and is useless for me for the reasons I outlined in a previous post because the issue at hand will directly affect me.
i also have a 3gs and hold it in my left hand for phone calls (when not using the headphones, which i vastly prefer to use). i carry mine in a soft "foofcase", but apart from a screen protector it is "naked" when in use. for the iPhone 4, i feel a case, if you actually needed one (which isn't certain by any means) isn't too big a compromise considering how "non-bulky" they can be.
when you mention "should i take a risk" on the 4, what immediately came into mind was the stat of there being far fewer returns of 4's compared to 3gs' in the same period. it seems there was more "risk" with the 3gs.
IF you were so unlucky as to have meaningful issues with a 4, i doubt that you would be left without a phone. after a call to applecare and making an appointment at the nearest apple store, i had my 3gs replaced on the spot (and for free) for a superficial crack in the rear case. worst case scenario is you take it back for a complete refund and go back to your 3gs. that's how i feel about it anyway. good luck with your decision.
How did "My iPhone drops calls when I hold it in my left hand" evolve into this DEATH GRIP debacle?
Surely DEATH GRIP isn't the the reason for people's original complaints? Why do people go on about DEATH GRIP so much when it obviously isn't the source of the hysteria.
Apple has done well to deflect attention away from the real issue.
speculating the existence of hidden masses of dis-satisfied iPhone users is fact?
As I have said to others, you can choose to believe what you want, but I believe in this case you are wrong. I can't provide you with hard data, but all you can provide is compaints to Apple, Steve didn't mention the people that complained to their providers. At the end of the day, human nature is human nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen
apple is not perfect, but oh dear.
Are you saying the way Apple handled this issue was not perfect, and it won't put people off purchasing items off them again? Try to remember in customer servers departments, generally a rule is if someone has a bad experience with something, they will tell 10 people, if they have a good experience they may tell 1 person. Saying everyone does it so it's not my fault is a good example of poor customer service.
As I said, i don't own any Android devices, so why would I post there? I like to troll Apple fansites and I think I might have finally found something to justify it, so I'll ride it for all it's worth, even if I'm wrong, hence why I am here.
Even still, Apple survived a media blitz that would have brought any other phone manufacturer to its knees.
The other phone companies HOPE that they will have problems like this because it will mean that they are selling millions of 1 phone model in a few weeks.
Apple isn't trying to draw them into the debacle, they're demonstrating there shouldn't be a debacle that all phones designers have challenges and the iPhone isn't unique in its recommended way of holding it ( in weak signal areas).
Yes but while that may be true with sme other companies, these other companies have many different models where Apple only has one. I've worked in the entertainment business for years and
I presently have the 3G model. This phone compared to more than any other phone my wife and I have owned drops more calls then most and has a terible tine going from edge to 3G
?,Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
Your post points out the very danger apple faces. "Unintended acceleration" WAS shown to occur with other car brands. And the accusers ended up highly suspect: one blamed the devil; one was angry at toyo over a prior gripe; one sold her car without ever mentioning any accel problem; in one of the most spectacular recorded cases, police couldn't find evidence the driver had actually been pressing on the brake despite instructions given him. Heck, testing couldn't even replicate the problems, leaving all the cases suspect as incidents of operator error or malicious fraud.
But look how you and most of the public remember it.
Many studies have shown that about 52% of the American population is so staggeringly stupid, they can't pick out their own home state on a map.
I always keep this in mind when a "big issue" arises on a forum. You just have to let those who can't find their own ******* blow off their worthless uninformed opinion, and then when the dust settles, the rest of us can move forward and forget about it.
"Whereas Apple claimed over 0.55 percent of customers called AppleCare with reception-related complaints, HTC's Eric Lin told Pocket-lint the Droid Eris technical support rate was 0.016 percent, nearly thirty-four times lower"
Perhaps .55% is nothing to crow about? Just putting it out there. A number by itself may sound impressive but put into context and it takes on a different meaning altogether. I know nothing of the general or accepted rate of reception related issues but these two data points are quite disparate.
I call BS. Almost no consumer device is going to have a 0.016% level of customer support calls. Heck, toasters probably get that many calls. Maybe they only had that many calls in the first hour after its launch.
By most reports, 0.55% complaints is a very reasonable level. If you don't like that figure, look at the return rate - less than 1/3 the return rate of the 3GS - which is highly regarded as one of the best phones on the market. This figure IS far lower than the rest of the industry average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
As I have said to others, you can choose to believe what you want, but I believe in this case you are wrong. I can't provide you with hard data, but all you can provide is compaints to Apple, Steve didn't mention the people that complained to their providers. At the end of the day, human nature is human nature..
So, IOW, your fantasies don't agree with the facts, so we're supposed to believe your fantasies?
What about the return rates? If you are correct, why is the return rate less than 1/3 that of the 3GS at the same time point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly
Then, what is the point of the endless posting of the same links? What do they prove? That Nokia is clever enough to put their antennas out of the reach of physical contact?
Because Nokia and RIM have the same problem - even WITH their antennas not being touched. And both made the mistake of going public with the claim that their phones don't have the problem. That was a huge, boneheaded mistake. If they had kept their mouths shut, the broad perception would have been that this was an Apple problem (with some percentage of people realizing that it was an industry-wide problem). By opening their mouths and making a claim that their phones aren't affected, they opened themselves to ridicule - which will come back to bite them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson
Unfortunately it's not quite that easy. For the signal loss due to de-tuning of the antenna, yes, some sort of coating would be part of a solution, though a coating over the gap between the two would actually act as a capacitor, which is not a block to RF (it is to dc), so that in itself would de-tune the antenna (you can actually use a capacitor in your antenna circuit to change it's resonant frequency and tune it in). I would imagine they could make some tweaks inside in conjunction to a coating which would alleviate that however. It's 10 years since I did any work on antennas and to be honest my memory is a bit rusty.
What a clear coating would not help is the attenuating effect of the proximity of your hand. The attenuating effect of your hand is nothing to do with whether or not there is an insulator between your hand and the antenna, more it is to do with the fact that there is something that is mostly water (remember, we're about 70% water) which will happily soak up RF energy and lower the received (and transmitted) signal. The only way around that is to move the antenna away from your hand, which the bumper will do a bit, and moving the antenna inside would do.
However, from what I've seen (and I admit, I don't have an iPhone 4 to play with, so I'm basing this off the videos I've seen), I suspect this problem is being caused almost entirely by de-tuning, and a coating, coupled with some internal tweaks would resolve it. I'm basing that on the idea that since a bumper does seem to solve the problem, and it only moves your hand a couple of mm away from the antenna, it's not really changing the attenuating effect of your hand, so the fact that it fixes the problem would point to de-tuning being the root cause).
That said, a clear coating is not exactly straightforward, given it will be going on an area of the phone that is handled/rubbed a lot, and would be sensitive to rubbing off. I'm not saying there is not such a coating out there, and there might be something really easy (I'm not a materials engineer), but I would think it's actually a bit of a challenge.
Your conclusion is not as simple as it looks. You are correct that if you add a thin polymer coating to the antenna that you'd have to change the internals but that would be quite simple. You could then have a phone with a coating that works as well as the 'naked' phone.
HOWEVER, to get a detuning effect, you don't have to actually touch the antenna. If you get close to it, you can get the same detuning (if you're old enough to remember rabbit ear TV antennas, you'd remember that you could change the signal just by standing near the antenna without touching it). Even with a coating, if you hold the phone in your hand, you could still detune the antenna. Probably not as much, but still some. You're still going to get capacitance effects, even through a thin polymer coating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
See you would fall in that 0.55% figure that jobs pulled out. You would be suprised to see the actual number of people that complain about an issue they have.
Maybe we would. Why don't you provide the figures so we can find out if they're surprising?
Oh, you can't - because you're simply making wild guesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
Maybe Apple should have kept their mouths shut and not dragged others into their issue, after all it is the iPhone 4 that the iPhone users are having the issue with, not the other brands.
And THAT is why people keep posting links to all the Youtube videos and Apple's testing showing that other phones experience the same effect.
It's funny how you can jump all over Apple and iPhone fans by claiming that they'll ignore evidence of a problem and deny that the problem exists --- yet when extensive evidence is presented that the same thing occurs with other phones, you simply deny it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiced
Did anyone is as sensitive as I'm when using cell phones? My head gets heated up after good 5 minutes of use....guess what phones? Many models of Nokia, Ericsson and Sony Ericssion. Make another guess.....all these phones of the past hangs! I've given up even the most simplest of phones from them.....but I've no choice to carry the current Nokia 5370, due to company's requirement to carry one, which also has a mind of its own...hangs!
Decided I'm going to get one iPhone4 once its available in little red dot....if it cooks my brain or just works 7x24...365.
One would think that if you're that sensitive to cell phone use that you'd have learned by now that there are headsets so that you don't have to hold the phone near your head.
Finally got my 4, and just in time. Wanted to take it with for testing on trip to Colorado. We've been all over this beautiful state's north central areas and I can report that I have had no problems. Calls get made and data served. In every way this phone outperforms my 3G. I am VERY satisfied. Even on a dude ranch in the middle of nowhere I could make calls. For naysayers, maybe the phone IS doing what critics say it's doing, but if it is, it's not causing me any problems in real world use.
As has been pointed out, discredited FUD isn't fact.
Quote:
I was referring to poor engineering in general.
Let's look at what a stupid statement that is. You intimate that the next iPod Touch might have poor engineering. Now if we take the cellular functions away from the iP4, you would not have anything at all to criticize. (Ignoring for a moment that you have nothing real to criticize there.) So where would the possible poor engineering on an iPod Touch come in? Obviously nowhere.
It's statements like these by you that not only show what a silly troll you are, but that you aren't even an intelligent one.
Many studies have shown that about 52% of the American population is so staggeringly stupid, they can't pick out their own home state on a map.
I always keep this in mind when a "big issue" arises on a forum. You just have to let those who can't find their own ******* blow off their worthless uninformed opinion, and then when the dust settles, the rest of us can move forward and forget about it.
Brings up a good point: Have visited several countries where the people could pick out my home state without ever having been to the US and now I live in Japan and haven't heard a fuss about the "Death Grip" here; the news carried the CR story, but that was the end of it. Wonder if there are major complaints arising in Europe?
One would think that if you're that sensitive to cell phone use that you'd have learned by now that there are headsets so that you don't have to hold the phone near your head.
This comment is unacceptable. It is entirely too logical for the discussion at hand.
Nokia and RIM should STFU and look into their own derivative, visionless organizations before they open their traps and complain about a company that isn't afraid to take risks and guides the entire industry.
Yeah. Who do they think they are, anyways? They have no right to criticize Apple.
Nokia has known about this issue and now they are trying to claim that their phones are perfect?
They are full of it!
Nokia is well known to be full of it. They are running scared as Apple eats their lunch! They are desperate for anything, no matter how insignificant, so they can pounce.
Nokia is just plain pathetic. They should just sell everything and return the money to the stockholders.
But doesn't Apple like telling people that their products are "magical"?
Do you know where the phrase magical comes from ?
According to Jobs himself:
Steve Jobs was testing the iPad in the wild in Florida. Some woman came up to him as asked what was that - Just something we're working on Steve said, to which the girl replied it's magical.
Clearly Steve liked that comment. and used it.
Let's face it wouldn't you be proud of something you worked for years on? and when people praise it wouldn't you repeat that praise?
Apple aren't as smug as you think, sure there's some pride but that's in part an artists joy at having their work appreciated.
Comments
I have stated fact.
speculating the existence of hidden masses of dis-satisfied iPhone users is fact?
I was referring to poor engineering in general.
apple is not perfect, but oh dear.
and is useless for me for the reasons I outlined in a previous post because the issue at hand will directly affect me.
i also have a 3gs and hold it in my left hand for phone calls (when not using the headphones, which i vastly prefer to use). i carry mine in a soft "foofcase", but apart from a screen protector it is "naked" when in use. for the iPhone 4, i feel a case, if you actually needed one (which isn't certain by any means) isn't too big a compromise considering how "non-bulky" they can be.
when you mention "should i take a risk" on the 4, what immediately came into mind was the stat of there being far fewer returns of 4's compared to 3gs' in the same period. it seems there was more "risk" with the 3gs.
IF you were so unlucky as to have meaningful issues with a 4, i doubt that you would be left without a phone. after a call to applecare and making an appointment at the nearest apple store, i had my 3gs replaced on the spot (and for free) for a superficial crack in the rear case. worst case scenario is you take it back for a complete refund and go back to your 3gs. that's how i feel about it anyway. good luck with your decision.
Surely DEATH GRIP isn't the the reason for people's original complaints? Why do people go on about DEATH GRIP so much when it obviously isn't the source of the hysteria.
Apple has done well to deflect attention away from the real issue.
speculating the existence of hidden masses of dis-satisfied iPhone users is fact?
As I have said to others, you can choose to believe what you want, but I believe in this case you are wrong. I can't provide you with hard data, but all you can provide is compaints to Apple, Steve didn't mention the people that complained to their providers. At the end of the day, human nature is human nature.
apple is not perfect, but oh dear.
Are you saying the way Apple handled this issue was not perfect, and it won't put people off purchasing items off them again? Try to remember in customer servers departments, generally a rule is if someone has a bad experience with something, they will tell 10 people, if they have a good experience they may tell 1 person. Saying everyone does it so it's not my fault is a good example of poor customer service.
As I said, i don't own any Android devices, so why would I post there? I like to troll Apple fansites and I think I might have finally found something to justify it, so I'll ride it for all it's worth, even if I'm wrong, hence why I am here.
Fixed.
Even still, Apple survived a media blitz that would have brought any other phone manufacturer to its knees.
The other phone companies HOPE that they will have problems like this because it will mean that they are selling millions of 1 phone model in a few weeks.
Apple isn't trying to draw them into the debacle, they're demonstrating there shouldn't be a debacle that all phones designers have challenges and the iPhone isn't unique in its recommended way of holding it ( in weak signal areas).
Yes but while that may be true with sme other companies, these other companies have many different models where Apple only has one. I've worked in the entertainment business for years and
I presently have the 3G model. This phone compared to more than any other phone my wife and I have owned drops more calls then most and has a terible tine going from edge to 3G
Some phones never.
?,Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
Your post points out the very danger apple faces. "Unintended acceleration" WAS shown to occur with other car brands. And the accusers ended up highly suspect: one blamed the devil; one was angry at toyo over a prior gripe; one sold her car without ever mentioning any accel problem; in one of the most spectacular recorded cases, police couldn't find evidence the driver had actually been pressing on the brake despite instructions given him. Heck, testing couldn't even replicate the problems, leaving all the cases suspect as incidents of operator error or malicious fraud.
But look how you and most of the public remember it.
I always keep this in mind when a "big issue" arises on a forum. You just have to let those who can't find their own ******* blow off their worthless uninformed opinion, and then when the dust settles, the rest of us can move forward and forget about it.
Something that just caught my eye when browsing engadget:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/17/h...ntage-pew-pew/
"Whereas Apple claimed over 0.55 percent of customers called AppleCare with reception-related complaints, HTC's Eric Lin told Pocket-lint the Droid Eris technical support rate was 0.016 percent, nearly thirty-four times lower"
Perhaps .55% is nothing to crow about? Just putting it out there. A number by itself may sound impressive but put into context and it takes on a different meaning altogether. I know nothing of the general or accepted rate of reception related issues but these two data points are quite disparate.
I call BS. Almost no consumer device is going to have a 0.016% level of customer support calls. Heck, toasters probably get that many calls. Maybe they only had that many calls in the first hour after its launch.
By most reports, 0.55% complaints is a very reasonable level. If you don't like that figure, look at the return rate - less than 1/3 the return rate of the 3GS - which is highly regarded as one of the best phones on the market. This figure IS far lower than the rest of the industry average.
As I have said to others, you can choose to believe what you want, but I believe in this case you are wrong. I can't provide you with hard data, but all you can provide is compaints to Apple, Steve didn't mention the people that complained to their providers. At the end of the day, human nature is human nature..
So, IOW, your fantasies don't agree with the facts, so we're supposed to believe your fantasies?
What about the return rates? If you are correct, why is the return rate less than 1/3 that of the 3GS at the same time point?
Then, what is the point of the endless posting of the same links? What do they prove? That Nokia is clever enough to put their antennas out of the reach of physical contact?
Because Nokia and RIM have the same problem - even WITH their antennas not being touched. And both made the mistake of going public with the claim that their phones don't have the problem. That was a huge, boneheaded mistake. If they had kept their mouths shut, the broad perception would have been that this was an Apple problem (with some percentage of people realizing that it was an industry-wide problem). By opening their mouths and making a claim that their phones aren't affected, they opened themselves to ridicule - which will come back to bite them.
Unfortunately it's not quite that easy. For the signal loss due to de-tuning of the antenna, yes, some sort of coating would be part of a solution, though a coating over the gap between the two would actually act as a capacitor, which is not a block to RF (it is to dc), so that in itself would de-tune the antenna (you can actually use a capacitor in your antenna circuit to change it's resonant frequency and tune it in). I would imagine they could make some tweaks inside in conjunction to a coating which would alleviate that however. It's 10 years since I did any work on antennas and to be honest my memory is a bit rusty.
What a clear coating would not help is the attenuating effect of the proximity of your hand. The attenuating effect of your hand is nothing to do with whether or not there is an insulator between your hand and the antenna, more it is to do with the fact that there is something that is mostly water (remember, we're about 70% water) which will happily soak up RF energy and lower the received (and transmitted) signal. The only way around that is to move the antenna away from your hand, which the bumper will do a bit, and moving the antenna inside would do.
However, from what I've seen (and I admit, I don't have an iPhone 4 to play with, so I'm basing this off the videos I've seen), I suspect this problem is being caused almost entirely by de-tuning, and a coating, coupled with some internal tweaks would resolve it. I'm basing that on the idea that since a bumper does seem to solve the problem, and it only moves your hand a couple of mm away from the antenna, it's not really changing the attenuating effect of your hand, so the fact that it fixes the problem would point to de-tuning being the root cause).
That said, a clear coating is not exactly straightforward, given it will be going on an area of the phone that is handled/rubbed a lot, and would be sensitive to rubbing off. I'm not saying there is not such a coating out there, and there might be something really easy (I'm not a materials engineer), but I would think it's actually a bit of a challenge.
Your conclusion is not as simple as it looks. You are correct that if you add a thin polymer coating to the antenna that you'd have to change the internals but that would be quite simple. You could then have a phone with a coating that works as well as the 'naked' phone.
HOWEVER, to get a detuning effect, you don't have to actually touch the antenna. If you get close to it, you can get the same detuning (if you're old enough to remember rabbit ear TV antennas, you'd remember that you could change the signal just by standing near the antenna without touching it). Even with a coating, if you hold the phone in your hand, you could still detune the antenna. Probably not as much, but still some. You're still going to get capacitance effects, even through a thin polymer coating.
See you would fall in that 0.55% figure that jobs pulled out. You would be suprised to see the actual number of people that complain about an issue they have.
Maybe we would. Why don't you provide the figures so we can find out if they're surprising?
Oh, you can't - because you're simply making wild guesses.
Maybe Apple should have kept their mouths shut and not dragged others into their issue, after all it is the iPhone 4 that the iPhone users are having the issue with, not the other brands.
And THAT is why people keep posting links to all the Youtube videos and Apple's testing showing that other phones experience the same effect.
It's funny how you can jump all over Apple and iPhone fans by claiming that they'll ignore evidence of a problem and deny that the problem exists --- yet when extensive evidence is presented that the same thing occurs with other phones, you simply deny it.
Did anyone is as sensitive as I'm when using cell phones? My head gets heated up after good 5 minutes of use....guess what phones? Many models of Nokia, Ericsson and Sony Ericssion. Make another guess.....all these phones of the past hangs! I've given up even the most simplest of phones from them.....but I've no choice to carry the current Nokia 5370, due to company's requirement to carry one, which also has a mind of its own...hangs!
Decided I'm going to get one iPhone4 once its available in little red dot....if it cooks my brain or just works 7x24...365.
One would think that if you're that sensitive to cell phone use that you'd have learned by now that there are headsets so that you don't have to hold the phone near your head.
I have stated fact.
As has been pointed out, discredited FUD isn't fact.
I was referring to poor engineering in general.
Let's look at what a stupid statement that is. You intimate that the next iPod Touch might have poor engineering. Now if we take the cellular functions away from the iP4, you would not have anything at all to criticize. (Ignoring for a moment that you have nothing real to criticize there.) So where would the possible poor engineering on an iPod Touch come in? Obviously nowhere.
It's statements like these by you that not only show what a silly troll you are, but that you aren't even an intelligent one.
Many studies have shown that about 52% of the American population is so staggeringly stupid, they can't pick out their own home state on a map.
I always keep this in mind when a "big issue" arises on a forum. You just have to let those who can't find their own ******* blow off their worthless uninformed opinion, and then when the dust settles, the rest of us can move forward and forget about it.
Brings up a good point: Have visited several countries where the people could pick out my home state without ever having been to the US and now I live in Japan and haven't heard a fuss about the "Death Grip" here; the news carried the CR story, but that was the end of it. Wonder if there are major complaints arising in Europe?
One would think that if you're that sensitive to cell phone use that you'd have learned by now that there are headsets so that you don't have to hold the phone near your head.
This comment is unacceptable. It is entirely too logical for the discussion at hand.
But doesn't Apple like telling people that their products are "magical"?
Only the iPad is magical. Try again.
Nokia and RIM should STFU and look into their own derivative, visionless organizations before they open their traps and complain about a company that isn't afraid to take risks and guides the entire industry.
Yeah. Who do they think they are, anyways? They have no right to criticize Apple.
Nokia has known about this issue and now they are trying to claim that their phones are perfect?
They are full of it!
Nokia is well known to be full of it. They are running scared as Apple eats their lunch! They are desperate for anything, no matter how insignificant, so they can pounce.
Nokia is just plain pathetic. They should just sell everything and return the money to the stockholders.
But doesn't Apple like telling people that their products are "magical"?
Do you know where the phrase magical comes from ?
According to Jobs himself:
Steve Jobs was testing the iPad in the wild in Florida. Some woman came up to him as asked what was that - Just something we're working on Steve said, to which the girl replied it's magical.
Clearly Steve liked that comment. and used it.
Let's face it wouldn't you be proud of something you worked for years on? and when people praise it wouldn't you repeat that praise?
Apple aren't as smug as you think, sure there's some pride but that's in part an artists joy at having their work appreciated.
Why cannot they work on a solution to this problem on the iPhone?
Apple has brilliant engineers - the best in the world.
But they don't have anybody on staff who can rewrite all the laws of science.
The engineers are not magicians, even though Apple devices often seem to work like magic.
Sorry to disappoint you.