ourselves from something dangerous that makes it ok?
[quote]Any occupied nation has under UN law the right to resist occupation. All occupied european nations resisted nazi-germany violently. This does not make terrorism right in any way. But Israels "war on terror" is nothing but terrorism in it self at the moment. Why? Read this:
''act of terrorism'' means an activity that -
(A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping;
Here is the whole <a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/3077.html"; target="_blank">US Legal definition</a> of terrorism...<hr></blockquote>
So now US interpretation of Law matters to you? I thought we were off base on that law? I thought we were part of the problem? Which way is it? The US recognizes Israel's right to defend itself. The US does not see this defence as terrorism. We have a large issue of context which this law is being applied out of.
It seems pretty obvious that Israel is at a point where it has to chose between the land and security... At the moment the palestinians have nothing more to lose...
<strong>This Senator of yours is a joke... or at least his history education is...
All the arguments about the area beeing a desert before Israel was created. It's either lack of knowledge or an outright lie... "No orange groves"... The Jaffa orange was developed and made by palestinians way before 1900... "
In fact in 1946, Walter C. Lowdermilk, Assistant Chief of US Soil Conservation Service, examined Palestine, and compared it to California, except that "the soils of Palestine were uniformly better" ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
From the speech, Samuel Clemens quote:
A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.
The soil was rich, but the people were not doing much with it. It was neglected, sorely.
and this:
This is the report that the Palestinian Royal Commission, created by the British, made. It quotes an account of the conditions on the coastal plain along the Mediterranean Sea in 1913. This is the Palestinian Royal Commission. They said:
The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track, suitable for transport by camels or carts. No orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the Yavnev village. Houses were mud. Schools did not exist. The western part toward the sea was almost a desert. The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.
That was 1913.
<strong>You speak of Israel like it the Mob... Respect? Respect for what? More American made weapons?
It seems pretty obvious that Israel is at a point where it has to chose between the land and security... At the moment the palestinians have nothing more to lose...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only their lives and the respect of the international community which has begun wavering in their support of the underdog that bombs discos and parties, and civilians.
Yes all arguments based on biblical claims are quite silly...
[quote] Have they been denied access to Jerusalem? To any of their holy sites? I have seen nothing to say so. <hr></blockquote>Palestinians on the West Bank are denied access even to other places on the West Bank every day. And this has been going on for years.
[quote] And why should they not keep land for protection? <hr></blockquote>
Because keeping the land is what makes the conflict continue.
Keeping the land, settling it, redirecting the waterflow in the areas around the settlements etc. etc.
[quote] For a real copy of the PLO charter you need to look Here. <hr></blockquote>
wow. What a source, a non governmental security organisation . This document has only historical relevance.
[quote] And I still put it to you that this would not be the case if it were not for Palestinian aggression necessitating the armed forces protecting Israel be mobilized. <hr></blockquote>
So agression by certain palestinian groups makes a collective punish of all palestinian civilians by a proffesional army ok? get real...
[quote] You sidestepped the question [/[QUOTE]
I didn't sidestep the question. I stated that any occupied nation has the right to resist. A right both the US and the UN recognizes... Israel should have sidesteped the whole problem by pulling out years ago...
[QUOTE] We have a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan <hr></blockquote> They wouldn't last for five minutes if the new government didn't want them there... IDF is a occupation army, not a peacekeeping army...
[quote]So now US interpretation of Law matters to you? I thought we were off base on that law? I thought we were part of the problem? Which way is it? The US recognizes Israel's right to defend itself. The US does not see this defence as terrorism. We have a large issue of context which this law is being applied out of. <hr></blockquote>
I have never questioned US law, only inconsistent US foreign policy. The US hasn't wanted to see this as terrorism until now. Because Israel has been an important ally. Like South Africa once was. And things have never been this bad. But things are hopefully beginning to change now...
[quote] The soil was rich, but the people were not doing much with it. It was neglected, sorely. <hr></blockquote>
In 1893, the British Consul advised his government of the value of importing trees from Jaffa to improve production in Australia and South Africa.
"In 1939, Palestine exported over 15 million cases of citrus fruit .
In 1942, Palestine produced nearly 305,000 tons of grains and legumes
In 1943, Palestine produced 280,000 tons of fruit, excluding citrus fruits
In 1945, Palestine had over 600,000 dunums of land planted with olive trees, producing nearly 80,000 tons of olives, and accounting for 1 percent of the olive oil production for the WORLD and produced nearly 245,000 tons of vegetables."
[A Survey of Palestine, for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Vol.I, 320,325-27,337 + additonal sources].
[quote] ... The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track, suitable for transport by camels or carts. No orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the Yavnev village. Houses were mud. Schools did not exist. The western part toward the sea was almost a desert. The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.
That was 1913.<hr></blockquote>
The last quote gave me a hard time since I couldn't seem to find where Yavnev Village is. But on my map it is called Yavneh, and the road from Gaza to there (not very long) is still small, and the area is the least populated part of the whole coast. The western part towards the sea is still seems kind of dessert like. Or maybe Beach-like is a better term... (?)
Anyway it's a quote taken completly out of context to make it "seem" like the whole coast was desserted while we in reality are talking about less than one fifth of the coastline, and from what I can tell the least populated part of the whole coast... A bit like saying the whole west coast is like southern california... shame!
BTW, how is that explanation on muslim anatomy going?
[ 04-15-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
<strong>You speak of Israel like it the Mob... Respect? Respect for what? More American made weapons?
It seems pretty obvious that Israel is at a point where it has to chose between the land and security... At the moment the palestinians have nothing more to lose...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Respect because after the homicide bombings killed over 100 innocent civilians Israel could have squashed the palestinians like a bug. Any other country would have wiped them out......................
<strong>As for the history of the region, I think both sides need to deal with the reality of today. Israel is the victor in the many wars waged against it and they should be guaranteed enough land to make them secure and safe. Their will never be stability in the region unless there is a State called Palestine formed. Palestinians are going to have to give up some of what they want if they want a settlement. The losers of a war do not dictate to the winner terms of a peace settlement. Its time for the world to realize this-Israel is the victor country and all talks should start by treating Israel with more respect than it is given</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completely. Historical texts (especially the Bible, if it even can be considered a factual historical text) are always open to interpretation. Israel's main actions are in the name of security, agree with them or not.
And New, Israel's main weapon (the nuclear one), was given to them by the French, actually.
<strong>
And New, Israel's main weapon (the nuclear one), was given to them by the French, actually.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel developed her own nuclear weapons. Their was some French assistance at one point, but they pulled out leaving Israel to do the developement on her own.
Yes all arguments based on biblical claims are quite silly...<hr></blockquote>
I suppose to one who does not believe in biblical relevance they would seem that way. Fine.
[quote]Because keeping the land is what makes the conflict continue.
Keeping the land, settling it, redirecting the waterflow in the areas around the settlements etc. etc.<hr></blockquote>
You are making this a chicken ad the egg issue. Right now Palestine is the one that needs to back down first. They perpetrated the violence and they escalated it and continue to escalate it. What they do not seem to be getting is that it only hurts their cause more as it goes on. Israel was ready to back down on multiple occasions, in fact they are talking about backing down right now. Again. Any bets on when the next suicide/homicide bombing happens? I bet tomorrow we hear of another one, or at the latest, after Israel pulls back some more. I will be surprised if it lasts longer than a week. Israel did not start this, but they are winning it because they have to. It is a survival issue.
[quote]wow. What a source, a non governmental security organisation . This document has only historical relevance.<hr></blockquote>
and yours was so much better. Letters to and from the leaders that mean nothing as you cannot show me where they have been enacted into law. At least I showed you an exact duplicate of teh document in question. All you show is rhetoric and letters between enemies trying to make peace in public. Show me a better link to the PLO Charter (in english) that has the right for Israel to survive and exist in it and I will clam up on this part of the issue.
[quote]
So agression by certain palestinian groups makes a collective punish of all palestinian civilians by a proffesional army ok? get real...<hr></blockquote>
Remember vietnam? Guerilla fighting? This is quite similar. I can see how hard it would be for a professional soldier to know who the enemy was when anyone could be wearing a bomb under their clothes. Even women and girls now. What would you do in their place? Give the civies a hug?
[quote]
They wouldn't last for five minutes if the new government didn't want them there... IDF is a occupation army, not a peacekeeping army...<hr></blockquote>
They are both. Unfortunately Israel has not seen peace without the occupation part. It has been shown time and time again. And whenever the peace process starts to get off the ground Hamas or some other organization pulls out the carpet and blows up some more civilians. Don't ask me to cry for them. I cannot. I do however mourn for the entire situation.
[quote]I have never questioned US law, only inconsistent US foreign policy. The US hasn't wanted to see this as terrorism until now. Because Israel has been an important ally. Like South Africa once was. And things have never been this bad. But things are hopefully beginning to change now...<hr></blockquote>
Things are not changing. Israel is still an important ally. And things have not been this bad because Israel has been so weak on the terrorists that they only grew more bold in their bombings and terrorist activities. Israel has finally decided enough is enough. Why can you not see this?
[quote]In 1893, the British Consul advised his government of the value of importing trees from Jaffa to improve production in Australia and South Africa.
"In 1939, Palestine exported over 15 million cases of citrus fruit .
In 1942, Palestine produced nearly 305,000 tons of grains and legumes
In 1943, Palestine produced 280,000 tons of fruit, excluding citrus fruits
In 1945, Palestine had over 600,000 dunums of land planted with olive trees, producing nearly 80,000 tons of olives, and accounting for 1 percent of the olive oil production for the WORLD and produced nearly 245,000 tons of vegetables."
[A Survey of Palestine, for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Vol.I, 320,325-27,337 + additonal sources].<hr></blockquote>
So before 1913 one consul advised the government of the value of importing trees. All the rest are after that date. Also it does not state who is running the farms that is producing these crops. Could be Jews and Arabs both, (likely) and besides, I am not really interested in arguing this part as it is irrelevant. I found his floor statement to be interesting to read. I was not aware that our Senators took that much of an interest in Israel. So I merely passed it along.
[quote]
The last quote gave me a hard time since I couldn't seem to find where Yavnev Village is. But on my map it is called Yavneh, and the road from Gaza to there (not very long) is still small, and the area is the least populated part of the whole coast. The western part towards the sea is still seems kind of dessert like. Or maybe Beach-like is a better term... (?)
Anyway it's a quote taken completly out of context to make it "seem" like the whole coast was desserted while we in reality are talking about less than one fifth of the coastline, and from what I can tell the least populated part of the whole coast... A bit like saying the whole west coast is like southern california... shame!<hr></blockquote>
I merely answered the guys assault with the relevant quote. I have posted a link to the statement for anyone to read if interested. That is of course unless you would like me to post the entire article here?
[quote]BTW, how is that explanation on muslim anatomy going?
Muslims actually in Mecca pray towards Mecca and with their Backs to Jerusalem. that is just how it is setup. No further explanation necessary.
<a href="http://www.hsje.org/histo_documents/plo natl charter.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hsje.org/histo_documents/plo natl charter.htm</a>
Looking at article 33 I think I see why it has not been offically updated.
Article 33: This Charter shall not be amended save by [vote of] a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the National Congress of the Palestine Liberation Organization [taken] at a special session convened for that purpose.
[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
<strong>
Muslims actually in Mecca pray towards Mecca and with their Backs to Jerusalem. that is just how it is setup. No further explanation necessary.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In all my studying of geography and human anatomy, I fail to see how "that is just how it is setup" explains how someone can pray toward one place and away from another at any point on the globe. I know it's all semantics, but I'm genuinely curious, Noah
<strong>
As for the history of the region, I think both sides need to deal with the reality of today. Israel is the victor in the many wars waged against it and they should be guaranteed enough land to make them secure and safe. Their will never be stability in the region unless there is a State called Palestine formed. Palestinians are going to have to give up some of what they want if they want a settlement. The losers of a war do not dictate to the winner terms of a peace settlement. Its time for the world to realize this-Israel is the victor country and all talks should start by treating Israel with more respect than it is given............................................. .....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Finally, sound and logical reasoning. A little better than the quasi-historical bullshi* that some people keep posting.
Back down from what? Their last rubble of stone? Arafat has already condemed every terrorist attack, and from where he is now (in prison), and the state of the PA policeforce (destroyed) he can't do much more.
[quote] It is a survival issue. <hr></blockquote>
I have a creepy feeling that you mean that in a Darwin sort of way...
[quote] All you show is rhetoric and letters between enemies trying to make peace in public. <hr></blockquote>
I have quoted a number of real sources. All you do is post links to religious fundamentalist... But I'll find you another document to not belive in...
[quote] Remember vietnam? Guerilla fighting? This is quite similar.<hr></blockquote>
Are you defending Vietnam...? And COMPARING it to this conflict!?! You are giving me the upper hand here. I seem to remember that the US got out of Vietnam.
[quote] Unfortunately Israel has not seen peace without the occupation part. <hr></blockquote>
This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...
[quote] Israel is still an important ally.<hr></blockquote>
Yes they are, but they won't be for ever. Allies come and go. And US foreign policy is changing.
[quote] So before 1913 one consul advised the government of the value of importing trees. <hr></blockquote>
It is far from one consul. But I picked one. Do you want more quotes? I have them going back to roman times...
[quote] I was not aware that our Senators took that much of an interest in Israel. <hr></blockquote>
Never heard of AIPAC then? Do a search on it and learn some more...
[quote]I merely answered the guys assault with the relevant quote. I have posted a link to the statement for anyone to read if interested. That is of course unless you would like me to post the entire article here? <hr></blockquote>
Why don't you admit that it was a constructed "fact". The whole article has worse retoric than you do...
[quote] Muslims actually in Mecca pray towards Mecca and with their Backs to Jerusalem. that is just how it is setup. No further explanation necessary. <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Can you make me a drawing, 'cause I stil don't understand how this applies to anyone but the people in a small part of the west bank...
[quote] Here is the closest I have found so far to an updated Charter of the PLO. They have highlighted the parts in bold that should be changed, but so far have not been. Until it is written into law, it means nothing. Even then it is arguable what effect it will really have. <hr></blockquote>
To make your argument worse, you post a link to a jewish historical society, but don't worry I'll find some decent documentation...
Can we get back on discussing some posible solutions to the conflict as well? Anyone think Powell can do anything? Or will another bomb (which is bound to come) set the situation back to square one?
[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>