Could you please point to some source who can confirm this, because I recently read that the Red Cross did a thourogh check on this and found that there was no hold in these claims...
_____________
Again, please post some sources. The Al Aqsa Brigade are Fatha members who operate on the outside of tha fatha structure. Which btw, is nothing more than a loose umbrella organisation. Some of the fractions of fahta are clearly far beyond Arafats control.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK here are the links u wanted....
This one is about Arafat's and Barghouti's links to suicide attacks
I have no sympathy for your arguments. You elected a guy stained with previous war-crimes as a leader... This guy has FIGHT THE ARABS written all over him. He always has...
______________
I'm not just talking about settlements. I'm also talking about this:
(and how new suicide attacks will come frome it)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1.Sharon is no saint but to call him a war criminal is pure twisting of the truth. how can Sharon be accused for a massacre that Arabs performed against Arabs ?
And by following your logic Arafat is far worse then Sharon cos he actually has been a full on terrorist for over 30 years, ordering the murder of so many people .... why do you forgive him so easily ?
If Sharon is a war criminal Arafat is doubly so !
2. What you are talking about is pure speculation and propaganda. and even if all of the Palestinian's claims are true ( which they are NOT) how come its fine for Europeans and Americans to cause the same damege when they go to war in Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan
but when Israel does it every one goes apeshit ...
Regretably IDF statements (and the news qoutes of IDF statements) don't impress me much. They've also claimed that less than 50 people were killed in Jenin. I'd had hoped that you'd come up with something better...
That first article proves nothing on Arafats link to Al Aqsa.
The second article (as far as I can tell) says nothing about a bomb-belt found in an ambulance. It doesn't even state that it is certain that ambulances have been used. So I guess it was just propaganda then...
The third article stinks so bad of self-justification that it doesn't really need any comment. If the picture it portrays is true, then there wouldn't be a single wounded dying from not getting help in time...
Well my friend do u have any sympathy for the 3 Palestinian children who were hurt today when a booby trap made for Israeli soldiers exploded in their face when they were trying to get back home ?
Is it really Israel's fault that the Millitants are that ****ed up that they boobytrap their entire refugee camp without even caring for their own people's lives ?
'As former Israeli prime minister Golda Meir said ?There will only be peace when they
start loving their children more than they hate Israel?.'
[quote] Sharon is no saint but to call him a war criminal is pure twisting of the truth. <hr></blockquote>
I didn't call him a war criminal, I said he was stained by them. As in having been accused of them, and even found indirectly guilty by an official israeli commision. Admit it, he was elected to make the palestinians pay...
You just didn't expect it to go this far...
And your parallels to Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan have no meaning. Simply because none of these countries are occupied now or have been opccupied for a longer period of time... Its not a double standard. I'm starting to think that an international intervention is the right thing here too...
[quote] 'As former Israeli prime minister Golda Meir said ?There will only be peace when they start loving their children more than they hate Israel?. <hr></blockquote>
That has to be one of the most racist statements ever made...
Almost as stupid as:
"A land without a people for a people without a land."
<strong>Regretably IDF statements (and the news qoutes of IDF statements) don't impress me much. They've also claimed that less than 50 people were killed in Jenin. I'd had hoped that you'd come up with something better...
That first article proves nothing on Arafats link to Al Aqsa.
The second article (as far as I can tell) says nothing about a bomb-belt found in an ambulance. It doesn't even state that it is certain that ambulances have been used. So I guess it was just propaganda then...
The third article stinks so bad of self-justification that it doesn't really need any comment. If the picture it portrays is true, then there wouldn't be a single wounded dying from not getting help in time...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well dude , I guess it doesn't matter what ever I'll send you or say you will call it lies and propaganda , I guess i'm just full of crap cos I'm a murdering Israeli .. and all I care about is how to spill more Arab blood and all that ... whatever........
Let me just say one thing though.... to solve this conflict people on all sides have to compromise and accept that they are wrong, don't expect any Israeli to take people like you seriously when all you can say about everything Israeli is lies and bullshit this conflict has two sides and both demand respect and you ( and many Europeans like you ) are simply incapable of crediting any respect to the Jewish side.
This will only make a solution more difficult and bring more bloodshed.
Well I don't think IDF quotes are the best way to start a discussion on how to solve the colflict.
But If you want to persue that path I'll gladly follow. I've been trying to turn this thread towards a more solution oriented debate. But we keep on going back to the old b*tching on who has the historic rights or who is the bigger terrorist.
I totaly agree that to start to solve this conflict one needs compromise acceptance that all sides have done wrong. If you go back in the thread you'll see that I (and others) have posted suggestions for compromises and solutions...
That has to be one of the most racist statements ever made...
Almost as stupid as:
"A land without a people for a people without a land."</strong><hr></blockquote>
What's racist about this quote ?
Dont they send their children on suicide missions ?
Isn't Sadam paying 25000 $ to any palestinian family who breads a suicide bomber ?
Arn't they hiding behind civilian population when they go into these refugee camps ?
Couldn't Arafat spend the millions he gets from Europe on health and education for these children instead of spending it on suicides and guns ?
Why do they teach their children from age 0 that a good Israeli is a dead Israeli and that one day they will oun Tel Aviv ?
I am not a racist DO NOT call me a racist I belive in coexistance for Jews and arabs in Israel and when i lived in Jerusalem I had good Palestinian friends.
I deeply simpathize with their situation which is why i said I am all for ending the occupation
and stoping the violence
But I will not sit by when my people are being killed daily .
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>It is so totally NOT OK for Israeli civilians to be killed by Palestinian terrorists.
It is just fine for Palestinian civilians (terrorists) to be killed by the Israeli military.
It is so OK for Israel to defend itself against Palestinian terrorist attacks
It is unacceptable for Palestinian terrorists to defend themselves from having their homes, farms and villages being demolished.
It is acceptable for Israeli military to defend their land and people against attacks by Palestinian terrorists
It is fine to supply arms to Israeli military to kill people with, yet it is not OK for arms to be supplied to the Palestinian terrorists to kill people with.
An Israeli life is sanctified: a Palestinian life is dispensible.
All Israelis are upstanding humans: All Palestinians are terrorists
That has to be one of the most racist statements ever made...
Almost as stupid as:
"A land without a people for a people without a land."</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is the most brilliant statements she ever made and it applies equally well today. Only an ignorant moron would fail to find the truth in it................................................ .
It is racist because it labels a whole ethnic group with certain opinions. It's worse because it says this ethnic group values hate of others more than love for their own children.
It's like saying "all chinese value money over friendship" (only worse).
The Apartheid Regime in South Africa also used to portray the black as "traind killers, filled with hate for every white man". These statements where used to scare the white society from getting to close to the black. This statement has the same effect.
Think: they are probably saying the same thing about us...
i wasn't following your previous arguments throughly, but just from this posting i can see that your natural tendency is to believe the Palestinian side and automatically doubt the Israeli side.
Now, without getting into details of their lies and propaganda (i mean come on, do you really think that people who take the extremem measures of blowing themselves up won't take the 'extreme' measure of lying and inciting? and yes i can prove that to you with links and etc. but why does this matter?)
i think the only fair thing to do, is to let both sides the benefit of the doubt till otherwise proven.
you ask for written prooves, links and etc. to everything that is said to defend Israel but you go about and wildly qoute every romour and every anti Israeli propaganda you've heard from Palesitian side, as if it was pure truth.
now this does not seem fair to me, without even getting to any further details, of the specific facts you mentioned (some of which are very clearly fed by disinformation and propaganda)
it seems to me somewhat superficial to go about and stand to the side of the one that seems 'hard and done by' without making sure he is really what he claims to be.
this is not in anyway coming to discharge the hard life and the suffering that the Palestinian people are undergoing, but to put the sole blame on Israel and to make it a monstrous criminal state is really just shifting attention from the real problem!
[quote]And your parallels to Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan have no meaning. Simply because none of these countries are occupied now or have been opccupied for a longer period of time...
<hr></blockquote>
sorry New, i'm going back and can't help myself from responding to you again.
the term 'occupation' that you so eagerly use here, do you know what in means de facto?
b4 this current wave of violence started Palestinians had full control over the majority of the west bank (known as A zones). just before violence erupted, 18 months ago, Ehud Barak in camp david offered them something like 96% of what they wanted (and please don't nail for 1% up or down) and other territorial and financial compensation for the remaining 4%. not only did Arafta turn it down (as you must know) but soon after El-Aktsa riots started just to show the Israeli people what the Palestinians really thought about this offer.
so much for occupation, i can promise you that Israel wants to end whatever is left of it no less, or even more, then Palestinians.
Did you know that after the 6 days was Israel offered Jordan to take the West bank back and Jordan refused. do you know why? because King Husein was clever enough to predict this time bomb. now this is the real root of the problem. there is no denial to the fact that Palestininans need their own state, but it is also so clear that what is going on now is way beyond that. to ignore their, and the rest of the Arab world, hatred to the Jews and Israelies is blindness, and to not see that what they really want is everything from Jordan to the Mediterrnean sea is to ignore the truth. (and please forgive me all those sane Palestinians who do not feel this way, i know there are some of you out there).
Now the fact that Israel is perhaps too proud to go about and beg the world for salvation, to entice, lie and twist facts to such an extent, or even sometimes to explain itself to the world (maybe foolish, but still no war crime) does not mean that it is not fighting for its life!
<strong>It is racist because it labels a whole ethnic group with certain opinions. It's worse because it says this ethnic group values hate of others more than love for their own children.
It's like saying "all chinese value money over friendship" (only worse).
The Apartheid Regime in South Africa also used to portray the black as "traind killers, filled with hate for every white man". These statements where used to scare the white society from getting to close to the black. This statement has the same effect.
Think: they are probably saying the same thing about us...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeh I know you like comparing Israel to SA ... its a very effective way to add wight to your arguments , but sorry it dosn't wash. Israel treats ALL its citizens fairly and even though there are tension between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis they are both citizens with equal rights ( some Arabs even serve in the IDF )
its funny but the only place in the middle east where Arabs can live in a democracy is Israel ...... think about that....
BTW here are some more of those links you asked for...
( this is from Israel's most respected newspaper which is by the way considered rather leftwing and very moderate and reliable - but you would still dismiss this no doubt...)
If you read the thread thorughly you'll see that I nowhere use arab/palestinian sources as main sources. I believe both sids try to make their versions "better", so I generaly stay away from the propaganda sites. Real journalism and historic fact are much more interesting anyway.
I mainly try to get my information from as neutral sources as posible. I prefer to use israeli sources if I can. Like the Statistics Burau, or the Israeli Human Rights Organisations. If an arab is quoted be sure the quote is taken from a jew who quoted him. I use the UN. I used the US State department. And I even used the map hanging on my wall as a source to prove that the "1913-quote" from the republican senator was a constructed argument.
When I ask for written prove it because I expect other to be as thourgh. clipping a story from CNN quoting the Israeli army is not a valid form of proving anything. When someone claims that I am speading propaganda, I ask them to back up their claims...
To me there is not one palestininan and one israeli side here. There are extreemist on both sides who gain power by having the conflict intensifying. And there are moderats, humanist and intellectuals on both sides who are honestly working hard for peace. (they do not have a very good representation amonge the leadership these days).
If you want to work towards peace, one of the first things you have to do (like rashumon said) is to admit guilt. And facts. If you claim nothing bad has been done, then why the need to reconcile? The truth is not nice but it need to be told. Everytime You say Israel is wrong, the answer is "no they are not, and the arabs are wronger" (see the contradiction?).
Everyone can see that the palestinians are doing wrong. Still the numbers say that there are 5 palestinians dead for every israeli, and that 40 % of them are childern and youths. How do you explain this?
One side here has the power (both military, financially and intellectually) to really change the situation. To make real peace, not just endless negotiations and toothless compromises, but It's will cost Israel a lot.
The other side is weak. They can only act the way they do. How anyone can believe that any of the leaders can actually stop the violence is beyond me...
Violence like this don't need leaders, only opponents. The leaders of most occupied people are either in prison or in exile, or they are killed and made legends of (or t-shirts)... The conflict is about occupation. It has been for 35 years. The security issue is important. But to think this conflict is about security is to bend over, sorry.
This was a reply to your first post. I see from your second and third, that you have already picked sides, and are joining the choir of excusing the occupation and blaming everything on the palestinians...
<strong>It is racist because it labels a whole ethnic group with certain opinions. It's worse because it says this ethnic group values hate of others more than love for their own children.
It's like saying "all chinese value money over friendship" (only worse).
The Apartheid Regime in South Africa also used to portray the black as "traind killers, filled with hate for every white man". These statements where used to scare the white society from getting to close to the black. This statement has the same effect.
Think: they are probably saying the same thing about us...</strong><hr></blockquote>
racism- you so much like this word. and aren't you racist against Israel?
and by comparing it to prejudice about Chinese (mind you- your own words) or to aparthide in South Africa you yourself send a subliminal message of racism, of anti-ism.
Everyone can see that the palestinians are doing wrong. Still the numbers say that there are 5 palestinians dead for every israeli, and that 40 % of them are childern and youths. How do you explain this?
One side here has the power (both military, financially and intellectually) to really change the situation. To make real peace, not just endless negotiations and toothless compromises, but It's will cost Israel a lot.
The other side is weak. They can only act the way they do. How anyone can believe that any of the leaders can actually stop the violence is beyond me... </strong><hr></blockquote>
1. Again mate , your numbers and facts are wrong ! since the start of the Intefada there has been about 500 Israelis killed and around 1500 Palestinians killed ..... almost all Israeli casualties are civilian and a large percetage of Palestinian casualties are Millitants .
Palestinians deliberatly trget civilians Israel dosen't !
2. I agree with some of the things you say and I personally believe that if Israel cannot achieve a cease fire and a return to negotiations soon it should simply do a one sided withdrawl from the occupied territories. and that would negate all this disscution about occupation.
But what you're asking us to do is to roll over and excuse the killing of our civilians ... that is unacceptable. it's easy to suggest this when you live in far away peaceful Scandinavia but lets see you handle daily life in Israel.
Any way its been tried before and failed- for 8 years Israel was talking to the palestinians we had times when there were horrific suicide bombing ( like in 1996 when more the 70 Israelis lost their lives in less then a month) but Israel held its pain and continued to talk peace and did not retaliate. what did we get in return ? nothing! only more violence, hate, incitement, and demands ....
I really belive the only solution is for Israel to declare a unilateral separation and detach itself completely from this mess.
Comments
<strong>
Could you please point to some source who can confirm this, because I recently read that the Red Cross did a thourogh check on this and found that there was no hold in these claims...
_____________
Again, please post some sources. The Al Aqsa Brigade are Fatha members who operate on the outside of tha fatha structure. Which btw, is nothing more than a loose umbrella organisation. Some of the fractions of fahta are clearly far beyond Arafats control.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK here are the links u wanted....
This one is about Arafat's and Barghouti's links to suicide attacks
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/15/fatah.arrest/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/15/fatah.arrest/index.html</a>;
This one is about the Red Crescent.
<a href="http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0l690"; target="_blank">http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0l690</a>;
<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/18/News/News.47168.html"; target="_blank">http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/18/News/News.47168.html</a>;
There is plenty more if you want me to send just ask <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>
well you sure no how to make an ending exiting...
I have no sympathy for your arguments. You elected a guy stained with previous war-crimes as a leader... This guy has FIGHT THE ARABS written all over him. He always has...
______________
I'm not just talking about settlements. I'm also talking about this:
(and how new suicide attacks will come frome it)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1.Sharon is no saint but to call him a war criminal is pure twisting of the truth. how can Sharon be accused for a massacre that Arabs performed against Arabs ?
And by following your logic Arafat is far worse then Sharon cos he actually has been a full on terrorist for over 30 years, ordering the murder of so many people .... why do you forgive him so easily ?
If Sharon is a war criminal Arafat is doubly so !
2. What you are talking about is pure speculation and propaganda. and even if all of the Palestinian's claims are true ( which they are NOT) how come its fine for Europeans and Americans to cause the same damege when they go to war in Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan
but when Israel does it every one goes apeshit ...
these double standards stink !
That first article proves nothing on Arafats link to Al Aqsa.
The second article (as far as I can tell) says nothing about a bomb-belt found in an ambulance. It doesn't even state that it is certain that ambulances have been used. So I guess it was just propaganda then...
The third article stinks so bad of self-justification that it doesn't really need any comment. If the picture it portrays is true, then there wouldn't be a single wounded dying from not getting help in time...
<strong>
I have no sympathy for your arguments.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well my friend do u have any sympathy for the 3 Palestinian children who were hurt today when a booby trap made for Israeli soldiers exploded in their face when they were trying to get back home ?
Is it really Israel's fault that the Millitants are that ****ed up that they boobytrap their entire refugee camp without even caring for their own people's lives ?
'As former Israeli prime minister Golda Meir said ?There will only be peace when they
start loving their children more than they hate Israel?.'
I didn't call him a war criminal, I said he was stained by them. As in having been accused of them, and even found indirectly guilty by an official israeli commision. Admit it, he was elected to make the palestinians pay...
You just didn't expect it to go this far...
And your parallels to Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan have no meaning. Simply because none of these countries are occupied now or have been opccupied for a longer period of time... Its not a double standard. I'm starting to think that an international intervention is the right thing here too...
That has to be one of the most racist statements ever made...
Almost as stupid as:
"A land without a people for a people without a land."
<strong>Regretably IDF statements (and the news qoutes of IDF statements) don't impress me much. They've also claimed that less than 50 people were killed in Jenin. I'd had hoped that you'd come up with something better...
That first article proves nothing on Arafats link to Al Aqsa.
The second article (as far as I can tell) says nothing about a bomb-belt found in an ambulance. It doesn't even state that it is certain that ambulances have been used. So I guess it was just propaganda then...
The third article stinks so bad of self-justification that it doesn't really need any comment. If the picture it portrays is true, then there wouldn't be a single wounded dying from not getting help in time...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well dude , I guess it doesn't matter what ever I'll send you or say you will call it lies and propaganda , I guess i'm just full of crap cos I'm a murdering Israeli .. and all I care about is how to spill more Arab blood and all that ... whatever........
Let me just say one thing though.... to solve this conflict people on all sides have to compromise and accept that they are wrong, don't expect any Israeli to take people like you seriously when all you can say about everything Israeli is lies and bullshit this conflict has two sides and both demand respect and you ( and many Europeans like you ) are simply incapable of crediting any respect to the Jewish side.
This will only make a solution more difficult and bring more bloodshed.
But If you want to persue that path I'll gladly follow. I've been trying to turn this thread towards a more solution oriented debate. But we keep on going back to the old b*tching on who has the historic rights or who is the bigger terrorist.
I totaly agree that to start to solve this conflict one needs compromise acceptance that all sides have done wrong. If you go back in the thread you'll see that I (and others) have posted suggestions for compromises and solutions...
<strong>
That has to be one of the most racist statements ever made...
Almost as stupid as:
"A land without a people for a people without a land."</strong><hr></blockquote>
What's racist about this quote ?
Dont they send their children on suicide missions ?
Isn't Sadam paying 25000 $ to any palestinian family who breads a suicide bomber ?
Arn't they hiding behind civilian population when they go into these refugee camps ?
Couldn't Arafat spend the millions he gets from Europe on health and education for these children instead of spending it on suicides and guns ?
Why do they teach their children from age 0 that a good Israeli is a dead Israeli and that one day they will oun Tel Aviv ?
I am not a racist DO NOT call me a racist I belive in coexistance for Jews and arabs in Israel and when i lived in Jerusalem I had good Palestinian friends.
I deeply simpathize with their situation which is why i said I am all for ending the occupation
and stoping the violence
But I will not sit by when my people are being killed daily .
<strong>It is so totally NOT OK for Israeli civilians to be killed by Palestinian terrorists.
It is just fine for Palestinian civilians (terrorists) to be killed by the Israeli military.
It is so OK for Israel to defend itself against Palestinian terrorist attacks
It is unacceptable for Palestinian terrorists to defend themselves from having their homes, farms and villages being demolished.
It is acceptable for Israeli military to defend their land and people against attacks by Palestinian terrorists
It is fine to supply arms to Israeli military to kill people with, yet it is not OK for arms to be supplied to the Palestinian terrorists to kill people with.
An Israeli life is sanctified: a Palestinian life is dispensible.
All Israelis are upstanding humans: All Palestinians are terrorists
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
A simplistic paragraph. What came before what, in response to, etc. is completely ignored by you..................
<strong>
That has to be one of the most racist statements ever made...
Almost as stupid as:
"A land without a people for a people without a land."</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is the most brilliant statements she ever made and it applies equally well today. Only an ignorant moron would fail to find the truth in it................................................ .
It's like saying "all chinese value money over friendship" (only worse).
The Apartheid Regime in South Africa also used to portray the black as "traind killers, filled with hate for every white man". These statements where used to scare the white society from getting to close to the black. This statement has the same effect.
Think: they are probably saying the same thing about us...
i wasn't following your previous arguments throughly, but just from this posting i can see that your natural tendency is to believe the Palestinian side and automatically doubt the Israeli side.
Now, without getting into details of their lies and propaganda (i mean come on, do you really think that people who take the extremem measures of blowing themselves up won't take the 'extreme' measure of lying and inciting? and yes i can prove that to you with links and etc. but why does this matter?)
i think the only fair thing to do, is to let both sides the benefit of the doubt till otherwise proven.
you ask for written prooves, links and etc. to everything that is said to defend Israel but you go about and wildly qoute every romour and every anti Israeli propaganda you've heard from Palesitian side, as if it was pure truth.
now this does not seem fair to me, without even getting to any further details, of the specific facts you mentioned (some of which are very clearly fed by disinformation and propaganda)
it seems to me somewhat superficial to go about and stand to the side of the one that seems 'hard and done by' without making sure he is really what he claims to be.
this is not in anyway coming to discharge the hard life and the suffering that the Palestinian people are undergoing, but to put the sole blame on Israel and to make it a monstrous criminal state is really just shifting attention from the real problem!
please at least take this in, if you really care.
<strong>
A simplistic paragraph. What came before what, in response to, etc. is completely ignored by you..................</strong><hr></blockquote>
-well said Steve666, no idea where Samantha got all those statements from, they seem no more then a provocation to me.
<hr></blockquote>
sorry New, i'm going back and can't help myself from responding to you again.
the term 'occupation' that you so eagerly use here, do you know what in means de facto?
b4 this current wave of violence started Palestinians had full control over the majority of the west bank (known as A zones). just before violence erupted, 18 months ago, Ehud Barak in camp david offered them something like 96% of what they wanted (and please don't nail for 1% up or down) and other territorial and financial compensation for the remaining 4%. not only did Arafta turn it down (as you must know) but soon after El-Aktsa riots started just to show the Israeli people what the Palestinians really thought about this offer.
so much for occupation, i can promise you that Israel wants to end whatever is left of it no less, or even more, then Palestinians.
Did you know that after the 6 days was Israel offered Jordan to take the West bank back and Jordan refused. do you know why? because King Husein was clever enough to predict this time bomb. now this is the real root of the problem. there is no denial to the fact that Palestininans need their own state, but it is also so clear that what is going on now is way beyond that. to ignore their, and the rest of the Arab world, hatred to the Jews and Israelies is blindness, and to not see that what they really want is everything from Jordan to the Mediterrnean sea is to ignore the truth. (and please forgive me all those sane Palestinians who do not feel this way, i know there are some of you out there).
Now the fact that Israel is perhaps too proud to go about and beg the world for salvation, to entice, lie and twist facts to such an extent, or even sometimes to explain itself to the world (maybe foolish, but still no war crime) does not mean that it is not fighting for its life!
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: maya_ash ]
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: maya_ash ]</p>
<strong>It is racist because it labels a whole ethnic group with certain opinions. It's worse because it says this ethnic group values hate of others more than love for their own children.
It's like saying "all chinese value money over friendship" (only worse).
The Apartheid Regime in South Africa also used to portray the black as "traind killers, filled with hate for every white man". These statements where used to scare the white society from getting to close to the black. This statement has the same effect.
Think: they are probably saying the same thing about us...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeh I know you like comparing Israel to SA ... its a very effective way to add wight to your arguments , but sorry it dosn't wash. Israel treats ALL its citizens fairly and even though there are tension between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis they are both citizens with equal rights ( some Arabs even serve in the IDF )
its funny but the only place in the middle east where Arabs can live in a democracy is Israel ...... think about that....
BTW here are some more of those links you asked for...
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/02/al.aqsa.finances/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/02/al.aqsa.finances/index.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146300&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146300&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0</a>
( this is from Israel's most respected newspaper which is by the way considered rather leftwing and very moderate and reliable - but you would still dismiss this no doubt...)
Hello maya!
If you read the thread thorughly you'll see that I nowhere use arab/palestinian sources as main sources. I believe both sids try to make their versions "better", so I generaly stay away from the propaganda sites. Real journalism and historic fact are much more interesting anyway.
I mainly try to get my information from as neutral sources as posible. I prefer to use israeli sources if I can. Like the Statistics Burau, or the Israeli Human Rights Organisations. If an arab is quoted be sure the quote is taken from a jew who quoted him. I use the UN. I used the US State department. And I even used the map hanging on my wall as a source to prove that the "1913-quote" from the republican senator was a constructed argument.
When I ask for written prove it because I expect other to be as thourgh. clipping a story from CNN quoting the Israeli army is not a valid form of proving anything. When someone claims that I am speading propaganda, I ask them to back up their claims...
To me there is not one palestininan and one israeli side here. There are extreemist on both sides who gain power by having the conflict intensifying. And there are moderats, humanist and intellectuals on both sides who are honestly working hard for peace. (they do not have a very good representation amonge the leadership these days).
If you want to work towards peace, one of the first things you have to do (like rashumon said) is to admit guilt. And facts. If you claim nothing bad has been done, then why the need to reconcile? The truth is not nice but it need to be told. Everytime You say Israel is wrong, the answer is "no they are not, and the arabs are wronger" (see the contradiction?).
Everyone can see that the palestinians are doing wrong. Still the numbers say that there are 5 palestinians dead for every israeli, and that 40 % of them are childern and youths. How do you explain this?
One side here has the power (both military, financially and intellectually) to really change the situation. To make real peace, not just endless negotiations and toothless compromises, but It's will cost Israel a lot.
The other side is weak. They can only act the way they do. How anyone can believe that any of the leaders can actually stop the violence is beyond me...
Violence like this don't need leaders, only opponents. The leaders of most occupied people are either in prison or in exile, or they are killed and made legends of (or t-shirts)... The conflict is about occupation. It has been for 35 years. The security issue is important. But to think this conflict is about security is to bend over, sorry.
This was a reply to your first post. I see from your second and third, that you have already picked sides, and are joining the choir of excusing the occupation and blaming everything on the palestinians...
<strong>It is racist because it labels a whole ethnic group with certain opinions. It's worse because it says this ethnic group values hate of others more than love for their own children.
It's like saying "all chinese value money over friendship" (only worse).
The Apartheid Regime in South Africa also used to portray the black as "traind killers, filled with hate for every white man". These statements where used to scare the white society from getting to close to the black. This statement has the same effect.
Think: they are probably saying the same thing about us...</strong><hr></blockquote>
racism- you so much like this word. and aren't you racist against Israel?
and by comparing it to prejudice about Chinese (mind you- your own words) or to aparthide in South Africa you yourself send a subliminal message of racism, of anti-ism.
<strong>
Everyone can see that the palestinians are doing wrong. Still the numbers say that there are 5 palestinians dead for every israeli, and that 40 % of them are childern and youths. How do you explain this?
One side here has the power (both military, financially and intellectually) to really change the situation. To make real peace, not just endless negotiations and toothless compromises, but It's will cost Israel a lot.
The other side is weak. They can only act the way they do. How anyone can believe that any of the leaders can actually stop the violence is beyond me... </strong><hr></blockquote>
1. Again mate , your numbers and facts are wrong ! since the start of the Intefada there has been about 500 Israelis killed and around 1500 Palestinians killed ..... almost all Israeli casualties are civilian and a large percetage of Palestinian casualties are Millitants .
Palestinians deliberatly trget civilians Israel dosen't !
2. I agree with some of the things you say and I personally believe that if Israel cannot achieve a cease fire and a return to negotiations soon it should simply do a one sided withdrawl from the occupied territories. and that would negate all this disscution about occupation.
But what you're asking us to do is to roll over and excuse the killing of our civilians ... that is unacceptable. it's easy to suggest this when you live in far away peaceful Scandinavia but lets see you handle daily life in Israel.
Any way its been tried before and failed- for 8 years Israel was talking to the palestinians we had times when there were horrific suicide bombing ( like in 1996 when more the 70 Israelis lost their lives in less then a month) but Israel held its pain and continued to talk peace and did not retaliate. what did we get in return ? nothing! only more violence, hate, incitement, and demands ....
I really belive the only solution is for Israel to declare a unilateral separation and detach itself completely from this mess.