The first conclusion that the Israeli political and security establishment should learn and internalize after 18 months of Palestinian Intifada, concerns the intensity of Palestinian blind terrorism and guerilla warfare against the State of Israel and the entire Israeli presence between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. These have reached dimensions that are both painful and impressive from the standpoint of the use of force. This is relevant not only for the Jewish public in Eretz-Israel and the world, but for most international actors, large and small, whatever their direct stake in the outcome.
Thus the upgrading of Palestinian warfare over the past year and a half arouses concern. It obliged the Israeli government in April 2002 to initiate a large-scale military offensive against Palestinian terrorist concentrations in all the Arab cities of the West Bank (except Jericho, Hebron and East Jerusalem) and surrounding Arab villages. This counterattack clearly reflected the Israel Defense Forces' force superiority in direct encounters with Palestinian terrorist bases. On the other hand, international pressures exercised by the United States, Europe and the United Nations forced Israel to withdraw the better part of its forces from most of the territories they occupied--a withdrawal that revealed, and apparently will continue to reveal, unnecessary acts of Israeli cruelty.
In the absence of a fair political solution for the realization of the Palestinian people's legitimate right to self determination--independence alongside Israel, not instead of Israel--brutal Palestinian terrorism will continue. In the not too distant future it will provoke new temporary IDF conquests, which in turn will generate intensified international pressures on Israel, followed by a renewed and temporary IDF withdrawal, and so on and on in a routine of bloodshed, until the only possible and fair political solution is realized: the establishment of an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, whose government operates in East Jerusalem. Such a solution will inevitably require the removal of a number of Israeli settlements from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It is apparent that without energetic pressure and intervention by the world's powers, led by the US, Israelis and Palestinians will not succeed on their own in compromising on a permanent peace agreement.
Meanwhile it behooves us to focus on two negative phenomena that are increasingly taking root in the Israeli reality. First, Israeli security circles are becoming captivated by the ritual of fences. This approach is based on a vain trust that failed as far back as 1938, when the British built the "northern fence" along the border with Lebanon. It makes sense to put up political fences to separate nations and states, but only after they have reached clear political understandings, and if possible peace agreements. A strategic fence without a political agreement is a pointless waste. Unfortunately, for some people in Israel the notion of a fence is replacing political peace arrangements.
Secondly, there is slowly developing a dangerous dynamic among Israel's Arab citizens. The more extreme the Palestinian struggle against Israel in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the stronger the negative suffusion of Palestinian hatred for Israel into the hearts of Israeli Arabs. This is an unnecessary additional injection of venom into Israel's future. It must not be ignored, lest this important Arab public, which has been slowly coming to terms with its fate of living together with us in a modern democratic country, now ally itself with our enemies.
In conclusion, note the interesting statement by General Peterson, from a visiting delegation of pro-Israel retired American generals (Yediot Aharonot, April 26, 2002, Saturday Supplement, p. 11): "Al Qaida exists and will continue to exist as long as there is a situation where people live without hope. This is the infrastructure where al-Qaida soldiers will be found." In my assessment, this perceptive analysis by an American general is doubly applicable to the Palestinian people.-Published 29/4/02(c)bitterlemons.org
Colonel (res.) Dr. Meir Pa'il is a military historian. He was a member of the 8th and 9th Knessets (1974-1981) on behalf of the Moked and Shelli peace parties.
New, I must say I'm really disappointed by your response ... you answered none of my points, you offered no new outlook on things with a positive suggestion for solutions and you keep ignoring the facts ... I thought you were a reasonable man who can talk about the issues in a constructive manner but all you seem to do is chant that old 'oppression and occupation' rhetoric ...... grow up, you sound like some PA spoksman
If you are interested in a real debate then please answer these points which are THE relevant issues to solve if you want a real solution instead of a constant blame game.
1. Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafat's perceived motives with the lives of its people ?
2. Is Israel responsible for the failure of the PA to provide in real tangible benefit to the Palestinians during the Oslo years ?
3. If its peace and an acceptance of a two state solution that the Palestinians want why do they allow those murderers to operate in their cities and refugee camps ? ( these organisations BTW believe in the complete destruction of Israel).
4. We have just agreed on a pretty comprehensive solution and that very solution has been offered to the PA in Camp David and then in Taba why start the Intefada .. what did they gain by it ? why do you insist going back to the rhetoric of 'Israel wants to maintain the occupation and all that bull ?
5. You say Israel should not retaliate but instead talk to moderate Palestinians, Israel would love to talk to Abu Allah, Muhammad Dahlan, Seri Nuseybah etc..... but they don't dare, Arafat will fry their hide if they do ! what do you suggest ?
6. How can you ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong> In my mind, what we saw yesterday in Tel Aviv was the result... What has been tried and failed is getting Israel to stop expanding the settlements. They almost doubled in the years after Oslo. This is also one of the direct causes of what we see now. And Sharon was right in the drivers seat most of the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a pitiful answer and you tried to avoid answering the original question. Hamas and Jihad don't care about the settlements they want the whole of Israel ! when you say the settlements have doubled in the Oslo years you refer to many places on the border and Jerusalem which have simply expanded due to the growth of the population and absorption of new immigrants from Russia and Ethiopia ... there have not been that many new ones created inside the OT since Oslo and these WILL be removed in a political settlement ! besides justifying the murder of innocents by this is the most ridiculous thing you can do ! also what you say about Sharon being in the drivers seat all the time is pure lie ! Sharon has not been in government since Oslo was signed for the whole of the 90's apart from the years during the Netanyahu government from 96 to 99 where he was not really in charge of anything to do with the settlements ... I expected more from you then this ! and to add to all this you haven't answered my question !
[quote] I thought you were a reasonable man who can talk about the issues in a constructive manner but all you seem to do is chant that old 'oppression and occupation' rhetoric . <hr></blockquote>
Sorry to disapoint you.
It seems to me that our "feelings" about this conflict tend to draw our attention away from the real points of this debate.
To you, the main point here is the protection of the israeli people and their right to security. And to me, its about the palestinian peoples right to freedom and selfdetermination. You have no idea how many times I have seen good discussions (like this on) deteriorate into name calling. I guess it has to do with who we see as the "treathened party" here.
So I'll try to adress your points without letting too much feeling get involved.
[quote] 1. Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafat's perceived motives with the lives of its people ? <hr></blockquote>
Call it gamble if you will. Its easier for me to see Araftas motives clear, than Sharons. What is his motives really? I fear he'll never accept a Palestinian state.
I really don't think "gamble" is a good term on this. You question implies that Arafat has a hidden agenda of more than just establishing a palestinian state. maybe he also wants to take as many israeli lives as possible? I don't believe this. So to me "gambling" on negotiation with Arafat is the only alternative to "gambling" on confrontation with the same Arafat, and the rest of the palestinians. And I'd choose the former any day. If you see other alternatives, please enlighten me. But I'm afraid there arn't any. We're all stuck with Arafat for a while. Only the palestinian people can choose another leader. The recent actions have only made support for him stronger, and the more moderate alternatives weaker. The only real alternatives now are the the Hamas. And that would be disaster. In a more stable climate, elections could be held, and younger poeple brought forward. But Israel is the main "destabelising" force at the moment.
So I guess the answer is "yes", you have no choice. But there are ways to make the "gamble" easier.
[quote] 2. Is Israel responsible for the failure of the PA to provide in real tangible benefit to the Palestinians during the Oslo years ? <hr></blockquote>
No, the PA have done a lot of failing themselves. However, Israel also failed miserably on three decisive points. They did not withdraw their millitary at the pace they promissed. They did not lift the restrictions on the borders between the OT and Israel as much as they should. Leaving the Palestinian economy with no real opportunity to blossom. And, most importantly, not a single day since Oslo in 1993 went by without the expansion of the illigal settlements. If peace was to be messured by the amount of your land given back or taken away from you. The last ten years have been the worst since 67...
[quote] 3. If its peace and an acceptance of a two state solution that the Palestinians want why do they allow those murderers to operate in their cities and refugee camps ? ( these organisations BTW believe in the complete destruction of Israel). <hr></blockquote>
I agree with your thinking here. But again you imply that it would have been possible to root these forces out. I suspect that it is not this simple. The powerstruggle and corruption in the PA, combined with the amount of influence organisations like Hamas have (have you seen their social institutions?), would make this very difficult. The PA suffer from structures of power common in arabian countries. No centralised police autority and no centralised social program. You see some of the same tendecies as in Afghanistan. The sending of former CIA head Tennet to look at the structures and posible reforme of the PA secrity forces seems very wise, but does he have any autority left after the israeli actions?
[quote] 4. We have just agreed on a pretty comprehensive solution and that very solution has been offered to the PA in Camp David and then in Taba why start the Intefada .. what did they gain by it ? why do you insist going back to the rhetoric of 'Israel wants to maintain the occupation and all that bull ? <hr></blockquote>
I don't see the Taba offer as anything close to what we here have agreed upon.
Instead of anwering this further, i'd like to post a copy of Ghassan Khatib (the director of the Jerusalem Media and Communication Centre) analysis on this. It's a bit long but it anwers both your points on Taba and palestinian gains better than I ever could. (As I am not a palestinian).
Significant gains at great cost
by Ghassan Khatib
Before one engages the question of what Palestinians have gained and lost over the last 18 months of confrontation, it is important to note two things. First, it makes more sense to ask that question to the party responsible for the transformation of relations. Israel, by creating a political vacuum in which Palestinians were asked to take-or-leave the Camp David proposals, stirring up hostility by sending right-wing extremist leader Ariel Sharon to visit Jerusalem's holiest Muslim shrine and then killing non-violent Palestinian demonstrators at a rate of ten a day in the start of the Intifada, bears the bulk of the responsibility for the situation we are in right now. As such, it would be interesting to know what Israel believes it has gained, other than bloodshed on both sides.
It is also an integral part of any discussion of gains and losses to note that we are now in the dire situation of a zero sum game: any defeat on one side is considered a success by the other.
Palestinians believe that their most important accomplishment over the last 18 months of confrontation has been to focus world attention once again on the Israeli occupation. For years, this fundamental aspect of the conflict was absent from discussions on the Middle East, despite the fact that even in its latest stages, the peace process allowed Israel direct military occupation on 82 percent of the Palestinian territories. Israel began to feel resentful of demands that it continue the agreed-upon gradual redeployment of its army from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Alongside that obstinacy, Israel did not allow one day of peace negotiations go by without further expanding its illegal Jewish settlements on confiscated Palestinian lands.
Perhaps then, the first gain of the Palestinians--reminding the world that they remain occupied--is tied to the second gain. Over the years of peaceful talks, Israelis increasingly seemed to believe that Palestinians had no other choice but to submit to Israeli will, hence their gradual process of slowing and stopping altogether Israeli redeployments from Palestinian land and the implementation of other components of signed agreements. Palestinians, too, started to feel that they were hostage to Israeli dictates and were simply waiting for Israel to give what it was willing to give.
While Palestinians prefer using peaceful means to achieve their rights, these confrontations have shown all concerned that Palestinians have other means of leverage. There is no doubt that when the Palestinian Authority dropped all other paths save that of peace negotiations, its bargaining position was weakened. Israel stopped respecting its agreements because it had no reason to do so. Now, it is equally clear that Palestinians do maintain the option of violent resistance, an option that has strengthened the Palestinian bargaining position for the future.
The other important Palestinian gain has been to put an end to Israel's ability to have its cake and eat it, too. The Oslo agreement stipulated that Israel should finish redeploying its forces out of all of the occupied territories, excluding Jerusalem and the settlements, which were to be negotiated in final talks. In the five years in which Israel redeployed from only 18 percent of the land, it was able to benefit greatly from its role as a peace partner. Lucrative windows of opportunity were opened for Israel, which gained significant new economic markets and benefited from economic enterprises, not only as a result of the opening of Arab markets, but also through the international perception that Israel was gradually becoming part of an integrated and peaceful Middle East.
The last 18 months of confrontations have exposed Israel's true nature as an aggressive occupier to the outside world. If this really is a zero-sum game, then it is to Palestinians' benefit that Israel's image has been damaged. It was former presidential advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski who said recently that it was disappointing to the friends of Israel, who expect it to be the shining light of democracy in the Middle East, that the majority of the world considers Israel to be a repressive state.
It must be said that all of these Palestinian gains have come at an extremely high cost. Israel has now regained some security control over the 18 percent of the occupied territories that it had previously given up. In addition, the significant nation-building and state-building accomplished by Palestinians with the generous help of the international donor community has been largely destroyed, especially in the last few months of indiscriminate Israeli bombardment and the recent attacks aimed directly at destroying those achievements. Finally, the prolonged Israeli policy of restricting Palestinian movement over the entire 18 months of confrontations, a policy intended to cause social and political disintegration, is starting to have its effect.
------
This is the palestinian view (or ONE palestinians view).
My stance is that if Isreal really wanted to lift the occupation, they could have easily done so long ago (before the uprising). But does Israel really want to get out? I hear you say they do , but what I see tells me the opposite.
[quote] 5. You say Israel should not retaliate but instead talk to moderate Palestinians, Israel would love to talk to Abu Allah, Muhammad Dahlan, Seri Nuseybah etc..... but they don't dare, Arafat will fry their hide if they do ! what do you suggest ?<hr></blockquote>
Again I really don't get your question. Many parallell processes on many levels where started as a result of Oslo. Many initiatives where taken. I don't see Arafat having any problem with these. They have not been forbidden while he has been in power.
If you think I suggest that the GOI should negotiate with others than the PA, you misunderstood me. He is still the elected leader.
What I see is a palestinian people who no longer listen to their intellectual leaders. Much because their talk has gotten them nowhere, and they are still beeing punished collectively as a people by Israel. Right now, I bet these guys are more populare with europeans and israelis than with palestinians.
[quote] 6. How can you ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results ! <hr></blockquote>
Yes, total curfew and complete siege does work great. Much like putting a plastic bag over a bee hive would work great for containing the bees, -a limited amount of time. But what happens next? Rishon Letzion happens next. And there will be more attacks. Moving against Gaza like Israel did against the West Bank, could prove disaterous. Gaza is the most densly populated area on earth. 70 % of the population are refugees or have refugee origin. And the Refugee camps are 4 to 5 times bigger than Jenin.
[quote] when you say the settlements have doubled in the Oslo years you refer to many places on the border and Jerusalem which have simply expanded due to the growth of the population and absorption of new immigrants from Russia and Ethiopia ...<hr></blockquote>
And I sound like a PA spokesman?!?
Get real. Let me dig up some fact for you on the settlement expansion. btw you still haven't
commented on the Sharon "run and grab every hill" statement.
Lets see:
[quote] there have not been that many new ones created inside the OT since Oslo and these WILL be removed in a political settlement !<hr></blockquote>
If they will be removed, why the expansion?
What other way can you interpret this than an attemnet to grab as much land possible?
[quote] besides justifying the murder of innocents by this is the most ridiculous thing you can do ! also what you say about Sharon being in the drivers seat all the time is pure lie ! Sharon has not been in government since Oslo was signed for the whole of the 90's apart from the years during the Netanyahu government from 96 to 99 where he was not really in charge of anything to do with the settlements ...
<hr></blockquote>
A pure lie?
Sharon was very active in forming the Likud settlement policy ever since 77 and up to 92.
In this peroid settlements icreased by 2000% (yes two thousand!)
Sharon was in 90-92 Minister of Construction and Housing.
from 96 - 98 he was Minister of National Infrastructure again in charge of settlement construction. In this peroid 30 new settlements where established, and the numbers of settlers grew from 109 000 to 200 000 in 99 excluding settlement in the greater Jerusalem metropolitan area.
"In September 1977 Begin's minister of agriculture, Ariel Sharon, unveiled "A vision of Israel at Century's End," calling for the settlement of 2 million Jews in the occupied territories. The Likud plan proposed settling Jews in areas of Arab habitation and for numerous settlement points as well as large urban concentrations in three principle areas:
-- a north-south axis running from the Golan through the Jordan Valley and down the east coast of Sinai; [I ](my note: what a strange coincidence that this are is to be the last to be withdrawn from by the israeli millitary, Did Barak know that this was gonna be a hard nut to crack with the Likud and the far right? or did Arafat atleast fear that this land would not be given back?[/I]
-- a widened corridor around Jerusalem; and
-- the populated western slopes of the Samarian heartland of the West Bank.
This last wedge of Jewish settlement was of prime concern to Likud strategists, particularly Sharon, who was intent upon establishing Israeli settlements to separate the large blocs of Arab population on either side of the Green Line north of Tel Aviv."
I have tried here to give you some straight anwers. I hope you see that question of the settlements is a critical obstacle on the path to peace, and that it is not as simple as you put it. If this really only has to do with Israeli security, then israel has to do more to convice me. I've read and seen to much of the history...
I have a question about settlements - why are they illegal? Aren't there lots of Palestinians living in (even pre-'67) Israel? If it's OK for Arabs to live in Israel, why isn't it OK for Israelis to live in Palestinian areas? Those who talk about getting rid of the settlements - would it be OK if Israel expelled all Arabs living in Israel in return for getting rid of the settlements?
It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because they've been living there since before Israel existed.
It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because:
A: The land has been taken by force, against UN resolutions.
B: Is held by force, again against UN resolutions.
C: The people who lived there, and owned the land have been removed with force, against international law.
This beeing said, Israel is practicing a policy of expelling arabs and have since 67 confiscated atleast 2000 ID-cards form jerusalem residents that don't "maintain ties with Jerusalem close enough". This is never done against jewish citizens.
I think the first thing you're forgetting is that the settlements are run by Israel and are essentially annexed land without the name. Israel's government has control, Israel's army is there making sure they stay in Israel's hands.
Hmm, ?exactly who does this land: Judea, Samaria, Gaza, belong to? Which recognized state has legal claim to it? Jordan? Egypt?
This land is no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally.
[quote] Hmm, ?exactly who does this land: Judea, Samaria, Gaza, belong to? Which recognized state has legal claim to it? Jordan? Egypt? <hr></blockquote>
The palestinian people have a legal claim to it. Remember them? Not russians or ethiopians, nomatter what relgion they are. Not Jordanians or Egyptians either, nomatter what religion they are.
[quote] This land is no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally. <hr></blockquote>
It belongs to the palestinians. There are people that have owned the the areas where the settlements are built for generations. Legally.
The palestinian people have a legal claim to it. Remember them? Not russians or ethiopians, nomatter what relgion they are. Not Jordanians or Egyptians either, nomatter what religion they are.
When did they establish a legal claim to our land? The Jordanians and Egyptians tried to establish the only claim to the land. They now relinquished their claims. That leaves Israel with the only legal claim to the land.
quote:
It belongs to the palestinians. There are people that have owned the the areas where the settlements are built for generations. Legally.
They never owned anything legally. The land was stolen by force. You are defending Arab imperialism and colonialism. I said it before and I?ll say it again. Israel belongs to the Arabs, just as much as Spain, North Africa, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, India, etc. belongs to the Arabs. They are a barbaric, empire building peoples that expanded their empire through the sword.
And just as they were eventually driven back from Europe and India, they will be eventually driven back from our lands.
The arabs didn't send the jewish people into diaspora you know...And both the Ottoman rulers and The british after them accepted the fact that the local inhabitants of the area called palestine, be they muslim, christian or jew, owned the land they lived on. This way they could be taxed.
Where do I defend Arab imperialism? Hello? Have you been reading these threads at all?
How I can do other than repeat myself when dealing with a brain-dead, duplicitous racist as your self?
quote:
The arabs didn't send the jewish people into diaspora you know..
They sure tried very hard. And many of them are still hard at it.
quote:
Where do I defend Arab imperialism? Hello? Have you been reading these threads at all?
The Arabs already have 21 states, and a landmass exponentially greater than us. To justify their claim to our land is to defend Arab imperialism and colonialism. And you have been doing so for as long as I have been on these boards.
It doesn?t matter how many times the land has changed hands. It was stolen land to begin with, and nobody had any business awarding it to anybody.
Read the topic of the thread: "what can we agree on ?!?"
You obviously have no intention of getting anywhere with this, so why don't you go troll somewhere else? You might as well be a PC user comming here to diss the mac...
Read the topic of the thread: "what can we agree on ?!?"
You obviously have no intention of getting anywhere with this, so why don't you go troll somewhere else? You might as well be a PC user comming here to diss the mac...</strong><hr></blockquote>
heheh, ? that?s funny ... PC troll ? right!
If you think I?m going to let your racist distortions to go unchecked here, well think again. (Oops, you?re brain-dead). You are a racist in my mind, and without a doubt. You have been caught more than once in this regard. And I?m going to catch you again and again and again. Until all here see your true face.
[quote] If you think I?m going to let your racist distortion to go unchecked here, well think again. (Oops, you?re braid-dead). You are a racist in my mind, and without a doubt. You have been caught more than once in this regard. <hr></blockquote>
Please show me one (1) quote, of any statement I've made, that can be classified as racsist. Your own list is getting quite long already.
If you think I?m going to let your racist distortions to go unchecked here, well think again. (Oops, you?re brain-dead). You are a racist in my mind, and without a doubt. You have been caught more than once in this regard. And I?m going to catch you again and again and again. Until all here see your true face.
Right. This is Mr 'All Arabs are barbarians' making loose with accusations of racism again?
Okiedokie.
[quote] They never owned anything legally. The land was stolen by force. You are defending Arab imperialism and colonialism. I said it before and I?ll say it again. Israel belongs to the Arabs, just as much as Spain, North Africa, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, India, etc. belongs to the Arabs. They are a barbaric, empire building peoples that expanded their empire through the sword.
<hr></blockquote>
A simple question. Where, exactly, did the people living in Palestine (let's call them, say, 'Palestinians', for the sake of argument) come from?
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
Please show me one (1) quote, of any statement I've made, that can be classified as racsist. Your own list is getting quite long already.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what do you call your argument to ethnically cleans Judea Samaria and Gaza of Jews? Not racist ?!? Plus you were very comfortable when ?little cuss? used his racial slurs. In fact, you found them quite funny. I?ll provide the references later. I?m quite tired now and I need to go to sleep.
Edit:
And now you're trying to get me banned on these boards? that is really weak NEW.
Comments
The lessons Israel should learn
by Meir Pa'il
=================================
The first conclusion that the Israeli political and security establishment should learn and internalize after 18 months of Palestinian Intifada, concerns the intensity of Palestinian blind terrorism and guerilla warfare against the State of Israel and the entire Israeli presence between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. These have reached dimensions that are both painful and impressive from the standpoint of the use of force. This is relevant not only for the Jewish public in Eretz-Israel and the world, but for most international actors, large and small, whatever their direct stake in the outcome.
Thus the upgrading of Palestinian warfare over the past year and a half arouses concern. It obliged the Israeli government in April 2002 to initiate a large-scale military offensive against Palestinian terrorist concentrations in all the Arab cities of the West Bank (except Jericho, Hebron and East Jerusalem) and surrounding Arab villages. This counterattack clearly reflected the Israel Defense Forces' force superiority in direct encounters with Palestinian terrorist bases. On the other hand, international pressures exercised by the United States, Europe and the United Nations forced Israel to withdraw the better part of its forces from most of the territories they occupied--a withdrawal that revealed, and apparently will continue to reveal, unnecessary acts of Israeli cruelty.
In the absence of a fair political solution for the realization of the Palestinian people's legitimate right to self determination--independence alongside Israel, not instead of Israel--brutal Palestinian terrorism will continue. In the not too distant future it will provoke new temporary IDF conquests, which in turn will generate intensified international pressures on Israel, followed by a renewed and temporary IDF withdrawal, and so on and on in a routine of bloodshed, until the only possible and fair political solution is realized: the establishment of an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, whose government operates in East Jerusalem. Such a solution will inevitably require the removal of a number of Israeli settlements from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It is apparent that without energetic pressure and intervention by the world's powers, led by the US, Israelis and Palestinians will not succeed on their own in compromising on a permanent peace agreement.
Meanwhile it behooves us to focus on two negative phenomena that are increasingly taking root in the Israeli reality. First, Israeli security circles are becoming captivated by the ritual of fences. This approach is based on a vain trust that failed as far back as 1938, when the British built the "northern fence" along the border with Lebanon. It makes sense to put up political fences to separate nations and states, but only after they have reached clear political understandings, and if possible peace agreements. A strategic fence without a political agreement is a pointless waste. Unfortunately, for some people in Israel the notion of a fence is replacing political peace arrangements.
Secondly, there is slowly developing a dangerous dynamic among Israel's Arab citizens. The more extreme the Palestinian struggle against Israel in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the stronger the negative suffusion of Palestinian hatred for Israel into the hearts of Israeli Arabs. This is an unnecessary additional injection of venom into Israel's future. It must not be ignored, lest this important Arab public, which has been slowly coming to terms with its fate of living together with us in a modern democratic country, now ally itself with our enemies.
In conclusion, note the interesting statement by General Peterson, from a visiting delegation of pro-Israel retired American generals (Yediot Aharonot, April 26, 2002, Saturday Supplement, p. 11): "Al Qaida exists and will continue to exist as long as there is a situation where people live without hope. This is the infrastructure where al-Qaida soldiers will be found." In my assessment, this perceptive analysis by an American general is doubly applicable to the Palestinian people.-Published 29/4/02(c)bitterlemons.org
Colonel (res.) Dr. Meir Pa'il is a military historian. He was a member of the 8th and 9th Knessets (1974-1981) on behalf of the Moked and Shelli peace parties.
If you are interested in a real debate then please answer these points which are THE relevant issues to solve if you want a real solution instead of a constant blame game.
1. Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafat's perceived motives with the lives of its people ?
2. Is Israel responsible for the failure of the PA to provide in real tangible benefit to the Palestinians during the Oslo years ?
3. If its peace and an acceptance of a two state solution that the Palestinians want why do they allow those murderers to operate in their cities and refugee camps ? ( these organisations BTW believe in the complete destruction of Israel).
4. We have just agreed on a pretty comprehensive solution and that very solution has been offered to the PA in Camp David and then in Taba why start the Intefada .. what did they gain by it ? why do you insist going back to the rhetoric of 'Israel wants to maintain the occupation and all that bull ?
5. You say Israel should not retaliate but instead talk to moderate Palestinians, Israel would love to talk to Abu Allah, Muhammad Dahlan, Seri Nuseybah etc..... but they don't dare, Arafat will fry their hide if they do ! what do you suggest ?
6. How can you ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong> In my mind, what we saw yesterday in Tel Aviv was the result... What has been tried and failed is getting Israel to stop expanding the settlements. They almost doubled in the years after Oslo. This is also one of the direct causes of what we see now. And Sharon was right in the drivers seat most of the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a pitiful answer and you tried to avoid answering the original question. Hamas and Jihad don't care about the settlements they want the whole of Israel ! when you say the settlements have doubled in the Oslo years you refer to many places on the border and Jerusalem which have simply expanded due to the growth of the population and absorption of new immigrants from Russia and Ethiopia ... there have not been that many new ones created inside the OT since Oslo and these WILL be removed in a political settlement ! besides justifying the murder of innocents by this is the most ridiculous thing you can do ! also what you say about Sharon being in the drivers seat all the time is pure lie ! Sharon has not been in government since Oslo was signed for the whole of the 90's apart from the years during the Netanyahu government from 96 to 99 where he was not really in charge of anything to do with the settlements ... I expected more from you then this ! and to add to all this you haven't answered my question !
It seems to me that our "feelings" about this conflict tend to draw our attention away from the real points of this debate.
To you, the main point here is the protection of the israeli people and their right to security. And to me, its about the palestinian peoples right to freedom and selfdetermination. You have no idea how many times I have seen good discussions (like this on) deteriorate into name calling. I guess it has to do with who we see as the "treathened party" here.
So I'll try to adress your points without letting too much feeling get involved.
[quote] 1. Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafat's perceived motives with the lives of its people ? <hr></blockquote>
Call it gamble if you will. Its easier for me to see Araftas motives clear, than Sharons. What is his motives really? I fear he'll never accept a Palestinian state.
I really don't think "gamble" is a good term on this. You question implies that Arafat has a hidden agenda of more than just establishing a palestinian state. maybe he also wants to take as many israeli lives as possible? I don't believe this. So to me "gambling" on negotiation with Arafat is the only alternative to "gambling" on confrontation with the same Arafat, and the rest of the palestinians. And I'd choose the former any day. If you see other alternatives, please enlighten me. But I'm afraid there arn't any. We're all stuck with Arafat for a while. Only the palestinian people can choose another leader. The recent actions have only made support for him stronger, and the more moderate alternatives weaker. The only real alternatives now are the the Hamas. And that would be disaster. In a more stable climate, elections could be held, and younger poeple brought forward. But Israel is the main "destabelising" force at the moment.
So I guess the answer is "yes", you have no choice. But there are ways to make the "gamble" easier.
[quote] 2. Is Israel responsible for the failure of the PA to provide in real tangible benefit to the Palestinians during the Oslo years ? <hr></blockquote>
No, the PA have done a lot of failing themselves. However, Israel also failed miserably on three decisive points. They did not withdraw their millitary at the pace they promissed. They did not lift the restrictions on the borders between the OT and Israel as much as they should. Leaving the Palestinian economy with no real opportunity to blossom. And, most importantly, not a single day since Oslo in 1993 went by without the expansion of the illigal settlements. If peace was to be messured by the amount of your land given back or taken away from you. The last ten years have been the worst since 67...
[quote] 3. If its peace and an acceptance of a two state solution that the Palestinians want why do they allow those murderers to operate in their cities and refugee camps ? ( these organisations BTW believe in the complete destruction of Israel). <hr></blockquote>
I agree with your thinking here. But again you imply that it would have been possible to root these forces out. I suspect that it is not this simple. The powerstruggle and corruption in the PA, combined with the amount of influence organisations like Hamas have (have you seen their social institutions?), would make this very difficult. The PA suffer from structures of power common in arabian countries. No centralised police autority and no centralised social program. You see some of the same tendecies as in Afghanistan. The sending of former CIA head Tennet to look at the structures and posible reforme of the PA secrity forces seems very wise, but does he have any autority left after the israeli actions?
[quote] 4. We have just agreed on a pretty comprehensive solution and that very solution has been offered to the PA in Camp David and then in Taba why start the Intefada .. what did they gain by it ? why do you insist going back to the rhetoric of 'Israel wants to maintain the occupation and all that bull ? <hr></blockquote>
I don't see the Taba offer as anything close to what we here have agreed upon.
Instead of anwering this further, i'd like to post a copy of Ghassan Khatib (the director of the Jerusalem Media and Communication Centre) analysis on this. It's a bit long but it anwers both your points on Taba and palestinian gains better than I ever could. (As I am not a palestinian).
Significant gains at great cost
by Ghassan Khatib
Before one engages the question of what Palestinians have gained and lost over the last 18 months of confrontation, it is important to note two things. First, it makes more sense to ask that question to the party responsible for the transformation of relations. Israel, by creating a political vacuum in which Palestinians were asked to take-or-leave the Camp David proposals, stirring up hostility by sending right-wing extremist leader Ariel Sharon to visit Jerusalem's holiest Muslim shrine and then killing non-violent Palestinian demonstrators at a rate of ten a day in the start of the Intifada, bears the bulk of the responsibility for the situation we are in right now. As such, it would be interesting to know what Israel believes it has gained, other than bloodshed on both sides.
It is also an integral part of any discussion of gains and losses to note that we are now in the dire situation of a zero sum game: any defeat on one side is considered a success by the other.
Palestinians believe that their most important accomplishment over the last 18 months of confrontation has been to focus world attention once again on the Israeli occupation. For years, this fundamental aspect of the conflict was absent from discussions on the Middle East, despite the fact that even in its latest stages, the peace process allowed Israel direct military occupation on 82 percent of the Palestinian territories. Israel began to feel resentful of demands that it continue the agreed-upon gradual redeployment of its army from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Alongside that obstinacy, Israel did not allow one day of peace negotiations go by without further expanding its illegal Jewish settlements on confiscated Palestinian lands.
Perhaps then, the first gain of the Palestinians--reminding the world that they remain occupied--is tied to the second gain. Over the years of peaceful talks, Israelis increasingly seemed to believe that Palestinians had no other choice but to submit to Israeli will, hence their gradual process of slowing and stopping altogether Israeli redeployments from Palestinian land and the implementation of other components of signed agreements. Palestinians, too, started to feel that they were hostage to Israeli dictates and were simply waiting for Israel to give what it was willing to give.
While Palestinians prefer using peaceful means to achieve their rights, these confrontations have shown all concerned that Palestinians have other means of leverage. There is no doubt that when the Palestinian Authority dropped all other paths save that of peace negotiations, its bargaining position was weakened. Israel stopped respecting its agreements because it had no reason to do so. Now, it is equally clear that Palestinians do maintain the option of violent resistance, an option that has strengthened the Palestinian bargaining position for the future.
The other important Palestinian gain has been to put an end to Israel's ability to have its cake and eat it, too. The Oslo agreement stipulated that Israel should finish redeploying its forces out of all of the occupied territories, excluding Jerusalem and the settlements, which were to be negotiated in final talks. In the five years in which Israel redeployed from only 18 percent of the land, it was able to benefit greatly from its role as a peace partner. Lucrative windows of opportunity were opened for Israel, which gained significant new economic markets and benefited from economic enterprises, not only as a result of the opening of Arab markets, but also through the international perception that Israel was gradually becoming part of an integrated and peaceful Middle East.
The last 18 months of confrontations have exposed Israel's true nature as an aggressive occupier to the outside world. If this really is a zero-sum game, then it is to Palestinians' benefit that Israel's image has been damaged. It was former presidential advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski who said recently that it was disappointing to the friends of Israel, who expect it to be the shining light of democracy in the Middle East, that the majority of the world considers Israel to be a repressive state.
It must be said that all of these Palestinian gains have come at an extremely high cost. Israel has now regained some security control over the 18 percent of the occupied territories that it had previously given up. In addition, the significant nation-building and state-building accomplished by Palestinians with the generous help of the international donor community has been largely destroyed, especially in the last few months of indiscriminate Israeli bombardment and the recent attacks aimed directly at destroying those achievements. Finally, the prolonged Israeli policy of restricting Palestinian movement over the entire 18 months of confrontations, a policy intended to cause social and political disintegration, is starting to have its effect.
------
This is the palestinian view (or ONE palestinians view).
My stance is that if Isreal really wanted to lift the occupation, they could have easily done so long ago (before the uprising). But does Israel really want to get out? I hear you say they do
[quote] 5. You say Israel should not retaliate but instead talk to moderate Palestinians, Israel would love to talk to Abu Allah, Muhammad Dahlan, Seri Nuseybah etc..... but they don't dare, Arafat will fry their hide if they do ! what do you suggest ?<hr></blockquote>
Again I really don't get your question. Many parallell processes on many levels where started as a result of Oslo. Many initiatives where taken. I don't see Arafat having any problem with these. They have not been forbidden while he has been in power.
If you think I suggest that the GOI should negotiate with others than the PA, you misunderstood me. He is still the elected leader.
What I see is a palestinian people who no longer listen to their intellectual leaders. Much because their talk has gotten them nowhere, and they are still beeing punished collectively as a people by Israel. Right now, I bet these guys are more populare with europeans and israelis than with palestinians.
[quote] 6. How can you ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results ! <hr></blockquote>
Yes, total curfew and complete siege does work great. Much like putting a plastic bag over a bee hive would work great for containing the bees, -a limited amount of time. But what happens next? Rishon Letzion happens next. And there will be more attacks. Moving against Gaza like Israel did against the West Bank, could prove disaterous. Gaza is the most densly populated area on earth. 70 % of the population are refugees or have refugee origin. And the Refugee camps are 4 to 5 times bigger than Jenin.
[quote] when you say the settlements have doubled in the Oslo years you refer to many places on the border and Jerusalem which have simply expanded due to the growth of the population and absorption of new immigrants from Russia and Ethiopia ...<hr></blockquote>
And I sound like a PA spokesman?!?
Get real. Let me dig up some fact for you on the settlement expansion. btw you still haven't
commented on the Sharon "run and grab every hill" statement.
Lets see:
[quote] there have not been that many new ones created inside the OT since Oslo and these WILL be removed in a political settlement !<hr></blockquote>
If they will be removed, why the expansion?
What other way can you interpret this than an attemnet to grab as much land possible?
[quote] besides justifying the murder of innocents by this is the most ridiculous thing you can do ! also what you say about Sharon being in the drivers seat all the time is pure lie ! Sharon has not been in government since Oslo was signed for the whole of the 90's apart from the years during the Netanyahu government from 96 to 99 where he was not really in charge of anything to do with the settlements ...
<hr></blockquote>
A pure lie?
Sharon was very active in forming the Likud settlement policy ever since 77 and up to 92.
In this peroid settlements icreased by 2000% (yes two thousand!)
Sharon was in 90-92 Minister of Construction and Housing.
from 96 - 98 he was Minister of National Infrastructure again in charge of settlement construction. In this peroid 30 new settlements where established, and the numbers of settlers grew from 109 000 to 200 000 in 99 excluding settlement in the greater Jerusalem metropolitan area.
"In September 1977 Begin's minister of agriculture, Ariel Sharon, unveiled "A vision of Israel at Century's End," calling for the settlement of 2 million Jews in the occupied territories. The Likud plan proposed settling Jews in areas of Arab habitation and for numerous settlement points as well as large urban concentrations in three principle areas:
-- a north-south axis running from the Golan through the Jordan Valley and down the east coast of Sinai; [I ](my note: what a strange coincidence that this are is to be the last to be withdrawn from by the israeli millitary, Did Barak know that this was gonna be a hard nut to crack with the Likud and the far right? or did Arafat atleast fear that this land would not be given back?[/I]
-- a widened corridor around Jerusalem; and
-- the populated western slopes of the Samarian heartland of the West Bank.
This last wedge of Jewish settlement was of prime concern to Likud strategists, particularly Sharon, who was intent upon establishing Israeli settlements to separate the large blocs of Arab population on either side of the Green Line north of Tel Aviv."
source: <a href="http://www.fmep.org/reports/"; target="_blank">The Foundation for Middle East Peace</a>
I have tried here to give you some straight anwers. I hope you see that question of the settlements is a critical obstacle on the path to peace, and that it is not as simple as you put it. If this really only has to do with Israeli security, then israel has to do more to convice me. I've read and seen to much of the history...
It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because:
A: The land has been taken by force, against UN resolutions.
B: Is held by force, again against UN resolutions.
C: The people who lived there, and owned the land have been removed with force, against international law.
This beeing said, Israel is practicing a policy of expelling arabs and have since 67 confiscated atleast 2000 ID-cards form jerusalem residents that don't "maintain ties with Jerusalem close enough". This is never done against jewish citizens.
I think the first thing you're forgetting is that the settlements are run by Israel and are essentially annexed land without the name. Israel's government has control, Israel's army is there making sure they stay in Israel's hands.
If you're still wondering why it's illegal...
This land is no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally.
You can?t have it both ways.
mika.
The palestinian people have a legal claim to it. Remember them? Not russians or ethiopians, nomatter what relgion they are. Not Jordanians or Egyptians either, nomatter what religion they are.
[quote] This land is no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally. <hr></blockquote>
It belongs to the palestinians. There are people that have owned the the areas where the settlements are built for generations. Legally.
The palestinian people have a legal claim to it. Remember them? Not russians or ethiopians, nomatter what relgion they are. Not Jordanians or Egyptians either, nomatter what religion they are.
When did they establish a legal claim to our land? The Jordanians and Egyptians tried to establish the only claim to the land. They now relinquished their claims. That leaves Israel with the only legal claim to the land.
quote:
It belongs to the palestinians. There are people that have owned the the areas where the settlements are built for generations. Legally.
They never owned anything legally. The land was stolen by force. You are defending Arab imperialism and colonialism. I said it before and I?ll say it again. Israel belongs to the Arabs, just as much as Spain, North Africa, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, India, etc. belongs to the Arabs. They are a barbaric, empire building peoples that expanded their empire through the sword.
And just as they were eventually driven back from Europe and India, they will be eventually driven back from our lands.
mika.
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
The arabs didn't send the jewish people into diaspora you know...And both the Ottoman rulers and The british after them accepted the fact that the local inhabitants of the area called palestine, be they muslim, christian or jew, owned the land they lived on. This way they could be taxed.
Where do I defend Arab imperialism? Hello? Have you been reading these threads at all?
Can you do anything other than repeat yourself?
How I can do other than repeat myself when dealing with a brain-dead, duplicitous racist as your self?
quote:
The arabs didn't send the jewish people into diaspora you know..
They sure tried very hard. And many of them are still hard at it.
quote:
Where do I defend Arab imperialism? Hello? Have you been reading these threads at all?
The Arabs already have 21 states, and a landmass exponentially greater than us. To justify their claim to our land is to defend Arab imperialism and colonialism. And you have been doing so for as long as I have been on these boards.
It doesn?t matter how many times the land has changed hands. It was stolen land to begin with, and nobody had any business awarding it to anybody.
mika.
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Read the topic of the thread: "what can we agree on ?!?"
You obviously have no intention of getting anywhere with this, so why don't you go troll somewhere else? You might as well be a PC user comming here to diss the mac...
<strong>This doesn't dignify an answer.
Read the topic of the thread: "what can we agree on ?!?"
You obviously have no intention of getting anywhere with this, so why don't you go troll somewhere else? You might as well be a PC user comming here to diss the mac...</strong><hr></blockquote>
heheh, ? that?s funny ... PC troll ? right!
If you think I?m going to let your racist distortions to go unchecked here, well think again. (Oops, you?re brain-dead). You are a racist in my mind, and without a doubt. You have been caught more than once in this regard. And I?m going to catch you again and again and again. Until all here see your true face.
mika.
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Please show me one (1) quote, of any statement I've made, that can be classified as racsist. Your own list is getting quite long already.
<strong>
heheh, ? that?s funny ... PC troll ? right!
If you think I?m going to let your racist distortions to go unchecked here, well think again. (Oops, you?re brain-dead). You are a racist in my mind, and without a doubt. You have been caught more than once in this regard. And I?m going to catch you again and again and again. Until all here see your true face.
mika.
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right. This is Mr 'All Arabs are barbarians' making loose with accusations of racism again?
Okiedokie.
[quote] They never owned anything legally. The land was stolen by force. You are defending Arab imperialism and colonialism. I said it before and I?ll say it again. Israel belongs to the Arabs, just as much as Spain, North Africa, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, India, etc. belongs to the Arabs. They are a barbaric, empire building peoples that expanded their empire through the sword.
<hr></blockquote>
A simple question. Where, exactly, did the people living in Palestine (let's call them, say, 'Palestinians', for the sake of argument) come from?
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>
Please show me one (1) quote, of any statement I've made, that can be classified as racsist. Your own list is getting quite long already.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what do you call your argument to ethnically cleans Judea Samaria and Gaza of Jews? Not racist ?!? Plus you were very comfortable when ?little cuss? used his racial slurs. In fact, you found them quite funny. I?ll provide the references later. I?m quite tired now and I need to go to sleep.
Edit:
And now you're trying to get me banned on these boards? that is really weak NEW.
mika.
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>
And now you're trying to get me banned on these boards? that is really weak NEW.
mika.
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
New, are you trying to get him banned?