Piracy problems undermine Android's growth against iPhone

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  • Reply 61 of 217
    Don't forget this apple forum site; we have to help apple and comment about how apple products are just better. It really doesn't matter the Android is becoming better or more attractive choice or if it keeps growing in market share.

    That's what the author of this post is doing. This is not an objective discussion.

    ?The IPhone 4 is the best phone?
  • Reply 62 of 217
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Orlando View Post


    Wow, Daniel Eran Dilger is going all out with his anti-Android articles. He currently is averaging at least one every day. At this rate there'll soon be more Android news on this site than Apple news. In fact so far today there are two Android articles but only one related to the Mac (and that is about Microsoft Office).



    I suppose the real question is why? Has Daniel Eran Dilger got so little confidence in the iPhone that he feels it cannot stand on its own two feet and he must attack the competition to compensate? I have an iPhone. I bought it because I thought it was the best smartphone. I do not need articles like this to try and help me justify my purchase.



    Agreed. Don't care for Android (now) and don't come here for Android news. Waste of space IMO.

    Leave this to Android site. Now how about some in-depth piece about iBookstore or Multi-Tasking in new iPhone?
  • Reply 63 of 217
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    Red Herring. This has NOTHING to do with your initial question. How many fortune 500 companies adopted the iphone 2G at launch? Like I said, it took SEVERAL revisions of the OS to get it to the point where companies would adopt it. Android is just getting there with Froyo, and google hasn't made a big corporate push yet like Apple did when they finally got their software up to par.



    It?s this kind of commentary that makes in impossible to a rational discussion with posters like you.



    You bring up the very first iPhone and try to compare that to Android which has been out in the wild for nearly two years now. The iPhone only 3 years old.
  • Reply 64 of 217
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post


    Agreed. Don't care for Android (now) and don't come here for Android news. Waste of space IMO.

    Leave this to Android site. Now how about some in-depth piece about iBookstore or Multi-Tasking in new iPhone?



    Agreed, we don?t want to hear any of the wonders of the Android, leave that to a non-apple site. As an apple owner, don?t think! ?The IPhone 4 is the best phone?
  • Reply 65 of 217
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    Wow, just wow.



    I can understand missing something if it's buried in a bunch of text...



    But the answer to your question is in the freaking picture of a bar graph.



    The graph!



    /slaps forehead



    No, the bar graph shows the % of users who download at least one paid app a month, not the % of app downloads from the app store that are free. I think you'll find that if you took ALL app store downloads in a month, and looked at it, most of those downloads would be free. Yes, more apps are purchased in the app store than in the market, but that's NOT what I'm asking. On BOTH platforms, a majority of the apps downloaded are free, you're just talking a difference in %, not a paradigm shift.



    Quote:

    And android users doubly so.



    In your opinion. Those articles linked are taking statistical data and interpreting it to make a headline. there are a TON of factors at work here. the iTunes ecosystem, visibility, etc.



    Quote:

    Huh? I thought that was iTunes fatal flaw.



    Look, sometimes the simplest explanation is the most likely.



    People don't like paying for stuff when they can easily steal it, and Android makes that easy enough.



    Apple's gonna have a similar issue if they can't get the jail breaking under control.



    And this is an entirely different point than the one the guy who posted the graph was trying to make. (and what you were trying to make earlier in this post).



    It's comparatively easy to find paid apps in the app store. Not only is their an autocomplete/auto suggest when you search, but the categories make a lot more sense (and they have the top25 countdown), plus the gift card ecosytem, items like the ipod/ipad that are given to kids who spend daddies money (instead of daddy spending his own money), etc.



    In this case, there are far to many factors to go off of the "simplest" answer
  • Reply 66 of 217
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    It’s this kind of commentary that makes in impossible to a rational discussion with posters like you.



    You bring up the very first iPhone and try to compare that to Android which has been out in the wild for nearly two years now. The iPhone only 3 years old.



    And it's your responses that make any rational discussion impossible. You're making another Red Herring, and missing the issue entirely.



    I brought up the first iphone to demonstrate a point. the first iphone didn't have enterprise comparability out of the box. It took several revisions to get it right, and more importantly, it took marketing BY Apple to make it such a big player.



    Android, when launched, didn't have enterprise capability. Their first few revisions didn't do much for this because they were still working on market penetration. Now that they have a decent consumer base, they want to try and push into the lucrative Enterprise, so, like apple, they updated their software to play nice with enterprise servers (or at least nicer), and they will most likely (if they haven't already) start marketing their product heavily to businesses as enterprise solutions.



    I was NOT using the iphone 2g as an excuse. I was saying that it took them time, just like it took apple time, to work in the support. Yes, it took them longer, but they're getting there. They needed market interest before they approached companies. Now they have it, so now they come out with enterprise solutions.



    But your bullet point about fortune 500 companies only makes sense if the corp friendly OS was already out on a ton of consumer friendly handhelds (it's not, and I never made that claim) It's like all the ifans suddenly crowing about front facing cameras like they invented the idea. (Or an android fan spamming about multitasking in a discussion about paid app viability pre-ios4.0) It's not a valid argument for the discussion, and it was only thrown in there because you wanted some bullet point.\\



    And while android has been out for 2 years, it was nothing more than a minor player until a little over a year ago. The Hero was the first android unit that really caught consumer's eye as something worth looking at, but android didn't explode until Verizon's Droid campaign made it mass market talking points. Say what you want about it, but the Droid advertisements boosted android from some "oh this is weird" handful of devices on tiny networks to something that mass media (and thus the public) paid attention to. Now major newspapers, tv stations, etc cover the devices. They've gone from something that was "only for tech nerds" to something everyday consumers (and thus employees) would be interested in. Most companies DON'T have business lines through Tmobile, at least not companies that need advanced exchange securities. Companies in the US use ATT/Verizon and smaller companies use Nextel/Sprint. You'll notice that when a device Launched on Verizon, it launched with the first build of their exchange support (though it was admittedly basic), so they started moving in that direction, 2.1 added more features, and 2.2 filled in most of the gaps. (just in time for their first real launch on ATT, the other big corporate carrier in the US)



    Android needed to reach that point before it became worth it to invest into getting the device corporate ready. Apple, thanks to a phenomenal marketing team, a groundbreaking launch device, and a launch partner with the largest subscriber base in the us, reached that a year sooner (took one year instead of 2) Again, I used the original iphone example to point out the stupidity of your bullet point, not to directly compare the OS's.
  • Reply 67 of 217
    bsenkabsenka Posts: 801member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    By your argument, Music piracy increases CD sales since so many people pirating the album will cause people who do pay for CD's to buy that album. Except it doesn't work like that.



    It absolutely DOES work that way. The most pirated music is almost always the same albums as the most sold. Not only that, but the people who pirate the most music also purchase the most.
  • Reply 68 of 217
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    I brought up the first iphone to demonstrate a point. the first iphone didn't have enterprise comparability out of the box. It took several revisions to get it right, and more importantly, it took marketing BY Apple to make it such a big player.



    You brought up the point then twisted the facts. The iPhone was already in use by 35% of Fortune 500 companies in under a year after hitting the market.



    Where is Android’s presence in the Enterprise after nearly double that time? Where is the Android beta program for the Enterprise? The fact remains that Android OS is not suited for the Enterprise by design. What it makes it great for you and others makes it bad for both the Enterprise and average consumer.
  • Reply 69 of 217
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    It absolutely DOES work that way. The most pirated music is almost always the same albums as the most sold. Not only that, but the people who pirate the most music also purchase the most.



    actually they don't. most people who pirate do so to avoid paying. And those albums would be popular without pirating. they were pirated because those people wanted popular albums
  • Reply 70 of 217
    Wow...I'm glad this came to light. Yet another article about Android. What is that 2 in one day! Gee....find some more news. I find it really strange that now since Android is starting to roll out the Froyo Update this site is starting to yet...try and try to put Android down again. They must be afraid that people may jump ship or something, I really don't know. But what i do know is that I come to this site to read up on Apple news...not to see what Apple is doing in comparison to Android. Especially when it comes to App Piracy Because like it or not, There is some so call loyal Apple citizens...that jailbreak their devices just for free apps. I can go to numerous Apple forums and find threads about people requesting how to get fake apps etc. So one can say that it happens on both platforms. Something that would be more interesting to read and get the readers attention would be an article on what Apple is doing about this Antenna Problem..other than giving out these stupid cases.



    When I go check up on Android news sites...the sites never talk about iphone as much as iphone sites talk about Android. Check Android Central or Phandroid. Maybe some of these writers feel threatend by Android....lol
  • Reply 71 of 217
    povilaspovilas Posts: 473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    And it's your responses that make any rational discussion impossible. You're making another Red Herring, and missing the issue entirely.



    I brought up the first iphone to demonstrate a point. the first iphone didn't have enterprise comparability out of the box. It took several revisions to get it right, and more importantly, it took marketing BY Apple to make it such a big player.



    Android, when launched, didn't have enterprise capability. Their first few revisions didn't do much for this because they were still working on market penetration. Now that they have a decent consumer base, they want to try and push into the lucrative Enterprise, so, like apple, they updated their software to play nice with enterprise servers (or at least nicer), and they will most likely (if they haven't already) start marketing their product heavily to businesses as enterprise solutions.



    I was NOT using the iphone 2g as an excuse. I was saying that it took them time, just like it took apple time, to work in the support. Yes, it took them longer, but they're getting there. They needed market interest before they approached companies. Now they have it, so now they come out with enterprise solutions.



    But your bullet point about fortune 500 companies only makes sense if the corp friendly OS was already out on a ton of consumer friendly handhelds (it's not, and I never made that claim) It's like all the ifans suddenly crowing about front facing cameras like they invented the idea. (Or an android fan spamming about multitasking in a discussion about paid app viability pre-ios4.0) It's not a valid argument for the discussion, and it was only thrown in there because you wanted some bullet point.\\



    And while android has been out for 2 years, it was nothing more than a minor player until a little over a year ago. The Hero was the first android unit that really caught consumer's eye as something worth looking at, but android didn't explode until Verizon's Droid campaign made it mass market talking points. Say what you want about it, but the Droid advertisements boosted android from some "oh this is weird" handful of devices on tiny networks to something that mass media (and thus the public) paid attention to. Now major newspapers, tv stations, etc cover the devices. They've gone from something that was "only for tech nerds" to something everyday consumers (and thus employees) would be interested in.



    Android needed to reach that point before it became worth it to invest into getting the device corporate ready.



    I'm not a tech nerd ( i would kill myself if i was), but it's just plain ugly and inconsistent. Most apps are crap. I know App Store is also full of crap, but at least UI is consistent and even if, let's say, 99% of apps are crap that leaves us with >2000 great quality apps. Add all recent security issues and i say NO THANKS. And people wan't more freedom in the App Store even with App Store control there are quite few security issues, so what was Google thinking about?
  • Reply 72 of 217
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    You brought up the point then twisted the facts. The iPhone was already in use by 35% of Fortune 500 companies in under a year after hitting the market.



    Where is Android?s presence in the Enterprise after nearly double that time? Where is the Android beta program for the Enterprise? The fact remains that Android OS is not suited for the Enterprise by design. What it makes it great for you and others makes it bad for both the Enterprise and average consumer.



    and that design changes with FROYO. Like I freaking said initially. I NEVER made a claim that current android handsets were perfect for enterprise.



    Forest for the Trees man.



    Google isn't actively courting enterprise (yet), apple did. Don't underestimate the power that marketing has.



    and again, where was android a year ago in the US? On a carrier with almost NO corp contracts, and on a phone that was considered by most to be a tech phone at best, and the average consumer didn't even know what android is. let alone did they want it badly enough to start pestering their IT department to support it.



    The two were in two TOTALLY different markets at launch and until very recently still were.



    If you can't see the difference between a barely advertised handset on a tiny network and the iphone, with two of the best know corporations behind it, with millions in advertising and an installed base of MILLIONS of iphone users, on the largest network in the US, the one used by more fortune 500 companies than any other network... I think you might want to look again.
  • Reply 73 of 217
    justflybobjustflybob Posts: 1,337member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    he needs to make a point to cause trouble



    Just keep pretending that you don't understand what he is saying. Then put on your tinfoil hat and join your local Open Source Now! group.



    With any luck you could be like the, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th member?



    Sweet!
  • Reply 74 of 217
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Povilas View Post


    I'm not a tech nerd ( i would kill myself if i was), but it's just plain ugly and inconsistent. Most apps are crap. I know App Store is also full of crap, but at least UI is consistent and even if, let's say, 99% of apps are crap that leaves us with >2000 great quality apps. Add all recent security issues and i say NO THANKS. And people wan't more freedom in the App Store even with App Store control there are quite few security issues, so what was Google thinking about?



    How is the OS inconsistent? And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I find a row of icons on a screen pretty ugly. I also call it my app drawer.



    And most of the "security flaws" are blown out of proportion. Do you know that over 20% of the free apps in the app store can access your contact information? Do you know which ones they are? At least android informs users of EXACTLY what those apps can access. My phone is just as secure as yours is unless I'm an idiot and don't use the tools offered to me. Android is not iOS, consumers shouldn't expect it to be.



    Or the fact that the newest jail-breaking tool for the iphone4 is the same kind of script that could be used to infect phones (ala active script exploits on PC's with Internet Explorer). This is a story that SHOULD be on a website like AppleInsider, but instead they post poorly researched crap about a rival OS.
  • Reply 75 of 217
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justflybob View Post


    Just keep pretending that you don't understand what he is saying. Then put on your tinfoil hat and join your local Open Source Now! group.



    With any luck you could be like the, oh I don't know, 3rd or 4th member?



    Sweet!



    Good to know you can't read AND you fail at humor.



    I understand what he's saying, I'm saying he's wrong. And I've shown him why quite a few times in several threads. he's taking random op ed colums, a few graphs and using it to spread his trash. The problem isn't as simple as he would like to believe, but he can't admit that because that would mean he would actually have to do some research of his own instead of posting in big bold letters all the time.



    Your comment about open source groups also has nothing to do with the conversation (in fact a member of said group would most likely agree with the person you're supporting) But then, you'd actually need to READ comments before responding to them to understand that.



    I understand the difficulty, thinking is hard for a lot of people.
  • Reply 76 of 217
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Orlando View Post


    Wow, Daniel Eran Dilger is going all out with his anti-Android articles. He currently is averaging at least one every day. At this rate there'll soon be more Android news on this site than Apple news. In fact so far today there are two Android articles but only one related to the Mac (and that is about Microsoft Office).



    I suppose the real question is why? Has Daniel Eran Dilger got so little confidence in the iPhone that he feels it cannot stand on its own two feet and he must attack the competition to compensate? I have an iPhone. I bought it because I thought it was the best smartphone. I do not need articles like this to try and help me justify my purchase.



    Please stop with these anti Google, anti Android articles and anti Microsoft articles and start posting more articles about Apple products. Thank you.



    Excuse me but who the FK are you? The thought police? (No - I expect a paid shill.) The public needs to be informed about these issues as they are key competitors to Apple trying to steal their customers away, and by trying to copy everything that apple does. The fact of the matter is that even apple users need to be armed with the facts to be able to counter all the mis-information out there, and to evaluate these issues themselves since everyone is trying pile it on apple right now - like the absolutely ridiculous media feeding frenzy over the non-existant "antennagate". Further, the truth of the matter is that Google is the new evil...
  • Reply 77 of 217
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    So you make a post about this...



    But you completely ignore the post what? a WEEK ago? Where Google created a new anti-piracy measure (free for devs) for their apps, allowing them to "sign" them, and have those purchases checked against Android Market Records. Seriously, if you're going to report about android piracy, at least report what android is doing to prevent it.



    Seriously, this is an APPLE BLOG. Stop posting about stuff not apple as 1) it has nothing to do with your products 2) you arn't taking the time to research the content, so you're making yourself look bad.



    And Android apps have ALWAYS been linked to their gmail/google checkout account. The reason why piracy (up till now) was so easy for android was because of Google return policy, and the ability of android phones to install third party applications via sideloading. So an asshole could purchase an app on a phone, use a program like astro to "back it up." and then refund the purchase and install from the backup.



    They then take the .apk (the app) and upload it to a warez site for others to install the same way.



    This is negated by the new measure, which gives app authors the ability to make the app check the store at given intervals to make sure the Google account it's running on actually has a purchased version of the app.



    If you're going to post a story, actually post a story. Don't just find the worst tidbit and harp on that while ignoring the actions ALREADY TAKEN to try and close the exploit you're talking on.



    Hey Menno - go FK yourself! Daniel hit the nail on the head and you have no clue what you are talking about. The fact of the matter is that it is the techtards that are gravitating to Android and are trying to beat the system and steal the content. Your description of what has been going on exactly reinforces that point. Who are you a paid shill for anyway?
  • Reply 78 of 217
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post


    Good points (and likely to be ignored here). It's not really about how much piracy stunts Android's 10-fold YTY growth -- rather, the purpose of this and similar articles is to create negative attitudes towards opening up of Apple's ecosystem through the legalized jailbreaking. Android is simply being used as a scarecrow, much like the virus-ridden Windows.



    There is no "legalized" jailbreaking - it was a frik'n person at the library of congress that said it is legal and this is bound to get overturned. When jailbreaking breaks the security of the device, people will be screaming.
  • Reply 79 of 217
    os2babaos2baba Posts: 262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Excellent platform for whom? The average consumer? I don?t think so. For tinkering youth it seems great but so is a jailbroken iOS device and other platforms.



    Case in point, I was asked just today for an Android app that would facilitate moving pics from the phone to a PC. I?d expect it to built in feature but the fact that it?s not simple enough that I was even asked is telling.



    Transferring pictures from a phone to a PC is as simple as connecting the phone to the PC, clicking on the prompt that helpfully pops up to open the drive and copying the files. If the user is not sophisticated enough to do that, he could use Double Twist which will sync music, photos, videos etc - just like iTunes. If the user can't do that, then he should stick with the iPhone.



    I have been using Android for close to 2 years now and have never purchased a single app - not because they are not good or too expensive, but because I have always looked for a free app and found one. But if I find an app that I need, I'll buy it. Can't imagine why anyone would want to pirate $2 software. But Piracy is certainly easy with Android, but you can only return a software once so I think you wouldn't be able to upgrade. I don't know since I have never purchased an app. Am I a cheap skate. I think so. But I think the bigger problem for developers is to be create apps that people will pay for instead of using high quality free apps. The free apps on the iPhone are nowhere near as good as the ones on the Android, so I can see why people who have only experienced the free apps on the iPhone might consider the apps on the Android lacking.



    IMO, Android has long since left the iPhone behind in software. It was the hardware that was lacking. I just bought a Samsung Vibrant and for the first time, the hardware is actually ahead of the software. Android 2.2 and Gingerbread will be bringing features that will take advantage of the hardware (eg. using the GPU hardware acceleration, dpi, fonts etc.).



    I also bought an iPod Touch (I prefer a separate device for music) and a iPad (for transferring my photos from my camera) last week and it's been ages since I used iTunes and I absolutely hate the way it works now and the fact that I have to use it to just activate the iDevices. I also hate the fact that I can't access the drives of the iPod anymore. I have already jailbroken the iPad so I could change the hosts file to block ads. I still find myself reaching for the Vibrant more than the iPad.



    So as you can see, I'm now a big fan of Android. But that does not mean that I'm blind to Android's faults. One of the worst being the Market. Amongst other problems app discovery is poor. Ironic that search in a Google app is so poor. But there are sites like Cyrket and especially AndroidZoom that make it much easier. And I expect that the web based Market rumored to be available this year will once again do what Android has been doing for the last couple of years - leap frog Apple.
  • Reply 80 of 217
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pirarre View Post


    Wow...I'm glad this came to light. Yet another article about Android. What is that 2 in one day! Gee....find some more news. I find it really strange that now since Android is starting to roll out the Froyo Update this site is starting to yet...try and try to put Android down again. They must be afraid that people may jump ship or something, I really don't know. But what i do know is that I come to this site to read up on Apple news...not to see what Apple is doing in comparison to Android. Especially when it comes to App Piracy Because like it or not, There is some so call loyal Apple citizens...that jailbreak their devices just for free apps. I can go to numerous Apple forums and find threads about people requesting how to get fake apps etc. So one can say that it happens on both platforms. Something that would be more interesting to read and get the readers attention would be an article on what Apple is doing about this Antenna Problem..other than giving out these stupid cases.



    When I go check up on Android news sites...the sites never talk about iphone as much as iphone sites talk about Android. Check Android Central or Phandroid. Maybe some of these writers feel threatend by Android....lol



    the shill are coming out of the woodwork - it is the active misinformation campaigns of the android techtards that are fanning the flames
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