RIM, Nokia respond to Apple's "Antennagate" press conference

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  • Reply 361 of 547
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    I see you are confused what the word "percentage" means. It does not matter how many more units Apple has sold vs HTC. They didn't say X number of units where being returned. They gave a percentage. I suggest you look up the meaning of percentage. The fact remains, HTC has a much lower return rate.



    Leave it to you to report a meaningless number.



    Even if HTC is telling the truth about the HTC call frequency, let's look at the facts. The HTC phone is sold through Verizon and Verizon does all tech support. Even if you call HTC, you are referred to Verizon. So, any figure provided by HTC is going to be only a tiny fraction of the actual number.



    For Apple, anyone buying an iPhone through an Apple Store calls AppleCare. Even if you buy the phone from AT&T, you can call AppleCare if there's a problem.



    Basically, HTC's claim is like your Honda lawn mower dealer saying that Honda cars never need repairs because they never get any phone calls.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post


    Think that sums it up quite well for every discussion on this site.



    Personally I'm type 4. Don't really care if there is or isn't an issue as I don't want the phone (already have an iPhone would just be buying the same thing again but slightly different), but do find it quite amusing after years of Apple pointing out bad things in other peoples products they've now got a news story about them that they can't kill.



    Also find the argument that it's fixed with case highly amusing. Really what's the point buying one of the most expensive phones that looks awesome to then cover it up?



    It's funny - most iPhone users don't care if they have to buy a case. It's the critics who are so upset that iPhone users might want (or need) a case. But then, in the very next breath, they'll criticize Apple fans for choosing form over function. Can you say 'hypocrite'?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Magic8Ball View Post


    This spat between Apple and the other smartphone makers is going to get worse. Especially when the iPhone appears on Verizon (and maybe Sprint).



    Even though I think the situation is solved as giving a bumper/cover is effectively a redesign in the field - with the benefit of allowing users to select their color



    Apple are going to have to:



    1 - Coat the antenna with a clear durable insulator spray - so the issue is not reproducible on a phone without a cover/bumper



    I really wish people would stop making recommendations without knowing what they're talking about.



    This would almost certainly not solve the problem. The 'detuning' issue is caused by a change in impedance of the antenna caused by the capacitance changes from your hand being in proxmity of the antenna. A thin coating would not prevent that. It might lessen it slightly, but it would not eliminate it - your hand would still change the impedance (those of you old enough to remember TV rabbit ears will remember that the signal changed if you even got close to the antenna). You need to separate your hand from the sensitive area - either by moving your fingers a few mm or using a case.
  • Reply 362 of 547
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post


    I hope Consumer Reports subjects new phones from Nokia and RIM to the same rigorous testing they did to the iPhone. All of these competitors of Apple who fanned the flames need to be careful because now their equipment will be scrutinized under a microscope just like Steve Jobs had his equipment inspected and dissected by the media.



    Payback is a bitch.



    CR won't do that. They've made their position clear.



    1. They report that the iPhone has better reception than any other smart phone - even with the problem. They gave it their highest rating.



    2. They said that even the minor glitch could be resolved with use of a bumper.



    3. They said that they couldn't give the phone their 'recommended' rating unless Apple provided a free bumper or other solution.



    4. Apple gave away a free bumper for a fixed time and said that they will evaluate things at the end of that time. CR still refused to give the 'recommended' rating - alleging that since they don't know what Apple will do in the future, they can't give a recommendation today.



    Note, of course, the inanity of that position. If I look for their review of a Corvette today, it is based on their information as of today. No one expects that the information will always apply. GM could double the price tomorrow. GM could suddenly have their engine plant start producing crappy engines. The tires on the Corvette might no longer be available in a few months. Yet CR has no problem giving a 'recommended' rating for other devices, even though the future is unknown.



    At WORST, they should have said 'recommended, as long as you get the free bumper from Apple' or something to that effect. Or add $30 to the price and recommend it with the bumper. But they didn't do that - they simply went back on their position and supported all the critics who expect perfection.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    A customer is seated in a crowed restaurant at the peak of dinner hour.



    -- The waiter approaches: "Good Evening, Sir-- what may I get get for you?"

    -- The customer replies: "The same as last time!"





    Sadly, I don't think it is so much a technology issue-- or even one of facts. Rather, it is an issue of entitlement-- it goes something like this:



    -- I am entitled to have everything I want

    -- I am perfect, therefore the things I use must be perfect, too

    -- I do not need to adapt to the way something works to exploit it, rather, the thing needs to adapt to me

    -- My standards are the highest, therefore I get to decide how and what others must do meet them

    -- I am looking out for the good of mankind, etc, therefore I am entitled to criticize others on their motives, performance, etc.

    -- Though I have no intention of using a product, I am entitled to decide what is acceptable to others, for their own good.

    -- I need not explain my reasoning, nor supply supporting facts, I am entitled to my opinion and others must accept it, prima facie.

    -- I am aware that others are not as enlightened as me, so I will assume the burden of educating them

    -- I am a speaker of truth and you must follow and remember everything I say





    I suspect, that Americans exhibit the "entitlement mentality" more than citizens of other countries. We've always had it pretty good in America-- it is easy to fall into the trap that we are "entitled" to have the best of everything. The welfare society, journalism, and advertising do a lot to support that attitude.





    Reading through these threads for the past 3 weeks, you see a lot of posts that exhibit one or more of the above "entitlement" characteristics.



    Humans, being what we are, are all guilty, to some extent, of an entitlement mentality-- I know that I am!



    But, if you follow, the content and logic of some who post here, you will often find a hidden agenda with an "entitlement mentality" in that their offerings are above reproach-- If you don't get it, it is because you just haven't been paying attention to the truths they've offered. But, fear not, they will deign to repeat their truths for as long as it takes to bring us to a state of enlightenment,





    Again, sadly, this only adds cruft, and detracts from, nay, overwhelms the reasoned discussion of problems or their solution.



    .



    QFT.
  • Reply 363 of 547
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justflybob View Post


    Not your name. The photo just reminded me of the old joke about the Oakland A's, former known as the Oakland Athletics.



    So, if you were a supporter of the A's, then you obviously were an Athletics supporter!



    BTW: I once had a client by the name of Richard Wacker. He insisted on being called "Dick". Go figure!





    I am old enough to have assumed the nickname "Dick" before it became reference to a penis. In those days, you can see it in some old Humphrey Bogart films (Maltese Falcon, etc.) it was used to describe a detective-- "My name is Sam Spade, and I'm a private dick."



    Over the years the meaning has changed, but I am too stubborn (lazy) to change!



    Besides, what would I call myself: Dick Smith? Ricardo Manzanabaum? Rich, Ritch, Richie, Ritchie? Rick, Ricky? My paternal grandfather's name was Maurice Applebaum... Maybe I should just change my name to Moses, and be done with it.





    P.S. I an an A's fan, but don't follow/support them much.



    Dick



    .
  • Reply 364 of 547
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Leave it to you to report a meaningless number.







    I really wish people would stop making recommendations without knowing what they're talking about.



    This would almost certainly not solve the problem. The 'detuning' issue is caused by a change in impedance of the antenna caused by the capacitance changes from your hand being in proxmity of the antenna. A thin coating would not prevent that. It might lessen it slightly, but it would not eliminate it - your hand would still change the impedance (those of you old enough to remember TV rabbit ears will remember that the signal changed if you even got close to the antenna). You need to separate your hand from the sensitive area - either by moving your fingers a few mm or using a case.



    I suggested 3 options for the manufacturer - it's funny how you ignore the other 2 options. also clear coating is capable of working as evidenced by people removing the problem when they coat the area in nail polish.



    You should instead be suggesting that the coating is most likely not durable. On that we would agree ( given what I know at this moment). However as we're not materials experts I think we can still include it as an option.
  • Reply 365 of 547
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post


    I hope Consumer Reports subjects new phones from Nokia and RIM to the same rigorous testing they did to the iPhone. All of these competitors of Apple who fanned the flames need to be careful because now their equipment will be scrutinized under a microscope just like Steve Jobs had his equipment inspected and dissected by the media.



    Payback is a bitch.



    Sadly other manufacturers equipment wont be scrutinized to the degree the iPhone will be, though they should be.

    Let's face it, the iPhone is the beautiful new girl in school and all the old girls, fear losing their dates to her. As a result they're teaming up to find fault and spread rumor. Anything to bring her down
  • Reply 366 of 547
    prof. peabodyprof. peabody Posts: 2,860member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    .... an interesting link:



    Apple Becomes Enemy of the State



    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...108.guest.html



    It is rather long and contains a bit of bluster-- though, not so much as some the antennagate diatribes!



    If you take the time to read through the article you will find an interesting perspective,



    .



    No offence but posting a link to the Rush Limbaugh show is tantamount to putting an "I'm a big idiot" sign over your head. His kind of "news reporting" is exactly the kind that causes big kerfuffles like the one about the iPhone 4 antenna, because the facts have no appeal to people like him and his listeners.



    This is a real discussion about real problems and what's needed are more facts, not slanted, emotional BS from one of the biggest liars and shill artists that ever lived.
  • Reply 367 of 547
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justflybob View Post


    You missed the most obvious category:



    4) Posters who ACTUALLY OWN AN iPhone 4, who know for a fact how overblown this baseless and useless FUD is, and have not had any issues whatsoever.



    This problem doesn't affect all (or indeed many) users. How can you make a judgement based on a single unit?



    Answer: You can't. The sample size is way too small.
  • Reply 368 of 547
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    No offence but posting a link to the Rush Limbaugh show is tantamount to putting an "I'm a big idiot" sign over your head. His kind of "news reporting" is exactly the kind that causes big kerfuffles like the one about the iPhone 4 antenna, because the facts have no appeal to people like him and his listeners.



    This is a real discussion about real problems and what's needed are more facts, not slanted, emotional BS from one of the biggest liars and shill artists that ever lived.





    Did you read the linked article, or just reject it because you don't like the author?



    IMO, in this instance Rush is on-target in that Apple is being skewered because they are too successful.





    I used to listen to Rush on a regular basis.



    Rush does not claim to be a journalist, nor a news reporter,



    He claims to be an "entertainer" who offers " his opinions" on things that interest him. His show is just that!





    Rush has as much right to post here, as anyone, although I doubt if he knows that AI even exists.



    I have as much right as anyone to post whatever links I feel are of interest, support my assertions or contribute to the discussion.



    You have the freedom to read them or not, agree or not-- your choices.





    To suggest that "I'm a big idiot" because I seek knowledge, whatever the source -- suggests that one of us may have "prejudged" the issues and is not open to discussion of ideas from a different point of view.



    I do take offense!



    .
  • Reply 369 of 547
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Except, IMO, in this instance he is factual in that Apple is being skewered because they are too successful.



    .



    Tall Poppy Syndrome

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome
  • Reply 370 of 547
    sambansamban Posts: 171member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by st3v3 View Post


    Where did you get this information? It holds on to the signal quite well but I'm not sure about it being the best cell phone in terms of reception at all.







    Great. I'm happy that you have an opinion that's different from mine. I completely care that you do not agree with my post. And what stings? I don't even own a blackberry, but I see the assumption around here is if it's not pro-apple, you're pro-competition.



    Anyway, clearly these Fandroids, RIMjobs, and NokiaNuts decrying the exposition of their pet technologies have gotten to you--who most likely self identify as an AppleAsshat. Sucks for you, posts on an online forum made by people who don't like your device really shouldn't bother you. You should calm down.



    Also, the comparison was just a glazing over of the issue. As I've said before, "every phone has this issue, but ours results in a greater amount of signal loss than our previous model" doesn't sound too good. Thus, they just left it at the first part. Everyone knows that the bars mean little, and I'm sure apple does too. However they never got into the amount lost in dbm with their phone vs competing phones, data loss, phone quality and calls dropped, or anything scientific. Everyone decried how unscientific all the random videos online were and considered anandtech to be a credible source with their findings on the iphone 4, but when apple does something in the same vein the whole forum jumps on it. I like anandtechs testing of it better, showing how the 3 phones responded depending on how it was held in one's hand. Their review was excellent because they noted the issue, but also highlighted the positives of the antenna design. Seems like everyone feels too close to their phones. The brand loyalty in the phone industry is ridiculous.



    Just a point Apple is in the phone business for 3 years and every body else is more than that almost 10+ years or so. But, they have common problem hence if apple is incompetent in antennae design then so is everyone out there. Complaining about a complex problem is very easy but solving is so challenging that people haven't found any of it, otherwise you would seen patents flying out.



    Moreover, Apple had to choose a different antenna design because it needs to get out of nokia patent trap.



    There are always more parameters to a design than what looks on first sight and people who don't come from that industry won't understand it & people who come don't complain so much about.
  • Reply 371 of 547
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samban View Post


    Just a point Apple is in the phone business for 3 years and every body else is more than that almost 10+ years or so. But, they have common problem hence if apple is incompetent in antennae design then so is everyone out there. Complaining about a complex problem is very easy but solving is so challenging that people haven't found any of it, otherwise you would seen patents flying out.



    Moreover, Apple had to choose a different antenna design because it needs to get out of nokia patent trap.



    There are always more parameters to a design than what looks on first sight and people who don't come from that industry won't understand it & people who come don't complain so much about.



    Tell me more about this - what patent Nokia have on antennas ?
  • Reply 372 of 547
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Magic8Ball View Post


    Tall Poppy Syndrome

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome



    Exactly!



    How dare Apple have blockbuster profits, and burgeoning sales of popular products in a down economy?



    Rather than set the standard for others to follow, Apple needs to be brought down so they can share our pain!



    That's what this is all about-- the iP4 antenna issue is only a serendipitous means to that end!



    .
  • Reply 373 of 547
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum


    .... an interesting link:



    Apple Becomes Enemy of the State



    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...108.guest.html



    It is rather long and contains a bit of bluster-- though, not so much as some the antennagate diatribes!



    If you take the time to read through the article you will find an interesting perspective,



    No offence but posting a link to the Rush Limbaugh show is tantamount to putting an "I'm a big idiot" sign over your head. His kind of "news reporting" is exactly the kind that causes big kerfuffles like the one about the iPhone 4 antenna, because the facts have no appeal to people like him and his listeners.



    This is a real discussion about real problems and what's needed are more facts, not slanted, emotional BS from one of the biggest liars and shill artists that ever lived.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    To suggest that "I'm a big idiot" because I seek knowledge, whatever the source -- suggests that one of us may have "prejudged" the issues and is not open to discussion of ideas from a different point of view.



    I agree with Applebaum 100%. One should never limit where they look for and gain knowledge. To quote Adlai E. Stevenson Jr., "If we value the pursuit of knowledge, we must be free to follow wherever that search may lead us."
  • Reply 374 of 547
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Exactly!



    How dare Apple have blockbuster profits, and burgeoning sales of popular products in a down economy?



    Rather than set the standard for others to follow, Apple needs to be brought down so they can share our pain!



    That's what this is all about-- the iP4 antenna is only a convenient means to that end!



    .



    Exactly - and as I've posted in another thread this is only going to get worse. Especially when the iP4 is also on Verizon.



    Apple are doing well because we're in the experience economy and most phone manufacturers don't know this



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Experience_Economy
  • Reply 375 of 547
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    Fixed.



    Wow, what will the great Quadra come up with next. Calling someone a troll, wow, the massive wit this person has is above all else.



    Remember people, these are the Appleinsider troll definitions.



    1. Disagree with something Apple does - You are a troll

    2. Disagree with someone else here that is pro-Apple - You are a troll

    3. Disagree with anyone on any topic - You are a troll
  • Reply 376 of 547
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    So, IOW, your fantasies don't agree with the facts, so we're supposed to believe your fantasies?



    No, I said you can believe what what you want to believe. Unlike you, I don't think people should be forced to accept that I believe.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    And THAT is why people keep posting links to all the Youtube videos and Apple's testing showing that other phones experience the same effect.



    That's funny, I don't see videos of my phone on Youtube, or videos of the other phones in my family on youtube with this issue. Maybe because they don't have the same issue that Apple has.
  • Reply 377 of 547
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post


    Jfanning : I have blackberry bold 9700 and replicated that effect a number of times in normal use, I never made an issue because it never made me drop calls. Please put your common sense hat on and stop pushing garage arguments, if you do not like Apple say so.



    So your Blackberry loses signal when held in the normal position? You should complain, after all I am told on this site that anyone that has paid money for a service that doesn't work would complain. And as I have told you, my phone doesn't behave in the manner the iPhone does, and neither do the other phones in my household. Yes they will drop signal when you cover the antenna, but on them, the antenna does live where you hold the phone.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post


    I did not know that entire Europe had launched the iPhone4 as yet ?





    No, but they have released it countries with around 100 million combined population, which seems to be an ok sized sample.
  • Reply 378 of 547
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SendMe View Post


    Seriously. Most consumer products have a MUCH higher return rate than that.



    Can you provide sample data?
  • Reply 379 of 547
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Let's look at what a stupid statement that is. You intimate that the next iPod Touch might have poor engineering. Now if we take the cellular functions away from the iP4, you would not have anything at all to criticize. (Ignoring for a moment that you have nothing real to criticize there.) So where would the possible poor engineering on an iPod Touch come in? Obviously nowhere.



    It's statements like these by you that not only show what a silly troll you are, but that you aren't even an intelligent one.



    Apple has had a history of poor engineering, they rank low in quality surveys. I have had 50% of my Macs fail. You can call me a troll all you like, live in your little dream world all you like.
  • Reply 380 of 547
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Wow, what will the great Quadra come up with next. Calling someone a troll, wow, the massive wit this person has is above all else.



    Remember people, these are the Appleinsider troll definitions.



    1. Disagree with something Apple does - You are a troll

    2. Disagree with someone else here that is pro-Apple - You are a troll

    3. Disagree with anyone on any topic - You are a troll



    4. Walk like a troll, quack like a troll - You are a troll.
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