<strong>Israel attempts to get help developing a nuclear weapon arsenal by disguising it as an attempt to get nuclear energy power. France catches on and shuts the process down. Good for France, although she was massively stupid for not seeing through it in the first place.
---
What the hell is not to understand with that quote?
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, 1936
How in God's name is this any different from a Muslim saying that the area should be theirs?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) agree
2) Thanks for that Quote : it shows that Ben Gourion was for expansion.
<strong>Israel attempts to get help developing a nuclear weapon arsenal by disguising it as an attempt to get nuclear energy power. France catches on and shuts the process down. Good for France, although she was massively stupid for not seeing through it in the first place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That?s the positive spin. The cynical spin (and the one I adhere to) is that France never intended to follow through on her commitments in the first place.
France was rather cynically trying to make Israel pursue expensive and useless expenditures in the hope that it will eventually bankrupt the country and destroy the Zionist project. Whether it be the purchase of worthless weaponry, or the pursuit of expensive and unattainable military goals, or the purchase of a half built nuclear plant. Kinda what Reagan did with the Soviets.
That?s the positive spin. The cynical spin (and the one I adhere to) is that France never intended to follow through on her commitments in the first place.
France was rather cynically trying to make Israel pursue expensive and useless expenditures in the hope that it will eventually bankrupt the country and destroy the Zionist project. Whether it be the purchase of worthless weaponry, or the pursuit of expensive and unattainable military goals, or the purchase of a half built nuclear plant. Kinda what Reagan did with the Soviets.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong : France stop his help , because France changed of governement and institutions in 1958. I am sorry for you, but if the governement has not change, you'll have your nuclear plant, and you will have sooner your atomic bomb. But i think that De Gaulle was wise to stop this. When you are cynical you do not widely open your door to the general staffs of your army and to your services. At this time, i think that Israelians have learned a lot of thing about defense. Now israelians have nothing to learn from France and perhaps have many things to teach us in that aera.
And France have no interest in the destrution of Israel : the interest of France is peace in the middle east. France have two important communities the jews one and the muslims one : we do not want to have a civil war, so we try to stay neutral.
Israel has one big allie : USA, and there is many neutral states : europe, asia and ennemies : arab world.
I understand that you defend your countrie, but saying that all countrie who are not your allies are pigs will just let the public opinion to turn from neutral to adverse.
Saying " if you are not with me you are agaisnt me led to isolation"
And remember that all allies see their own interest at first, if the USA thinks that Israel leds them into trouble they will let you stay alone.For the moment it's not the case and you have still a big support in the US public opinion, but the relations between the governements have slighty deteriorated since Sharon is in charge.
Powerdoc, I?ve been reading your posts on other threads, and you seem like a decent and fair fellow. I have nothing against you personally. I understand you are trying to defend France against what you feel is unfair criticism by me.
But you must understand where I?m coming from. I didn?t form my opinion in a vacuum. I lived in Europe (Lithuania), I lived in North America (Canada), and Israel. I know about anti-Semitism. I know more about it than you think, mainly because I do not look Jewish. I have Scandinavian features, (my Lithuanian heritage) and always passed as a non-Jew. I know first hand what goes on. Anders likes to claim how Danes are so tolerant of Jews, and touts all kind of stupid statistic parameters to try to prove his point, but it?s all garbage.
I also know that anti-Semitism is not something that just goes away. It might go underground for a little while, but it never goes away. The French have a long history of anti-Semitism. That old conservative catholic anti-Semitism, epitomized in the Vichy regime, is still there alive and kicking. I got a taste of it during my trips to Quebec. You might not see it in the cities as much, but go to the countryside, and it won?t be long before you come across it.
Now, you must understand that the damage is done. And a million sorrys, and noble explanations are not going to undue the damage. You say that all allies see their own interest first. Maybe. But when Israel needed the United States, the United States was there. When Israel needed France, France was not. Jews have a long memory. And we will remember who was by our side and who wasn?t. America knows that more than any other nation she can count on Israel to be there for her.
Now, it?s true that there was close military cooperation between our two countries, and Israel learned the French way of doing things. But Israel also had quite a long experience with the British military before that.
Anyway, what I see today in Europe is a thin disguise of what was always there. Nothing much has changed. I will always look at you with tinted eyes, no matter how well intentioned you claim to be. It?s a psychological barrier that will never be overcome. That?s why I live Israel.
What is your idea of a workable peace plan? Do you think that Israel should retain all of the West Bank? Or East Jerusalem? The Golan? Etc. Should any of the settlements be dismantled? Just curious.
Sorry if I missed an earlier post of yours with the answers, but this thread is growing a little unwieldy.
[quote]France was rather cynically trying to make Israel pursue expensive and useless expenditures in the hope that it will eventually bankrupt the country and destroy the Zionist project.<hr></blockquote>
[quote] I will always look at you with tinted eyes, no matter how well intentioned you claim to be. It?s a psychological barrier that will never be overcome. That?s why I live in Israel.
<hr></blockquote>
Righty ho. So we're arguing from a position that admits that, one day, racism will be overcome and that the people of Israel and their neighbours, Palestinian Muslims and Christians, will live side by side in comradely, respectful and tolerant peace.
You don't really strike me as that kind of a chap, Mika. Not really.
If there's a failure of imagination here, it's yours. Palestine is not going away. Really, it's not. Honest. So there has to be a solution, and if you have a soul you'd agree it's going to have something to do with forgiveness and respect, returning to pre-1967 borders, that sort of thing.
And you have no right, none at all, to complain of anti-semitism, also known as 'racism', when you try and convince us that Arabic contributions to science, mathematics and medicine (I refer you to optics, decimals and modern physiology) are impossible since the Arabs are... er... 'barbarians'. This is called 'racism'. Accurately, it's called 'anti-semitism', because Arabs are - holy sh*t! - SEMITIC TOO!!!
This sort of obviates your claim to the moral high ground. Sorry about that. But you can't have it both ways, and especially not if you're going to ignore centuries of history because it makes it easy for you to hate, and to kill, your neighbours. Who are, incidentally, your cousins.
And what you've got to say about the French goes way beyond the pale. (Let's hope they don't invite the fascist to be president though.)
This goes beyond Israel and the local Arab population. It?s a clash of civilizations and basic values. And Israel needs to wage constant war until the Arab/Muslim civilization and its warped values disintegrates into the dustbin of history.
Just read ?Hassan? sig: ?Nothing is real. Everything is permitted.? Maybe it will give you sense of the kind of Jackals Israel is dealing with. The day I/they will lower my guard is the day I/they will be dead.
Like I said, I say 'peace'. I'd prefer that than to see the end of Judaism, Jews and Israel and all the splendid things the Jewish people have contributed to the species.
That makes me a proper jackal, I guess.
And the sig, Mika, comes from an 11th Century Farsi text about having the imagination to solve the insoluble.
Although I guess pitiless racism like yours might just prove the undoing of it.
<strong>Anders likes to claim how Danes are so tolerant of Jews, and touts all kind of stupid statistic parameters to try to prove his point, but it?s all garbage.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Danes ARE tolerant towards jews in general. The right wing in Danish politics actually won the last election based on attacks against muslims. With the exception of <100 Neo-Nazi punks who likes to Heil behind high fences Jews noone have anything against jews.
What you don´t understand is that the opposition against Sharon here is also the same people that demonstrate against NeoNazis every time they show their ugly heads. And the only time I have heard mention of Danish jews in regards to the current conflict is when they demonstrate against Sharon and are helping collecting money for a hospital in Jenin. You ar actually the one person that have the hardest time distinguising between nations and people.
You have admitted that you know nothing about Denmark so stick to that or read up. Don´t come here with your "oh yeah you might live in the country and have statistics but I
know that everybody is against Jews" when you in fact know nothing.
Okiedokie, Mika, that's about as upfront as it gets. Some clarity.
So it's the Muslims you have a problem with, not the Palestinans per se. So, er, what do you propose to do with the Palestinian Christians, then? Can they still live in Israel? Because, strictly speaking, they're still sort of Arabic.
And you know what, I think I'll ignore the wife and sisters thing. You naughty, naughty chap!
So it's OK for us to come over and make a new Capital in Mecca? Gee, maybe you're not such a bad guy after all.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is going way out of hand here .... KILLA take a CHILL PILL will ya ?!
Stop talking nonsense and stop attacking everything you see ....
Are you really Israeli ? cos if you are you must realize how unrealistic and ridiculous your opinions are and how remote they are from the general Israeli consensus ....
I understand how you feel with all the crap and lies that's being peddled around against Israel and Jews I feel it too but what you do is way overboard ....
Chill, think, reason, and moderate yourself and then the useful things you have to say will make far more sense...
Answer ze qvestion! You vill answer ze qvestion! What about the Palestinian Christians!
(Don't worry Rash, I ain't riled. I'm zealot-proof.)
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wasn?t sure it was the final draft of your post?
Anyway, the whole premise of your question is rather insulting. I don?t have a problem with even Muslims living in Israel as long as they believe in western values, and don?t try to claim my country, and my capital as theirs.
Comments
<strong>Israel attempts to get help developing a nuclear weapon arsenal by disguising it as an attempt to get nuclear energy power. France catches on and shuts the process down. Good for France, although she was massively stupid for not seeing through it in the first place.
---
What the hell is not to understand with that quote?
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, 1936
How in God's name is this any different from a Muslim saying that the area should be theirs?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) agree
2) Thanks for that Quote : it shows that Ben Gourion was for expansion.
<strong>
1) agree
2) Thanks for that Quote : it shows that Ben Gourion was for expansion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
He was not. Since you like to read biographies, read his.
mika.
<strong>Israel attempts to get help developing a nuclear weapon arsenal by disguising it as an attempt to get nuclear energy power. France catches on and shuts the process down. Good for France, although she was massively stupid for not seeing through it in the first place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That?s the positive spin. The cynical spin (and the one I adhere to) is that France never intended to follow through on her commitments in the first place.
France was rather cynically trying to make Israel pursue expensive and useless expenditures in the hope that it will eventually bankrupt the country and destroy the Zionist project. Whether it be the purchase of worthless weaponry, or the pursuit of expensive and unattainable military goals, or the purchase of a half built nuclear plant. Kinda what Reagan did with the Soviets.
mika.
<strong>
That?s the positive spin. The cynical spin (and the one I adhere to) is that France never intended to follow through on her commitments in the first place.
France was rather cynically trying to make Israel pursue expensive and useless expenditures in the hope that it will eventually bankrupt the country and destroy the Zionist project. Whether it be the purchase of worthless weaponry, or the pursuit of expensive and unattainable military goals, or the purchase of a half built nuclear plant. Kinda what Reagan did with the Soviets.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong : France stop his help , because France changed of governement and institutions in 1958. I am sorry for you, but if the governement has not change, you'll have your nuclear plant, and you will have sooner your atomic bomb. But i think that De Gaulle was wise to stop this. When you are cynical you do not widely open your door to the general staffs of your army and to your services. At this time, i think that Israelians have learned a lot of thing about defense. Now israelians have nothing to learn from France and perhaps have many things to teach us in that aera.
And France have no interest in the destrution of Israel : the interest of France is peace in the middle east. France have two important communities the jews one and the muslims one : we do not want to have a civil war, so we try to stay neutral.
Israel has one big allie : USA, and there is many neutral states : europe, asia and ennemies : arab world.
I understand that you defend your countrie, but saying that all countrie who are not your allies are pigs will just let the public opinion to turn from neutral to adverse.
Saying " if you are not with me you are agaisnt me led to isolation"
And remember that all allies see their own interest at first, if the USA thinks that Israel leds them into trouble they will let you stay alone.For the moment it's not the case and you have still a big support in the US public opinion, but the relations between the governements have slighty deteriorated since Sharon is in charge.
But you must understand where I?m coming from. I didn?t form my opinion in a vacuum. I lived in Europe (Lithuania), I lived in North America (Canada), and Israel. I know about anti-Semitism. I know more about it than you think, mainly because I do not look Jewish. I have Scandinavian features, (my Lithuanian heritage) and always passed as a non-Jew. I know first hand what goes on. Anders likes to claim how Danes are so tolerant of Jews, and touts all kind of stupid statistic parameters to try to prove his point, but it?s all garbage.
I also know that anti-Semitism is not something that just goes away. It might go underground for a little while, but it never goes away. The French have a long history of anti-Semitism. That old conservative catholic anti-Semitism, epitomized in the Vichy regime, is still there alive and kicking. I got a taste of it during my trips to Quebec. You might not see it in the cities as much, but go to the countryside, and it won?t be long before you come across it.
Now, you must understand that the damage is done. And a million sorrys, and noble explanations are not going to undue the damage. You say that all allies see their own interest first. Maybe. But when Israel needed the United States, the United States was there. When Israel needed France, France was not. Jews have a long memory. And we will remember who was by our side and who wasn?t. America knows that more than any other nation she can count on Israel to be there for her.
Now, it?s true that there was close military cooperation between our two countries, and Israel learned the French way of doing things. But Israel also had quite a long experience with the British military before that.
Anyway, what I see today in Europe is a thin disguise of what was always there. Nothing much has changed. I will always look at you with tinted eyes, no matter how well intentioned you claim to be. It?s a psychological barrier that will never be overcome. That?s why I live Israel.
mika.
What is your idea of a workable peace plan? Do you think that Israel should retain all of the West Bank? Or East Jerusalem? The Golan? Etc. Should any of the settlements be dismantled? Just curious.
Sorry if I missed an earlier post of yours with the answers, but this thread is growing a little unwieldy.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
RUN, CHICKEN LITTLE, RUN! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!
Poor poor Israel, everyone in the world wants them all dead.
<hr></blockquote>
Righty ho. So we're arguing from a position that admits that, one day, racism will be overcome and that the people of Israel and their neighbours, Palestinian Muslims and Christians, will live side by side in comradely, respectful and tolerant peace.
You don't really strike me as that kind of a chap, Mika. Not really.
If there's a failure of imagination here, it's yours. Palestine is not going away. Really, it's not. Honest. So there has to be a solution, and if you have a soul you'd agree it's going to have something to do with forgiveness and respect, returning to pre-1967 borders, that sort of thing.
And you have no right, none at all, to complain of anti-semitism, also known as 'racism', when you try and convince us that Arabic contributions to science, mathematics and medicine (I refer you to optics, decimals and modern physiology) are impossible since the Arabs are... er... 'barbarians'. This is called 'racism'. Accurately, it's called 'anti-semitism', because Arabs are - holy sh*t! - SEMITIC TOO!!!
This sort of obviates your claim to the moral high ground. Sorry about that. But you can't have it both ways, and especially not if you're going to ignore centuries of history because it makes it easy for you to hate, and to kill, your neighbours. Who are, incidentally, your cousins.
And what you've got to say about the French goes way beyond the pale. (Let's hope they don't invite the fascist to be president though.)
And I say peace; and I mean it.
Just read ?Hassan? sig: ?Nothing is real. Everything is permitted.? Maybe it will give you sense of the kind of Jackals Israel is dealing with. The day I/they will lower my guard is the day I/they will be dead.
mika.
How do you expect Israel to treat you differently?
mika.
That makes me a proper jackal, I guess.
And the sig, Mika, comes from an 11th Century Farsi text about having the imagination to solve the insoluble.
Although I guess pitiless racism like yours might just prove the undoing of it.
<strong>Anders likes to claim how Danes are so tolerant of Jews, and touts all kind of stupid statistic parameters to try to prove his point, but it?s all garbage.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Danes ARE tolerant towards jews in general. The right wing in Danish politics actually won the last election based on attacks against muslims. With the exception of <100 Neo-Nazi punks who likes to Heil behind high fences Jews noone have anything against jews.
What you don´t understand is that the opposition against Sharon here is also the same people that demonstrate against NeoNazis every time they show their ugly heads. And the only time I have heard mention of Danish jews in regards to the current conflict is when they demonstrate against Sharon and are helping collecting money for a hospital in Jenin. You ar actually the one person that have the hardest time distinguising between nations and people.
You have admitted that you know nothing about Denmark so stick to that or read up. Don´t come here with your "oh yeah you might live in the country and have statistics but I
know that everybody is against Jews" when you in fact know nothing.
So it's the Muslims you have a problem with, not the Palestinans per se. So, er, what do you propose to do with the Palestinian Christians, then? Can they still live in Israel? Because, strictly speaking, they're still sort of Arabic.
And you know what, I think I'll ignore the wife and sisters thing. You naughty, naughty chap!
<strong> And you know what, I think I'll ignore the wife and sisters thing. You naughty, naughty chap!</strong><hr></blockquote>
So it's OK for us to come over and make a new Capital in Mecca? Gee, maybe you're not such a bad guy after all.
mika.
<strong>
So it's OK for us to come over and make a new Capital in Mecca? Gee, maybe you're not such a bad guy after all.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is going way out of hand here .... KILLA take a CHILL PILL will ya ?!
Stop talking nonsense and stop attacking everything you see ....
Are you really Israeli ? cos if you are you must realize how unrealistic and ridiculous your opinions are and how remote they are from the general Israeli consensus ....
I understand how you feel with all the crap and lies that's being peddled around against Israel and Jews I feel it too but what you do is way overboard ....
Chill, think, reason, and moderate yourself and then the useful things you have to say will make far more sense...
Tragia benadam !
mika.
Answer ze qvestion! You vill answer ze qvestion! What about the Palestinian Christians!
(Don't worry Rash, I ain't riled. I'm zealot-proof.)
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>Hey cuz!
Answer ze qvestion! You vill answer ze qvestion! What about the Palestinian Christians!
(Don't worry Rash, I ain't riled. I'm zealot-proof.)
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wasn?t sure it was the final draft of your post?
Anyway, the whole premise of your question is rather insulting. I don?t have a problem with even Muslims living in Israel as long as they believe in western values, and don?t try to claim my country, and my capital as theirs.
mika.
mika.