<strong>How else is anti-jew propaganda supposed to be spread fully if the jews keep putting their hook noses into everything? Gotta gas... err, ban em!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you accusing New of spreading anti- Jewish propaganda simply because he's questioning the policies of the Israeli government?
To equate criticism of Israel to a desire to gas Jewish people: well, that doesn't really help anyone. It's guaranteed to raise the temperature and it's going to make any debate impossible. And it's insulting to New, who's about the most articulate guy I've seen on this board.
And I, for one, would gladly see the back of that guy Mika. If I came out with all the Jewish stereotypes (tight-fisted, usurious, rahrahrah, you know the deal) I'd be off this board like a shot and quite right too. So no sympathy from this quarter, no sir.
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
[quote] So what do you call your argument to ethnically cleans Judea Samaria and Gaza of Jews? Not racist ?!?<hr></blockquote>
When did I do this? I've never said such a thing. Not even remotely close.
[quote] Plus you were very comfortable when ?little cuss? used his racial slurs. In fact, you found them quite funny. <hr></blockquote>
I didn't find his jokes racist. And I did not take him serious. If my "LOL" offendend you, then I'm sorry.
[quote] How else is anti-jew propaganda supposed to be spread fully if the jews keep putting their hook noses into everything? Gotta gas... err, ban em! <hr></blockquote>
This is low. To tell you the truth, When I discussed israeli politics with Michael Melchior (Now a member of Knesset, and a minister in the israeli government) he didn't find my arguments racist or anti-jewish. I first met him when he was the rabbi in my cousines Bar Mitzva ok, so don't go there.
[quote] New, are you trying to get him banned? <hr></blockquote>
I posted this question to Jonathan in the "suggestions" forum:
"Can PC^KILLA be banned?
Personally I feel this has gone a bit too far. I think he is now deliberatly trying to ruin all the threads discussion the Middle East.
His recent "racism" accusations are way over the top, as is his lashing out at certain ethnic groups, and anyone disagreeing with him on these boards."
And I stick by this. I feel he is trying to ruin every discussion about this topic on these boards.
I didn't find his jokes racist. And I did not take him serious. If my "LOL" offendend you, then I'm sorry.
Here is some of the stuff you found amusing:
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>i believe the proper slur is 'peckerwood'... or 'peck' fer short.
heheee, i remember the first time i introduced my friend Kiren(hindu) to my friend Abass(paki muslim)... they spent the evening glaring at each other with their father's eyes.
t'was cute, and frightfully stoopid...
cuss
p.s. here's yer homework peckerjew, tomorrow, yer to comb the chilly environs of peckerwood central(ie sota, wisco, illy etc. aka; twelfth circle of hell) to find a camel jockey... strike up a convo and find out if he's as bloodthirsty as jewry jewfeldt from Haifa thinks he is and then report yer findings here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is more. Topic: Violence in Israel/Palestine pg. 8-9
quote
Please show me one (1) quote, of any statement I've made, that can be classified as racsist. Your own list is getting quite long already.
You are a real piece of work.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because they've been living there since before Israel existed.
It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because:
A: The land has been taken by force, against UN resolutions.
B: Is held by force, again against UN resolutions.
C: The people who lived there, and owned the land have been removed with force, against international law.
This being said, Israel is practicing a policy of expelling arabs and have since 67 confiscated atleast 2000 ID-cards form jerusalem residents that don't "maintain ties with Jerusalem close enough". This is never done against jewish citizens.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And you just posted this!
You say that they have been living there since before Israel existed, but when I pressed on this issue, you failed to show that. (Violence in Israel/Palestine). Instead you referred to some made up numbers. My contention is that most of these people have been artificially infused into these areas during the years 1947-1967 when these areas were under the control of the Jordanians and Egyptians. The fact that all of the structures are relatively new supports this contention.
Also, Israel gained these areas through the exercise of self- defence against Jordan Egypt and Syria. And according to international law, she has every right to them. How all of the sudden these lands became "Palestinian" is beyond me.
Now, as regards the id cards. These id cards entitle the holders to Israeli social security funds. The cards have been withheld in cases where the cardholders have been identified as members of the PA apparatus or not living in Jerusalem. You can?t have it both ways. You are either part of Israeli society or you?re part of the PA. I still don't understand, why they receive these funds in first place, or what exactly did they do to deserve these id cards.
quote
Relax, he won't get banned. At least I won't insist on it.
How kind of you. Especially since you?ve been rebuffed by the moderators. You are still a despicable rat.
quote
When I discussed israeli politics with Michael Melchior (Now a member of Knesset, and a minister in the israeli government) he didn't find my arguments racist or anti-jewish. I first met him when he was the rabbi in my cousines Bar Mitzva ok, so don't go there.
Actually, I?ve met MK Melchior. And I?m sure if he would have spent as much time as I have with you, and read some of the garbage you?ve been so diligent in posting in these forums, he would have come to the same conclusions about you as I have.
It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because they've been living there since before Israel existed.
It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because:
A: The land has been taken by force, against UN resolutions.
B: Is held by force, again against UN resolutions.
C: The people who lived there, and owned the land have been removed with force, against international law.
This being said, Israel is practicing a policy of expelling arabs and have since 67 confiscated atleast 2000 ID-cards form jerusalem residents that don't "maintain ties with Jerusalem close enough". This is never done against jewish citizens.
And you just posted this! <hr></blockquote>
Do better.
His criticism is of the policies of a secular, democratic government; he's saying nothing about the genetic provenance of the electorate. Where is the racism?
[quote] Also, Israel gained these areas through the exercise of self- defence against Jordan Egypt and Syria. <hr></blockquote>
Pardon me, but how can a nation gain land through an act of self-defence?
[quote] And according to international law, she has every right to them. How all of the sudden these lands became "Palestinian" is beyond me. <hr></blockquote>
Martian international law, possibly. Terrestrial international law is quite specific on the matter. And the people living there deserved their own state long before the creation of Israel, for that matter.
[quote] My contention is that most of these people have been artificially infused into these areas during the years 1947-1967 when these areas were under the control of the Jordanians and Egyptians. The fact that all of the structures are relatively new supports this contention. <hr></blockquote>
Um... I'm looking at the dates, and as far as I can tell, they were still there first even if 'your contention' is correct. (Incidentally, oh forget it.)
[quote]Actually, I?ve met MK Melchior. <hr></blockquote>
Bollocks.
[quote] And I?m sure if he would have spent as much time as I have with you, and read some of the garbage you?ve been so diligent in posting in these forums, he would have come to the same conclusions about you as I have.
<hr></blockquote>
How convenient. Let's ask him, shall we?
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
Killa, there is nothing remotely racist in my reply. The statement is only adressing the settlements in the OT, it doesn't refer to jews in general at all.
As I said, I didn't find cuss's comments racist, as I didn't take then seriously, and as they didn't direct themselves at one group in particulare, but rather at everyone present, me included. ("libby hippi New")
But I see why you could be offended by him, but to blame me for it is a bit harsh, don't you think?
[quote]You say that they have been living there since before Israel existed, but when I pressed on this issue, you failed to show that. (Violence in Israel/Palestine). Instead you referred to some made up numbers. My contention is that most of these people have been artificially infused into these areas during the years 1947-1967 when these areas were under the control of the Jordanians and Egyptians. The fact that all of the structures are relatively new supports this contention.<hr></blockquote>
So you didn't read the old numbers of the National Geographic Magazine then?
These articles written as early as 1907, (I only read the 1934 article myself), describe in detail the life of the arabians living in the area, their industries, and the "new" imigration of jews that was starting to make an impact on palestine. Did you know for instance that there where 4000 cars and busses in palestine in 1934? Two main railroads? Streetlight in the main cities?
That 4000 tonns of palestinian olive oil soap was exported as far as south america that year? or 4 000 000 cases of fruit? (the article even spesifies that this is from arab crops only, whlie the new jewish crops were too young to have fruit in 1934).
Did you know that the museum of Art in Toledo exibited arabian glasswork from Hebron. In 1934 there where in addition to the the big cities 750 arabian towns and villages in Palestine, while the number of jewish settlements were nearly a 100.
And not even you can label this as propaganda.
[quote]Actually, I?ve met MK Melchior. And I?m sure if he would have spent as much time as I have with you, and read some of the garbage you?ve been so diligent in posting in these forums, he would have come to the same conclusions about you as I have.<hr></blockquote>
I suspect he would spend considerably more time than you, actually caring to pick up more than just one fraction of an argument here and there. Like Rashumon has done. It must be posible for you to refrain from calling me a racist and a brain-dead everytime you run out of arguments...
So you didn't read the old numbers of the National Geographic Magazine then?
These articles written as early as 1907, (I only read the 1934 article myself), describe in detail the life of the arabians living in the area, their industries, and the "new" imigration of jews that was starting to make an impact on palestine. Did you know for instance that there where 4000 cars and busses in palestine in 1934? Two main railroads? Streetlight in the main cities?
That 4000 tonns of palestinian olive oil soap was exported as far as south america that year? or 4 000 000 cases of fruit? (the article even spesifies that this is from arab crops only, whlie the new jewish crops were too young to have fruit in 1934).
Did you know that the museum of Art in Toledo exibited arabian glasswork from Hebron. In 1934 there where in addition to the the big cities 750 arabian towns and villages in Palestine, while the number of jewish settlements were nearly a 100.
And not even you can label this as propaganda.
Well, why don?t you scan the article(s) and make them available on your iDisk. I?d really like to see how they arrived at these numbers. 750 Arab towns and villages ? this is going to be interesting. Especially since the area was a practical dessert before Israel built the national water carrier in the 50?s to divert water from the Kinneret.
quote
Killa, there is nothing remotely racist in my reply. The statement is only adressing the settlements in the OT, it doesn't refer to jews in general at all.
Well then, you?ll agree that there was nothing remotely racist about Hitler either. After all, he was only addressing Jewish ?settlements? in Europe.
quote
As I said, I didn't find cuss's comments racist, as I didn't take then seriously, and as they didn't direct themselves at one group in particulare, but rather at everyone present, me included. ("libby hippi New")
Hmm, ? Ok. Let?s catalog some of the racial slurs you found ?non-racist? and perfectly acceptable, even amusing.
Jewboys
Raghead
Peckerwoods
paki
peckerjew
camel jockey
jewry jewfeldt
heeb
haifaheeb
i don't fiddle with yids
i know what i said nig
yo yiddy
yer money-grubbin' momma
Curlylocks the diamond merchant
Heebie
keep yer head down heeb
etc.
quote
I doubt he'll have the time, being deputy foreign minister and all, but it would actually have been really cool...
I?ll let people draw their own conclusions about what MK Melchior will draw from your arguments including those supporting Arafat, and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
Remarks of Deputy Foreign Minister Rabbi Michael Melchior at Israel Solidarity Rally
Washington, DC, April 15, 2002
The war which we the people of Israel are fighting, this war which has been forced upon us, is a crucial war, not just for Israel, but for the world at large.
This is a war for our homes and our families, for the basic right to live without fear in our land, without terrorists seeking to attack our future, our children in pizza shops and discotheques, and our freedom-at a Pesach Seder. But it is also more than that: it is a war for civilization.
What is civilization? Civilization is the recognition that certain values-human life, truth, tolerance, love of parents for children-are sacrosanct, and that no goal or political objective can justify violating them. But today we face an enemy that has delared civilization its enemy. And there is no value, however sacred, that the scourge of fundamentalist terrorism has not trampled underfoot.
Ambulances which sould protect the sick, transport terrorists and munitions; mosques and churches, places of worship and contemplation, become fortresses for terrorist killers who shoot from their windows; a UN conference in Durban intended to combat racism and slavery not only does nothing to help the oppressed, but hosts the most antisemitic diatribes since the second world war; and Palestinian parents who have lost one child to the madness of suicide bombing, express the wish that their other children will follow suit.
The dark forces of national and religious fundamentalism which have been unleashed are not limited to our region. This is a vital struggle, not just for Israel, but for free countries across the world. Palestinian terrorism already claims the copyright on other heinous acts that have spread throughout areas of conflict including hijackings, and the placing of children in the line of fire. There is no doubt that if this fundamentalist suicidal terrorism is not defeated-and decisively-we will see it threatening free societies around the world.
We did not choose to fight this dreadful war. To the contrary, the last Israeli Government, of which I was a member, made far-reaching peace proposals, recognizing that without secure borders for the Palestinians, there can be no secure borders for Israel; without dignity for the Palestinian people there can be no true dignity for Israelis; and without peace for the Palestinians, there can be none for Israel. And these truths hold today. We are not fighting the Palestinian people. We continue to respect their aspirations to independence. And still today, if the Palestinian leadership is ready to choose peace and progress, they will find that no people wants peace, or is prepared to sacrifice more for it, than Israel.
But that is not the leadership we have seen. We have seen a leadership which, at the peak of the peace process, not only rejected Israel's proposals, but responded with a wave of brutal violence that has continued and escalated to this day. We have seen a leader who funds acts of terror and talks of throwing the Jews into the sea, while his wife, this week, has declared her ambition for her child to grow up to become a suicide bomber. So, while we still hope for peace, we are fighting a war that has given us no choice.
It is crucial that we win this war. But it is just as crucial how we win. In ancient times the Children of Israel would carry the holy ark containing the Ten Commandments in front of them into battle as a reminder that, however bloody the fighting, there were rules and values that still must be respected. Today, in a battle in which our enemy is prepared to stoop to any level, we have to respect our values while still fighting for them. This is the harderst challenge: to maintain a semblance of humanity in the midst of the conflict. Never has it been so hard to find the balance between protecting the lives of innocent Israelis threatened by terrorism and violence, and of Palestinian civilians living in those areas from where acts of terror are emanating. Never has it been so hard to find a way of ensuring security while recognizing the humanity of the Palestinians living under our control. To weigh the risk that striking at terror today,could increase their motivaion for a terrorist attack tomorrow.
These are questions with which Israel-its army and its civilians-grapple every day. And so we should. Just as we should feel the anguish at the loss of civilian lives among the Palestinians, which is also a chillul hashem, a desecration of God's name, notwithstanding the justice of our fight. And even if our answers to these questions are not always right, and indeed in many cases there are no right answers, we are asking the right questions. While our opponents ask how to kill as many civilians as possible, we ask how we can limit the loss to civilian life. While they ask how to inflame the passions of the Arab world, we ask how we might get back to the negotiating table. And ultimately, this is the reason that there can be no moral equivalence between our efforts to defend our civilians and the heinous attempts of Palestinian terorists to destroy them.
Can it be that so much of the world, which sees this moral equivalence, is wrong and we are right? Indeed it can. In recent weeks news in the Arab world has reported yet again age-old blood-libels against Jews, and, in the millions, reprinted the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion. These lies, across the generations, have led to countless pogroms and to the createst crime the world has known. But they also served as a reminder to every Jew that the world could be wrong. It could accuse Jews of inconceivable atrocities, and yet we would know, within ourselves, where the truth lies.
Today we see antisemitism spreading once again like a plague, with attacks throughout Europe raising painful spectres of the last century: in Antwerp, in Paris and in Lyon, in Tunis and in Strasbourg, in Kiev, as well as in Los Angeles and Toronto. It falls to us to bear witness, that ignoring such incidents will not make them go away. Governments that deny antisemitic attacks, or fail to address them, are only inviting antisemites to turn up the volume. Antisemitism, like terrorism, breeds in those places where there is no courage to confront it.
Today, when across the world we see a coalition of hatred which knows no borders, it becomes more improtant than ever to harness a coalition of civilizations, which also must know no borders. This coalition must include Palestinians and Israelis, Christians, Moslems and Jews-indeed every believer in the future of democracy and decency.
There is no alternative. Otherwise, everything turns back to darkness and chaos. The United States, with its moral force, must lead this coalition for democracy and peace against terror and hatred.
This is a coalition in which there is no neutrality. As President Bush has taught us, there are only the defenders of freedom, and those who are helping, either actively or passively, to undermine it. This is a vital cause-and a holy one.
The Torah portion of this week, Kdoshim, describes the biblical laws of kedusha, holiness. And the climax of these laws, the peak of holiness, is remarkable. It is the simple commandment "Ve'ahavta l'reacha kamocha, "Love your neighbor because he is as yourself." This is true holiness. We will never accept those who would pervert this holiness, who subscribe to a doctrine of 'Kill your neighbor with yourself.' Let us never forget, it is always the victim, neverthe murderers-never the shaheeds-who are the holy ones.
This fight seems overwhelming. A raging sea of violence seems ready to engulf us, and many of us have moments of despair. But our people, from its earliest days, have found ways of crossing such seas. I pray-and truly believe-that if we keep sight of the values for which we are fighting, we will cross this sea as well, and reach the land of which we have so long dreamed-the land of peace.
quote
It must be posible for you to refrain from calling me a racist and a brain-dead everytime you run out of arguments?
Well, what are your arguments?
] Afarat is not a terrorist and is not responsible for the murderous terror campaign unleashed against Israelis.
] It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because ? The land has been taken by force ?
] It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because ? The land has been NOT been taken by force ?
These are a brain-dead arguments that ignore all historical facts.
Even in the UN, which is so rabidly anti-Israeli, this land is a no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally. And advocating the ethnic cleansing of Jews from their historical homeland in Judea and Samaria and denying their historical claims to their land IS racist! And MK Melchior will agree with that.
[quote]Well, why don?t you scan these article(s) and make them available on your iDisk. I?d really like to see how they arrived at these numbers. 750 Arab towns and villages ? this is going to be interesting. Especially since the area was a practical dessert before Israel built the national water carrier in the 50?s to divert water from the Kinneret.<hr></blockquote>
If you read my post, you'd see that I don't have the article at hand, but I'll get it. You can also dig it up yourself, I've provided all the details. It's no secret that the average israeli uses ten times as much water as the average palestinian. It is also no secret that the bast farmeland in Gaza and the West Bank is the land beeing settled. Much farmeland has also been laid waste since the occupation.
[quote]Killa, there is nothing remotely racist in my reply. The statement is only adressing the settlements in the OT, it doesn't refer to jews in general at all.
Well then, you?ll agree that there was nothing remotely racist about Hitler either. After all, he was only addressing Jewish ?settlements? in Europe.
<hr></blockquote>
Your an asshole, the two situations could not be more remote. If you want to draw analogys back to nazi-gremany, then read up on "lebensraum". jerk.
[quote]Hmm, ? Ok. Let?s catalog some of the racial slurs you found ?non-racist? and perfectly acceptable, even amusing.
Jewboys
Raghead
Peckerwoods
paki
peckerjew
camel jockey
jewry jewfeldt
heeb
haifaheeb
i don't fiddle with yids
i know what i said nig
yo yiddy
yer money-grubbin' momma
Curlylocks the diamond merchant
Heebie
keep yer head down heeb
<hr></blockquote>
happily clipping away the parts you don't like again eh?
I also wrote this:
But I see why you could be offended by him, but to blame me for it is a bit harsh, don't you think? And still you seem to want to hold me responsible for his comments. And your replys to him? tasteless at best.
[quote]
I?ll let people draw their own conclusions about what MK Melchior will draw from your arguments including those supporting Arafat, and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.<hr></blockquote>
Will you cut out that ethnic cleansing s**t? I've never said this. Expelling the arabs from their homes is much closer to ethnic cleansing.
In regard to Mechiors statement, I disagree with him on many point, but I still find positive things here that are far better than anything comming from you.
(I've highlighted those parts)
[quote]
Remarks of Deputy Foreign Minister Rabbi Michael Melchior at Israel Solidarity Rally
Washington, DC, April 15, 2002
The war which we the people of Israel are fighting, this war which has been forced upon us, is a crucial war, not just for Israel, but for the world at large.
This is a war for our homes and our families, for the basic right to live without fear in our land, without terrorists seeking to attack our future, our children in pizza shops and discotheques, and our freedom-at a Pesach Seder. But it is also more than that: it is a war for civilization.
What is civilization? Civilization is the recognition that certain values-human life, truth, tolerance, love of parents for children-are sacrosanct, and that no goal or political objective can justify violating them. But today we face an enemy that has delared civilization its enemy. And there is no value, however sacred, that the scourge of fundamentalist terrorism has not trampled underfoot.
Ambulances which sould protect the sick, transport terrorists and munitions; mosques and churches, places of worship and contemplation, become fortresses for terrorist killers who shoot from their windows; a UN conference in Durban intended to combat racism and slavery not only does nothing to help the oppressed, but hosts the most antisemitic diatribes since the second world war; and Palestinian parents who have lost one child to the madness of suicide bombing, express the wish that their other children will follow suit.
The dark forces of national and religious fundamentalism which have been unleashed are not limited to our region. This is a vital struggle, not just for Israel, but for free countries across the world. Palestinian terrorism already claims the copyright on other heinous acts that have spread throughout areas of conflict including hijackings, and the placing of children in the line of fire. There is no doubt that if this fundamentalist suicidal terrorism is not defeated-and decisively-we will see it threatening free societies around the world.
We did not choose to fight this dreadful war. To the contrary, the last Israeli Government, of which I was a member, made far-reaching peace proposals, recognizing that without secure borders for the Palestinians, there can be no secure borders for Israel; without dignity for the Palestinian people there can be no true dignity for Israelis; and without peace for the Palestinians, there can be none for Israel. And these truths hold today. We are not fighting the Palestinian people. We continue to respect their aspirations to independence. And still today, if the Palestinian leadership is ready to choose peace and progress, they will find that no people wants peace, or is prepared to sacrifice more for it, than Israel.
But that is not the leadership we have seen. We have seen a leadership which, at the peak of the peace process, not only rejected Israel's proposals, but responded with a wave of brutal violence that has continued and escalated to this day. We have seen a leader who funds acts of terror and talks of throwing the Jews into the sea, while his wife, this week, has declared her ambition for her child to grow up to become a suicide bomber. So, while we still hope for peace, we are fighting a war that has given us no choice.
It is crucial that we win this war. But it is just as crucial how we win. In ancient times the Children of Israel would carry the holy ark containing the Ten Commandments in front of them into battle as a reminder that, however bloody the fighting, there were rules and values that still must be respected. Today, in a battle in which our enemy is prepared to stoop to any level, we have to respect our values while still fighting for them. This is the harderst challenge: to maintain a semblance of humanity in the midst of the conflict. Never has it been so hard to find the balance between protecting the lives of innocent Israelis threatened by terrorism and violence, and of Palestinian civilians living in those areas from where acts of terror are emanating. Never has it been so hard to find a way of ensuring security while recognizing the humanity of the Palestinians living under our control. To weigh the risk that striking at terror today,could increase their motivaion for a terrorist attack tomorrow.
These are questions with which Israel-its army and its civilians-grapple every day. And so we should. Just as we should feel the anguish at the loss of civilian lives among the Palestinians, which is also a chillul hashem, a desecration of God's name, notwithstanding the justice of our fight. And even if our answers to these questions are not always right, and indeed in many cases there are no right answers, we are asking the right questions. While our opponents ask how to kill as many civilians as possible, we ask how we can limit the loss to civilian life. While they ask how to inflame the passions of the Arab world, we ask how we might get back to the negotiating table. And ultimately, this is the reason that there can be no moral equivalence between our efforts to defend our civilians and the heinous attempts of Palestinian terorists to destroy them.
Can it be that so much of the world, which sees this moral equivalence, is wrong and we are right? Indeed it can. In recent weeks news in the Arab world has reported yet again age-old blood-libels against Jews, and, in the millions, reprinted the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion. These lies, across the generations, have led to countless pogroms and to the createst crime the world has known. But they also served as a reminder to every Jew that the world could be wrong. It could accuse Jews of inconceivable atrocities, and yet we would know, within ourselves, where the truth lies.
Today we see antisemitism spreading once again like a plague, with attacks throughout Europe raising painful spectres of the last century: in Antwerp, in Paris and in Lyon, in Tunis and in Strasbourg, in Kiev, as well as in Los Angeles and Toronto. It falls to us to bear witness, that ignoring such incidents will not make them go away. Governments that deny antisemitic attacks, or fail to address them, are only inviting antisemites to turn up the volume. Antisemitism, like terrorism, breeds in those places where there is no courage to confront it.
Today, when across the world we see a coalition of hatred which knows no borders, it becomes more improtant than ever to harness a coalition of civilizations, which also must know no borders. This coalition must include Palestinians and Israelis, Christians, Moslems and Jews-indeed every believer in the future of democracy and decency.
There is no alternative. Otherwise, everything turns back to darkness and chaos. The United States, with its moral force, must lead this coalition for democracy and peace against terror and hatred.
This is a coalition in which there is no neutrality. As President Bush has taught us, there are only the defenders of freedom, and those who are helping, either actively or passively, to undermine it. This is a vital cause-and a holy one.
The Torah portion of this week, Kdoshim, describes the biblical laws of kedusha, holiness. And the climax of these laws, the peak of holiness, is remarkable. It is the simple commandment "Ve'ahavta l'reacha kamocha, "Love your neighbor because he is as yourself." This is true holiness. We will never accept those who would pervert this holiness, who subscribe to a doctrine of 'Kill your neighbor with yourself.' Let us never forget, it is always the victim, neverthe murderers-never the shaheeds-who are the holy ones.
This fight seems overwhelming. A raging sea of violence seems ready to engulf us, and many of us have moments of despair. But our people, from its earliest days, have found ways of crossing such seas. I pray-and truly believe-that if we keep sight of the values for which we are fighting, we will cross this sea as well, and reach the land of which we have so long dreamed-the land of peace.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Well, what are your arguments?
- Afarat is not a terrorist and is not responsible for the murderous terror campaign unleashed against Israelis ?!?<hr></blockquote>
I've not seen good evidence that he has control over Hamas, Jihad or Al-aqsa, no. But I agree that he has not done nearly enough to stop the attacks. I don't think he is a good leader, but he is the only leader there is to negotiate with. Like it or not. And for the record, I think Sharon stinks too.
[quote]- It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because ? The land has been taken by force<hr></blockquote>
Yes, (we live in a modern world now, and the age of armed conquest of other peoples land should be over now), the people living there is beeing driven from their homes by force, and the UN has told Israel to withdraw. Several times.
[quote]
- It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because ? The land has been NOT been taken by force ? <hr></blockquote>
Well, it HAS been taken by force, but given the fact that not ALL palestinians where driven away, I think its only fair that they now SHOULD enjoy equal democratic rights as israeli citizens. (the sad fact is that they don't)
[quote]That is a brain-dead argument that ignores all historical facts.
<hr></blockquote>
What facts?
[quote]
Even in the UN, which is so rabidly anti-Israeli, this land is a no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally. And advocating the ethnic cleansing of Jews from their historical homeland in Judea and Samaria and denying their historical claims to their land IS racist! And MK Malchior will agree with that.<hr></blockquote>
Melchior is a wise man, I believe he would never agree that the land belonged to no one, or that anyone could just go live there if they wanted, especially not if they took land where others already had build their houses, or call people who advocate the removal of the settlements, for racists. That would include members of his own congreagation.
I also believe it is quite stupid to hide behind the arguments of another person. Stick by your own opinions and stop claiming to be argumenting on behalf of everyone else.
I started this thread as an attempt to be constructive and find solutions instead of digging trenches. I kept myself out of it but still it got side tracked.
Since most agreed more or less with my three points (pre 67 boarders/resolution 242, military actions and suicide bombs against civilians not acceptable) lets focus on that. We may not agree on how we ended up in the current situation or whos fault it is. But since we agree on the future lets talk about how to get there.
Up until the Saudi proposal all negotiations were more or less a null sum game (what one gains another loose). That what made the proposal a brilliant move because it added an external factor. If Israel and the palestinians agreed Israel would get the bonus of arab recognizion. Unfortunetly it was dead the day it was proposed because of a suiside bomb and Israels reaction to it (Israeli militare entry into PA areas). But the basic idea was good and even Sharon talk about using elements from it in future negotiations.
What could europe and US do now? What about adding to the saudi pool? Lets say more or less openly "If you get a peace agreement together you will get these benefits from us and there is no way you would get it without".
European countries have supported the PA with infrastructure, hospitals and schools aso. Lets double that and "offer" (one of those you can´t refuse) to help them to modernize their bureaucracy. And US should give equal help to Palestine. If we give the young palestinians a hope for the future and they see that have a say in their own state (which have been "the old mens" domain) the risk of them willing to blow themselves up will be much smaller. Perhaps UN (or as it would be US and Europe) should pay the compensation to the palestinians for their confiscated property in Israel. That would be one issue less to argue about between PA and Israel at the table.
In short:
1) Lets look at how we get where 90% of us agree we should go instead of talking about whos fault "it" was.
2) The arab nations gave Israel a carrot to negotiate. Lets us, Europe and US, give the PA their carrot (and also smaller ones to Israel) so both israel and PA is compelled to negotiate for real.
3) Perhaps EU and US should go together with the arab states and look at their proposal and make it a joint arab-EU-US-UN proposal to put ultimate pressure on them.
Anyone agrees or disagrees?
And Mika: Look at the title of this thread and look at the first page here. You are the only one disagreeing on all three of my original questions. I really wanted this to be more constructive than other Israel-Palestine threads we have had. Most of us agreed on the basis and I am trying to take it to a higher level now. If you have anything regarding the new questions that doesn´t reduce it to my old questions please share. But please don´t spoil my attempt to be constructive here. Its not because I disagree with you but since most of us have another goal than you I just think its time to discuss how we reach that goal instead of going over the same over and over and over again. Pretty pretty please with sugar on it?
Killa, there is nothing remotely racist in my reply. The statement is only addressing the settlements in the OT, it doesn't refer to jews in general at all.
Mika:
Well then, you?ll agree that there was nothing remotely racist about Hitler either. After all, he was only addressing Jewish ?settlements? in Europe. <hr></blockquote>
No, you see:
a) Hitler was into methodical, wholesale genocide of centuries-old communities of people who had every right to live in peace on land handed down through generations. And it wasn't about land anyway, it was about race.
b) The state of Israel has no right to the land it has taken because it has taken it, and continues to hold it, by force, in contravention of international law.
Do you see?
Furthermore, NEW IS TALKING ABOUT THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT OF A DEMOCRATIC, SECULAR STATE AND HAS SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE RELIGION, CULTURE OR ANCESTRY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED IT.
And that doesn't mean, not by any stretch of the imagination, that New is a Nazi. For God's sake!
If you read my post, you'd see that I don't have the article at hand, but I'll get it.
Yet, you are able to quote precisely all these facts and figures. I?m sure the Arab propaganda manuals came very handy on this occasion.
quote
It's no secret that the average israeli uses ten times as much water as the average palestinian.
That?s called farming. And Israel is well recognized for its pioneering farming methods. (10x less ?!?! Wow!). Yet, they managed to export 4,000,000 cases of fruit even back in 1937. I wonder what it?s now? 40,000,000 cases?
quote
In regard to Mechiors statement, I disagree with him on many point
The question is not whether you agree with him or not, moron. The question is whether he would agree with you. And from the speech he gave, that answer is clearly no.
quote
What facts?
Well, we?re back to square one. Aren?t we Irving?!
And Mika: Look at the title of this thread and look at the first page here. You are the only one disagreeing on all three of my original questions. I really wanted this to be more constructive than other Israel-Palestine threads we have had. Most of us agreed on the basis and I am trying to take it to a higher level now. If you have anything regarding the new questions that doesn´t reduce it to my old questions please share. But please don´t spoil my attempt to be constructive here. Its not because I disagree with you but since most of us have another goal than you I just think its time to discuss how we reach that goal instead of going over the same over and over and over again. Pretty pretty please with sugar on it?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I follow discussions on the Israel/Palestine conflict several places on the net and some things most people agree on whether they are liberals, conservatives or socialist:
1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).
2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.
3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
hmm, ? I?m kinda disappointed with you here ? (Should I have set my expectations lower?)
The ultimate goal must be a free Middle East!
Like I said before, this goes beyond Israel and the local Arab population. It?s a clash of civilizations and basic values. Israel needs to wage its war until the current Arab/Muslim civilization and its warped values disintegrate into the dustbin of history. Israel feels insecure in its neighborhood, not because it is not well armed, but because it is surrounded by hostile states where the warped and barbaric values of contemporary Islamic culture have now even turned against civilization itself.
Furthermore, It is absolutely scandalous the way the European governments and the European media has been whitewashing** Arab/Islamic culture to its domestic audience and at the same time vilified Israel and the United States. It also brings into serious question whether Europeans really internalized the universal values they say they are inspired by, or are just paying lip service to them. The fact that they so easily are willing to forsake these values for economic expediency, leads me to suspect the worst.
The real question we should be asking is what can we do as citizens and more significantly as consumers to reverse this destructive development. Rewarding it with talk of territorial concessions I think is the wrong way to go, and sends the worst possible message. Israelis have no problems living in a pluralistic, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious society. That is obvious. But Israelis are very aware of the demographic and socio-cultural realities in the region. They are extremely apprehensive about the danger of Islamic domination on them, and what a catastrophe will result if the current incarnation of Islam, prevalent in states surrounding them, is not transformed into something conforming to western universal values.
The only way out of this, as I see it, is for Israel to stall for time. The current system is artificially propped by oil exports. When this artificial support finally dries up, these societies will collapse under their own weight. Only then, as it happened in the Soviet Union, will there be a real chance for reform. I?m sorry to be so pessimistic, but knowing the lessons of history, this is the only thing I see that will lead to real change.
[quote]Israel needs to wage its war until the current Arab/Muslim civilization and its warped values disintegrate into the dustbin of history. Israel feels insecure in its neighborhood, not because it is not well armed, but because it is surrounded by hostile states where the warped barbaric values of contemporary Islam have now even turned against civilization itself.
<hr></blockquote>
Right! Your mum and dad and my mum and dad in my mum's kitchen! NOW!
Round One: Cooking
Round Two: Discussion of the state of the European novel
Round Three: Wine tasting
Round Four: Discussion of the interior decoration job
They'll SLAY 'em. Ha! My barbarian mum and dad! (Please make sure your parents leave when the evening is over, though, and do not occupy my parents' kitchen if they think they need a bigger one or they feel threatened by my mother's falafel. They will retaliate by cooking nice food for you all and trying to help you out.)
Sorry to be so facetious but you're making debate impossible here. You ignore arguments you can't counter, you dismiss inconvenient facts as 'propaganda', and when you're in a corner out come the accusations of anti-semitism. (Invoking Hitler above is a classic.) You even called New 'Irving' when the only racist revisionist here is you.
There are solutions to be found, and if you're not interested in debating what they might be please go away. Telling Anders you're disappointed in him when he tries to get the thread back on track: for goodness' sake! Start your own 'Racists With an iDisk' forum. Go away.
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
But I still think you and New should not talk so much about banning Mika and instead try discussing the issues ...yes I know the guy is a demagogue and aggressive but he does have a good point or two when he can restrain himself from using his Irving rhetoric .... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Comments
<strong>How else is anti-jew propaganda supposed to be spread fully if the jews keep putting their hook noses into everything? Gotta gas... err, ban em!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you accusing New of spreading anti- Jewish propaganda simply because he's questioning the policies of the Israeli government?
To equate criticism of Israel to a desire to gas Jewish people: well, that doesn't really help anyone. It's guaranteed to raise the temperature and it's going to make any debate impossible. And it's insulting to New, who's about the most articulate guy I've seen on this board.
And I, for one, would gladly see the back of that guy Mika. If I came out with all the Jewish stereotypes (tight-fisted, usurious, rahrahrah, you know the deal) I'd be off this board like a shot and quite right too. So no sympathy from this quarter, no sir.
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
When did I do this? I've never said such a thing. Not even remotely close.
[quote] Plus you were very comfortable when ?little cuss? used his racial slurs. In fact, you found them quite funny. <hr></blockquote>
I didn't find his jokes racist. And I did not take him serious. If my "LOL" offendend you, then I'm sorry.
[quote] How else is anti-jew propaganda supposed to be spread fully if the jews keep putting their hook noses into everything? Gotta gas... err, ban em! <hr></blockquote>
This is low. To tell you the truth, When I discussed israeli politics with Michael Melchior (Now a member of Knesset, and a minister in the israeli government) he didn't find my arguments racist or anti-jewish. I first met him when he was the rabbi in my cousines Bar Mitzva ok, so don't go there.
[quote] New, are you trying to get him banned? <hr></blockquote>
I posted this question to Jonathan in the "suggestions" forum:
"Can PC^KILLA be banned?
Personally I feel this has gone a bit too far. I think he is now deliberatly trying to ruin all the threads discussion the Middle East.
His recent "racism" accusations are way over the top, as is his lashing out at certain ethnic groups, and anyone disagreeing with him on these boards."
And I stick by this. I feel he is trying to ruin every discussion about this topic on these boards.
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
No Hassan i was referring to the suggestion that New was trying to get Mika banned. It's all about context!
Relax, he won't get banned. At least I won't insist on it.
I didn't find his jokes racist. And I did not take him serious. If my "LOL" offendend you, then I'm sorry.
Here is some of the stuff you found amusing:
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>i believe the proper slur is 'peckerwood'... or 'peck' fer short.
heheee, i remember the first time i introduced my friend Kiren(hindu) to my friend Abass(paki muslim)... they spent the evening glaring at each other with their father's eyes.
t'was cute, and frightfully stoopid...
cuss
p.s. here's yer homework peckerjew, tomorrow, yer to comb the chilly environs of peckerwood central(ie sota, wisco, illy etc. aka; twelfth circle of hell) to find a camel jockey... strike up a convo and find out if he's as bloodthirsty as jewry jewfeldt from Haifa thinks he is and then report yer findings here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is more. Topic: Violence in Israel/Palestine pg. 8-9
quote
Please show me one (1) quote, of any statement I've made, that can be classified as racsist. Your own list is getting quite long already.
You are a real piece of work.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because they've been living there since before Israel existed.
It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because:
A: The land has been taken by force, against UN resolutions.
B: Is held by force, again against UN resolutions.
C: The people who lived there, and owned the land have been removed with force, against international law.
This being said, Israel is practicing a policy of expelling arabs and have since 67 confiscated atleast 2000 ID-cards form jerusalem residents that don't "maintain ties with Jerusalem close enough". This is never done against jewish citizens.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And you just posted this!
You say that they have been living there since before Israel existed, but when I pressed on this issue, you failed to show that. (Violence in Israel/Palestine). Instead you referred to some made up numbers. My contention is that most of these people have been artificially infused into these areas during the years 1947-1967 when these areas were under the control of the Jordanians and Egyptians. The fact that all of the structures are relatively new supports this contention.
Also, Israel gained these areas through the exercise of self- defence against Jordan Egypt and Syria. And according to international law, she has every right to them. How all of the sudden these lands became "Palestinian" is beyond me.
Now, as regards the id cards. These id cards entitle the holders to Israeli social security funds. The cards have been withheld in cases where the cardholders have been identified as members of the PA apparatus or not living in Jerusalem. You can?t have it both ways. You are either part of Israeli society or you?re part of the PA. I still don't understand, why they receive these funds in first place, or what exactly did they do to deserve these id cards.
quote
Relax, he won't get banned. At least I won't insist on it.
How kind of you.
quote
When I discussed israeli politics with Michael Melchior (Now a member of Knesset, and a minister in the israeli government) he didn't find my arguments racist or anti-jewish. I first met him when he was the rabbi in my cousines Bar Mitzva ok, so don't go there.
Actually, I?ve met MK Melchior. And I?m sure if he would have spent as much time as I have with you, and read some of the garbage you?ve been so diligent in posting in these forums, he would have come to the same conclusions about you as I have.
mika.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
[quote]You are a real piece of work.
quote:
Originally posted by New:
It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because they've been living there since before Israel existed.
It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because:
A: The land has been taken by force, against UN resolutions.
B: Is held by force, again against UN resolutions.
C: The people who lived there, and owned the land have been removed with force, against international law.
This being said, Israel is practicing a policy of expelling arabs and have since 67 confiscated atleast 2000 ID-cards form jerusalem residents that don't "maintain ties with Jerusalem close enough". This is never done against jewish citizens.
And you just posted this! <hr></blockquote>
Do better.
His criticism is of the policies of a secular, democratic government; he's saying nothing about the genetic provenance of the electorate. Where is the racism?
[quote] Also, Israel gained these areas through the exercise of self- defence against Jordan Egypt and Syria. <hr></blockquote>
Pardon me, but how can a nation gain land through an act of self-defence?
[quote] And according to international law, she has every right to them. How all of the sudden these lands became "Palestinian" is beyond me. <hr></blockquote>
Martian international law, possibly. Terrestrial international law is quite specific on the matter. And the people living there deserved their own state long before the creation of Israel, for that matter.
[quote] My contention is that most of these people have been artificially infused into these areas during the years 1947-1967 when these areas were under the control of the Jordanians and Egyptians. The fact that all of the structures are relatively new supports this contention. <hr></blockquote>
Um... I'm looking at the dates, and as far as I can tell, they were still there first even if 'your contention' is correct. (Incidentally, oh forget it.)
[quote]Actually, I?ve met MK Melchior. <hr></blockquote>
Bollocks.
[quote] And I?m sure if he would have spent as much time as I have with you, and read some of the garbage you?ve been so diligent in posting in these forums, he would have come to the same conclusions about you as I have.
<hr></blockquote>
How convenient. Let's ask him, shall we?
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
As I said, I didn't find cuss's comments racist, as I didn't take then seriously, and as they didn't direct themselves at one group in particulare, but rather at everyone present, me included. ("libby hippi New")
But I see why you could be offended by him, but to blame me for it is a bit harsh, don't you think?
[quote]You say that they have been living there since before Israel existed, but when I pressed on this issue, you failed to show that. (Violence in Israel/Palestine). Instead you referred to some made up numbers. My contention is that most of these people have been artificially infused into these areas during the years 1947-1967 when these areas were under the control of the Jordanians and Egyptians. The fact that all of the structures are relatively new supports this contention.<hr></blockquote>
So you didn't read the old numbers of the National Geographic Magazine then?
These articles written as early as 1907, (I only read the 1934 article myself), describe in detail the life of the arabians living in the area, their industries, and the "new" imigration of jews that was starting to make an impact on palestine. Did you know for instance that there where 4000 cars and busses in palestine in 1934? Two main railroads? Streetlight in the main cities?
That 4000 tonns of palestinian olive oil soap was exported as far as south america that year? or 4 000 000 cases of fruit? (the article even spesifies that this is from arab crops only, whlie the new jewish crops were too young to have fruit in 1934).
Did you know that the museum of Art in Toledo exibited arabian glasswork from Hebron. In 1934 there where in addition to the the big cities 750 arabian towns and villages in Palestine, while the number of jewish settlements were nearly a 100.
And not even you can label this as propaganda.
[quote]Actually, I?ve met MK Melchior. And I?m sure if he would have spent as much time as I have with you, and read some of the garbage you?ve been so diligent in posting in these forums, he would have come to the same conclusions about you as I have.<hr></blockquote>
I suspect he would spend considerably more time than you, actually caring to pick up more than just one fraction of an argument here and there. Like Rashumon has done. It must be posible for you to refrain from calling me a racist and a brain-dead everytime you run out of arguments...
[quote]How convenient. Let's ask him, shall we?<hr></blockquote>
I doubt he'll have the time, being deputy foreign minister and all, but it would actually have been really cool...
So you didn't read the old numbers of the National Geographic Magazine then?
These articles written as early as 1907, (I only read the 1934 article myself), describe in detail the life of the arabians living in the area, their industries, and the "new" imigration of jews that was starting to make an impact on palestine. Did you know for instance that there where 4000 cars and busses in palestine in 1934? Two main railroads? Streetlight in the main cities?
That 4000 tonns of palestinian olive oil soap was exported as far as south america that year? or 4 000 000 cases of fruit? (the article even spesifies that this is from arab crops only, whlie the new jewish crops were too young to have fruit in 1934).
Did you know that the museum of Art in Toledo exibited arabian glasswork from Hebron. In 1934 there where in addition to the the big cities 750 arabian towns and villages in Palestine, while the number of jewish settlements were nearly a 100.
And not even you can label this as propaganda.
Well, why don?t you scan the article(s) and make them available on your iDisk. I?d really like to see how they arrived at these numbers. 750 Arab towns and villages ? this is going to be interesting. Especially since the area was a practical dessert before Israel built the national water carrier in the 50?s to divert water from the Kinneret.
quote
Killa, there is nothing remotely racist in my reply. The statement is only adressing the settlements in the OT, it doesn't refer to jews in general at all.
Well then, you?ll agree that there was nothing remotely racist about Hitler either. After all, he was only addressing Jewish ?settlements? in Europe.
quote
As I said, I didn't find cuss's comments racist, as I didn't take then seriously, and as they didn't direct themselves at one group in particulare, but rather at everyone present, me included. ("libby hippi New")
Hmm, ? Ok. Let?s catalog some of the racial slurs you found ?non-racist? and perfectly acceptable, even amusing.
Jewboys
Raghead
Peckerwoods
paki
peckerjew
camel jockey
jewry jewfeldt
heeb
haifaheeb
i don't fiddle with yids
i know what i said nig
yo yiddy
yer money-grubbin' momma
Curlylocks the diamond merchant
Heebie
keep yer head down heeb
etc.
quote
I doubt he'll have the time, being deputy foreign minister and all, but it would actually have been really cool...
I?ll let people draw their own conclusions about what MK Melchior will draw from your arguments including those supporting Arafat, and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
<a href="http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0lk00"; target="_blank">http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0lk00</a>;
Remarks of Deputy Foreign Minister Rabbi Michael Melchior at Israel Solidarity Rally
Washington, DC, April 15, 2002
The war which we the people of Israel are fighting, this war which has been forced upon us, is a crucial war, not just for Israel, but for the world at large.
This is a war for our homes and our families, for the basic right to live without fear in our land, without terrorists seeking to attack our future, our children in pizza shops and discotheques, and our freedom-at a Pesach Seder. But it is also more than that: it is a war for civilization.
What is civilization? Civilization is the recognition that certain values-human life, truth, tolerance, love of parents for children-are sacrosanct, and that no goal or political objective can justify violating them. But today we face an enemy that has delared civilization its enemy. And there is no value, however sacred, that the scourge of fundamentalist terrorism has not trampled underfoot.
Ambulances which sould protect the sick, transport terrorists and munitions; mosques and churches, places of worship and contemplation, become fortresses for terrorist killers who shoot from their windows; a UN conference in Durban intended to combat racism and slavery not only does nothing to help the oppressed, but hosts the most antisemitic diatribes since the second world war; and Palestinian parents who have lost one child to the madness of suicide bombing, express the wish that their other children will follow suit.
The dark forces of national and religious fundamentalism which have been unleashed are not limited to our region. This is a vital struggle, not just for Israel, but for free countries across the world. Palestinian terrorism already claims the copyright on other heinous acts that have spread throughout areas of conflict including hijackings, and the placing of children in the line of fire. There is no doubt that if this fundamentalist suicidal terrorism is not defeated-and decisively-we will see it threatening free societies around the world.
We did not choose to fight this dreadful war. To the contrary, the last Israeli Government, of which I was a member, made far-reaching peace proposals, recognizing that without secure borders for the Palestinians, there can be no secure borders for Israel; without dignity for the Palestinian people there can be no true dignity for Israelis; and without peace for the Palestinians, there can be none for Israel. And these truths hold today. We are not fighting the Palestinian people. We continue to respect their aspirations to independence. And still today, if the Palestinian leadership is ready to choose peace and progress, they will find that no people wants peace, or is prepared to sacrifice more for it, than Israel.
But that is not the leadership we have seen. We have seen a leadership which, at the peak of the peace process, not only rejected Israel's proposals, but responded with a wave of brutal violence that has continued and escalated to this day. We have seen a leader who funds acts of terror and talks of throwing the Jews into the sea, while his wife, this week, has declared her ambition for her child to grow up to become a suicide bomber. So, while we still hope for peace, we are fighting a war that has given us no choice.
It is crucial that we win this war. But it is just as crucial how we win. In ancient times the Children of Israel would carry the holy ark containing the Ten Commandments in front of them into battle as a reminder that, however bloody the fighting, there were rules and values that still must be respected. Today, in a battle in which our enemy is prepared to stoop to any level, we have to respect our values while still fighting for them. This is the harderst challenge: to maintain a semblance of humanity in the midst of the conflict. Never has it been so hard to find the balance between protecting the lives of innocent Israelis threatened by terrorism and violence, and of Palestinian civilians living in those areas from where acts of terror are emanating. Never has it been so hard to find a way of ensuring security while recognizing the humanity of the Palestinians living under our control. To weigh the risk that striking at terror today,could increase their motivaion for a terrorist attack tomorrow.
These are questions with which Israel-its army and its civilians-grapple every day. And so we should. Just as we should feel the anguish at the loss of civilian lives among the Palestinians, which is also a chillul hashem, a desecration of God's name, notwithstanding the justice of our fight. And even if our answers to these questions are not always right, and indeed in many cases there are no right answers, we are asking the right questions. While our opponents ask how to kill as many civilians as possible, we ask how we can limit the loss to civilian life. While they ask how to inflame the passions of the Arab world, we ask how we might get back to the negotiating table. And ultimately, this is the reason that there can be no moral equivalence between our efforts to defend our civilians and the heinous attempts of Palestinian terorists to destroy them.
Can it be that so much of the world, which sees this moral equivalence, is wrong and we are right? Indeed it can. In recent weeks news in the Arab world has reported yet again age-old blood-libels against Jews, and, in the millions, reprinted the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion. These lies, across the generations, have led to countless pogroms and to the createst crime the world has known. But they also served as a reminder to every Jew that the world could be wrong. It could accuse Jews of inconceivable atrocities, and yet we would know, within ourselves, where the truth lies.
Today we see antisemitism spreading once again like a plague, with attacks throughout Europe raising painful spectres of the last century: in Antwerp, in Paris and in Lyon, in Tunis and in Strasbourg, in Kiev, as well as in Los Angeles and Toronto. It falls to us to bear witness, that ignoring such incidents will not make them go away. Governments that deny antisemitic attacks, or fail to address them, are only inviting antisemites to turn up the volume. Antisemitism, like terrorism, breeds in those places where there is no courage to confront it.
Today, when across the world we see a coalition of hatred which knows no borders, it becomes more improtant than ever to harness a coalition of civilizations, which also must know no borders. This coalition must include Palestinians and Israelis, Christians, Moslems and Jews-indeed every believer in the future of democracy and decency.
There is no alternative. Otherwise, everything turns back to darkness and chaos. The United States, with its moral force, must lead this coalition for democracy and peace against terror and hatred.
This is a coalition in which there is no neutrality. As President Bush has taught us, there are only the defenders of freedom, and those who are helping, either actively or passively, to undermine it. This is a vital cause-and a holy one.
The Torah portion of this week, Kdoshim, describes the biblical laws of kedusha, holiness. And the climax of these laws, the peak of holiness, is remarkable. It is the simple commandment "Ve'ahavta l'reacha kamocha, "Love your neighbor because he is as yourself." This is true holiness. We will never accept those who would pervert this holiness, who subscribe to a doctrine of 'Kill your neighbor with yourself.' Let us never forget, it is always the victim, neverthe murderers-never the shaheeds-who are the holy ones.
This fight seems overwhelming. A raging sea of violence seems ready to engulf us, and many of us have moments of despair. But our people, from its earliest days, have found ways of crossing such seas. I pray-and truly believe-that if we keep sight of the values for which we are fighting, we will cross this sea as well, and reach the land of which we have so long dreamed-the land of peace.
quote
It must be posible for you to refrain from calling me a racist and a brain-dead everytime you run out of arguments?
Well, what are your arguments?
] Afarat is not a terrorist and is not responsible for the murderous terror campaign unleashed against Israelis.
] It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because ? The land has been taken by force ?
] It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because ? The land has been NOT been taken by force ?
These are a brain-dead arguments that ignore all historical facts.
Even in the UN, which is so rabidly anti-Israeli, this land is a no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally. And advocating the ethnic cleansing of Jews from their historical homeland in Judea and Samaria and denying their historical claims to their land IS racist! And MK Melchior will agree with that.
mika.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
I still agree that region sucks.
If you read my post, you'd see that I don't have the article at hand, but I'll get it. You can also dig it up yourself, I've provided all the details. It's no secret that the average israeli uses ten times as much water as the average palestinian. It is also no secret that the bast farmeland in Gaza and the West Bank is the land beeing settled. Much farmeland has also been laid waste since the occupation.
[quote]Killa, there is nothing remotely racist in my reply. The statement is only adressing the settlements in the OT, it doesn't refer to jews in general at all.
Well then, you?ll agree that there was nothing remotely racist about Hitler either. After all, he was only addressing Jewish ?settlements? in Europe.
<hr></blockquote>
Your an asshole, the two situations could not be more remote. If you want to draw analogys back to nazi-gremany, then read up on "lebensraum". jerk.
[quote]Hmm, ? Ok. Let?s catalog some of the racial slurs you found ?non-racist? and perfectly acceptable, even amusing.
Jewboys
Raghead
Peckerwoods
paki
peckerjew
camel jockey
jewry jewfeldt
heeb
haifaheeb
i don't fiddle with yids
i know what i said nig
yo yiddy
yer money-grubbin' momma
Curlylocks the diamond merchant
Heebie
keep yer head down heeb
<hr></blockquote>
happily clipping away the parts you don't like again eh?
I also wrote this:
But I see why you could be offended by him, but to blame me for it is a bit harsh, don't you think? And still you seem to want to hold me responsible for his comments. And your replys to him? tasteless at best.
[quote]
I?ll let people draw their own conclusions about what MK Melchior will draw from your arguments including those supporting Arafat, and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.<hr></blockquote>
Will you cut out that ethnic cleansing s**t? I've never said this. Expelling the arabs from their homes is much closer to ethnic cleansing.
In regard to Mechiors statement, I disagree with him on many point, but I still find positive things here that are far better than anything comming from you.
(I've highlighted those parts)
[quote]
Remarks of Deputy Foreign Minister Rabbi Michael Melchior at Israel Solidarity Rally
Washington, DC, April 15, 2002
The war which we the people of Israel are fighting, this war which has been forced upon us, is a crucial war, not just for Israel, but for the world at large.
This is a war for our homes and our families, for the basic right to live without fear in our land, without terrorists seeking to attack our future, our children in pizza shops and discotheques, and our freedom-at a Pesach Seder. But it is also more than that: it is a war for civilization.
What is civilization? Civilization is the recognition that certain values-human life, truth, tolerance, love of parents for children-are sacrosanct, and that no goal or political objective can justify violating them. But today we face an enemy that has delared civilization its enemy. And there is no value, however sacred, that the scourge of fundamentalist terrorism has not trampled underfoot.
Ambulances which sould protect the sick, transport terrorists and munitions; mosques and churches, places of worship and contemplation, become fortresses for terrorist killers who shoot from their windows; a UN conference in Durban intended to combat racism and slavery not only does nothing to help the oppressed, but hosts the most antisemitic diatribes since the second world war; and Palestinian parents who have lost one child to the madness of suicide bombing, express the wish that their other children will follow suit.
The dark forces of national and religious fundamentalism which have been unleashed are not limited to our region. This is a vital struggle, not just for Israel, but for free countries across the world. Palestinian terrorism already claims the copyright on other heinous acts that have spread throughout areas of conflict including hijackings, and the placing of children in the line of fire. There is no doubt that if this fundamentalist suicidal terrorism is not defeated-and decisively-we will see it threatening free societies around the world.
We did not choose to fight this dreadful war. To the contrary, the last Israeli Government, of which I was a member, made far-reaching peace proposals, recognizing that without secure borders for the Palestinians, there can be no secure borders for Israel; without dignity for the Palestinian people there can be no true dignity for Israelis; and without peace for the Palestinians, there can be none for Israel. And these truths hold today. We are not fighting the Palestinian people. We continue to respect their aspirations to independence. And still today, if the Palestinian leadership is ready to choose peace and progress, they will find that no people wants peace, or is prepared to sacrifice more for it, than Israel.
But that is not the leadership we have seen. We have seen a leadership which, at the peak of the peace process, not only rejected Israel's proposals, but responded with a wave of brutal violence that has continued and escalated to this day. We have seen a leader who funds acts of terror and talks of throwing the Jews into the sea, while his wife, this week, has declared her ambition for her child to grow up to become a suicide bomber. So, while we still hope for peace, we are fighting a war that has given us no choice.
It is crucial that we win this war. But it is just as crucial how we win. In ancient times the Children of Israel would carry the holy ark containing the Ten Commandments in front of them into battle as a reminder that, however bloody the fighting, there were rules and values that still must be respected. Today, in a battle in which our enemy is prepared to stoop to any level, we have to respect our values while still fighting for them. This is the harderst challenge: to maintain a semblance of humanity in the midst of the conflict. Never has it been so hard to find the balance between protecting the lives of innocent Israelis threatened by terrorism and violence, and of Palestinian civilians living in those areas from where acts of terror are emanating. Never has it been so hard to find a way of ensuring security while recognizing the humanity of the Palestinians living under our control. To weigh the risk that striking at terror today,could increase their motivaion for a terrorist attack tomorrow.
These are questions with which Israel-its army and its civilians-grapple every day. And so we should. Just as we should feel the anguish at the loss of civilian lives among the Palestinians, which is also a chillul hashem, a desecration of God's name, notwithstanding the justice of our fight. And even if our answers to these questions are not always right, and indeed in many cases there are no right answers, we are asking the right questions. While our opponents ask how to kill as many civilians as possible, we ask how we can limit the loss to civilian life. While they ask how to inflame the passions of the Arab world, we ask how we might get back to the negotiating table. And ultimately, this is the reason that there can be no moral equivalence between our efforts to defend our civilians and the heinous attempts of Palestinian terorists to destroy them.
Can it be that so much of the world, which sees this moral equivalence, is wrong and we are right? Indeed it can. In recent weeks news in the Arab world has reported yet again age-old blood-libels against Jews, and, in the millions, reprinted the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion. These lies, across the generations, have led to countless pogroms and to the createst crime the world has known. But they also served as a reminder to every Jew that the world could be wrong. It could accuse Jews of inconceivable atrocities, and yet we would know, within ourselves, where the truth lies.
Today we see antisemitism spreading once again like a plague, with attacks throughout Europe raising painful spectres of the last century: in Antwerp, in Paris and in Lyon, in Tunis and in Strasbourg, in Kiev, as well as in Los Angeles and Toronto. It falls to us to bear witness, that ignoring such incidents will not make them go away. Governments that deny antisemitic attacks, or fail to address them, are only inviting antisemites to turn up the volume. Antisemitism, like terrorism, breeds in those places where there is no courage to confront it.
Today, when across the world we see a coalition of hatred which knows no borders, it becomes more improtant than ever to harness a coalition of civilizations, which also must know no borders. This coalition must include Palestinians and Israelis, Christians, Moslems and Jews-indeed every believer in the future of democracy and decency.
There is no alternative. Otherwise, everything turns back to darkness and chaos. The United States, with its moral force, must lead this coalition for democracy and peace against terror and hatred.
This is a coalition in which there is no neutrality. As President Bush has taught us, there are only the defenders of freedom, and those who are helping, either actively or passively, to undermine it. This is a vital cause-and a holy one.
The Torah portion of this week, Kdoshim, describes the biblical laws of kedusha, holiness. And the climax of these laws, the peak of holiness, is remarkable. It is the simple commandment "Ve'ahavta l'reacha kamocha, "Love your neighbor because he is as yourself." This is true holiness. We will never accept those who would pervert this holiness, who subscribe to a doctrine of 'Kill your neighbor with yourself.' Let us never forget, it is always the victim, neverthe murderers-never the shaheeds-who are the holy ones.
This fight seems overwhelming. A raging sea of violence seems ready to engulf us, and many of us have moments of despair. But our people, from its earliest days, have found ways of crossing such seas. I pray-and truly believe-that if we keep sight of the values for which we are fighting, we will cross this sea as well, and reach the land of which we have so long dreamed-the land of peace.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Well, what are your arguments?
- Afarat is not a terrorist and is not responsible for the murderous terror campaign unleashed against Israelis ?!?<hr></blockquote>
I've not seen good evidence that he has control over Hamas, Jihad or Al-aqsa, no. But I agree that he has not done nearly enough to stop the attacks. I don't think he is a good leader, but he is the only leader there is to negotiate with. Like it or not. And for the record, I think Sharon stinks too.
[quote]- It's not OK for the settlers to live in Palestine because ? The land has been taken by force<hr></blockquote>
Yes, (we live in a modern world now, and the age of armed conquest of other peoples land should be over now), the people living there is beeing driven from their homes by force, and the UN has told Israel to withdraw. Several times.
[quote]
- It's OK for palestinians to live in Israel because ? The land has been NOT been taken by force ? <hr></blockquote>
Well, it HAS been taken by force, but given the fact that not ALL palestinians where driven away, I think its only fair that they now SHOULD enjoy equal democratic rights as israeli citizens. (the sad fact is that they don't)
[quote]That is a brain-dead argument that ignores all historical facts.
<hr></blockquote>
What facts?
[quote]
Even in the UN, which is so rabidly anti-Israeli, this land is a no mans land. It belongs to no one at the moment. Either all that live there are there illegally, or none living there are there illegally. And advocating the ethnic cleansing of Jews from their historical homeland in Judea and Samaria and denying their historical claims to their land IS racist! And MK Malchior will agree with that.<hr></blockquote>
Melchior is a wise man, I believe he would never agree that the land belonged to no one, or that anyone could just go live there if they wanted, especially not if they took land where others already had build their houses, or call people who advocate the removal of the settlements, for racists. That would include members of his own congreagation.
I also believe it is quite stupid to hide behind the arguments of another person. Stick by your own opinions and stop claiming to be argumenting on behalf of everyone else.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
Since most agreed more or less with my three points (pre 67 boarders/resolution 242, military actions and suicide bombs against civilians not acceptable) lets focus on that. We may not agree on how we ended up in the current situation or whos fault it is. But since we agree on the future lets talk about how to get there.
Up until the Saudi proposal all negotiations were more or less a null sum game (what one gains another loose). That what made the proposal a brilliant move because it added an external factor. If Israel and the palestinians agreed Israel would get the bonus of arab recognizion. Unfortunetly it was dead the day it was proposed because of a suiside bomb and Israels reaction to it (Israeli militare entry into PA areas). But the basic idea was good and even Sharon talk about using elements from it in future negotiations.
What could europe and US do now? What about adding to the saudi pool? Lets say more or less openly "If you get a peace agreement together you will get these benefits from us and there is no way you would get it without".
European countries have supported the PA with infrastructure, hospitals and schools aso. Lets double that and "offer" (one of those you can´t refuse) to help them to modernize their bureaucracy. And US should give equal help to Palestine. If we give the young palestinians a hope for the future and they see that have a say in their own state (which have been "the old mens" domain) the risk of them willing to blow themselves up will be much smaller. Perhaps UN (or as it would be US and Europe) should pay the compensation to the palestinians for their confiscated property in Israel. That would be one issue less to argue about between PA and Israel at the table.
In short:
1) Lets look at how we get where 90% of us agree we should go instead of talking about whos fault "it" was.
2) The arab nations gave Israel a carrot to negotiate. Lets us, Europe and US, give the PA their carrot (and also smaller ones to Israel) so both israel and PA is compelled to negotiate for real.
3) Perhaps EU and US should go together with the arab states and look at their proposal and make it a joint arab-EU-US-UN proposal to put ultimate pressure on them.
Anyone agrees or disagrees?
And Mika: Look at the title of this thread and look at the first page here. You are the only one disagreeing on all three of my original questions. I really wanted this to be more constructive than other Israel-Palestine threads we have had. Most of us agreed on the basis and I am trying to take it to a higher level now. If you have anything regarding the new questions that doesn´t reduce it to my old questions please share. But please don´t spoil my attempt to be constructive here. Its not because I disagree with you but since most of us have another goal than you I just think its time to discuss how we reach that goal instead of going over the same over and over and over again. Pretty pretty please with sugar on it?
[quote]
New:
Killa, there is nothing remotely racist in my reply. The statement is only addressing the settlements in the OT, it doesn't refer to jews in general at all.
Mika:
Well then, you?ll agree that there was nothing remotely racist about Hitler either. After all, he was only addressing Jewish ?settlements? in Europe. <hr></blockquote>
No, you see:
a) Hitler was into methodical, wholesale genocide of centuries-old communities of people who had every right to live in peace on land handed down through generations. And it wasn't about land anyway, it was about race.
b) The state of Israel has no right to the land it has taken because it has taken it, and continues to hold it, by force, in contravention of international law.
Do you see?
Furthermore, NEW IS TALKING ABOUT THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT OF A DEMOCRATIC, SECULAR STATE AND HAS SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE RELIGION, CULTURE OR ANCESTRY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED IT.
And that doesn't mean, not by any stretch of the imagination, that New is a Nazi. For God's sake!
If you read my post, you'd see that I don't have the article at hand, but I'll get it.
Yet, you are able to quote precisely all these facts and figures. I?m sure the Arab propaganda manuals came very handy on this occasion.
quote
It's no secret that the average israeli uses ten times as much water as the average palestinian.
That?s called farming. And Israel is well recognized for its pioneering farming methods. (10x less ?!?! Wow!). Yet, they managed to export 4,000,000 cases of fruit even back in 1937. I wonder what it?s now? 40,000,000 cases?
quote
In regard to Mechiors statement, I disagree with him on many point
The question is not whether you agree with him or not, moron. The question is whether he would agree with you. And from the speech he gave, that answer is clearly no.
quote
What facts?
Well, we?re back to square one. Aren?t we Irving?!
mika.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
And no it's not fun because you're Jewish, Mika. It's fun because you're stupid.
SORRY! Sorry. My, er, bad.
On with the thread. Solutions to be found and all of that.
I'm not taking the piss. They're really good.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>And Shanny, why are you here? Need a hug?
Nah, just trying to liven things up around here. That's my job.
<strong>
And Mika: Look at the title of this thread and look at the first page here. You are the only one disagreeing on all three of my original questions. I really wanted this to be more constructive than other Israel-Palestine threads we have had. Most of us agreed on the basis and I am trying to take it to a higher level now. If you have anything regarding the new questions that doesn´t reduce it to my old questions please share. But please don´t spoil my attempt to be constructive here. Its not because I disagree with you but since most of us have another goal than you I just think its time to discuss how we reach that goal instead of going over the same over and over and over again. Pretty pretty please with sugar on it?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I follow discussions on the Israel/Palestine conflict several places on the net and some things most people agree on whether they are liberals, conservatives or socialist:
1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).
2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.
3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
hmm, ? I?m kinda disappointed with you here ? (Should I have set my expectations lower?)
The ultimate goal must be a free Middle East!
Like I said before, this goes beyond Israel and the local Arab population. It?s a clash of civilizations and basic values. Israel needs to wage its war until the current Arab/Muslim civilization and its warped values disintegrate into the dustbin of history. Israel feels insecure in its neighborhood, not because it is not well armed, but because it is surrounded by hostile states where the warped and barbaric values of contemporary Islamic culture have now even turned against civilization itself.
Furthermore, It is absolutely scandalous the way the European governments and the European media has been whitewashing** Arab/Islamic culture to its domestic audience and at the same time vilified Israel and the United States. It also brings into serious question whether Europeans really internalized the universal values they say they are inspired by, or are just paying lip service to them. The fact that they so easily are willing to forsake these values for economic expediency, leads me to suspect the worst.
The real question we should be asking is what can we do as citizens and more significantly as consumers to reverse this destructive development. Rewarding it with talk of territorial concessions I think is the wrong way to go, and sends the worst possible message. Israelis have no problems living in a pluralistic, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious society. That is obvious. But Israelis are very aware of the demographic and socio-cultural realities in the region. They are extremely apprehensive about the danger of Islamic domination on them, and what a catastrophe will result if the current incarnation of Islam, prevalent in states surrounding them, is not transformed into something conforming to western universal values.
The only way out of this, as I see it, is for Israel to stall for time. The current system is artificially propped by oil exports. When this artificial support finally dries up, these societies will collapse under their own weight. Only then, as it happened in the Soviet Union, will there be a real chance for reform. I?m sorry to be so pessimistic, but knowing the lessons of history, this is the only thing I see that will lead to real change.
mika.
**
<a href="http://www.islamfortoday.com/saudi01.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.islamfortoday.com/saudi01.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/archive/200203/FOR20020318a.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/archive/200203/FOR20020318a.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-3/saudi-arabia-religious-police.html"; target="_blank">http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-3/saudi-arabia-religious-police.html</a>;
and now read this ?
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1867000/1867039.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1867000/1867039.stm</a>;
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<hr></blockquote>
Right! Your mum and dad and my mum and dad in my mum's kitchen! NOW!
Round One: Cooking
Round Two: Discussion of the state of the European novel
Round Three: Wine tasting
Round Four: Discussion of the interior decoration job
They'll SLAY 'em. Ha! My barbarian mum and dad! (Please make sure your parents leave when the evening is over, though, and do not occupy my parents' kitchen if they think they need a bigger one or they feel threatened by my mother's falafel. They will retaliate by cooking nice food for you all and trying to help you out.)
Sorry to be so facetious but you're making debate impossible here. You ignore arguments you can't counter, you dismiss inconvenient facts as 'propaganda', and when you're in a corner out come the accusations of anti-semitism. (Invoking Hitler above is a classic.) You even called New 'Irving' when the only racist revisionist here is you.
There are solutions to be found, and if you're not interested in debating what they might be please go away. Telling Anders you're disappointed in him when he tries to get the thread back on track: for goodness' sake! Start your own 'Racists With an iDisk' forum. Go away.
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
i'd love to try your mums Falafel ... yum !
But I still think you and New should not talk so much about banning Mika and instead try discussing the issues ...yes I know the guy is a demagogue and aggressive but he does have a good point or two when he can restrain himself from using his Irving rhetoric .... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />