The 800Mhz $ 1599 isn't such a good deal. The 933Mhz $ 2299 is a tad better. The 'Ultimate' is plain silly, an extra GB of memory and an extra 80G hard drive for $650 bucks? Sorry, give me the $2999 model and I'll add my own extras.
I think they will sell the two 'mid-end' systems but the bottom and top will pretty much sit on the shelves.
Let me clarify: I'm saying that a speed bump next week of the current G4 on the current motherboard, (not Apollo) is bad news for Seybold release of this motherboard with G5. In this case, no news is good news for a G5 soonest. I'm basing this thought on the past performance of Apple in it's upgrade cycles. A new "old" G4 would mean a delay in what we wait for.
Of course I hope I'm wrong and they bump it up tommorrow, and those that buy a Ghz G4 next week will sell their cars to buy a G5 in March. I'm looking for something to rocket my AAPL stock and make DP 500's cheap on ebay so I can make my Cube what it should have been.
I don't know if it's poor form to quote myself but I do it not in the sense of "I told you so" but to consider the timeline for Dorsal's prototypes. Seems to me that today's announcement puts the G5 rollout to MWNY. The use of DDR in the L3 (missing in Dorsal's protypes) is a step towards the use of DDR for main memory in the next "revision". Again I hope I'm wrong about this timing, but the new duals should be good for 6 months.
Heh, the use of DDR in the L3 (and putting that front-and-center in their specs) is just Apple covering their ass for not having a new memory subsystem to introduce. The new machines are stop-gap, and Apple knows it.
Look on the bright side though: we get another 3-6 months of wild speculation before the next generation PowerMac arrives.
Dorsal M makes one post and there are six pages in which maybe a quarter of it discusses the speculation and the rest is insulting or a discussion of credibility.
Is there any way we could curtail the latter, or move those discussions to another thread? With this kind of reception, is it no wonder that s/he posts so seldom?
I say this for a couple of reasons:
1: No information on this board should (by now) be regarded as anything other than speculation by anyone who has been around for a while. We all know this. Posters' styles differ on this, but it should be taken for granted.
2: Interesting posters like Dorsal M should not be shouted off the boards, because discussion suffers in the end.
3: Some people (like me) want to read discussions on future hardware, not six pages of credibility and ad hominem attacks. Sifting through pages and pages of hollering makes the experience of these boards much less interesting than it once was.
4: In the end, the credibility attacks are no more credible than the original posting. If all info discussed on the boards is taken with a grain of salt, that includes the nay-sayers as well. (See #1)
I apologize for adding yet another non-hardware post to this thread that has so many, but I hope people here will try and let the discussions in FH be discussions about FH, and not about posters themselves.
I for one am curious as to what Dorsal, Philbot, Time, even Kormac have to say, and I am not interested in iterations of credibility discussions. I have heard them all. We all have. Please, if you must, put them in another thread, so that the people who are interested in future hardware, can in fact read about it rather than simply sift for interesting posts. (If one is eager to have one's opinion on a poster's credibility heard, one could link to it from this and other interesting threads, perhaps.)
Anyway, that is my $.02. If you want to object, please do not do it here (This discussion is about the G5). Post a link to the thread in which you voice your objection rather than in this thread, which I hope can get back to a discussion of future hardware, and these blasted G5's about which I am actually eager to hear speculation.
My best guess is that when the upgrade cycle happens the 800 MHZ PowerMac will be dropped, the 933 & the GHZ will be the low & middle machines and the G5 will be tops. Could be 2 G4 machines and 2 G5 machines.
If there are no dual G5s to start with then keeping a dual G4 might be good. Of course, things will really get confusing if there's any overlap within the PowerMac line, but things are confused as it is.
I don't know if it's poor form to quote myself but I do it not in the sense of "I told you so" but to consider the timeline for Dorsal's prototypes. Seems to me that today's announcement puts the G5 rollout to MWNY. The use of DDR in the L3 (missing in Dorsal's protypes) is a step towards the use of DDR for main memory in the next "revision". Again I hope I'm wrong about this timing, but the new duals should be good for 6 months.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey mate just check out the new offer from Apple called Screen-Saver, it ends march 31.... and what is the next day????? April the first , which is Apple 26th anniversary, so expect to see the new G5 to be introduced this day
And by the way it is my 26th anniversary this very same day so I think that I will buy myself a good gift <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
And I am perplexed as to why these additional apps aren't shipped with new PowerMacs in Europe... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> Any idea, moki?
Hey mate just check out the new offer from Apple called Screen-Saver, it ends march 31.... and what is the next day????? April the first , which is Apple 26th anniversary, so expect to see the new G5 to be introduced this day
And by the way it is my 26th anniversary this very same day so I think that I will buy myself a good gift <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Chill? Hey I'm quite cool about it. "Screen Saver" could be a run up to lower LCD prices. A good gift for your Aniversary could be a 22" Cinema for $1999.
And by the way, Apple is giving resellers price protection for all in stock PM's, so check for new pricing on the dual 800's and others that might be around.
What I've seen is preliminary but it is on good faith that I share this information. Updated hardware is imminent, but I do not pretend to have a date or release. I have some sketchy details however. Basically there are 2 different systems, one based on an MPC7450 variant made on a SOI process and the other is the first of the MPC8500 (G5) made on a .13 micron SOI manufacturing process. The 7450 is scaling to beyonf 1.0GHz but most motherboards have 866 and 1.0GHz versions. They are all on 133MHz system boards with the full complimet of divices that exist in modern systems, including ATA/66 and IEEE1394a ports. Some of the motherboards have 4 USB ports on the motherboard however, but this is not strange as the Quicksilver motherboards have the same provisions however Apple had not implimented that feature on those units. All systems are being sent with a full 2MB of L3 cache. No duals have been seeded.
The 8500 systems are encased in Quicksilver cases, however much of the internals have been moved and shifted around to provide adequate heat removal and space for component positioning. G5's have a 400 or 500MHz system bus that runs at a 16bit-wide data path. This is the RadipIO bus to a controller that controls most of the onboard peripherals such as AGP 4x (may be 8x docs are vague), 2 PCI busses, Gb Ethernet, IEEE1394b running at 800/1600Mbps, USB 1.1, an IDE interface, and some other system level peripherals. Audio is digital. Processor speeds are 1200/1250MHz to 1400/1500MHz. The processor has a memory controller included on die connected to the core by a 256bit memory bus running at one quarter the processor clock speed. The controller supports 2 memory bus but Apple only uses one so the internal width is cut to 128 bit at one quarter processor core speed. This provides more than enough bandwidth for PC2100 and the controller is designed to handle PC2700 memory although for Apple PC2100 is easier to design for because of motherboard considerations. To design for PC2700 they would need to cut support for a DIMM slot because the distance from the processor is more than allowed. This is the reason why the 133MHz motherboards only have 3 DIMM slots. The 2 PCI busses are 64bit with support for 66MHz slots. One bus controls 2 slots while the other controls the other 2. If you insert a 64bit/33MHz card in one slot, that whole bus will run at 33MHz even if the other card has 66MHz support. But the other bus will be free to handle 66MHz cards. Also of note is that these units have NO L3 cache but L2 was 512KB. I have no information on what kind of support the G5 has for L3 or if it even has L3 cache support. With a very fast memory interface, I fail to see the reason why it would need to waste pin outs on L3 cache support.
This is good hardware. I have the impression that Apple may offer both models at the same time. The G4 models may even support a higher configuation such as 933MHz and 1.133GHz. But in Q3 of this year the 7451 is supposed to migrate to the same process as the G5 thus boosting speeds to, in my estimation, 1.2GHz to 1.5GHz.
____________________________________
Well dorsal didn't have the specs completely right, but he didn't claim to either. He was close with the 1Ghz but the 866mhz didn't happen. Although he did mention a 933Mhz model. Looks like apple tricked us by putting the 933Mhz model with the 1Ghz and not the 1.13Ghz. (seems to mean we will have a 1.2Ghz G5 and not a 1.13Ghz G4) The 2MB of L3 cache was right on. He didn't say anything about DDR though. Over all he scored a few points and didn't lose any if you go by SAT standards. I believe he is the real dorsal and was telling us what he knows. The posts by time have changed my atitude toward posters.
Lets say whether you believe it or not that Dorsal M is the real Dorsal. Then he has to also be close with the facts about the G5. It seems from his post that the G5 is ready. Apple just hasn't finished its new case. I think we will see the G5 at close to the speeds dorsal says at MWT or even seybold. If dorsal is for real which seams more likely now than it did we won't have to wait till MWNY for our G5s.
Also I think the 2nd and 3rd models G4s will move to 1st and 2nd (Prosumer models)and the G5 will take up the positons 3 and 4 (Pro models).
<strong>So um, moki... Where are the Apollo G4s you insisted on?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The main point I've consistently made is that you should not be expecting a G5 any time soon -- I've been saying that since before MacWorld/SF, but apparently it just doesn't make it through.
As for the G4s, as I also stated, there were two platforms in semi-parallel development. One was an SDRAM speedbump, the other DDR. The hardware for the former was ready for MacWorld/SF, so the delay must have been to give the iMac its day in the sun.
Apparently the Apollo G4's are waiting for the next speedbump (DDR), which given the timing, likely won't be out until at least 5 months from now. That would fit in well with G5's appearing early or mid 2003, given that there will likely be a speed bump to the Apollo/DDR platform after their release as well.
Man moki I isn't that I don't believe you. I actually have grown to like your posts. I just so hope you are wrong. I really want to see a g5 and soon. Now I don't need high ghz, but by the time a 1.6ghz g5 is out it will just be on par with performace and probably way behind in ghz compared with intel and amd. Maybe even way behind in both. I am sorry but I think that is pretty bad. Heck they may even be behind in performance. I just would like to say for once that mac has the fastest computer out there. In ghz and performance
From what I have read firewire 2 is ready to go. The reason the current new powermacs don't have firewire 2. The Upcoming G5s will have it. What does this mean. G5s are coming soon. If they were not apple would have just gone ahead and put firewire 2 in the ones out now.
Now if firewire 2 is not ready or almost ready (if almost ready and apple had no G5s they would have waited untill seybold for the current release. It would be to costly to keep changing the set up around.) then this post would have no meaning. Does any one know if it is ready? That is IEEE1394b. Dorsal says the new G5s will have it but the new G4s will not. Then he says he thinks they will be released at the same time. So he obviously thought Firewire 2 was ready. If it is this almost* proves that we will see G5s before MWNY. This is all it almost* proves though.
* I put almost in there so I wouldn't be flamed. But I think it is pretty hard evidence.
<strong>Man moki I isn't that I don't believe you. I actually have grown to like your posts. I just so hope you are wrong. I really want to see a g5 and soon. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Trust me, I'd like to be wrong as well. I'm rather certain that I am not, however.
Well, if midrange G4 towers are announced at the same time as the new G5s, it is possible that they could ship with Firewire, while the new G5s have Firewire 2. This could be another distinction between the two to justify higher pricing for the G5, which could be maybe $2299-$3499.
Comments
Dual 1-GHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 2MB L3 cache/processor
512MB SDRAM memory
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX
56K internal modem
Selling for $2999 is a pretty good deal...
The 800Mhz $ 1599 isn't such a good deal. The 933Mhz $ 2299 is a tad better. The 'Ultimate' is plain silly, an extra GB of memory and an extra 80G hard drive for $650 bucks? Sorry, give me the $2999 model and I'll add my own extras.
I think they will sell the two 'mid-end' systems but the bottom and top will pretty much sit on the shelves.
Dave
[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
They're not bad machines, but it's a decent speedbump rather than a significant rev.
And finally, Apple is shipping a GHz Mac.
<strong>
Let me clarify: I'm saying that a speed bump next week of the current G4 on the current motherboard, (not Apollo) is bad news for Seybold release of this motherboard with G5. In this case, no news is good news for a G5 soonest. I'm basing this thought on the past performance of Apple in it's upgrade cycles. A new "old" G4 would mean a delay in what we wait for.
Of course I hope I'm wrong and they bump it up tommorrow, and those that buy a Ghz G4 next week will sell their cars to buy a G5 in March. I'm looking for something to rocket my AAPL stock and make DP 500's cheap on ebay so I can make my Cube what it should have been.
[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know if it's poor form to quote myself but I do it not in the sense of "I told you so" but to consider the timeline for Dorsal's prototypes. Seems to me that today's announcement puts the G5 rollout to MWNY. The use of DDR in the L3 (missing in Dorsal's protypes) is a step towards the use of DDR for main memory in the next "revision". Again I hope I'm wrong about this timing, but the new duals should be good for 6 months.
Look on the bright side though: we get another 3-6 months of wild speculation before the next generation PowerMac arrives.
Dorsal M makes one post and there are six pages in which maybe a quarter of it discusses the speculation and the rest is insulting or a discussion of credibility.
Is there any way we could curtail the latter, or move those discussions to another thread? With this kind of reception, is it no wonder that s/he posts so seldom?
I say this for a couple of reasons:
1: No information on this board should (by now) be regarded as anything other than speculation by anyone who has been around for a while. We all know this. Posters' styles differ on this, but it should be taken for granted.
2: Interesting posters like Dorsal M should not be shouted off the boards, because discussion suffers in the end.
3: Some people (like me) want to read discussions on future hardware, not six pages of credibility and ad hominem attacks. Sifting through pages and pages of hollering makes the experience of these boards much less interesting than it once was.
4: In the end, the credibility attacks are no more credible than the original posting. If all info discussed on the boards is taken with a grain of salt, that includes the nay-sayers as well. (See #1)
I apologize for adding yet another non-hardware post to this thread that has so many, but I hope people here will try and let the discussions in FH be discussions about FH, and not about posters themselves.
I for one am curious as to what Dorsal, Philbot, Time, even Kormac have to say, and I am not interested in iterations of credibility discussions. I have heard them all. We all have. Please, if you must, put them in another thread, so that the people who are interested in future hardware, can in fact read about it rather than simply sift for interesting posts. (If one is eager to have one's opinion on a poster's credibility heard, one could link to it from this and other interesting threads, perhaps.)
Anyway, that is my $.02. If you want to object, please do not do it here (This discussion is about the G5). Post a link to the thread in which you voice your objection rather than in this thread, which I hope can get back to a discussion of future hardware, and these blasted G5's about which I am actually eager to hear speculation.
Thanks in advance.
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
If there are no dual G5s to start with then keeping a dual G4 might be good. Of course, things will really get confusing if there's any overlap within the PowerMac line, but things are confused as it is.
<strong>
I don't know if it's poor form to quote myself but I do it not in the sense of "I told you so" but to consider the timeline for Dorsal's prototypes. Seems to me that today's announcement puts the G5 rollout to MWNY. The use of DDR in the L3 (missing in Dorsal's protypes) is a step towards the use of DDR for main memory in the next "revision". Again I hope I'm wrong about this timing, but the new duals should be good for 6 months.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey mate just check out the new offer from Apple called Screen-Saver, it ends march 31.... and what is the next day????? April the first , which is Apple 26th anniversary, so expect to see the new G5 to be introduced this day
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
And by the way it is my 26th anniversary this very same day so I think that I will buy myself a good gift <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>
According to your website, it's only bundled with "Pro" Macs. Will this change?
And it still leaves open the second bundled title to rampant speculation....</strong><hr></blockquote>
::ahem::
<a href="http://www.apple.com/powermac/software.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/powermac/software.html</a>;
Just called the Fashion Island store in Newport Beach and they have the new pm's. They said the 1GHz dual should be setup by this afternoon.
Well, I'll know where I'll be this afternoon...
- Mark
<strong>
::ahem::
<a href="http://www.apple.com/powermac/software.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/powermac/software.html</a></strong><hr></blockquote>;
And I am perplexed as to why these additional apps aren't shipped with new PowerMacs in Europe... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> Any idea, moki?
<strong>
Hey mate just check out the new offer from Apple called Screen-Saver, it ends march 31.... and what is the next day????? April the first , which is Apple 26th anniversary, so expect to see the new G5 to be introduced this day
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
And by the way it is my 26th anniversary this very same day so I think that I will buy myself a good gift <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Chill? Hey I'm quite cool about it. "Screen Saver" could be a run up to lower LCD prices. A good gift for your Aniversary could be a 22" Cinema for $1999.
And by the way, Apple is giving resellers price protection for all in stock PM's, so check for new pricing on the dual 800's and others that might be around.
What I've seen is preliminary but it is on good faith that I share this information. Updated hardware is imminent, but I do not pretend to have a date or release. I have some sketchy details however. Basically there are 2 different systems, one based on an MPC7450 variant made on a SOI process and the other is the first of the MPC8500 (G5) made on a .13 micron SOI manufacturing process. The 7450 is scaling to beyonf 1.0GHz but most motherboards have 866 and 1.0GHz versions. They are all on 133MHz system boards with the full complimet of divices that exist in modern systems, including ATA/66 and IEEE1394a ports. Some of the motherboards have 4 USB ports on the motherboard however, but this is not strange as the Quicksilver motherboards have the same provisions however Apple had not implimented that feature on those units. All systems are being sent with a full 2MB of L3 cache. No duals have been seeded.
The 8500 systems are encased in Quicksilver cases, however much of the internals have been moved and shifted around to provide adequate heat removal and space for component positioning. G5's have a 400 or 500MHz system bus that runs at a 16bit-wide data path. This is the RadipIO bus to a controller that controls most of the onboard peripherals such as AGP 4x (may be 8x docs are vague), 2 PCI busses, Gb Ethernet, IEEE1394b running at 800/1600Mbps, USB 1.1, an IDE interface, and some other system level peripherals. Audio is digital. Processor speeds are 1200/1250MHz to 1400/1500MHz. The processor has a memory controller included on die connected to the core by a 256bit memory bus running at one quarter the processor clock speed. The controller supports 2 memory bus but Apple only uses one so the internal width is cut to 128 bit at one quarter processor core speed. This provides more than enough bandwidth for PC2100 and the controller is designed to handle PC2700 memory although for Apple PC2100 is easier to design for because of motherboard considerations. To design for PC2700 they would need to cut support for a DIMM slot because the distance from the processor is more than allowed. This is the reason why the 133MHz motherboards only have 3 DIMM slots. The 2 PCI busses are 64bit with support for 66MHz slots. One bus controls 2 slots while the other controls the other 2. If you insert a 64bit/33MHz card in one slot, that whole bus will run at 33MHz even if the other card has 66MHz support. But the other bus will be free to handle 66MHz cards. Also of note is that these units have NO L3 cache but L2 was 512KB. I have no information on what kind of support the G5 has for L3 or if it even has L3 cache support. With a very fast memory interface, I fail to see the reason why it would need to waste pin outs on L3 cache support.
This is good hardware. I have the impression that Apple may offer both models at the same time. The G4 models may even support a higher configuation such as 933MHz and 1.133GHz. But in Q3 of this year the 7451 is supposed to migrate to the same process as the G5 thus boosting speeds to, in my estimation, 1.2GHz to 1.5GHz.
____________________________________
Well dorsal didn't have the specs completely right, but he didn't claim to either. He was close with the 1Ghz but the 866mhz didn't happen. Although he did mention a 933Mhz model. Looks like apple tricked us by putting the 933Mhz model with the 1Ghz and not the 1.13Ghz. (seems to mean we will have a 1.2Ghz G5 and not a 1.13Ghz G4) The 2MB of L3 cache was right on. He didn't say anything about DDR though. Over all he scored a few points and didn't lose any if you go by SAT standards. I believe he is the real dorsal and was telling us what he knows. The posts by time have changed my atitude toward posters.
Lets say whether you believe it or not that Dorsal M is the real Dorsal. Then he has to also be close with the facts about the G5. It seems from his post that the G5 is ready. Apple just hasn't finished its new case. I think we will see the G5 at close to the speeds dorsal says at MWT or even seybold. If dorsal is for real which seams more likely now than it did we won't have to wait till MWNY for our G5s.
Also I think the 2nd and 3rd models G4s will move to 1st and 2nd (Prosumer models)and the G5 will take up the positons 3 and 4 (Pro models).
What do you guys think...
<strong>So um, moki... Where are the Apollo G4s you insisted on?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The main point I've consistently made is that you should not be expecting a G5 any time soon -- I've been saying that since before MacWorld/SF, but apparently it just doesn't make it through.
As for the G4s, as I also stated, there were two platforms in semi-parallel development. One was an SDRAM speedbump, the other DDR. The hardware for the former was ready for MacWorld/SF, so the delay must have been to give the iMac its day in the sun.
Apparently the Apollo G4's are waiting for the next speedbump (DDR), which given the timing, likely won't be out until at least 5 months from now. That would fit in well with G5's appearing early or mid 2003, given that there will likely be a speed bump to the Apollo/DDR platform after their release as well.
From what I have read firewire 2 is ready to go. The reason the current new powermacs don't have firewire 2. The Upcoming G5s will have it. What does this mean. G5s are coming soon. If they were not apple would have just gone ahead and put firewire 2 in the ones out now.
Now if firewire 2 is not ready or almost ready (if almost ready and apple had no G5s they would have waited untill seybold for the current release. It would be to costly to keep changing the set up around.) then this post would have no meaning. Does any one know if it is ready? That is IEEE1394b. Dorsal says the new G5s will have it but the new G4s will not. Then he says he thinks they will be released at the same time. So he obviously thought Firewire 2 was ready. If it is this almost* proves that we will see G5s before MWNY. This is all it almost* proves though.
* I put almost in there so I wouldn't be flamed. But I think it is pretty hard evidence.
<strong>Man moki I isn't that I don't believe you. I actually have grown to like your posts. I just so hope you are wrong. I really want to see a g5 and soon. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Trust me, I'd like to be wrong as well. I'm rather certain that I am not, however.