hehe... no sources as usual... At least you are stubborn...
You are, how should I put it..., putting most israelis in a very bad light... Saying on one hand that the palestinians are brainwashed, and then putting out all that garbage in the last post...
Are you just trying to provoke, or are you really this narrow minded?
btw. The Jews are the only people I know of who paid twice for the same land. Of-course, the absentee Arab landlords never cared much, since they intended to later overrun us anyway. Case in point. Arab-Israeli war of 1947.
There are no real sources ... You already proved that much. There are some anecdotal references, and if you want those I could provide them. But why bother?
Judea was there, 2000 of years ago, but so were the arabs, and in 1948 there where close to a million palestinians living in Palestine. But you don't belive that, do you Irving? Its all fiction?
And no arab ever invented anything? Is that right to, Irving?
quote: I think the US is getting a slightly better return on its investments with Israel ...
____________________________________
What return would that be?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL are you for real ?
Is there any other nation in the ME the US can relay on fully to cooperate with them when they need it to ?
Did Israel not stay put when Iraq used its scud missiles against it during the gulf war just to save the US's coalition despite this being an unheard of thing for a sovereign state to allow another state to attack it without responding to the attack.
You seem to have a really short memory span but do you remember who was the main sponsor of many arab states just 10 20 years ago ? it was the USSR ... that is how loyal these guys are !
And what about the simple fact that Israel is a democracy ? that obviously doesn't count for much in your eyes ... well it certainly does count in American minds. democracy makes Israel a far more stable and moderate place then all those Arab dictatorships.... and this also eliminates the chance that all this wonderful US high tech weaponry will fall into the wrong hands once the regime topples or changes its alliance at the whim of a moment... like Iraq, Egypt, Jordan Lebanon etc have all done so many times along the years... remember Iran and what a disaster that was for US interests ?
In addition Israel is a hot-bed of high-tech R&D ... did you know that Israel has developed the world's first operational anti-ballistic-missile system ? (its already operational in Israel defending it from surprise missile attacks from places like Iraq, it was developed solely in Israel using American funding) the Americans have access to all this technology and this enriches US security and helps defense related jobs in the US. Did you know that Motorola, Microshit , Intel all have huge R&D sites in Israel ?
Israel is a strategic balancing tool for the US to counter the overwhelming dominance of Arabs over oil reserves. The US can't really afford to let this relationship to falter since it will mean more power to Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Iran who will use this to destabilize the world by increasing oil prices. this is far bigger then the Israeli/Palestinian question...
In my opinion "wonderful US high tech weaponry" has already fallen into the wrong hands when a Blackhawk helicopter is used to demolish a refugee camp.
It does count that israel is a democracy, now it is time to use democratic means to end the conflict (withdrawal and negotiations)...
You are back to the same retoric as before. I don't have to be a supporter of the arab nations for critizing Israel.
Hopefully we can agree that freedom and equality are better values than defence related jobs, and control over oil resources?
You seem to have a really short memory span but do you remember who was the main sponsor of many arab states just 10 20 years ago ? it was the USSR
That?s a very good point!
Israel was the testing ground for American weaponry during the Cold War, and they also provided quite a bit of very important information on Soviet weaponry to the Americans. Often, the whole weapons system was provided intact for the Americans and NATO to study. (From the latest soviet tanks, to the latest Mig Jet fighters, to whole radar installations). And I?m not even talking about Israel?s espionage efforts. Did you know that the MOSSAD in some instances made available to the CIA speeches made by Soviet premiers, before those Soviet premiers had even a chance to read them in public!
<strong>In my opinion "wonderful US high tech weaponry" has already fallen into the wrong hands when a Blackhawk helicopter is used to demolish a refugee camp.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
New , Please grow up ... I wasn't arguing the merit of any of these points I was answering your question which was why is the US investment in Israel worth it for the US. I answered this point from the purely strategic analytic point of view not a moral one .. when pentagon analysts and state department officials sit down to discuss policy these are the points they care about not your sentimental ranting about Black Hawks (which is a transport chopper btw) killing refugee children. FFS the US supports far worse regimes then Israel's and I don't see you rail against that .... for US policy makers its about interests and long term stability not propaganda.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
It does count that israel is a democracy, now it is time to use democratic means to end the conflict (withdrawal and negotiations)...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completly but the order must be ceasefire and negotiations first and then withdrawal not the other way around or else we would be rewarding terror ! we cannot afford to do that !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
You are back to the same retoric as before. I don't have to be a supporter of the arab nations for critizing Israel.
Hopefully we can agree that freedom and equality are better values than defence related jobs, and control over oil resources?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am not back to any old retoric i agree with what you say re critisism and values...
I hope you do realize that by "Irving" I meant "calling someone Irving", which I find totally unacceptable. Your analogy stinks or is highly problematic at least. I don't mind a provoking statement from time to time to improve lame discussions, however, you made your point on page 14 and that's enough irvinging for the rest of this thread, no need to repeat it in every post.
the dude's entitled to his opinions....this is getting childish :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by 123:
<strong>
I hope you do realize that by "Irving" I meant "calling someone Irving", which I find totally unacceptable. Your analogy stinks or is highly problematic at least. I don't mind a provoking statement from time to time to improve lame discussions, however, you made your point on page 14 and that's enough irvinging for the rest of this thread, no need to repeat it in every post.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right. I forgot to add that he?s also a duplicitous hypocrite. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Comments
You are, how should I put it..., putting most israelis in a very bad light... Saying on one hand that the palestinians are brainwashed, and then putting out all that garbage in the last post...
Are you just trying to provoke, or are you really this narrow minded?
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>Why would you have to pay of land that is yours...?
Because we always get the short end of the stick. But I?m glad you agree. I say, take it back and don?t ask anyone for permissions.
mika.
hehe... no sources as usual...
There are no real sources ... You already proved that much. There are some anecdotal references, and if you want those I could provide them. But why bother?
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
boy, your one big joke...
<strong>There are no real sources to history, and then you claim to have an historic right to the land?
boy, your one big joke...</strong><hr></blockquote>
ahh ?!? What the hell are you talking about ?!?!
We were talking about the the Arab population, or lack there of, in the land of Israel ?
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Judea was there, 2000 of years ago, but so were the arabs, and in 1948 there where close to a million palestinians living in Palestine. But you don't belive that, do you Irving? Its all fiction?
And no arab ever invented anything? Is that right to, Irving?
Judea was there, 2000 of years ago, but so were the arabs
The Jews were in Judea, the Arabs in Arabia. Not too difficult to grasp, I don?t think. (Unless you?re brain dead, Irving)
quote
And no arab ever invented anything? Is that right to, Irving?
Oh, they invented plenty. We?ve already spent 150 posts discussing their inventions.
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>
____________________________________
quote: I think the US is getting a slightly better return on its investments with Israel ...
____________________________________
What return would that be?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL are you for real ?
Is there any other nation in the ME the US can relay on fully to cooperate with them when they need it to ?
Did Israel not stay put when Iraq used its scud missiles against it during the gulf war just to save the US's coalition despite this being an unheard of thing for a sovereign state to allow another state to attack it without responding to the attack.
You seem to have a really short memory span but do you remember who was the main sponsor of many arab states just 10 20 years ago ? it was the USSR ... that is how loyal these guys are !
And what about the simple fact that Israel is a democracy ? that obviously doesn't count for much in your eyes ... well it certainly does count in American minds. democracy makes Israel a far more stable and moderate place then all those Arab dictatorships.... and this also eliminates the chance that all this wonderful US high tech weaponry will fall into the wrong hands once the regime topples or changes its alliance at the whim of a moment... like Iraq, Egypt, Jordan Lebanon etc have all done so many times along the years... remember Iran and what a disaster that was for US interests ?
In addition Israel is a hot-bed of high-tech R&D ... did you know that Israel has developed the world's first operational anti-ballistic-missile system ? (its already operational in Israel defending it from surprise missile attacks from places like Iraq, it was developed solely in Israel using American funding) the Americans have access to all this technology and this enriches US security and helps defense related jobs in the US. Did you know that Motorola, Microshit , Intel all have huge R&D sites in Israel ?
Israel is a strategic balancing tool for the US to counter the overwhelming dominance of Arabs over oil reserves. The US can't really afford to let this relationship to falter since it will mean more power to Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Iran who will use this to destabilize the world by increasing oil prices. this is far bigger then the Israeli/Palestinian question...
It does count that israel is a democracy, now it is time to use democratic means to end the conflict (withdrawal and negotiations)...
You are back to the same retoric as before. I don't have to be a supporter of the arab nations for critizing Israel.
Hopefully we can agree that freedom and equality are better values than defence related jobs, and control over oil resources?
You seem to have a really short memory span but do you remember who was the main sponsor of many arab states just 10 20 years ago ? it was the USSR
That?s a very good point!
Israel was the testing ground for American weaponry during the Cold War, and they also provided quite a bit of very important information on Soviet weaponry to the Americans. Often, the whole weapons system was provided intact for the Americans and NATO to study. (From the latest soviet tanks, to the latest Mig Jet fighters, to whole radar installations). And I?m not even talking about Israel?s espionage efforts. Did you know that the MOSSAD in some instances made available to the CIA speeches made by Soviet premiers, before those Soviet premiers had even a chance to read them in public!
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
I don't have to be a supporter of the arab nations for critizing Israel.
ahh, but you are! aren't you, Irving! You've held your nose this far. Why stop now?
mika.
<strong>In my opinion "wonderful US high tech weaponry" has already fallen into the wrong hands when a Blackhawk helicopter is used to demolish a refugee camp.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
New , Please grow up ... I wasn't arguing the merit of any of these points I was answering your question which was why is the US investment in Israel worth it for the US. I answered this point from the purely strategic analytic point of view not a moral one .. when pentagon analysts and state department officials sit down to discuss policy these are the points they care about not your sentimental ranting about Black Hawks (which is a transport chopper btw) killing refugee children. FFS the US supports far worse regimes then Israel's and I don't see you rail against that .... for US policy makers its about interests and long term stability not propaganda.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
It does count that israel is a democracy, now it is time to use democratic means to end the conflict (withdrawal and negotiations)...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completly but the order must be ceasefire and negotiations first and then withdrawal not the other way around or else we would be rewarding terror ! we cannot afford to do that !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
You are back to the same retoric as before. I don't have to be a supporter of the arab nations for critizing Israel.
Hopefully we can agree that freedom and equality are better values than defence related jobs, and control over oil resources?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am not back to any old retoric
<strong>quote:
ahh, but you are! aren't you, Irving!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Irving" is the last refuge of the incompetent.
<strong>
"Irving" is the last refuge of the incompetent.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Although, I really think he's brain dead.
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Although, I really think he's brain dead.
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Guys I really dont see what point this serves....
the dude's entitled to his opinions....this is getting childish :cool:
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Although, I really think he's brain dead.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hope you do realize that by "Irving" I meant "calling someone Irving", which I find totally unacceptable. Your analogy stinks or is highly problematic at least. I don't mind a provoking statement from time to time to improve lame discussions, however, you made your point on page 14 and that's enough irvinging for the rest of this thread, no need to repeat it in every post.
<strong>
Guys I really dont see what point this serves....
the dude's entitled to his opinions....this is getting childish :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by 123:
<strong>
I hope you do realize that by "Irving" I meant "calling someone Irving", which I find totally unacceptable. Your analogy stinks or is highly problematic at least. I don't mind a provoking statement from time to time to improve lame discussions, however, you made your point on page 14 and that's enough irvinging for the rest of this thread, no need to repeat it in every post.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right. I forgot to add that he?s also a duplicitous hypocrite. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
mika.
[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>