I think somepeople won't rest until there is the complete obliteration and humiliation of Israel. But that's the way it has been for a long time. People need someone to blame. Jews have been the scapegoats for centuries.
"I can't find a job. Damn Jews keeping me back!"
"Why is our country in such bad shape? It's those dirty Jews!"
"I waste all my money at the doctor... greedy jews!"
"I'll tell you why there's so much crime... the Jewish mafia, that's who!"
"Gas is so expensive. So the jews can send their kids to college."
"I was abductded by aliens and anally probed... surely a jewish conspiracy."
I heare it all the time in the USA. I can only imagine how much worse the attitude is in Europe and abroad. Some hick the otherday was telling me how he hasn't gotten a raise in 2 years, because the jews want to keep all the money to themselves. Mind you he missed 14 days of work the previous year.
[quote] I heare it all the time in the USA. I can only imagine how much worse the attitude is in Europe and abroad. <hr></blockquote>
Beeing european I've almost never heard a bad word about jews...
Scandinavia might be differnet from the rest of Europe, but it sounds like things are worse in the US... How is the general attitude towards muslims? Not to good either I imagine?
I heare it all the time in the USA. I can only imagine how much worse the attitude is in Europe and abroad. Some hick the otherday was telling me how he hasn't gotten a raise in 2 years, because the jews want to keep all the money to themselves. Mind you he missed 14 days of work the previous year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I NEVER hear anything like what you described here in Denmark and I doubt very much that it is common in northern europe. If anyone is targeted here its people from muslim countries.
And I can´t understand why "everyone" is using Israel and Jews as were they synonyms. Just one week ago there was a jewish demonstration against the occupation of the Palestinian areas in front of the Israeli embassy in Copenhagen.
The former editor of one of our largest newspapers just started a collection to fund the hospital in Ramallah. He is a jew living in Tel Aviv, he fought in the first wars in Israels history and his son was one of the initial forces behind the Oslo peace process. He argues that Israel has made it impossible for the Palestinian authorities to run the hospital and people suffer because of that and that what Israel is doing right now is against all what he believe.
In all my studying of geography and human anatomy, I fail to see how "that is just how it is setup" explains how someone can pray toward one place and away from another at any point on the globe. I know it's all semantics, but I'm genuinely curious, Noah</strong><hr></blockquote>
Failing to read that I said in Mecca. Not anywhere in the world. The first time it was written it was very open to your nitpicking. The second time I limited the scope to Mecca itself.If you cannot see that limit you are abviously just trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. Whatever. I am done with anatomy and nitpicking therein.
Failing to read that I said in Mecca. Not anywhere in the world. The first time it was written it was very open to your nitpicking. The second time I limited the scope to Mecca itself.If you cannot see that limit you are abviously just trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. Whatever. I am done with anatomy and nitpicking therein.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I reread it, and yes, you did say that. Sorry for bothering you.
Back down from what? Their last rubble of stone? Arafat has already condemed every terrorist attack, and from where he is now (in prison), and the state of the PA policeforce (destroyed) he can't do much more.<hr></blockquote>
As I have stated, Arafat is irrelevant now. I may not have come riight out and said it, but my posts have all been leaning that way. His people are not listening to him and the only reason he is in the limelight is as a scapegoat. He got his people in over their heads, and now he can do nothing about it. His people are also Palestinians, correct? His police force is also part of the problem, as they do not follow his orders either unless it suits them. You can find instances of this all over. Israel see this, and so do many others.
[quote]I have a creepy feeling that you mean that in a Darwin sort of way...<hr></blockquote>
I have a creepy feeling you are wrong. Israel has the upper hand here because of their military and because of the Palestinians stupidity and squandering of what they had. At one time they had Israel outmanned and outgunned. This is not the case anymore and has not been for a while. However they are still purposely poking them in the eye with a big stick and then crying when Israel hits them over the head with a bat.
[quote]I have quoted a number of real sources. All you do is post links to religious fundamentalist... But I'll find you another document to not belive in...<hr></blockquote>
I have been as fair as you have. You show one side I show the other. The truth is in the middle likely. Funny thing that the PA's website is down so I cannot link to them directly. However, the Google cache that I found looked like a verbatim quote of the rhetoric you have been saying to me. I guess you would be proud to hear that...
[quote]Are you defending Vietnam...? And COMPARING it to this conflict!?! You are giving me the upper hand here. I seem to remember that the US got out of Vietnam.<hr></blockquote>
You miss the point. Where is the suprise in that? Vietnam itself was necessary but bungled terribly. It was a war run by diplomats and politicians. If they had let the military run the war we would have been done with it sooner. how about Afghanistan? Everyone was saying, "Oh no! Another Vietnam, we will be there forever and end up losting." Shortest Vietnam ever.
The comparison, however was not on that level. Israel has been not really fighting the terrorism that has been hitting them directly until recently. And now they find that their enemy could be anyone, from the kid on the corner to the old man getting on the bus. Makes the job of protecting their people quite a bit more difficult. So everyone says, so pull out and leave those poor Palestinians alone then. Then you are back to every time they do that the bombings increase again and they have to go back in and put down the terrorists yet again. But that is not your problem is it?
[quote]This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...<hr></blockquote>
Wow, how shortsighted that is... Those who cannot remember history... Even recent history.
[quote]Yes they are, but they won't be for ever. Allies come and go. And US foreign policy is changing.<hr></blockquote>
The day Israel ceases to be an ally of the US will be the day I move to Israel. One thing I have found is that those that go against Israel have very bad things happen to them. Even very powerful nations. You can look at it biblically or historically. And you can laugh or deride me all you want. If the US dumps Israel things will not go well. Guaranteed.
[quote]It is far from one consul. But I picked one. Do you want more quotes? I have them going back to roman times...
Why don't you admit that it was a constructed "fact". The whole article has worse retoric than you do...<hr></blockquote>
I don't care about his constructed facts or the GNP of Olive oil from Lebanon or whatever. I found the speech to be interesting. I did not say the guy was a world historian, nor did I say he was 100% correct. I merely linked to his statement and said I found it to be an interesting read. You don't like it, fine.
[quote]Never heard of AIPAC then? Do a search on it and learn some more...<hr></blockquote>
I just might.
[quote] Can you make me a drawing, 'cause I stil don't understand how this applies to anyone but the people in a small part of the west bank...<hr></blockquote>
I'm done on this issue. You are like a dog with a bone.
[quote]To make your argument worse, you post a link to a jewish historical society, but don't worry I'll find some decent documentation...<hr></blockquote>
How is it worse? Did you even read the site? They painted this in the best possible light. They even stated about the letters you quoted and how things should be better now. They highlighted the passages that were to be affected by the "policy" Araft agreed upon. But it still has not changed legally. Is is still the statements of a known terrorist in a letter and nothing more. Show me the link to the Charter where it shows the RATIFIED changes and as i said I will be quiet on this issue. You cannot, because it has not been changed.
[quote]Can we get back on discussing some posible solutions to the conflict as well? Anyone think Powell can do anything? Or will another bomb (which is bound to come) set the situation back to square one?<hr></blockquote>
I think Powell will try. He is sounding quite hopeful this morning. As soon as things atart to look up, that is whenthe next bomb will come. Likely after Israel starts to make more pull backs and starts to talk concessions. But when that bomb comes it will still be all Israels fault. Right?
I found another list of Facts on Israel that you will all love to nitpick. Get ready. Some are quite similar and some are new. We hav already fought over the similar ones, lets see what you think of the new ones. And I am sure that my source will be derided by you as well...
Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the Modern State of Israel. Before 1948, Jews were known as Palestinians. In fact, the Jerusalem Post was called the Palestine Post until the founding of the State of Israel.
Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 A.D. lasted no more than 22 years.
For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been a Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Moslem entity. The Arabs only established a provincial capital in the region, called Ramle, which is on the coastal plain, southeast of Tel Aviv.
Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem for 19 years, they never sought to make Jerusalem their capital, and Arab leaders from other countries never came to visit. Why not, if it was such an important Moslem holy site?
Jerusalem is mentioned 667 times in the Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures; and 144 times in the New Testament. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Moslems pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
<strong>I think somepeople won't rest until there is the complete obliteration and humiliation of Israel. But that's the way it has been for a long time. People need someone to blame. Jews have been the scapegoats for centuries.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
To say that condemnation of israel is a condemnation of the jewish people is to contort the actual situation. Arabs should not be punished for a genocide perpetrated by europeans. What Israel does to palestinian arabs is wrong on all sides, and any argument against that either show a lack of understanding of the palestinian situation under occupation or believes that palestinians do not have the same basic rights as anyone else on earth (as is the Israeli belief). Is is entirely wrong and misleading to say that anything anti-israel is anti-jewish. This rhetoric only enforces the false face of the situation and causes more and more people to die as a result of the Holocaust and its wake. Israel is clearly allowed to get away with much more than any other advanced country would. This is not about jews and muslims, esspecially since there are a lot of palestinian christians. This is about Israel and its attempt to eliminate the palestinians from what it sees as its god-given land. Where grew up and now live, Evanston, IL, there is a massive jewish population, as there is in neighboring Skokie (which granted homes for thousands of Holocaust survivors) and Lincolnwood. There are few people in my life who are not Jewish (though I am irish and my lady-friend is assirian). The jews in my life do not support Israel at all in this. In fact, many here, including some high profile individuals, are actively working against Israel at this point. Maybe educated midwest jews are different than the rest of the world. Or maybe they are just educated and have a conscience.
Anyway, if you really want to educate yourself, a good place to start is Joe Sacco's book Palestine. He spends quite a bit of time with palestinians in the west bank and gaza. It is a fun read (comics journalism) and will gove you the basics so you can go on and learn more.
<strong>Does the book go into the reason why mothers send their children out to blow themselves and others up? If so I think I will pick up a copy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You will realize the answer to that question as you gain a better understanding. Just try to imagine what extremes would drive you and your society to resort to that. And remember that these people are no different in cognition and emotion than you or anyone in your family. The words do not do the situation justice. Reading the news keeps it at a distance. It's not just tanks and bombing. It is an occupation that engulfs every aspect of the palestinian daily life.
[quote]NoahJ: I am done with anatomy and nitpicking therein. <hr></blockquote>
OK, I misread you, but I still don't see what point you are making...
[quote]Outsider: So I guess all the French violence against Jews recently is a fabrication of the US media? <hr></blockquote>
Well France is not the whole of Europe. It also has a very large muslim minority...
[quote] As I have stated, Arafat is irrelevant now. <hr></blockquote>
So who is relevant?
[quote] I have a creepy feeling that you mean that in a Darwin sort of way...
I have a creepy feeling you are wrong. <hr></blockquote>
I was talking about the right to survive...
[quote] Funny thing that the PA's website is down so I cannot link to them directly. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah, real funny. Do you know why?
[quote] It was a war run by diplomats and politicians. If they had let the military run the war we would have been done with it sooner. <hr></blockquote>
In what way? winning or pulling out?
[quote] So everyone says, so pull out and leave those poor Palestinians alone then. Then you are back to every time... <hr></blockquote>
How do you know? The israelis have never really pulled out completely. Not even close.
[quote] Wow, how shortsighted that is... Those who cannot remember history... Even recent history. <hr></blockquote>
explain please.
[quote] One thing I have found is that those that go against Israel have very bad things happen to them. Even very powerful nations. You can look at it biblically or historically. <hr></blockquote>
Well, no sane argument can bite on this...
[quote] I don't care about his constructed facts or the GNP of Olive oil from Lebanon or whatever. I found the speech to be interesting. I did not say the guy was a world historian, nor did I say he was 100% correct. I merely linked to his statement and said I found it to be an interesting read. You don't like it, fine. <hr></blockquote>
It's not that I don't like it. Its full of crap, and no real factual information, as the "quote" from 1913 proved. But I can still give you some more material on how "deserted" the land really was...
[quote] How is it worse? Did you even read the site? They painted this in the best possible light. <hr></blockquote>
It still is not the official statements from the PA / PLO.
[quote] As soon as things atart to look up, that is whenthe next bomb will come. Likely after Israel starts to make more pull backs and starts to talk concessions. But when that bomb comes it will still be all Israels fault. Right? <hr></blockquote>
The question is; Will Israel continue the talks in spite of the bombs that probably will come? Is Sharon going to continue to let the extreemists set the agenda. Or will he be as firm a peacemaker as he is a warrior...? I have serious doubts...
OK, I misread you, but I still don't see what point you are making...<hr></blockquote>
Then just drop it.
[quote]So who is relevant?<hr></blockquote>
That to me is the $60,000 question.
[quote]I was talking about the right to survive...<hr></blockquote>
As was I. Israel's right. Do you really believe Israel would continue their incursions if they were not being bombed and attacked by terrorists all the time? If so you reveal quite a bit about your viewpoint of Israel.
[quote]Yeah, real funny. Do you know why?<hr></blockquote>
They need better webmasters?
Of course I know why, but in this information age how hard is it to co-locate your web site in another country? Not hard at all.
[quote]In what way? winning or pulling out?<hr></blockquote>
Yes and yes.
[quote]How do you know? The israelis have never really pulled out completely. Not even close.<hr></blockquote>
And why is that? Really.
[quote]explain please.<hr></blockquote>
I don't feel explanation is necessary. I have been pounding this point over and over.
[quote]Well, no sane argument can bite on this...<hr></blockquote>
Whatever. As I said, i doubt you will agree or even believe. Just watch. The 6 day war was heavily stacked against Israel and they trounced them. Why is that? Is Israel just lucky or what?
[quote]It still is not the official statements from the PA / PLO.<hr></blockquote>
So show me the official Charter of the PA/PLO. Show me where it is written. I have shown you my cards, you show me yours, not just letters. The revised and agreed upon charter.
[quote]The question is; Will Israel continue the talks in spite of the bombs that probably will come? Is Sharon going to continue to let the extreemists set the agenda. Or will he be as firm a peacemaker as he is a warrior...? I have serious doubts...<hr></blockquote>
They did at first. Then they got tired of being attacked and so understandably acted to remove the threat. The question can be also will the extremists on the other side allow this to go foreward without unneccesary loss of life. If they want their land back they need to wait for the peace process to complete. They will not, so no, this will not resolve this time. If it does, things will get very interesting very quickly as it will set other things in motion. But that is not in your realm of reality.
How nice with list like this that present NO historical documetation or sources...
I'll have to make up my on list one day...
?Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
-We covered this one. The arabs have been there just as long. Jewish rule of the territory is limitied to a period of 414 years at best...
?\tArab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the Modern State of Israel. Before 1948, Jews were known as Palestinians. In fact, the Jerusalem Post was called the Palestine Post until the founding of the State of Israel.
-Yes, ethnic arabian jews living in the area have always been palestinians. But that the palestinians invented their ethnicity in 1967 is a funny concept...
?\tSince the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
- see above...
?The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 A.D. lasted no more than 22 years.
- Well the country came under arab islamic rule in the 7th century. Until the Ottoman Empire (also muslim) took over from 1516...
This is a bit more than 22 years. The country was stil mainly arab under Turk rule.
?\tFor over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been a Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Moslem entity. The Arabs only established a provincial capital in the region, called Ramle, which is on the coastal plain, southeast of Tel Aviv.
- A pretty loose definition of a capital I'd say. Can I make Las Vegas my personal capital?
(btw: I havn't even been there...)
?\tEven when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem for 19 years, they never sought to make Jerusalem their capital, and Arab leaders from other countries never came to visit. Why not, if it was such an important Moslem holy site?
-They allready had a capital... And as stated before Jordan is ruled by a different arab ethnic group than the arabs in Palestine.
?\tJerusalem is mentioned 667 times in the Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures; and 144 times in the New Testament. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
*\tKing David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
*\tJews pray facing Jerusalem. Moslems pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
-bla bla bla, never mix historic rights with religious beliefs...
?Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
- We coverd this on page 14... Read up on Deir Yassin, and see the BBC quote on the communication from that time. The facts are the opposit.
?\tThe Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms; with their houses, land, and assets being confiscated. It has been estimated that the combined land holdings lost by Jews who fled Arab lands was equal to or greater than the area of the State of Israel.
?\tThe number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same. So, there was an exchange in population.
- Only about 126,000 Oriental Jews (mostly from Iraq and Yemen) emigrated to Palestine in the two years immediately following an-Nakba in 1948.
?\tArab refugees were intentionally not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the US state of New Jersey.
- Maybe they want to go back too. With this argumentation Israel should have no problem with abosrbing them like they do with all the jewish imigrants every year...
?\tThe Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by 22 separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The five Arab Israeli wars were initiated by eight Arab nations. Israel defended itself each time and won.
Israel initiated some of the wars. in 1967 an 1982. The war of 1973 was never a war to exterminate israel, but to win back occuiped land outside palestine...
?\tThe PLO.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has placed most of the Palestinians under their own rule in the process of establishing a Palestinian State, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Palestinians have used the weapons to make war with Israel.
-Or defend themselves as others would claim. Israel did not uphold their pledge to stop the settlements. instead the increased the speed of settlement exansion... also covered on page 14...
?\tUnder Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Moslem and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
-Covered on page 14...
?\tThe U.N. was silent, while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
- This sound very bad... I'd like to see the source of this information...
?\tThe U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs shows that of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
?\tOf the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
- Directed against Israel or israeli actions?
?The U.N. was silent, while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
?The U.N. was silent, while the Jordanians enforced a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. The U.N. is silent now, while the Palestinians prevent all but Moslems to enter the Temple Mount, and are destroying historical, biblical artifacts, effectively erasing part of the faith history of Jews and Christians forever.
- The Jordanians actions described here are terrible and cannot be justified. (yet there is no source).
The Last claim is pure bugus...
?\tIsrael is the only member of the U.N. that is not permitted membership on the Security Council.
- Well, since they don't follow any UN resolutions, why would the want to be in the Security Council.
?\tIsrael's Magen David Adom has never been permitted membership in the International Red Cross, while the Moslem Red Crescent is a member.
They are barred from full membership because they use a "national symbol" as a mark, unlike the red cross and cresent. But they are associated with red cross/crecent, and cooperate in many areas. Personally I think they should be pernitted as full members...
That to me is the $60,000 question. <hr></blockquote>
Guess we're stuck with Arafat then. Personally I think Sharon is worst.
[quote] I was talking about the right to survive...
As was I. Israel's right. Do you really believe Israel would continue their incursions if they were not being bombed and attacked by terrorists all the time? If so you reveal quite a bit about your viewpoint of Israel. <hr></blockquote>
I was talking about both sides right to survive equally. I also don't think the incursions improve the situation...
[quote]They need better webmasters?
Of course I know why, but in this information age how hard is it to co-locate your web site in another country? Not hard at all. <hr></blockquote>
Maybe the Webmaster lies under a demolished house in Jenin <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Or maybe the whole point is to show the world whats its like to run anything from the west bank...
[quote] As I said, i doubt you will agree or even believe. Just watch. The 6 day war was heavily stacked against Israel and they trounced them. Why is that? Is Israel just lucky or what? <hr></blockquote>
Ohh no.. my return key just came loose, that must mean something?
[quote] So show me the official Charter of the PA/PLO. Show me where it is written. I have shown you my cards, you show me yours, not just letters. The revised and agreed upon charter. <hr></blockquote>
The documents are there, but they are not an "updated charter"... you need to give me some time on this... since I'm not just copying list of propaganda sites...
[quote]The question can be also will the extremists on the other side allow this to go foreward without unneccesary loss of life. If they want their land back they need to wait for the peace process to complete. <hr></blockquote>
I think what happend in Jenin is unjustifiable by any standard... The extreemist on both sides want the other side to disapear. Sharon is letting them set the agenda. So if this goes on there will probably be no peace...
Powell is going home tomorrow... I wonder what he writes in his report. Hopefully that it is now time for the international community to take steps to resolve the deadlock. The parties obviously can't themselves...
(BTW: At least you now agree that its their (the palestinians) land...)
>This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...<
Wow, you are either a fool, naive or both. There was so much cooperation between israel and the PA that Israel actually ARMED them! The thanks they received were terrorist attacks by those affiliated with the killer Arafat. As for a built up hate for Israel, it couldn't possibly get any worse. Besides, palestinians understand POWER-Israel is letting them know-you kill innocent Israelis and we are going to make your lives miserable.
New:
>Yes they are, but they won't be for ever. Allies come and go. And US foreign policy is changing.<
Wrong-the only countries that actively bounce from one side to another are European countries (I'm not including Britain in this). The United States support for Israel goes beyong its Jewish population. Christian conservatives will never back away from supporting Israel and are giving Bush and Powell hell for not supporting Israels anti-terror campaign more strongly....................
? Israel is the only member of the U.N. that is not permitted membership on the Security Council.
- Well, since they don't follow any UN resolutions, why would the want to be in the Security Council.
Name me one Arab country that has ever listened to what the UN has said, starting with the birth of Israel. .
As for the way Jews treat Palestinians, have you ever expressed concern in the past with Arab treatment of its Jewish population? The destruction of temples, banning them from government, harrassment, etc? Or was that not an issue for you because they happened to be Jews? A hypocrite has no balance in their views. You, sir are a hypocrite.........................................
Comments
"I can't find a job. Damn Jews keeping me back!"
"Why is our country in such bad shape? It's those dirty Jews!"
"I waste all my money at the doctor... greedy jews!"
"I'll tell you why there's so much crime... the Jewish mafia, that's who!"
"Gas is so expensive. So the jews can send their kids to college."
"I was abductded by aliens and anally probed... surely a jewish conspiracy."
I heare it all the time in the USA. I can only imagine how much worse the attitude is in Europe and abroad. Some hick the otherday was telling me how he hasn't gotten a raise in 2 years, because the jews want to keep all the money to themselves. Mind you he missed 14 days of work the previous year.
Beeing european I've almost never heard a bad word about jews...
Scandinavia might be differnet from the rest of Europe, but it sounds like things are worse in the US... How is the general attitude towards muslims? Not to good either I imagine?
<strong>
I heare it all the time in the USA. I can only imagine how much worse the attitude is in Europe and abroad. Some hick the otherday was telling me how he hasn't gotten a raise in 2 years, because the jews want to keep all the money to themselves. Mind you he missed 14 days of work the previous year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I NEVER hear anything like what you described here in Denmark and I doubt very much that it is common in northern europe. If anyone is targeted here its people from muslim countries.
And I can´t understand why "everyone" is using Israel and Jews as were they synonyms. Just one week ago there was a jewish demonstration against the occupation of the Palestinian areas in front of the Israeli embassy in Copenhagen.
The former editor of one of our largest newspapers just started a collection to fund the hospital in Ramallah. He is a jew living in Tel Aviv, he fought in the first wars in Israels history and his son was one of the initial forces behind the Oslo peace process. He argues that Israel has made it impossible for the Palestinian authorities to run the hospital and people suffer because of that and that what Israel is doing right now is against all what he believe.
<strong>
In all my studying of geography and human anatomy, I fail to see how "that is just how it is setup" explains how someone can pray toward one place and away from another at any point on the globe. I know it's all semantics, but I'm genuinely curious, Noah</strong><hr></blockquote>
Failing to read that I said in Mecca. Not anywhere in the world. The first time it was written it was very open to your nitpicking. The second time I limited the scope to Mecca itself.If you cannot see that limit you are abviously just trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. Whatever. I am done with anatomy and nitpicking therein.
<a href="http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=6015"; target="_blank">http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=6015</a>;
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/07/france.marches/?related"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/07/france.marches/?related</a>;
<a href="http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/denmark.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/denmark.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.funtour.co.il/update8101.html"; target="_blank">http://www.funtour.co.il/update8101.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.alli.fi/nuorisotutkimus/julkaisut/virtanen/3/3.html"; target="_blank">http://www.alli.fi/nuorisotutkimus/julkaisut/virtanen/3/3.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/norway.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/norway.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Islme_62/4040_62.asp"; target="_blank">http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Islme_62/4040_62.asp</a>;
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1339000/1339096.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1339000/1339096.stm</a>;
blah blah blah blah... All you need to do is search in Google under anti-Semitism + Europe and you'll never get bored with all the reading you can do.
<strong>
Failing to read that I said in Mecca. Not anywhere in the world. The first time it was written it was very open to your nitpicking. The second time I limited the scope to Mecca itself.If you cannot see that limit you are abviously just trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. Whatever. I am done with anatomy and nitpicking therein.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I reread it, and yes, you did say that. Sorry for bothering you.
Back down from what? Their last rubble of stone? Arafat has already condemed every terrorist attack, and from where he is now (in prison), and the state of the PA policeforce (destroyed) he can't do much more.<hr></blockquote>
As I have stated, Arafat is irrelevant now. I may not have come riight out and said it, but my posts have all been leaning that way. His people are not listening to him and the only reason he is in the limelight is as a scapegoat. He got his people in over their heads, and now he can do nothing about it. His people are also Palestinians, correct? His police force is also part of the problem, as they do not follow his orders either unless it suits them. You can find instances of this all over. Israel see this, and so do many others.
[quote]I have a creepy feeling that you mean that in a Darwin sort of way...<hr></blockquote>
I have a creepy feeling you are wrong. Israel has the upper hand here because of their military and because of the Palestinians stupidity and squandering of what they had. At one time they had Israel outmanned and outgunned. This is not the case anymore and has not been for a while. However they are still purposely poking them in the eye with a big stick and then crying when Israel hits them over the head with a bat.
[quote]I have quoted a number of real sources. All you do is post links to religious fundamentalist... But I'll find you another document to not belive in...<hr></blockquote>
I have been as fair as you have. You show one side I show the other. The truth is in the middle likely. Funny thing that the PA's website is down so I cannot link to them directly. However, the Google cache that I found looked like a verbatim quote of the rhetoric you have been saying to me. I guess you would be proud to hear that...
[quote]Are you defending Vietnam...? And COMPARING it to this conflict!?! You are giving me the upper hand here. I seem to remember that the US got out of Vietnam.<hr></blockquote>
You miss the point. Where is the suprise in that? Vietnam itself was necessary but bungled terribly. It was a war run by diplomats and politicians. If they had let the military run the war we would have been done with it sooner. how about Afghanistan? Everyone was saying, "Oh no! Another Vietnam, we will be there forever and end up losting." Shortest Vietnam ever.
The comparison, however was not on that level. Israel has been not really fighting the terrorism that has been hitting them directly until recently. And now they find that their enemy could be anyone, from the kid on the corner to the old man getting on the bus. Makes the job of protecting their people quite a bit more difficult. So everyone says, so pull out and leave those poor Palestinians alone then. Then you are back to every time they do that the bombings increase again and they have to go back in and put down the terrorists yet again. But that is not your problem is it?
[quote]This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...<hr></blockquote>
Wow, how shortsighted that is... Those who cannot remember history... Even recent history.
[quote]Yes they are, but they won't be for ever. Allies come and go. And US foreign policy is changing.<hr></blockquote>
The day Israel ceases to be an ally of the US will be the day I move to Israel. One thing I have found is that those that go against Israel have very bad things happen to them. Even very powerful nations. You can look at it biblically or historically. And you can laugh or deride me all you want. If the US dumps Israel things will not go well. Guaranteed.
[quote]It is far from one consul. But I picked one. Do you want more quotes? I have them going back to roman times...
Why don't you admit that it was a constructed "fact". The whole article has worse retoric than you do...<hr></blockquote>
I don't care about his constructed facts or the GNP of Olive oil from Lebanon or whatever. I found the speech to be interesting. I did not say the guy was a world historian, nor did I say he was 100% correct. I merely linked to his statement and said I found it to be an interesting read. You don't like it, fine.
[quote]Never heard of AIPAC then? Do a search on it and learn some more...<hr></blockquote>
I just might.
[quote] Can you make me a drawing, 'cause I stil don't understand how this applies to anyone but the people in a small part of the west bank...<hr></blockquote>
I'm done on this issue. You are like a dog with a bone.
[quote]To make your argument worse, you post a link to a jewish historical society, but don't worry I'll find some decent documentation...<hr></blockquote>
How is it worse? Did you even read the site? They painted this in the best possible light. They even stated about the letters you quoted and how things should be better now. They highlighted the passages that were to be affected by the "policy" Araft agreed upon. But it still has not changed legally. Is is still the statements of a known terrorist in a letter and nothing more. Show me the link to the Charter where it shows the RATIFIED changes and as i said I will be quiet on this issue. You cannot, because it has not been changed.
[quote]Can we get back on discussing some posible solutions to the conflict as well? Anyone think Powell can do anything? Or will another bomb (which is bound to come) set the situation back to square one?<hr></blockquote>
I think Powell will try. He is sounding quite hopeful this morning. As soon as things atart to look up, that is whenthe next bomb will come. Likely after Israel starts to make more pull backs and starts to talk concessions. But when that bomb comes it will still be all Israels fault. Right?
<a href="http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/dispatch/betweenthelines/Article-0.html"; target="_blank">A Quick Course On Real Facts</a>
(DFJ-Mar/Apr 02)
<strong>I think somepeople won't rest until there is the complete obliteration and humiliation of Israel. But that's the way it has been for a long time. People need someone to blame. Jews have been the scapegoats for centuries.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
To say that condemnation of israel is a condemnation of the jewish people is to contort the actual situation. Arabs should not be punished for a genocide perpetrated by europeans. What Israel does to palestinian arabs is wrong on all sides, and any argument against that either show a lack of understanding of the palestinian situation under occupation or believes that palestinians do not have the same basic rights as anyone else on earth (as is the Israeli belief). Is is entirely wrong and misleading to say that anything anti-israel is anti-jewish. This rhetoric only enforces the false face of the situation and causes more and more people to die as a result of the Holocaust and its wake. Israel is clearly allowed to get away with much more than any other advanced country would. This is not about jews and muslims, esspecially since there are a lot of palestinian christians. This is about Israel and its attempt to eliminate the palestinians from what it sees as its god-given land. Where grew up and now live, Evanston, IL, there is a massive jewish population, as there is in neighboring Skokie (which granted homes for thousands of Holocaust survivors) and Lincolnwood. There are few people in my life who are not Jewish (though I am irish and my lady-friend is assirian). The jews in my life do not support Israel at all in this. In fact, many here, including some high profile individuals, are actively working against Israel at this point. Maybe educated midwest jews are different than the rest of the world. Or maybe they are just educated and have a conscience.
Anyway, if you really want to educate yourself, a good place to start is Joe Sacco's book Palestine. He spends quite a bit of time with palestinians in the west bank and gaza. It is a fun read (comics journalism) and will gove you the basics so you can go on and learn more.
<strong>[*]Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Moslems pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a joke, right?
<strong>Does the book go into the reason why mothers send their children out to blow themselves and others up? If so I think I will pick up a copy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You will realize the answer to that question as you gain a better understanding. Just try to imagine what extremes would drive you and your society to resort to that. And remember that these people are no different in cognition and emotion than you or anyone in your family. The words do not do the situation justice. Reading the news keeps it at a distance. It's not just tanks and bombing. It is an occupation that engulfs every aspect of the palestinian daily life.
It would have to be really bad. But not as bad as the Palestinians have it.
<strong>
This is a joke, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not again!!! :eek:
OK, I misread you, but I still don't see what point you are making...
[quote]Outsider: So I guess all the French violence against Jews recently is a fabrication of the US media? <hr></blockquote>
Well France is not the whole of Europe. It also has a very large muslim minority...
[quote] As I have stated, Arafat is irrelevant now. <hr></blockquote>
So who is relevant?
[quote] I have a creepy feeling that you mean that in a Darwin sort of way...
I have a creepy feeling you are wrong. <hr></blockquote>
I was talking about the right to survive...
[quote] Funny thing that the PA's website is down so I cannot link to them directly. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah, real funny. Do you know why?
[quote] It was a war run by diplomats and politicians. If they had let the military run the war we would have been done with it sooner. <hr></blockquote>
In what way? winning or pulling out?
[quote] So everyone says, so pull out and leave those poor Palestinians alone then. Then you are back to every time... <hr></blockquote>
How do you know? The israelis have never really pulled out completely. Not even close.
[quote] Wow, how shortsighted that is... Those who cannot remember history... Even recent history. <hr></blockquote>
[quote] One thing I have found is that those that go against Israel have very bad things happen to them. Even very powerful nations. You can look at it biblically or historically. <hr></blockquote>
Well, no sane argument can bite on this...
[quote] I don't care about his constructed facts or the GNP of Olive oil from Lebanon or whatever. I found the speech to be interesting. I did not say the guy was a world historian, nor did I say he was 100% correct. I merely linked to his statement and said I found it to be an interesting read. You don't like it, fine. <hr></blockquote>
It's not that I don't like it. Its full of crap, and no real factual information, as the "quote" from 1913 proved. But I can still give you some more material on how "deserted" the land really was...
[quote] How is it worse? Did you even read the site? They painted this in the best possible light. <hr></blockquote>
It still is not the official statements from the PA / PLO.
[quote] As soon as things atart to look up, that is whenthe next bomb will come. Likely after Israel starts to make more pull backs and starts to talk concessions. But when that bomb comes it will still be all Israels fault. Right? <hr></blockquote>
The question is; Will Israel continue the talks in spite of the bombs that probably will come? Is Sharon going to continue to let the extreemists set the agenda. Or will he be as firm a peacemaker as he is a warrior...? I have serious doubts...
OK, I misread you, but I still don't see what point you are making...<hr></blockquote>
Then just drop it.
[quote]So who is relevant?<hr></blockquote>
That to me is the $60,000 question.
[quote]I was talking about the right to survive...<hr></blockquote>
As was I. Israel's right. Do you really believe Israel would continue their incursions if they were not being bombed and attacked by terrorists all the time? If so you reveal quite a bit about your viewpoint of Israel.
[quote]Yeah, real funny. Do you know why?<hr></blockquote>
They need better webmasters?
Of course I know why, but in this information age how hard is it to co-locate your web site in another country? Not hard at all.
[quote]In what way? winning or pulling out?<hr></blockquote>
Yes and yes.
[quote]How do you know? The israelis have never really pulled out completely. Not even close.<hr></blockquote>
And why is that? Really.
[quote]explain please.<hr></blockquote>
I don't feel explanation is necessary. I have been pounding this point over and over.
[quote]Well, no sane argument can bite on this...<hr></blockquote>
Whatever. As I said, i doubt you will agree or even believe. Just watch. The 6 day war was heavily stacked against Israel and they trounced them. Why is that? Is Israel just lucky or what?
[quote]It still is not the official statements from the PA / PLO.<hr></blockquote>
So show me the official Charter of the PA/PLO. Show me where it is written. I have shown you my cards, you show me yours, not just letters. The revised and agreed upon charter.
[quote]The question is; Will Israel continue the talks in spite of the bombs that probably will come? Is Sharon going to continue to let the extreemists set the agenda. Or will he be as firm a peacemaker as he is a warrior...? I have serious doubts...<hr></blockquote>
They did at first. Then they got tired of being attacked and so understandably acted to remove the threat. The question can be also will the extremists on the other side allow this to go foreward without unneccesary loss of life. If they want their land back they need to wait for the peace process to complete. They will not, so no, this will not resolve this time. If it does, things will get very interesting very quickly as it will set other things in motion. But that is not in your realm of reality.
How nice with list like this that present NO historical documetation or sources...
I'll have to make up my on list one day...
?Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
-We covered this one. The arabs have been there just as long. Jewish rule of the territory is limitied to a period of 414 years at best...
?\tArab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the Modern State of Israel. Before 1948, Jews were known as Palestinians. In fact, the Jerusalem Post was called the Palestine Post until the founding of the State of Israel.
-Yes, ethnic arabian jews living in the area have always been palestinians. But that the palestinians invented their ethnicity in 1967 is a funny concept...
?\tSince the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
- see above...
?The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 A.D. lasted no more than 22 years.
- Well the country came under arab islamic rule in the 7th century. Until the Ottoman Empire (also muslim) took over from 1516...
This is a bit more than 22 years. The country was stil mainly arab under Turk rule.
?\tFor over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been a Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Moslem entity. The Arabs only established a provincial capital in the region, called Ramle, which is on the coastal plain, southeast of Tel Aviv.
- A pretty loose definition of a capital I'd say. Can I make Las Vegas my personal capital?
(btw: I havn't even been there...)
?\tEven when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem for 19 years, they never sought to make Jerusalem their capital, and Arab leaders from other countries never came to visit. Why not, if it was such an important Moslem holy site?
-They allready had a capital... And as stated before Jordan is ruled by a different arab ethnic group than the arabs in Palestine.
?\tJerusalem is mentioned 667 times in the Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures; and 144 times in the New Testament. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
*\tKing David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
*\tJews pray facing Jerusalem. Moslems pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
-bla bla bla, never mix historic rights with religious beliefs...
?Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
- We coverd this on page 14... Read up on Deir Yassin, and see the BBC quote on the communication from that time. The facts are the opposit.
?\tThe Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and pogroms; with their houses, land, and assets being confiscated. It has been estimated that the combined land holdings lost by Jews who fled Arab lands was equal to or greater than the area of the State of Israel.
?\tThe number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same. So, there was an exchange in population.
- Only about 126,000 Oriental Jews (mostly from Iraq and Yemen) emigrated to Palestine in the two years immediately following an-Nakba in 1948.
?\tArab refugees were intentionally not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the US state of New Jersey.
- Maybe they want to go back too. With this argumentation Israel should have no problem with abosrbing them like they do with all the jewish imigrants every year...
?\tThe Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by 22 separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The five Arab Israeli wars were initiated by eight Arab nations. Israel defended itself each time and won.
Israel initiated some of the wars. in 1967 an 1982. The war of 1973 was never a war to exterminate israel, but to win back occuiped land outside palestine...
?\tThe PLO.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has placed most of the Palestinians under their own rule in the process of establishing a Palestinian State, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. The Palestinians have used the weapons to make war with Israel.
-Or defend themselves as others would claim. Israel did not uphold their pledge to stop the settlements. instead the increased the speed of settlement exansion... also covered on page 14...
?\tUnder Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Moslem and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
-Covered on page 14...
?\tThe U.N. was silent, while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
- This sound very bad... I'd like to see the source of this information...
?\tThe U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs shows that of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
?\tOf the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
- Directed against Israel or israeli actions?
?The U.N. was silent, while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
?The U.N. was silent, while the Jordanians enforced a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. The U.N. is silent now, while the Palestinians prevent all but Moslems to enter the Temple Mount, and are destroying historical, biblical artifacts, effectively erasing part of the faith history of Jews and Christians forever.
- The Jordanians actions described here are terrible and cannot be justified. (yet there is no source).
The Last claim is pure bugus...
?\tIsrael is the only member of the U.N. that is not permitted membership on the Security Council.
- Well, since they don't follow any UN resolutions, why would the want to be in the Security Council.
?\tIsrael's Magen David Adom has never been permitted membership in the International Red Cross, while the Moslem Red Crescent is a member.
They are barred from full membership because they use a "national symbol" as a mark, unlike the red cross and cresent. But they are associated with red cross/crecent, and cooperate in many areas. Personally I think they should be pernitted as full members...
That to me is the $60,000 question. <hr></blockquote>
Guess we're stuck with Arafat then. Personally I think Sharon is worst.
[quote] I was talking about the right to survive...
As was I. Israel's right. Do you really believe Israel would continue their incursions if they were not being bombed and attacked by terrorists all the time? If so you reveal quite a bit about your viewpoint of Israel. <hr></blockquote>
I was talking about both sides right to survive equally. I also don't think the incursions improve the situation...
[quote]They need better webmasters?
Of course I know why, but in this information age how hard is it to co-locate your web site in another country? Not hard at all. <hr></blockquote>
Maybe the Webmaster lies under a demolished house in Jenin <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Or maybe the whole point is to show the world whats its like to run anything from the west bank...
[quote] As I said, i doubt you will agree or even believe. Just watch. The 6 day war was heavily stacked against Israel and they trounced them. Why is that? Is Israel just lucky or what? <hr></blockquote>
Ohh no.. my return key just came loose, that must mean something?
[quote] So show me the official Charter of the PA/PLO. Show me where it is written. I have shown you my cards, you show me yours, not just letters. The revised and agreed upon charter. <hr></blockquote>
The documents are there, but they are not an "updated charter"... you need to give me some time on this... since I'm not just copying list of propaganda sites...
[quote]The question can be also will the extremists on the other side allow this to go foreward without unneccesary loss of life. If they want their land back they need to wait for the peace process to complete. <hr></blockquote>
I think what happend in Jenin is unjustifiable by any standard... The extreemist on both sides want the other side to disapear. Sharon is letting them set the agenda. So if this goes on there will probably be no peace...
Powell is going home tomorrow... I wonder what he writes in his report. Hopefully that it is now time for the international community to take steps to resolve the deadlock. The parties obviously can't themselves...
(BTW: At least you now agree that its their (the palestinians) land...)
>This is where you are so wrong. Israeli agression has only made the situation worse.
They have not been able to stop the suicide attacks. But the have during the last few days built up a hate for Israel that has never been worse.
Real cooperation between Israel and the PA would have made HAMAS insignificant. Now they are more important than ever. And there will probably be another suicide bomb soon...<
Wow, you are either a fool, naive or both. There was so much cooperation between israel and the PA that Israel actually ARMED them! The thanks they received were terrorist attacks by those affiliated with the killer Arafat. As for a built up hate for Israel, it couldn't possibly get any worse. Besides, palestinians understand POWER-Israel is letting them know-you kill innocent Israelis and we are going to make your lives miserable.
New:
>Yes they are, but they won't be for ever. Allies come and go. And US foreign policy is changing.<
Wrong-the only countries that actively bounce from one side to another are European countries (I'm not including Britain in this). The United States support for Israel goes beyong its Jewish population. Christian conservatives will never back away from supporting Israel and are giving Bush and Powell hell for not supporting Israels anti-terror campaign more strongly....................
? Israel is the only member of the U.N. that is not permitted membership on the Security Council.
- Well, since they don't follow any UN resolutions, why would the want to be in the Security Council.
Name me one Arab country that has ever listened to what the UN has said, starting with the birth of Israel. .
As for the way Jews treat Palestinians, have you ever expressed concern in the past with Arab treatment of its Jewish population? The destruction of temples, banning them from government, harrassment, etc? Or was that not an issue for you because they happened to be Jews? A hypocrite has no balance in their views. You, sir are a hypocrite.........................................