Why don't you explain my methodology and my "hidden agenda" then.
quote
From what I understand, David Irving?s line of argument during the *trial* was this. He did not really deny the evidence of mass murder by Nazis and their sympathizers of European Jews. This is impossible since they themselves documented this. Rather, David Irving denies that Hitler and the higher echelons in the Nazi regime were responsible for it.
Disregarding his fabrications of history, this is really the same line of argument New has taken here. No one, not even New, can deny that war crimes against Israel have been committed by Arabs belonging to the Fattah organization and the PLO. New, can?t deny this because the war criminals themselves claim they belong to Arafat?s organization where they are glorified. Yet, New's line of argument is that there is no link between these people?s actions and Arafat. Even though Arafat is the chairman of that organization, and like Hitler enjoys absolute power within his regime. New likes to argue that Arafat is not at all responsible for the deliberate civilian mass murder committed by his organization(s) - that he is a legitimate statesperson. When presented with evidence of direct knowledge and financing of these war crimes activities, New is typically silent.
quote:
Your statment on how I protect Arafat at all costs ss pure BS. I'm asking for concrete, objective evidence. Not propaganda from millitary sources.\t
Ok. Let me get this straight. Are you saying that the document(s) seized by the IDF showing Arafat financing the suicide Terror is pure fiction invented by the Israel? And the seizure of the Karine-A, a ship loaded with 50 Tons! of mortars, missiles, mines, explosives, etc. was another propaganda ploy by Israel?
How come ever time someone points a finger on israeli policy, all you can answer is:
"- look at Arafat, he is at least twice as bad as us!"
I'm showing you the duplicity of your argument. As well as the duplicity of your European politicians. And the duplicity of the U.N. you're so fond of mentioning.
quote:
And your post re the U.N resolution only has wording condemning Israel specifically. No other parties are mentioned by name. How this relates to attacks on Israel by Lebanon is beyond me.
[quote] Disregarding his fabrications of history... <hr></blockquote>
Come on enlighten me!
[quote]Even though Arafat is the chairman of that organization, and like Hitler enjoys absolute power within his regime. <hr></blockquote>
Obviously your not aware that the PLO have always refused religious groups admitance to the PLO, like Hamas and the Jihad. Yet he is supposed to have full control?
[quote] Your statment on how I protect Arafat at all costs ss pure BS. I'm asking for concrete, objective evidence. Not propaganda from millitary sources.\t
Ok. Let me get this straight. Are you saying that the document(s) seized by the IDF showing Arafat financing the suicide Terror is pure fiction invented by the Israel? And the seizure of the Karine-A, a ship loaded with 50 Tons! of mortars, missiles, mines, explosives, etc. was another propaganda ploy by Israel?
<hr></blockquote>
We'll have to see what the final conclusions on those documents are. I'm open on this. We have also yet to see evidence that links Arafat to that ship. I believe some high ranking officer was fired for this? still he might be indirectly implicated. I don't know. Can we talk about Israels policies now? I'm getting tired of you trying to get me to defend the PLO. Its not very constructive and I'm really not that big a fan. But I believe the PLO/PA are the only ones who can negotiate on behalf of the palestinians, not all of the members are bad, some are very good politicians (like Nashrwi, Erekat and Rabbo), and I'd prefer them over Hamas any day of the week.
[quote] quote:
And your post re the U.N resolution only has wording condemning Israel specifically. No other parties are mentioned by name. How this relates to attacks on Israel by Lebanon is beyond me.
<hr></blockquote>
I thought both parties was beyond misunderstanding. Who do you think the other party is. Luxenbourg?
[quote] I'll assume you ignored this for a reason. <hr></blockquote>
I think you are the one doing the majority of ignoring here. I've been trying to systematicly answer most point. While you seem to generaly avoid any of the real points beeing made here.
[quote] I'm showing you the duplicity of your argument. As well as the duplicity of your European politicians. And the duplicity of the U.N. you're so fond of mentioning. <hr></blockquote>
I don't get it so I'll ask you directly instead:
Do you agree that the israeli policy is wrong? Or do you feel Sharon is doing everything right (his closest Likud advisor just quit today)? Do you actually think that the actions of the last weeks have discuraged young palestinians from voulnteering as suicide bombers? Do you think peace is closer now than a month ago? And finally, do you really think my aims are anything more than to further the palestinian idependence cause, and the hope for a lasting peace? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Here, I'll help you see some of the consequences of israeli policy:
[quote]Dunia Shtaya, a three-day-old baby, died last night at Al-Watani hospital in Nablus. Shtaya was born to her parents following two years of fertility treatments. On Monday, April 15, 2002, Dunia?s mother, 22-year-old Sirin Shtaya from the village of Salem in Nablus District began having labor pains. Her husband, Nasser Shtaya, called the Red Crescent in Nablus for an ambulance. However, due to IDF imposed restrictions on movement in the Occupied Territories, the ambulance could not make it to the village, which is only 5 kilometers away from Nablus. Nasser Shtaya called Dr. ?Abd al-Wahab Mahrouz, a local physician, who delivered Dunia at the couple?s home. Dunia did not receive the necessary immunizations after her birth, since these were unavailable. At 8:00 PM last night, Dr. Mahrouz examined Dunia. Having diagnosed her as suffering an oxygen deficiency and an irregular heart beat, he determined that she should be admitted to hospital immediately. Almost three hours after the family sent for an ambulance, it arrived from Nablus and took Dunia and her parents to the hospital. However, on route to the hospital the ambulance was detained again. IDF soldiers besieging the village of Salem forced the passengers to get out of the ambulance and delayed them for some 15 minutes. The ambulance was detained again by IDF soldiers 1.5 kilometers from the hospital. They detained the ambulance for a further 30 minutes. Only at around 11:30 PM, did the ambulance make it to the hospital. A physician at the hospital pronounced the baby dead on arrival. (Source: B'Tselem)
<hr></blockquote>
This death will not make it to the statistic mind you, because deaths caused by delayed medical treatment are not counted...
Well, I can see that the basic premise of my argument still holds true. New = David Irving. Only in your case, there is a ?smoking gun? connecting Arafat and his regime to the mass murder if Israelis. And not just one but several. Of-course you decide it?s not sufficient proof. So according to you, Arafat has no link to these mass killings.
That?s very interesting, since according to you, and others supporting the pro-Arab view, Sharon is directly responsible for the killings of Muslim Arabs by Christian Arabs that happened in the 1982 war.
Obviously your not aware that the PLO have always refused religious groups admitance to the PLO, like Hamas and the Jihad. Yet he is supposed to have full control?
Are you for real?!? 40,000 paramilitary police is still not enough to have them under control?
You don?t see the duplicity in the U.N concerning Israel. What a surprise.
quote:
Do you agree that the israeli policy is wrong?
No. War crimes have been committed and those responsible need to be held accountable. Including Arafat and his gang.
quote:
Or do you feel Sharon is doing everything right (his closest Likud advisor just quit today)?
No. Since the media likes so much to make this into a show, I would have charged them for tickets. How about a billion dollars a month for the coverage. These vampires live off our blood - literally!
quote:
Do you actually think that the actions of the last weeks have discuraged young palestinians from voulnteering as suicide bombers?
Very much so. Maybe now their mothers and fathers will think twice before declaring the murderous sons and daughters ?martyrs?.
quote:
Do you think peace is closer now than a month ago?
Actually, Yes.
quote:
And finally, do you really think my aims are anything more than to further the palestinian idependence cause, and the hope for a lasting peace?
The mirror is there, go have a look. I'd say the same if you where a palestinian, except you probably wouldn't have a whole mirror anymore.
Gee New, how many times on this thread have you commented or posted pictures of Israelis suffering at the hands of Arabs. You know the people living in that town received warnings to leave prior to the IDF going in. Those houses can be rebuilt. The lives of Israelis lost to suicide terror will never be rebuilt. Think about that you...
Wow, either you not in Hafia at all, or you just did an all-nighter. I'm impressed.
[quote] Only in your case, there is a ?smoking gun? connecting Arafat and his regime to the mass murder if Israelis. And not just one but several. Of-course you decide it?s not sufficient proof. So according to you, Arafat has no link to these mass killings.
That?s very interesting, since according to you, and others supporting the pro-Arab view, Sharon is directly responsible for the killings of Muslim Arabs by Christian Arabs that happened in the 1982 war. <hr></blockquote>
Reread my posts. I said the evidence yet was not sufficient. (mind you, there also is a difference between arms-smuggeling and bombings). I also never stated that Sharon was directly responsible. I said an israeli official inquiry found him indirectly responsible.
[quote] Are you for real?!? 40,000 paramilitary police is still not enough to have them under control? <hr></blockquote>
Well, both the CIA and the FBI failed to stop 9/11. And whats left of that force now?
[quote] 6 years later where are the settlements? oh, wait, there they are, bigger than last year...
You are a duplicitous Racist. So now Judea and Samaria must be Jew free. <hr></blockquote>
oh god, more name-calling. Not jew free, but free of illigal settlements. Do you see the difference?
[quote] Do you agree that the israeli policy is wrong?
No. War crimes have been committed and those responsible need to be held accountable. Including Arafat and his gang. <hr></blockquote>
So only one side is wrong?
[quote] Or do you feel Sharon is doing everything right (his closest Likud advisor just quit today)?
No. Since the media likes so much to make this into a show, I would have charged them for tickets. How about a billion dollars a month for the coverage. I bet these vultures made more money off our blood than they did on the Olympics. <hr></blockquote>
How does this relate to Sharon? And No to what?
[quote] quote:
Do you actually think that the actions of the last weeks have discuraged young palestinians from voulnteering as suicide bombers?
Very much so. Maybe now their mothers and fathers will think twice before declaring the murderous sons and daughters ?martyrs?.
quote:
Do you think peace is closer now than a month ago?
Actually, Yes <hr></blockquote>
well, this pretty much says all on where you stand then.
[quote] quote:
And finally, do you really think my aims are anything more than to further the palestinian idependence cause, and the hope for a lasting peace?
No peace without Justice. <hr></blockquote>
This really doesn't answer the question, but I still agree with you. No peace without justice. But who defines justice? Would you be willing to let a neutral part do that?
I also notice how you fail to answer half of my points.
- And no, I really havn't posted that many pictures. But here are some:
Well, both the CIA and the FBI failed to stop 9/11. And whats left of that force now?
New, I know you?re an intelligent fellow, but sometimes I wonder if you really believe what you post here, or you just post to exasperate us all. The Americans were dealing with an external threat from parties far far away, to whom they had no real access.
There is no just comparison between the two. Afarat had since the sighning of Oslo, 10 years to bring these people to justice. He had, and still has, very tight control over those territories. The PA is an autocracy just like the rest of the Arab regimes. Nothing goes on in those places that is not sanctioned or is under the direct control of the regime.
Don?t you find it strange that Israel can find the militants and their bomb making workshops and Arafat couldn?t? He couldn?t because he didn?t try. And I?m not even speaking about his own paramilitary that snipe daily at Israeli motorists going to and from work.
quote:
oh god, more name-calling. Not jew free, but free of illigal settlements. Do you see the difference?
No I don?t. I think you are asking to remove all Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria and Gaza. But if you?re not, I?ll be happy to hear more of your thought on this. Perhaps a way to make them "legal"?
quote:
So only one side is wrong?
So far, the only documented occurrences of war crimes were committed by the Arabs.
quote:
How does this relate to Sharon? And No to what?
I believe Sharon has been way too soft on the media here. I believe they need to be systematically looked at. Press Licences need to be decided on a case by case basis. I would start with revoking all press coverage to foreigners. And work our way from there.
quote:
I also notice how you fail to answer half of my points.
I try my best to keep up. And perhaps I shouldn?t. This is taking way too much of my time. But if I miss any points, feel free to persist. However, your debating strategy seems to be to throw as many grenades (ludicrous assertions) into the debate and leave me and others to try and defuse them. It doesn?t take much to say that the Earth is flat. But it?s much more difficult to convince it?s not. Especially someone who is quite content in just provoking a debate and not assimilating any comprehension provided in the debate.
quote
And this does not look like justice to me:
Here?s another example of the point above. Personally, I would not have gone in there with ground troops. I would have used artillery. And I would not have given any warning to the residents prior to the bombing. Israelis never get a warning prior to them being bombed. Let?s use a single standard for all and stop the duplicity. Of course if Israel did that, there immediately be a commission in the UN and an international tribunal to try Israelis for that action. Yet after 10 years of suicide bombings by Arabs there?s yet to be anyone brought to trial for war crimes.
[quote]The PA is an autocracy just like the rest of the Arab regimes. Nothing goes on in those places that is not sanctioned or is under the direct control of the regime."<hr></blockquote>
wow, you have a simplistic understanding of the world. Just a few months ago armed Hamas-supporters attacked a palestinian police stations because of the arrests of Hamas leaders. This does not sound like control to me. No regime, no matter how totalitarian, has perfect control. And what he had, it is certainly lost now...
That beeing said, I agree that more could have been done. I've never claimed that things where good. But I hold it that they are so much worse now. And israeli policy is very much to blame.
[quote]I think you are asking to remove all Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria and Gaza. But if you?re not, I?ll be happy to hear more of your thought on this. Perhaps a way to make them "legal"?<hr></blockquote>
No, Think all palestinian jews, and other jews immigrated in a "legal" maner have just as much right to stay as any other palestinian or legal immigrant. And as far as I know they have.
My impression is that many of the settlers would not be willing to stay if they where put under "palestinian rule". There is also the question the real ownership of the land. Are the settlements even legaly situated. Who owns the land? At least in some cases I bet the plaestinian farmers would like their land back. But this is really an interesting discussion. Best discussionpoint you have brought up so far.
Did you read this:
"Banging his fist on the table, Sharon said, "There will be no discussion on uprooting settlements until November 2003." Even after this date, the scheduled election date, he said, "I am not sure there will be a discussion on this."
Jerusalem Post
[quote]So far, the only documented occurrences of war crimes were committed by the Arabs.<hr></blockquote>
Heard about Deir Yassin? Lydda and Ramle? Doueimah? Quibya? Kafr Kassem? Do some reading, there are even zionist sources on this...
[quote]I believe Sharon has been way too soft on the media here. I believe they need to be systematically looked at. Press Licences need to be decided on a case by case basis. I would start with revoking all press coverage to foreigners. And work our way from there.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, I've seen the examples on how free the israeli press really is. Like Sharon slamming israeli TV for brodacsting the interview with the UN special envoy. He didn't even critisize the icursions, only the fact that Aid had been keept out for 11 days. And you call yourself a democracy? What a joke...
[quote]Here?s another example of the point above. Personally, I would not have gone in there with ground troops. I would have used artillery. And I would not have given any warning to the residents prior to the bombing. Israelis never get a warning prior to them being bombed. Let?s use a single standard for all and stop the duplicity. Of course if Israel did that, there immediately be a commission in the UN and an international tribunal to try Israelis for that action. Yet after 10 years of suicide bombings by Arabs there?s yet to be anyone brought to trial for war crimes.<hr></blockquote>
Using the same standard for terrorist and a regular army? Are you joking? And btw you can't prosecute a terrorist for war crimes. for terrorism yes, but not war crime. That would be the same as recognising terrorist as "legal" combatants, and you wouldn't do that, or what? The Israeli side has had its shares of terrorist as well, remember Baruk Goldstein and Yigal Amir? Get real.
There is also the question the real ownership of the land
Ok. Let?s ask this question then. How did this land come into the possession of Arabs, and how did it come to the possession of Jews?
quote
Heard about Deir Yassin? Lydda and Ramle? Doueimah? Quibya? Kafr Kassem? Do some reading, there are even zionist sources on this...
It?s interesting how these surface almost 50 years later. When no one can really verify the claims of these rumors. Unlike the 500 dead rumor just circulated by Arabs and CNN?s Cristian Amanpour.
quote
And you call yourself a democracy? What a joke...
Good. You should be having a good laugh then. But what happens when you watch the Arab media? Do you have a good cry?
quote
And btw you can't prosecute a terrorist for war crimes. for terrorism yes, but not war crime. That would be the same as recognising terrorist as "legal" combatants.
Hmm?. So are you saying we shouldn?t have recognized Arafat and his terror organizations as legal agents of the Arab people after all?
But maybe are you saying that we shouldn?t put on trial any of these characters, for any crimes?
hmm, I feel we're getting closer to a constructive discussion here.
[quote] Ok. Let?s ask this question then. How did this land come into the possession of Arabs, and how did it come to the possession of Jews? <hr></blockquote>
The land was in Arab, then it was occupied. The arab who lived there were ousted, and some settlements where set up illigaly, even buy Israeli law, others were subsidized heavily by the Israeli government. The settlements have been steadily increesed, even the ones isreal has internationally agreed to freeze. I believe only the settlements in Sinai, when it was given back to Egypt have ever been totally dismanteled as a part of a peace accord.
[quote] It?s interesting how these surface almost 50 years later. When no one can really verify the claims of these rumors. Unlike the 500 dead rumor just circulated by Arabs and CNN?s Cristian Amanpour. <hr></blockquote>
The <a href="http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/"; target="_blank">evidence</a> is hard. And we're talking about war crimes commited in the very beggining of the conflict here. From which everyting has escaleted ever since. My aim in going back this far was mainly to show how hard it can be to find out who threw the first stone... The important ting is getting the throwing to stop.
[quote] Good. You should be having a good laugh then. But what happens when you watch the Arab media? Do you have a good cry? <hr></blockquote>
Again, pointing fingers elsewhere. If Isreal has nothing to hide, then not admitting foregin journalist is just plain stupid. Why is it that B'Tselem states: "The Israeli media refrains from publishing the information it receives regarding human rights violations against innocent civilians. As a result, the Israeli public receives only the information provided by the IDF spokesperson, who disregards these violations."
[quote] Hmm?. So are you saying we shouldn?t have recognized Arafat and his terror organizations as a legal agents of the Arab people after all?
But maybe are you saying that we shouldn?t put on trial any of these characters, for any crimes? <hr></blockquote>
No, I'm saying terrorist should be tried as terrorist. And millitary should be expected to follow the Geneva convention. And if you start mixing the two, you are cutting of the branch on which your sitting. You don't see Spain demolishing cities in the Bask region do you?
There is no evidence. You?re again speculating on rumors of events that happened 50+ years ago and are now impossible to verify. If the Arabs had any concerns, they should have addressed them at the time. To bring these charges now is ridiculous. And I?m not even going to indulge you on this any further.
quote
The land was in Arab, then it was occupied.
That?s why the land was called Judea. Because it was Arab land. Maybe as evidence to the contrary you?d like to post a quote from David Irving to confirm that it was all a Jewish fiction.
quote
If Isreal has nothing to hide, then not admitting foregin journalist is just plain stupid. Why is it that B'Tselem states: "The Israeli media refrains from publishing the information it receives regarding human rights violations against innocent civilians.
Information needs verification. And unlike CNN and other foreign media networks, which will do ANYTHING and spread any kind of sensational rumor to make a fast buck off this conflict, Israeli media, particularly publicly owned Israeli media should be held to a higher standard.
quote
No, I'm saying terrorist should be tried as terrorist. And millitary should be expected to follow the Geneva convention. And if you start mixing the two, you are cutting of the branch on which your sitting.
Seems like you?re trying to have it both ways again. (What a surprise ). On the one hand you say that terrorist should not be seen as "legal" combatants, and on the other hand you are perfectly happy legitimizing Arafat and his terrorist regime.
First let me state that I think no country should have an official religion. It just creates problems. I don't like defending Israel, but I am absolutely amazed at the ridiculous term that has been thrown about regarding disputed territories. This alleged "occupation" is nonsense. Israel was attacked from all sides and somehow was not only able to fend them off, but they were able to drive their attackers out of these now "disputed occupied territories." They got the land fair and square in a DEFENSIVE war. They didn't ask to be attacked simultaneously by a multitude of countries that intended on utterly destroying Israel.
Should the United States give back California to Mexico? No. Israel shouldn't be forced to give back any land to the Palestinians. Frankly, the Palestinians should just shut up, stop whining, and take whatever they can get from Israel.
Oh, by the way, I love how our fearless leader decided to back pedal after initially supporting the Israelis. He forgot that our Saudi "friends" who supply us our damn oil don't like Israel. I bet he'll just use this as another excuse to drill in ANWR instead of mandating an increase in fuel efficiency across the board in all new cars produced. But I digress.
Comments
"- look at Arafat, he is at least twice as bad as us!"
or
"- look at the americans, they play world police, why can't we?"
and then:
" - And btw we are innocent victims, and have done nothing wrong! "
The mirror is there, go have a look. I'd say the same if you where a palestinian, except you probably wouldn't have a whole mirror anymore
Why don't you explain my methodology and my "hidden agenda" then.
quote
From what I understand, David Irving?s line of argument during the *trial* was this. He did not really deny the evidence of mass murder by Nazis and their sympathizers of European Jews. This is impossible since they themselves documented this. Rather, David Irving denies that Hitler and the higher echelons in the Nazi regime were responsible for it.
Disregarding his fabrications of history, this is really the same line of argument New has taken here. No one, not even New, can deny that war crimes against Israel have been committed by Arabs belonging to the Fattah organization and the PLO. New, can?t deny this because the war criminals themselves claim they belong to Arafat?s organization where they are glorified. Yet, New's line of argument is that there is no link between these people?s actions and Arafat. Even though Arafat is the chairman of that organization, and like Hitler enjoys absolute power within his regime. New likes to argue that Arafat is not at all responsible for the deliberate civilian mass murder committed by his organization(s) - that he is a legitimate statesperson. When presented with evidence of direct knowledge and financing of these war crimes activities, New is typically silent.
quote:
Your statment on how I protect Arafat at all costs ss pure BS. I'm asking for concrete, objective evidence. Not propaganda from millitary sources.\t
Ok. Let me get this straight. Are you saying that the document(s) seized by the IDF showing Arafat financing the suicide Terror is pure fiction invented by the Israel? And the seizure of the Karine-A, a ship loaded with 50 Tons! of mortars, missiles, mines, explosives, etc. was another propaganda ploy by Israel?
mika.
[ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
How come ever time someone points a finger on israeli policy, all you can answer is:
"- look at Arafat, he is at least twice as bad as us!"
I'm showing you the duplicity of your argument. As well as the duplicity of your European politicians. And the duplicity of the U.N. you're so fond of mentioning.
quote:
And your post re the U.N resolution only has wording condemning Israel specifically. No other parties are mentioned by name. How this relates to attacks on Israel by Lebanon is beyond me.
I'll assume you ignored this for a reason.
Did you also read the part on the points in the charter being nullified and void?
Again. 6 years later, where is the new amended Charter?
mika.
Come on enlighten me!
[quote]Even though Arafat is the chairman of that organization, and like Hitler enjoys absolute power within his regime. <hr></blockquote>
Obviously your not aware that the PLO have always refused religious groups admitance to the PLO, like Hamas and the Jihad. Yet he is supposed to have full control?
[quote] Your statment on how I protect Arafat at all costs ss pure BS. I'm asking for concrete, objective evidence. Not propaganda from millitary sources.\t
Ok. Let me get this straight. Are you saying that the document(s) seized by the IDF showing Arafat financing the suicide Terror is pure fiction invented by the Israel? And the seizure of the Karine-A, a ship loaded with 50 Tons! of mortars, missiles, mines, explosives, etc. was another propaganda ploy by Israel?
<hr></blockquote>
We'll have to see what the final conclusions on those documents are. I'm open on this. We have also yet to see evidence that links Arafat to that ship. I believe some high ranking officer was fired for this? still he might be indirectly implicated. I don't know. Can we talk about Israels policies now? I'm getting tired of you trying to get me to defend the PLO. Its not very constructive and I'm really not that big a fan. But I believe the PLO/PA are the only ones who can negotiate on behalf of the palestinians, not all of the members are bad, some are very good politicians (like Nashrwi, Erekat and Rabbo), and I'd prefer them over Hamas any day of the week.
[quote] quote:
And your post re the U.N resolution only has wording condemning Israel specifically. No other parties are mentioned by name. How this relates to attacks on Israel by Lebanon is beyond me.
<hr></blockquote>
I thought both parties was beyond misunderstanding. Who do you think the other party is. Luxenbourg?
[quote] I'll assume you ignored this for a reason. <hr></blockquote>
I think you are the one doing the majority of ignoring here. I've been trying to systematicly answer most point. While you seem to generaly avoid any of the real points beeing made here.
[quote] I'm showing you the duplicity of your argument. As well as the duplicity of your European politicians. And the duplicity of the U.N. you're so fond of mentioning. <hr></blockquote>
I don't get it so I'll ask you directly instead:
Do you agree that the israeli policy is wrong? Or do you feel Sharon is doing everything right (his closest Likud advisor just quit today)? Do you actually think that the actions of the last weeks have discuraged young palestinians from voulnteering as suicide bombers? Do you think peace is closer now than a month ago? And finally, do you really think my aims are anything more than to further the palestinian idependence cause, and the hope for a lasting peace? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
Did you also read the part on the points in the charter being nullified and void?
Again. 6 years later, where is the new amended Charter?
<hr></blockquote>
Again. No charter is better than a wrong one, right?
And Again. 6 years later where are the settlements? oh, wait, there they are, bigger than last year...
[quote]Dunia Shtaya, a three-day-old baby, died last night at Al-Watani hospital in Nablus. Shtaya was born to her parents following two years of fertility treatments. On Monday, April 15, 2002, Dunia?s mother, 22-year-old Sirin Shtaya from the village of Salem in Nablus District began having labor pains. Her husband, Nasser Shtaya, called the Red Crescent in Nablus for an ambulance. However, due to IDF imposed restrictions on movement in the Occupied Territories, the ambulance could not make it to the village, which is only 5 kilometers away from Nablus. Nasser Shtaya called Dr. ?Abd al-Wahab Mahrouz, a local physician, who delivered Dunia at the couple?s home. Dunia did not receive the necessary immunizations after her birth, since these were unavailable. At 8:00 PM last night, Dr. Mahrouz examined Dunia. Having diagnosed her as suffering an oxygen deficiency and an irregular heart beat, he determined that she should be admitted to hospital immediately. Almost three hours after the family sent for an ambulance, it arrived from Nablus and took Dunia and her parents to the hospital. However, on route to the hospital the ambulance was detained again. IDF soldiers besieging the village of Salem forced the passengers to get out of the ambulance and delayed them for some 15 minutes. The ambulance was detained again by IDF soldiers 1.5 kilometers from the hospital. They detained the ambulance for a further 30 minutes. Only at around 11:30 PM, did the ambulance make it to the hospital. A physician at the hospital pronounced the baby dead on arrival. (Source: B'Tselem)
<hr></blockquote>
This death will not make it to the statistic mind you, because deaths caused by delayed medical treatment are not counted...
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
That?s very interesting, since according to you, and others supporting the pro-Arab view, Sharon is directly responsible for the killings of Muslim Arabs by Christian Arabs that happened in the 1982 war.
mika.
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Obviously your not aware that the PLO have always refused religious groups admitance to the PLO, like Hamas and the Jihad. Yet he is supposed to have full control?
Are you for real?!? 40,000 paramilitary police is still not enough to have them under control?
mika.
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
6 years later where are the settlements? oh, wait, there they are, bigger than last year...
You are a duplicitous Racist. So now Judea and Samaria must be Jew free. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
mika.
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
I don't get it so I'll ask you directly instead:
You don?t see the duplicity in the U.N concerning Israel. What a surprise.
quote:
Do you agree that the israeli policy is wrong?
No. War crimes have been committed and those responsible need to be held accountable. Including Arafat and his gang.
quote:
Or do you feel Sharon is doing everything right (his closest Likud advisor just quit today)?
No. Since the media likes so much to make this into a show, I would have charged them for tickets. How about a billion dollars a month for the coverage. These vampires live off our blood - literally!
quote:
Do you actually think that the actions of the last weeks have discuraged young palestinians from voulnteering as suicide bombers?
Very much so. Maybe now their mothers and fathers will think twice before declaring the murderous sons and daughters ?martyrs?.
quote:
Do you think peace is closer now than a month ago?
Actually, Yes.
quote:
And finally, do you really think my aims are anything more than to further the palestinian idependence cause, and the hope for a lasting peace?
No peace without Justice.
mika.
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
The mirror is there, go have a look. I'd say the same if you where a palestinian, except you probably wouldn't have a whole mirror anymore.
Gee New, how many times on this thread have you commented or posted pictures of Israelis suffering at the hands of Arabs. You know the people living in that town received warnings to leave prior to the IDF going in. Those houses can be rebuilt. The lives of Israelis lost to suicide terror will never be rebuilt. Think about that you...
mika.
[quote] Only in your case, there is a ?smoking gun? connecting Arafat and his regime to the mass murder if Israelis. And not just one but several. Of-course you decide it?s not sufficient proof. So according to you, Arafat has no link to these mass killings.
That?s very interesting, since according to you, and others supporting the pro-Arab view, Sharon is directly responsible for the killings of Muslim Arabs by Christian Arabs that happened in the 1982 war. <hr></blockquote>
Reread my posts. I said the evidence yet was not sufficient. (mind you, there also is a difference between arms-smuggeling and bombings). I also never stated that Sharon was directly responsible. I said an israeli official inquiry found him indirectly responsible.
[quote] Are you for real?!? 40,000 paramilitary police is still not enough to have them under control? <hr></blockquote>
Well, both the CIA and the FBI failed to stop 9/11. And whats left of that force now?
[quote] 6 years later where are the settlements? oh, wait, there they are, bigger than last year...
You are a duplicitous Racist. So now Judea and Samaria must be Jew free. <hr></blockquote>
oh god, more name-calling. Not jew free, but free of illigal settlements. Do you see the difference?
[quote] Do you agree that the israeli policy is wrong?
No. War crimes have been committed and those responsible need to be held accountable. Including Arafat and his gang. <hr></blockquote>
So only one side is wrong?
[quote] Or do you feel Sharon is doing everything right (his closest Likud advisor just quit today)?
No. Since the media likes so much to make this into a show, I would have charged them for tickets. How about a billion dollars a month for the coverage. I bet these vultures made more money off our blood than they did on the Olympics. <hr></blockquote>
How does this relate to Sharon? And No to what?
[quote] quote:
Do you actually think that the actions of the last weeks have discuraged young palestinians from voulnteering as suicide bombers?
Very much so. Maybe now their mothers and fathers will think twice before declaring the murderous sons and daughters ?martyrs?.
quote:
Do you think peace is closer now than a month ago?
Actually, Yes <hr></blockquote>
well, this pretty much says all on where you stand then.
[quote] quote:
And finally, do you really think my aims are anything more than to further the palestinian idependence cause, and the hope for a lasting peace?
No peace without Justice. <hr></blockquote>
This really doesn't answer the question, but I still agree with you. No peace without justice. But who defines justice? Would you be willing to let a neutral part do that?
I also notice how you fail to answer half of my points.
- And no, I really havn't posted that many pictures. But here are some:
see a jew is not only a jew:
And this does not look like justice to me:
Well, both the CIA and the FBI failed to stop 9/11. And whats left of that force now?
New, I know you?re an intelligent fellow, but sometimes I wonder if you really believe what you post here, or you just post to exasperate us all. The Americans were dealing with an external threat from parties far far away, to whom they had no real access.
There is no just comparison between the two. Afarat had since the sighning of Oslo, 10 years to bring these people to justice. He had, and still has, very tight control over those territories. The PA is an autocracy just like the rest of the Arab regimes. Nothing goes on in those places that is not sanctioned or is under the direct control of the regime.
Don?t you find it strange that Israel can find the militants and their bomb making workshops and Arafat couldn?t? He couldn?t because he didn?t try. And I?m not even speaking about his own paramilitary that snipe daily at Israeli motorists going to and from work.
quote:
oh god, more name-calling. Not jew free, but free of illigal settlements. Do you see the difference?
No I don?t. I think you are asking to remove all Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria and Gaza. But if you?re not, I?ll be happy to hear more of your thought on this. Perhaps a way to make them "legal"?
quote:
So only one side is wrong?
So far, the only documented occurrences of war crimes were committed by the Arabs.
quote:
How does this relate to Sharon? And No to what?
I believe Sharon has been way too soft on the media here. I believe they need to be systematically looked at. Press Licences need to be decided on a case by case basis. I would start with revoking all press coverage to foreigners. And work our way from there.
quote:
I also notice how you fail to answer half of my points.
I try my best to keep up. And perhaps I shouldn?t. This is taking way too much of my time. But if I miss any points, feel free to persist. However, your debating strategy seems to be to throw as many grenades (ludicrous assertions) into the debate and leave me and others to try and defuse them. It doesn?t take much to say that the Earth is flat. But it?s much more difficult to convince it?s not. Especially someone who is quite content in just provoking a debate and not assimilating any comprehension provided in the debate.
quote
And this does not look like justice to me:
Here?s another example of the point above. Personally, I would not have gone in there with ground troops. I would have used artillery. And I would not have given any warning to the residents prior to the bombing. Israelis never get a warning prior to them being bombed. Let?s use a single standard for all and stop the duplicity. Of course if Israel did that, there immediately be a commission in the UN and an international tribunal to try Israelis for that action. Yet after 10 years of suicide bombings by Arabs there?s yet to be anyone brought to trial for war crimes.
mika.
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
wow, you have a simplistic understanding of the world. Just a few months ago armed Hamas-supporters attacked a palestinian police stations because of the arrests of Hamas leaders. This does not sound like control to me. No regime, no matter how totalitarian, has perfect control. And what he had, it is certainly lost now...
That beeing said, I agree that more could have been done. I've never claimed that things where good. But I hold it that they are so much worse now. And israeli policy is very much to blame.
[quote]I think you are asking to remove all Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria and Gaza. But if you?re not, I?ll be happy to hear more of your thought on this. Perhaps a way to make them "legal"?<hr></blockquote>
No, Think all palestinian jews, and other jews immigrated in a "legal" maner have just as much right to stay as any other palestinian or legal immigrant. And as far as I know they have.
My impression is that many of the settlers would not be willing to stay if they where put under "palestinian rule". There is also the question the real ownership of the land. Are the settlements even legaly situated. Who owns the land? At least in some cases I bet the plaestinian farmers would like their land back. But this is really an interesting discussion. Best discussionpoint you have brought up so far.
Did you read this:
"Banging his fist on the table, Sharon said, "There will be no discussion on uprooting settlements until November 2003." Even after this date, the scheduled election date, he said, "I am not sure there will be a discussion on this."
Jerusalem Post
[quote]So far, the only documented occurrences of war crimes were committed by the Arabs.<hr></blockquote>
Heard about Deir Yassin? Lydda and Ramle? Doueimah? Quibya? Kafr Kassem? Do some reading, there are even zionist sources on this...
[quote]I believe Sharon has been way too soft on the media here. I believe they need to be systematically looked at. Press Licences need to be decided on a case by case basis. I would start with revoking all press coverage to foreigners. And work our way from there.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, I've seen the examples on how free the israeli press really is. Like Sharon slamming israeli TV for brodacsting the interview with the UN special envoy. He didn't even critisize the icursions, only the fact that Aid had been keept out for 11 days. And you call yourself a democracy? What a joke...
[quote]Here?s another example of the point above. Personally, I would not have gone in there with ground troops. I would have used artillery. And I would not have given any warning to the residents prior to the bombing. Israelis never get a warning prior to them being bombed. Let?s use a single standard for all and stop the duplicity. Of course if Israel did that, there immediately be a commission in the UN and an international tribunal to try Israelis for that action. Yet after 10 years of suicide bombings by Arabs there?s yet to be anyone brought to trial for war crimes.<hr></blockquote>
Using the same standard for terrorist and a regular army? Are you joking? And btw you can't prosecute a terrorist for war crimes. for terrorism yes, but not war crime. That would be the same as recognising terrorist as "legal" combatants, and you wouldn't do that, or what? The Israeli side has had its shares of terrorist as well, remember Baruk Goldstein and Yigal Amir? Get real.
[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
There is also the question the real ownership of the land
Ok. Let?s ask this question then. How did this land come into the possession of Arabs, and how did it come to the possession of Jews?
quote
Heard about Deir Yassin? Lydda and Ramle? Doueimah? Quibya? Kafr Kassem? Do some reading, there are even zionist sources on this...
It?s interesting how these surface almost 50 years later. When no one can really verify the claims of these rumors. Unlike the 500 dead rumor just circulated by Arabs and CNN?s Cristian Amanpour.
quote
And you call yourself a democracy? What a joke...
Good. You should be having a good laugh then. But what happens when you watch the Arab media? Do you have a good cry?
quote
And btw you can't prosecute a terrorist for war crimes. for terrorism yes, but not war crime. That would be the same as recognising terrorist as "legal" combatants.
Hmm?. So are you saying we shouldn?t have recognized Arafat and his terror organizations as legal agents of the Arab people after all?
But maybe are you saying that we shouldn?t put on trial any of these characters, for any crimes?
mika.
[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
[quote] Ok. Let?s ask this question then. How did this land come into the possession of Arabs, and how did it come to the possession of Jews? <hr></blockquote>
The land was in Arab, then it was occupied. The arab who lived there were ousted, and some settlements where set up illigaly, even buy Israeli law, others were subsidized heavily by the Israeli government. The settlements have been steadily increesed, even the ones isreal has internationally agreed to freeze. I believe only the settlements in Sinai, when it was given back to Egypt have ever been totally dismanteled as a part of a peace accord.
[quote] It?s interesting how these surface almost 50 years later. When no one can really verify the claims of these rumors. Unlike the 500 dead rumor just circulated by Arabs and CNN?s Cristian Amanpour. <hr></blockquote>
The <a href="http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/"; target="_blank">evidence</a> is hard. And we're talking about war crimes commited in the very beggining of the conflict here. From which everyting has escaleted ever since. My aim in going back this far was mainly to show how hard it can be to find out who threw the first stone... The important ting is getting the throwing to stop.
[quote] Good. You should be having a good laugh then. But what happens when you watch the Arab media? Do you have a good cry? <hr></blockquote>
Again, pointing fingers elsewhere. If Isreal has nothing to hide, then not admitting foregin journalist is just plain stupid. Why is it that B'Tselem states: "The Israeli media refrains from publishing the information it receives regarding human rights violations against innocent civilians. As a result, the Israeli public receives only the information provided by the IDF spokesperson, who disregards these violations."
[quote] Hmm?. So are you saying we shouldn?t have recognized Arafat and his terror organizations as a legal agents of the Arab people after all?
But maybe are you saying that we shouldn?t put on trial any of these characters, for any crimes? <hr></blockquote>
No, I'm saying terrorist should be tried as terrorist. And millitary should be expected to follow the Geneva convention. And if you start mixing the two, you are cutting of the branch on which your sitting. You don't see Spain demolishing cities in the Bask region do you?
The evidence is hard.
There is no evidence. You?re again speculating on rumors of events that happened 50+ years ago and are now impossible to verify. If the Arabs had any concerns, they should have addressed them at the time. To bring these charges now is ridiculous. And I?m not even going to indulge you on this any further.
quote
The land was in Arab, then it was occupied.
That?s why the land was called Judea. Because it was Arab land.
quote
If Isreal has nothing to hide, then not admitting foregin journalist is just plain stupid. Why is it that B'Tselem states: "The Israeli media refrains from publishing the information it receives regarding human rights violations against innocent civilians.
Information needs verification. And unlike CNN and other foreign media networks, which will do ANYTHING and spread any kind of sensational rumor to make a fast buck off this conflict, Israeli media, particularly publicly owned Israeli media should be held to a higher standard.
quote
No, I'm saying terrorist should be tried as terrorist. And millitary should be expected to follow the Geneva convention. And if you start mixing the two, you are cutting of the branch on which your sitting.
Seems like you?re trying to have it both ways again. (What a surprise
mika.
[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html</a>;
Should the United States give back California to Mexico? No. Israel shouldn't be forced to give back any land to the Palestinians. Frankly, the Palestinians should just shut up, stop whining, and take whatever they can get from Israel.
Oh, by the way, I love how our fearless leader decided to back pedal after initially supporting the Israelis. He forgot that our Saudi "friends" who supply us our damn oil don't like Israel. I bet he'll just use this as another excuse to drill in ANWR instead of mandating an increase in fuel efficiency across the board in all new cars produced. But I digress.