[quote]I admit its not a productive argument but What I tried to show KILLA is that whats wrong with Irvine is not to say bad things about jews but to deny what really happens. And what really happens right now is that innoncent Palestinian individuals are suffering and dying.
And what should I do with KILLAs arguments? Write "I think you stepped over the line here" every time he does so? I would be repeating those words a lot.<hr></blockquote>
So instead you take the arguments to what you see as his level. Brilliant.
By them I assume (or rather hope) you mean Red Crescent (I falsely called them "red half moon" before). I have NEVER heard of any incident where they have used their status for anything like what Israel is claiming. They are as clean as the Red Cross.
<hr></blockquote>
</strong>
Sorry Anders .. I agree with a lot of what you are saying , but the sad fact is that the red crescent has been caught transporting weapons and explosives for militants.
On one occasion soldiers at a road block found an explosive belt ( like the one all those suicide bombers use) hidden under a wounded boy in a red crescent ambulance.... this is a crazy war indeed !!! .
This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...
<hr></blockquote>
Regardless of weather I agree with you or not , your facts are just plain wrong,
1. Most of the recent attacks have been
masterminded by Arafat's - Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, these guys are directly answerable to Marwan Braguti ( who was arrested the other day by the IDF) who is one of Arafat's closest men.
2. Israel had a security cooperation agreement with the PA for years after the Oslo accords but we still had loads of bombings.
3. The current operation HAS worked in that its hugely diminished Israelis chances of being blown to bits while taking their kids to school...
In the Past 3 weeks (since the operation began) there have been 2 suicide attacks
before that when Israel was pulling its forces back and tried to comply with all of the US's measures for a ceasefire it had 2 bombings and shootings a day ... in the month previous to the current operation more the 150 Israelis have been killed and over a thousand wounded ... and that was when Israel was being nice....
Think of how Sweden or Norway would react to having 150 of their citizens killed in one month by suicide bombers.....
[quote] On one occasion soldiers at a road block found an explosive belt ( like the one all those suicide bombers use) hidden under a wounded boy in a red crescent ambulance. <hr></blockquote>
Could you please point to some source who can confirm this, because I recently read that the Red Cross did a thourogh check on this and found that there was no hold in these claims...
[quote] Most of the recent attacks have been
masterminded by Arafat's - Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, these guys are directly answerable to Marwan Braguti <hr></blockquote>
Again, please post some sources. The Al Aqsa Brigade are Fatha members who operate on the outside of tha fatha structure. Which btw, is nothing more than a loose umbrella organisation. Some of the fractions of fahta are clearly far beyond Arafats control.
[quote] 2. Israel had a security cooperation agreement with the PA for years after the Oslo accords but we still had loads of bombings. <hr></blockquote>
Well, first you have to prove that the PA is actually responsible for the bombings.
Secondly, Israel has not upheld its part of the deal.
[quote] 3. The current operation HAS worked in that its hugely diminished Israelis chances of being blown to bits while taking their kids to school...
In the Past 3 weeks (since the operation began) there have been 2 suicide attacks
before that when Israel was pulling its forces back and tried to comply with all of the US's measures for a ceasefire it had 2 bombings and shootings a day ... in the month previous to the current operation more the 150 Israelis have been killed and over a thousand wounded ... and that was when Israel was being nice.... <hr></blockquote> The bombings escalated with the Israeli bulid up and the begining of the incursions into the territories.
The main question here is how many more young palestinians have signed up to be suicide bombers after Jenin and the other incursions...
The years just after Oslo where the most secure till now. But at the same time Israel did not do its part to confirm the peace. They actually expanded the settlements instead of reducing them, as they had promised.
A interesting side-note here is that Sharon was in charge of the settlement policy of Israel before he was elected primeminister...
[quote]Think of how Sweden or Norway would react to having 150 of their citizens killed in one month by suicide bombers. <hr></blockquote>
I only know that the norwegian resistance bombed the german occupation forces during the five years they where in the country.
It is so totally NOT OK for Israeli civilians to be killed by Palestinian terrorists.
It is just fine for Palestinian civilians (terrorists) to be killed by the Israeli military.
It is so OK for Israel to defend itself against Palestinian terrorist attacks
It is unacceptable for Palestinian terrorists to defend themselves from having their homes, farms and villages being demolished.
It is acceptable for Israeli military to defend their land and people against attacks by Palestinian terrorists
It is fine to supply arms to Israeli military to kill people with, yet it is not OK for arms to be supplied to the Palestinian terrorists to kill people with.
An Israeli life is sanctified: a Palestinian life is dispensible.
All Israelis are upstanding humans: All Palestinians are terrorists
you have to learn to live with them... like it or not. you have to find a way to afford yer average palestinian neighbor a meaningful way of life and a nice enough place to live so they won't consider strapping bombs on themselves.
you know... fer the ghetto children,
cuss
p.s. it's a class struggle... and guess what... they get to decide who their leader is... not you.
[quote]Did they also bomb German civilians?<hr></blockquote>
Well, there wern't that many german civilians in Norway. But the most heroic act in norway of the war, was the sinking of a ferry that carried norwegian heavy water destined for germany (to make the atomic bomb). This is viewed as an heroic act, but there where a lot of civilians on that ferry... Also, the treatment of girls who got together with german soldiers (and their children) is not something norwegians are proud of today.
There is no such thing as a moraly "clean" war... There where attrocities on both sides back then, like there is now. Look at how US soldiers behaved in Vietnam. The question is simpel: who is the agressor? and what cause are the parties fighting for?
The Palestinians are fighting for freedom. The Israelis are defending their 35 year old occupation. If you cannot see this, you are blinded by the retorics of the movement. I've been following the conflict for over 10 years. And the israelis are using 9/11 for everything its worth... like OBL was using the palestinians cause for everything it was worth... And Sadam etc. etc.
If there is one thing that remains the same, its that the palestinians, like all weak parties, always end up loosing more. Their only hope lies in not giving up their fight for freedom. Eventually, like in South Africa, East-Timor and Kosovo, they might win through.
It is just so hard for us to admit the simmilarity between the Tibetan cause, and the cause of some dirty arab fundametalist who fight a nobel, western people that have suffered so much...
you have to find a way to afford yer average palestinian neighbor a meaningful way of life and a nice enough place to live so they won't consider strapping bombs on themselves.
I Agree. But you try to get them freak'n Saudis to allocate some money and some land to resolve this problem. God knows they have enough of both.
As we are talking about suicide bombings; I found this in a israeli newspaper today:
[quote] Yifrah, 68, a retired arts teacher and sculptor, has been attending Remembrance Day ceremonies on Mount Herzl for more than 50 years. He was just 12 years old when his brother was killed during the War of Independence, as part of a group of 17 soldiers from the Palmach's engineering unit whose assignment was to mine a bridge near Ramallah.
En route to carry out this mission, the unit was ambushed by Arab guerrillas. The Palmach men were encircled and beaten. Mordechai Yifrah, a 17 year old, pulled the clips off eight hand grenades and waited for the Arab soldiers to advance - he blew himself up with some of the would-be captors.
Avraham grew up in awe of this story of his brother's heroism. On Tuesday he stood at his brother's grave and read from the Book of Psalms, printed in a book which his family printed for his son Mordechai's wedding. Avraham's son is named after his late uncle. <hr></blockquote>
So it was a combat situation, and no civilians where involved. But still, it has always been this way...
The Israelis are defending their 35 year old occupation. If you cannot see this, you are blinded by the retorics of the movement.
<hr></blockquote>
Sorry mate, your talking complete bollocks just like that stupid Idiot calling himself Mika ....
I am an Israeli, 90% of Israelis surveyed do NOT want the occupation to continue ! we want the Palestinians to have their land! FFS we have been negotiating with them for over 8 years now about this.
So dont feed me with this Palestinian propaganda !
Isarel has offered the PA so many opportunities for independance and freedom but they think that through violence they can get more .... well its not going to work,
I believe in ending the occupation and in removing the settlements but not like this.
If they want to talk, Israel will talk if they want to fight we know how to fight !
Israel didnt start this violence.
Ill say it again ISAREL WANTS TO END THE OCCUPATION !
Israel has done lots of shit along the years and many Israelis do not agree with many policies but NOTHING that Israel has done justifies the self destructive Palestinian behaviour.
Comparing expanding the settlements with suicide bombing is simply ridiculous, now you understand why Israelis are so suspicious about European attempts to mediate between the sides.
Sorry mate, your talking complete bollocks just like that stupid Idiot calling himself Mika ....
I am an Israeli, 90% of Israelis surveyed do NOT want the occupation to continue ! we want the Palestinians to have their land! FFS we have been negotiating with them for over 8 years now about this.
So dont feed me with this Palestinian propaganda !<hr></blockquote>
It's not bollocks. I was reffering to the PAST 35 YEARS... The occupation has lasted longer than most of our lives. Get it? What kind of timetable is that?
[quote]
Isarel has offered the PA so many opportunities for independance and freedom but they think that through violence they can get more .... well its not going to work,
I believe in ending the occupation and in removing the settlements but not like this.
If they want to talk, Israel will talk if they want to fight we know how to fight !
Israel didnt start this violence.
Ill say it again ISAREL WANTS TO END THE OCCUPATION !
<hr></blockquote>
well your country sure know how to make an ending exiting...
I have no sympathy for your arguments. You elected a guy stained with previous war-crimes as a leader... This guy has FIGHT THE ARABS written all over him. He always has...
[quote]
Israel has done lots of shit along the years and many Israelis do not agree with many policies but NOTHING that Israel has done justifies the self destructive Palestinian behaviour.
Comparing expanding the settlements with suicide bombing is simply ridiculous, now you understand why Israelis are so suspicious about European attempts to mediate between the sides. <hr></blockquote>
I'm not just talking about settlements. I'm also talking about this:
(and how new suicide attacks will come frome it)
[quote]
It is totally destroyed, it looks like an earthquake has hit it," he said.
Aid agencies now have access to Jenin
"I am watching two brothers pull their father from the ruins, the stench of death is horrible. We are seeing a 12-year-old boy being dug out, totally burned," he said.
"We have expert people here who have been in war zones and earthquakes and they say they have never seen anything like it," he added.
Mr Roed-Larsen, who is the UN's Special Co-ordinator for the occupied Palestinian territories, was visiting the camp with Red Cross and UN workers.
He added: "It is totally unacceptable that the government of Israel for 11 days did not allow search and rescue teams to come." <hr></blockquote>
Comments
Huh? This is not my thread.<hr></blockquote>
No, but the one you linked to was.
[quote]I admit its not a productive argument but What I tried to show KILLA is that whats wrong with Irvine is not to say bad things about jews but to deny what really happens. And what really happens right now is that innoncent Palestinian individuals are suffering and dying.
And what should I do with KILLAs arguments? Write "I think you stepped over the line here" every time he does so? I would be repeating those words a lot.<hr></blockquote>
So instead you take the arguments to what you see as his level. Brilliant.
<strong>
[quote]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe the Israelis. I'll admit that the ambulance could've just had wounded people, but considering their past record, I believe them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By them I assume (or rather hope) you mean Red Crescent (I falsely called them "red half moon" before). I have NEVER heard of any incident where they have used their status for anything like what Israel is claiming. They are as clean as the Red Cross.
<hr></blockquote>
</strong>
Sorry Anders .. I agree with a lot of what you are saying , but the sad fact is that the red crescent has been caught transporting weapons and explosives for militants.
On one occasion soldiers at a road block found an explosive belt ( like the one all those suicide bombers use) hidden under a wounded boy in a red crescent ambulance.... this is a crazy war indeed !!! .
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately Israel has not seen peace without the occupation part.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...
<hr></blockquote>
Regardless of weather I agree with you or not , your facts are just plain wrong,
1. Most of the recent attacks have been
masterminded by Arafat's - Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, these guys are directly answerable to Marwan Braguti ( who was arrested the other day by the IDF) who is one of Arafat's closest men.
2. Israel had a security cooperation agreement with the PA for years after the Oslo accords but we still had loads of bombings.
3. The current operation HAS worked in that its hugely diminished Israelis chances of being blown to bits while taking their kids to school...
In the Past 3 weeks (since the operation began) there have been 2 suicide attacks
before that when Israel was pulling its forces back and tried to comply with all of the US's measures for a ceasefire it had 2 bombings and shootings a day ... in the month previous to the current operation more the 150 Israelis have been killed and over a thousand wounded ... and that was when Israel was being nice....
Think of how Sweden or Norway would react to having 150 of their citizens killed in one month by suicide bombers.....
What else can Israel do ?
Could you please point to some source who can confirm this, because I recently read that the Red Cross did a thourogh check on this and found that there was no hold in these claims...
[quote] Most of the recent attacks have been
masterminded by Arafat's - Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, these guys are directly answerable to Marwan Braguti <hr></blockquote>
Again, please post some sources. The Al Aqsa Brigade are Fatha members who operate on the outside of tha fatha structure. Which btw, is nothing more than a loose umbrella organisation. Some of the fractions of fahta are clearly far beyond Arafats control.
[quote] 2. Israel had a security cooperation agreement with the PA for years after the Oslo accords but we still had loads of bombings. <hr></blockquote>
Well, first you have to prove that the PA is actually responsible for the bombings.
Secondly, Israel has not upheld its part of the deal.
[quote] 3. The current operation HAS worked in that its hugely diminished Israelis chances of being blown to bits while taking their kids to school...
In the Past 3 weeks (since the operation began) there have been 2 suicide attacks
before that when Israel was pulling its forces back and tried to comply with all of the US's measures for a ceasefire it had 2 bombings and shootings a day ... in the month previous to the current operation more the 150 Israelis have been killed and over a thousand wounded ... and that was when Israel was being nice.... <hr></blockquote> The bombings escalated with the Israeli bulid up and the begining of the incursions into the territories.
The main question here is how many more young palestinians have signed up to be suicide bombers after Jenin and the other incursions...
The years just after Oslo where the most secure till now. But at the same time Israel did not do its part to confirm the peace. They actually expanded the settlements instead of reducing them, as they had promised.
A interesting side-note here is that Sharon was in charge of the settlement policy of Israel before he was elected primeminister...
[quote]Think of how Sweden or Norway would react to having 150 of their citizens killed in one month by suicide bombers. <hr></blockquote>
I only know that the norwegian resistance bombed the german occupation forces during the five years they where in the country.
Did they also bomb German civilians?
peace boys... now... or i'll skewer ya...
cuss aka brakula
It is just fine for Palestinian civilians (terrorists) to be killed by the Israeli military.
It is so OK for Israel to defend itself against Palestinian terrorist attacks
It is unacceptable for Palestinian terrorists to defend themselves from having their homes, farms and villages being demolished.
It is acceptable for Israeli military to defend their land and people against attacks by Palestinian terrorists
It is fine to supply arms to Israeli military to kill people with, yet it is not OK for arms to be supplied to the Palestinian terrorists to kill people with.
An Israeli life is sanctified: a Palestinian life is dispensible.
All Israelis are upstanding humans: All Palestinians are terrorists
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
mika.
you have to learn to live with them... like it or not. you have to find a way to afford yer average palestinian neighbor a meaningful way of life and a nice enough place to live so they won't consider strapping bombs on themselves.
you know... fer the ghetto children,
cuss
p.s. it's a class struggle... and guess what... they get to decide who their leader is... not you.
Well, there wern't that many german civilians in Norway. But the most heroic act in norway of the war, was the sinking of a ferry that carried norwegian heavy water destined for germany (to make the atomic bomb). This is viewed as an heroic act, but there where a lot of civilians on that ferry... Also, the treatment of girls who got together with german soldiers (and their children) is not something norwegians are proud of today.
There is no such thing as a moraly "clean" war... There where attrocities on both sides back then, like there is now. Look at how US soldiers behaved in Vietnam. The question is simpel: who is the agressor? and what cause are the parties fighting for?
The Palestinians are fighting for freedom. The Israelis are defending their 35 year old occupation. If you cannot see this, you are blinded by the retorics of the movement. I've been following the conflict for over 10 years. And the israelis are using 9/11 for everything its worth... like OBL was using the palestinians cause for everything it was worth... And Sadam etc. etc.
If there is one thing that remains the same, its that the palestinians, like all weak parties, always end up loosing more. Their only hope lies in not giving up their fight for freedom. Eventually, like in South Africa, East-Timor and Kosovo, they might win through.
It is just so hard for us to admit the simmilarity between the Tibetan cause, and the cause of some dirty arab fundametalist who fight a nobel, western people that have suffered so much...
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
you have to find a way to afford yer average palestinian neighbor a meaningful way of life and a nice enough place to live so they won't consider strapping bombs on themselves.
I Agree. But you try to get them freak'n Saudis to allocate some money and some land to resolve this problem. God knows they have enough of both.
mika.
it's yours.
Because Israelis have an inherent right to the land... yeah with idiots like you I can see this never getting resolved.
and all the sudden... i feel like asking canada to solve our drug problem.
if they weren't so inept,
me
[quote] Yifrah, 68, a retired arts teacher and sculptor, has been attending Remembrance Day ceremonies on Mount Herzl for more than 50 years. He was just 12 years old when his brother was killed during the War of Independence, as part of a group of 17 soldiers from the Palmach's engineering unit whose assignment was to mine a bridge near Ramallah.
En route to carry out this mission, the unit was ambushed by Arab guerrillas. The Palmach men were encircled and beaten. Mordechai Yifrah, a 17 year old, pulled the clips off eight hand grenades and waited for the Arab soldiers to advance - he blew himself up with some of the would-be captors.
Avraham grew up in awe of this story of his brother's heroism. On Tuesday he stood at his brother's grave and read from the Book of Psalms, printed in a book which his family printed for his son Mordechai's wedding. Avraham's son is named after his late uncle. <hr></blockquote>
So it was a combat situation, and no civilians where involved. But still, it has always been this way...
According to Sharon, 45 Palestinians died at Jenin.
From those photographs and the initial reports coming from there, its looks like that may be an understatement.
The Israelis are defending their 35 year old occupation. If you cannot see this, you are blinded by the retorics of the movement.
<hr></blockquote>
Sorry mate, your talking complete bollocks just like that stupid Idiot calling himself Mika ....
I am an Israeli, 90% of Israelis surveyed do NOT want the occupation to continue ! we want the Palestinians to have their land! FFS we have been negotiating with them for over 8 years now about this.
So dont feed me with this Palestinian propaganda !
Isarel has offered the PA so many opportunities for independance and freedom but they think that through violence they can get more .... well its not going to work,
I believe in ending the occupation and in removing the settlements but not like this.
If they want to talk, Israel will talk if they want to fight we know how to fight !
Israel didnt start this violence.
Ill say it again ISAREL WANTS TO END THE OCCUPATION !
Israel has done lots of shit along the years and many Israelis do not agree with many policies but NOTHING that Israel has done justifies the self destructive Palestinian behaviour.
Comparing expanding the settlements with suicide bombing is simply ridiculous, now you understand why Israelis are so suspicious about European attempts to mediate between the sides.
Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm</a>;
According to Sharon, 45 Palestinians died at Jenin.
From those photographs and the initial reports coming from there, its looks like that may be an understatement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Funny cos the palestinians said it was something like 500 ..... goes to show....
BTW almost all bodies found appear to be members of Hamas and Jihad Islami ( the most exteme Islamic groups)
we'll be sending war crimes inspectors over... i've heard close to 200 innocents were mass buried...
oh that fog of war,
cuss
p.s. i pray it's not that high.
The Israelis are defending their 35 year old occupation. If you cannot see this, you are blinded by the retorics of the movement.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sorry mate, your talking complete bollocks just like that stupid Idiot calling himself Mika ....
I am an Israeli, 90% of Israelis surveyed do NOT want the occupation to continue ! we want the Palestinians to have their land! FFS we have been negotiating with them for over 8 years now about this.
So dont feed me with this Palestinian propaganda !<hr></blockquote>
It's not bollocks. I was reffering to the PAST 35 YEARS... The occupation has lasted longer than most of our lives. Get it? What kind of timetable is that?
[quote]
Isarel has offered the PA so many opportunities for independance and freedom but they think that through violence they can get more .... well its not going to work,
I believe in ending the occupation and in removing the settlements but not like this.
If they want to talk, Israel will talk if they want to fight we know how to fight !
Israel didnt start this violence.
Ill say it again ISAREL WANTS TO END THE OCCUPATION !
<hr></blockquote>
well your country sure know how to make an ending exiting...
I have no sympathy for your arguments. You elected a guy stained with previous war-crimes as a leader... This guy has FIGHT THE ARABS written all over him. He always has...
[quote]
Israel has done lots of shit along the years and many Israelis do not agree with many policies but NOTHING that Israel has done justifies the self destructive Palestinian behaviour.
Comparing expanding the settlements with suicide bombing is simply ridiculous, now you understand why Israelis are so suspicious about European attempts to mediate between the sides. <hr></blockquote>
I'm not just talking about settlements. I'm also talking about this:
(and how new suicide attacks will come frome it)
[quote]
It is totally destroyed, it looks like an earthquake has hit it," he said.
Aid agencies now have access to Jenin
"I am watching two brothers pull their father from the ruins, the stench of death is horrible. We are seeing a 12-year-old boy being dug out, totally burned," he said.
"We have expert people here who have been in war zones and earthquakes and they say they have never seen anything like it," he added.
Mr Roed-Larsen, who is the UN's Special Co-ordinator for the occupied Palestinian territories, was visiting the camp with Red Cross and UN workers.
He added: "It is totally unacceptable that the government of Israel for 11 days did not allow search and rescue teams to come." <hr></blockquote>
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>