Why would it be unlikely? Apple realizes that people will have drives crash, I would think they would ENCOURAGE people to have a bootable backup whether it's on another drive, a thumb drive, or burned to DVD. You have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.
This is a classic example of needing ID to get ID. In this case, needing the OS in order to download the OS.
I think this problem could be solved in future Macs if they started building a small memory module into the logic board that would contain 'downloaded' source OS files ready to install. This would seem a smarter solution to the separate HDD partition, allowing for painless HDD upgrades. You'd still be able to download from the App Store and store on your new machine separate from the HDD you're planning on upgrading.
I can't help but feel a lot of anxiety with this. It seems like Apple is moving slowly in the direction of taking away control of files and the computer from users: no physical media -- must download from Apple; eliminating hard-drives, super-drives, etcetera; documents, music, photos, etcetera will be in the "cloud"; your iPhone will be an electronic wallet; etcetera; the Mac becoming a closed system maybe (?). A Mac will just become a "dumb terminal" and you'll have to pay a monthly fee to use your computer. If you don't pay, then no access. I know it is not this way now, but it just seems like things are going in that direction. The "bean-counters" wanting that steady steam of money via subscriptions. It'll be marketed as "the best thing", "the way to go", "insanely great", etc. I feel like the man in the 1984 commercial has changed from Bill Gates to Steve Jobs. Some of this also comes across as change for change's sake. I don't mean to be a "troll" or a scare monger. Not trying to start a flame war. Just real concerns I have.
I?m quite interested in what this means for the license for OS X.
Correct me if I?m wrong, but in the past, the OS X EULA only allowed for it to be installed on a single Mac unless you bought the Family Pack which allowed 4, if I remember correctly (of course, there was nothing stopping you from installing the single license version on multiple Macs).
The Mac App Store only allows software, with a license to be installed on any Mac owned by the same person.
Will the version of Lion available on the Mac App Store be under the same license as the rest of the software on the Store, or will the make an exemption for OS X?
Along similar lines, I was just thinking that the Mac App Store is an effective anti-piracy tool. I have to assume that apps still come wrapped in some kind of DRM (am I wrong?), so rather than go the Microsoft route of forcing people to activate their software, punch in product keys, etc. etc., simply wrap the program in DRM and force the purchase through a store that requires authentication/verification of your ownership credentials. That said, for a major piece of software like the OS, I have to imagine Apple will continue to offer physical media sales, or at least an option of burning some kind of disc image or creating a bootable flash image.
What do you believe will run on PowerPC that doesn't have a newer version on Intel?
And why can't you just do what I do about that?
[IMG]V large pic![/IMG]
Sorry about the temporary hugeness if you saw that. Why don't we support the TIMG tag?
There are apps that I use very occasionally, some of which cost quite a bit (Photoshop plug-ins for example) that I can't justify spending on again just for a bit of playing around now and again.
I wasn't quite sure what that picture was showing me. Are you suggesting have a 10.6 partition? That or install 10.6 on an external drive would work presumably.
This is a classic example of needing ID to get ID. In this case, needing the OS in order to download the OS.
I think this problem could be solved in future Macs if they started building a small memory module into the logic board that would contain 'downloaded' source OS files ready to install. This would seem a smarter solution to the separate HDD partition, allowing for painless HDD upgrades. You'd still be able to download from the App Store and store on your new machine separate from the HDD you're planning on upgrading.
no sure when it would happen. but HDD will go away. thunderbolt has enough speed for pc to move away from including big HDD when a new pc is shipped.
I'd prefer to have a manual way to rebuild my OS when it dies, rather than trying to deal with someone else holding on to the source files.
Thanks anyway.
If you are just upgrading this makes a lot of sense, probably will be much cheaper. Who knows though, they may simply provide download of a tool that can either install from the downloaded dmg or burn a disc for you, save Apple a ton in manufacturing costs & if each update includes new version of the install then ideally saves users money on having to buy new media.
no sure when it would happen. but HDD will go away. thunderbolt has enough speed for pc to move away from including big HDD when a new pc is shipped.
I don't follow what you mean. Are you talking about PCs shipping with no hard drive? No internal drive? Even with TB you'll still have an external drive (someday maybe all SSD instead of conventional HD, but that's a long way away). I don't get it.
Why would it be unlikely? Apple realizes that people will have drives crash, I would think they would ENCOURAGE people to have a bootable backup whether it's on another drive, a thumb drive, or burned to DVD. You have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.
No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made, and there's been no announcement that this one will either.
I don't follow what you mean. Are you talking about PCs shipping with no hard drive? No internal drive? Even with TB you'll still have an external drive (someday maybe all SSD instead of conventional HD, but that's a long way away). I don't get it.
a small SSD drive, 64G, would be enough for bootloader etc. the rest of data, including OS, will be stored at external drives via thunderbolt link. those external drives will be also SSD as HDD can not speed up enough to handle thunderbolt speed of 1000MB/s. or at least SSD is needed for buffering access to HDD drives, otherwise, thunderbolt link will be under utilized.
No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made
What are you talking about?
Except if by "allowed" you mean legally, you could easily make a backup disc of any previous OS X version. Even a backup USB stick.
Oh, and even if you meant that didn't allowed for a backup legally: who cares, people did it all the time, it's not like Apple is gonna search your house for backups of LEGALLY owned cds....
I believe Lion creates a rescue partition on your hard drive from which you can boot to repair the main partition and/or redownload the OS if necessary.
doesn't help if your drive fails...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave
pro: one less disc to keep track of. my family already lost my iWork disc.
cons: what if i want to format the hard drive and restart from scratch? or even just archive and install? what if i completely replace my hard drive? what if i want to sell my mac and get a new one, would i retain the license or would the buyer get it? how would they reinstall the OS after I wipe the hard drive? how long is this going to take to download? will we be able and authorized to burn our own install DVDs from the downloaded software?
I'm sure Apple is smart enough to think of that... and will have something thats an option. Maybe when you purchase Lion in the Mac App Store they'll also send a DVD or USB stick to you.. maybe for an extra fee...
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder
Can you boot from a time machine backup?
nope
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
The main thing that worries me about the new setup is that not every install disk is equal when it comes to OS-X.
I had a situation just today where a whole set of brand new iMacs refused to load the OS CD using the "c" key trick, or by using the install program on the disc. We thought the first machine had a bad CD or a bad drive at first so we tried another machine and had the same problem. Simply refuses to install.
Tried multiple retail Snow Leopard discs on multiple computers manufactured at diff times during Snow Leopards run and all of them failed completely (but in slightly different ways), and hung the computer.
When we tried the grey disc that comes in the box with that particular computer it worked fine, first time. The OS-X install discs don't seem to be all the same, and they don't always work for all machines.
The Grey CD's will not be shipped if they drop the optical drive, but hopefully they do that USB stick thing still because if you don't have the original disc that came with that particular machine you might be completely up the creek some day.
This is perfectly normal. Your older retail discs didn't have the drivers for the new Macs.... there was no way for it to operate, so it wouldn't work.. you needed the discs that came with it that was probably already 10.6.7 with the newer drivers for the newer machines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue
There are apps that I use very occasionally, some of which cost quite a bit (Photoshop plug-ins for example) that I can't justify spending on again just for a bit of playing around now and again.
I wasn't quite sure what that picture was showing me. Are you suggesting have a 10.6 partition? That or install 10.6 on an external drive would work presumably.
that was SheepSaver, an emulator for Classic... that will not even work for you, thats only for running software before Mac OS X. If you have PPC Mac OS X software, theres not much you can do but find some non-PPC replacement or upgrade.
that won't do a lot of good if your hard drive fails, or if you decide to replace it.
That's the problem we see all the time with Acer and HP and Dell and all the other companies.
At least if Apple distributes it like they did with XCode you can keep the installation application on another drive then if need be install from the original restore disks and then run the installer. Would take little more than an hour to do I would imagine.
Not so the other companies I mentioned. Getting the restore disks off them once I've replaced the HDD in their machines makes collecting hen's teeth considerably easier.
No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made, and there's been no announcement that this one will either.
There has been no announcement AT ALL. No announcement of ANYTHING.
Previous versions are irrelevant, delivering it this way is a first for apple so precedent from those OS releases is absolutely meaningless.
Again, you have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anakin1992
a small SSD drive, 64G, would be enough for bootloader etc. the rest of data, including OS, will be stored at external drives via thunderbolt link. those external drives will be also SSD as HDD can not speed up enough to handle thunderbolt speed of 1000MB/s. or at least SSD is needed for buffering access to HDD drives, otherwise, thunderbolt link will be under utilized.
I don't agree at all. Starting to put external drives on every machine would be a step backwards - the reason you do external is because the internal you have is already full. We will see more and more SSD but HD isn't going away for a long time (if ever) since it is so much more expensive (and for small capacities) and many people simply don't need SSD speed for everything (particularly large amounts of data like music and video libraries).
Thunderbolt is a nice addition, but it doesn't replace internal drive busses, which are plenty fast and likely to get faster before we see drives that are too fast for SATA III. Thunderbolt WILL be underutilized, particularly in the early part of its release, but that's not a big deal and no reason to totally change how computers are set up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123
I'm sure Apple is smart enough to think of that... and will have something thats an option. Maybe when you purchase Lion in the Mac App Store they'll also send a DVD or USB stick to you.. maybe for an extra fee...
Or just have you burn your own DVD or create a bootable thumb drive. No need to send a physical copy to someone who just downloaded it.
Depends on your download speed. With my lowly 8 Mbps DSL it takes around 2-3 hours.
Way faster than waiting for physical media.
if the process of loading new OS from appstore is different from that physical media where everything is stored on the disc, downloading might be faster to boot up the new OS and then component-ize the rest. some optimizations have to be there.
I don't agree at all. Starting to put external drives on every machine would be a step backwards - the reason you do external is because the internal you have is already full. We will see more and more SSD but HD isn't going away for a long time (if ever) since it is so much more expensive (and for small capacities) and many people simply don't need SSD speed for everything (particularly large amounts of data like music and video libraries).
Thunderbolt is a nice addition, but it doesn't replace internal drive busses, which are plenty fast and likely to get faster before we see drives that are too fast for SATA III. Thunderbolt WILL be underutilized, particularly in the early part of its release, but that's not a big deal and no reason to totally change how computers are set up.
those traditional parallel buses are gone. everything serious for business are point to point serial protocol now, my friend. even those interconnects among multi-cores inside of intel CPUs are all serial protocol. SATA III can not be faster than thunderbolt unless SATA III uses fiber for transport.
the price/performance on SSD vs HDD is not fixed number as SSD will ramp up and cost to build it will go down.
there's been a lot of announcements, actually. Apple even has a section of their site dedicated to these announcements.
I meant that apple hasn't made a single announcement about how 10.7 will be sold and distributed.
In case you missed it, this article is a RUMOR and while my guess is that it's likely true, since it hasn't been announced by Apple, the full facts aren't known yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anakin1992
those traditional parallel buses are gone. everything serious for business are point to point serial protocol now, my friend. even those interconnects among multi-cores inside of intel CPUs are all serial protocol. SATA III can not be faster than thunderbolt unless SATA III uses fiber for transport.
the price/performance on SSD vs HDD is not fixed number as SSD will ramp up and cost to build it will go down.
What do you mean those busses are gone? Last I checked they're on every last computer sold. And what do you mean by "serious for business"? SATA is huge overkill already for the vast majority of "business" use. If future SATA needs higher speeds than copper can handle, then future versions would switch to fiber. Or they'll just create an internal version of TB or a similar standard. But HDD isn't going away any time soon, nor are drives going to suddenly switch from internal to external just because TB came along. And of course SSD will get cheaper, but the point where it gets cheap enough (and cheap for big drives) to kill off HD is years away.
I meant that apple hasn't made a single announcement about how 10.7 will be sold and distributed.
well, I made a post that there wasn't an announcement on how this OS would differ from previous versions as far as making backup copies. don't respond to my post if you're only going to pretend you're talking about the same subject.
Comments
IF you can, which is unlikely.
Why would it be unlikely? Apple realizes that people will have drives crash, I would think they would ENCOURAGE people to have a bootable backup whether it's on another drive, a thumb drive, or burned to DVD. You have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.
I think this problem could be solved in future Macs if they started building a small memory module into the logic board that would contain 'downloaded' source OS files ready to install. This would seem a smarter solution to the separate HDD partition, allowing for painless HDD upgrades. You'd still be able to download from the App Store and store on your new machine separate from the HDD you're planning on upgrading.
I?m quite interested in what this means for the license for OS X.
Correct me if I?m wrong, but in the past, the OS X EULA only allowed for it to be installed on a single Mac unless you bought the Family Pack which allowed 4, if I remember correctly (of course, there was nothing stopping you from installing the single license version on multiple Macs).
The Mac App Store only allows software, with a license to be installed on any Mac owned by the same person.
Will the version of Lion available on the Mac App Store be under the same license as the rest of the software on the Store, or will the make an exemption for OS X?
Along similar lines, I was just thinking that the Mac App Store is an effective anti-piracy tool. I have to assume that apps still come wrapped in some kind of DRM (am I wrong?), so rather than go the Microsoft route of forcing people to activate their software, punch in product keys, etc. etc., simply wrap the program in DRM and force the purchase through a store that requires authentication/verification of your ownership credentials. That said, for a major piece of software like the OS, I have to imagine Apple will continue to offer physical media sales, or at least an option of burning some kind of disc image or creating a bootable flash image.
What do you believe will run on PowerPC that doesn't have a newer version on Intel?
And why can't you just do what I do about that?
[IMG]V large pic![/IMG]
Sorry about the temporary hugeness if you saw that. Why don't we support the TIMG tag?
There are apps that I use very occasionally, some of which cost quite a bit (Photoshop plug-ins for example) that I can't justify spending on again just for a bit of playing around now and again.
I wasn't quite sure what that picture was showing me. Are you suggesting have a 10.6 partition? That or install 10.6 on an external drive would work presumably.
This is a classic example of needing ID to get ID. In this case, needing the OS in order to download the OS.
I think this problem could be solved in future Macs if they started building a small memory module into the logic board that would contain 'downloaded' source OS files ready to install. This would seem a smarter solution to the separate HDD partition, allowing for painless HDD upgrades. You'd still be able to download from the App Store and store on your new machine separate from the HDD you're planning on upgrading.
no sure when it would happen. but HDD will go away. thunderbolt has enough speed for pc to move away from including big HDD when a new pc is shipped.
I'd prefer to have a manual way to rebuild my OS when it dies, rather than trying to deal with someone else holding on to the source files.
Thanks anyway.
If you are just upgrading this makes a lot of sense, probably will be much cheaper. Who knows though, they may simply provide download of a tool that can either install from the downloaded dmg or burn a disc for you, save Apple a ton in manufacturing costs & if each update includes new version of the install then ideally saves users money on having to buy new media.
no sure when it would happen. but HDD will go away. thunderbolt has enough speed for pc to move away from including big HDD when a new pc is shipped.
I don't follow what you mean. Are you talking about PCs shipping with no hard drive? No internal drive? Even with TB you'll still have an external drive (someday maybe all SSD instead of conventional HD, but that's a long way away). I don't get it.
Why would it be unlikely? Apple realizes that people will have drives crash, I would think they would ENCOURAGE people to have a bootable backup whether it's on another drive, a thumb drive, or burned to DVD. You have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.
No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made, and there's been no announcement that this one will either.
and how long will this take to download?????
Depends on your download speed. With my lowly 8 Mbps DSL it takes around 2-3 hours.
Way faster than waiting for physical media.
I don't follow what you mean. Are you talking about PCs shipping with no hard drive? No internal drive? Even with TB you'll still have an external drive (someday maybe all SSD instead of conventional HD, but that's a long way away). I don't get it.
a small SSD drive, 64G, would be enough for bootloader etc. the rest of data, including OS, will be stored at external drives via thunderbolt link. those external drives will be also SSD as HDD can not speed up enough to handle thunderbolt speed of 1000MB/s. or at least SSD is needed for buffering access to HDD drives, otherwise, thunderbolt link will be under utilized.
No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made
What are you talking about?
Except if by "allowed" you mean legally, you could easily make a backup disc of any previous OS X version. Even a backup USB stick.
Oh, and even if you meant that didn't allowed for a backup legally: who cares, people did it all the time, it's not like Apple is gonna search your house for backups of LEGALLY owned cds....
I believe Lion creates a rescue partition on your hard drive from which you can boot to repair the main partition and/or redownload the OS if necessary.
doesn't help if your drive fails...
pro: one less disc to keep track of. my family already lost my iWork disc.
cons: what if i want to format the hard drive and restart from scratch? or even just archive and install? what if i completely replace my hard drive? what if i want to sell my mac and get a new one, would i retain the license or would the buyer get it? how would they reinstall the OS after I wipe the hard drive? how long is this going to take to download? will we be able and authorized to burn our own install DVDs from the downloaded software?
I'm sure Apple is smart enough to think of that... and will have something thats an option. Maybe when you purchase Lion in the Mac App Store they'll also send a DVD or USB stick to you.. maybe for an extra fee...
Can you boot from a time machine backup?
nope
The main thing that worries me about the new setup is that not every install disk is equal when it comes to OS-X.
I had a situation just today where a whole set of brand new iMacs refused to load the OS CD using the "c" key trick, or by using the install program on the disc. We thought the first machine had a bad CD or a bad drive at first so we tried another machine and had the same problem. Simply refuses to install.
Tried multiple retail Snow Leopard discs on multiple computers manufactured at diff times during Snow Leopards run and all of them failed completely (but in slightly different ways), and hung the computer.
When we tried the grey disc that comes in the box with that particular computer it worked fine, first time. The OS-X install discs don't seem to be all the same, and they don't always work for all machines.
The Grey CD's will not be shipped if they drop the optical drive, but hopefully they do that USB stick thing still because if you don't have the original disc that came with that particular machine you might be completely up the creek some day.
This is perfectly normal. Your older retail discs didn't have the drivers for the new Macs.... there was no way for it to operate, so it wouldn't work.. you needed the discs that came with it that was probably already 10.6.7 with the newer drivers for the newer machines.
There are apps that I use very occasionally, some of which cost quite a bit (Photoshop plug-ins for example) that I can't justify spending on again just for a bit of playing around now and again.
I wasn't quite sure what that picture was showing me. Are you suggesting have a 10.6 partition? That or install 10.6 on an external drive would work presumably.
that was SheepSaver, an emulator for Classic... that will not even work for you, thats only for running software before Mac OS X. If you have PPC Mac OS X software, theres not much you can do but find some non-PPC replacement or upgrade.
that won't do a lot of good if your hard drive fails, or if you decide to replace it.
That's the problem we see all the time with Acer and HP and Dell and all the other companies.
At least if Apple distributes it like they did with XCode you can keep the installation application on another drive then if need be install from the original restore disks and then run the installer. Would take little more than an hour to do I would imagine.
Not so the other companies I mentioned. Getting the restore disks off them once I've replaced the HDD in their machines makes collecting hen's teeth considerably easier.
No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made, and there's been no announcement that this one will either.
There has been no announcement AT ALL. No announcement of ANYTHING.
Previous versions are irrelevant, delivering it this way is a first for apple so precedent from those OS releases is absolutely meaningless.
Again, you have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.
a small SSD drive, 64G, would be enough for bootloader etc. the rest of data, including OS, will be stored at external drives via thunderbolt link. those external drives will be also SSD as HDD can not speed up enough to handle thunderbolt speed of 1000MB/s. or at least SSD is needed for buffering access to HDD drives, otherwise, thunderbolt link will be under utilized.
I don't agree at all. Starting to put external drives on every machine would be a step backwards - the reason you do external is because the internal you have is already full. We will see more and more SSD but HD isn't going away for a long time (if ever) since it is so much more expensive (and for small capacities) and many people simply don't need SSD speed for everything (particularly large amounts of data like music and video libraries).
Thunderbolt is a nice addition, but it doesn't replace internal drive busses, which are plenty fast and likely to get faster before we see drives that are too fast for SATA III. Thunderbolt WILL be underutilized, particularly in the early part of its release, but that's not a big deal and no reason to totally change how computers are set up.
I'm sure Apple is smart enough to think of that... and will have something thats an option. Maybe when you purchase Lion in the Mac App Store they'll also send a DVD or USB stick to you.. maybe for an extra fee...
Or just have you burn your own DVD or create a bootable thumb drive. No need to send a physical copy to someone who just downloaded it.
Depends on your download speed. With my lowly 8 Mbps DSL it takes around 2-3 hours.
Way faster than waiting for physical media.
if the process of loading new OS from appstore is different from that physical media where everything is stored on the disc, downloading might be faster to boot up the new OS and then component-ize the rest. some optimizations have to be there.
There has been no announcement AT ALL. No announcement of ANYTHING.
there's been a lot of announcements, actually. Apple even has a section of their site dedicated to these announcements.
I don't agree at all. Starting to put external drives on every machine would be a step backwards - the reason you do external is because the internal you have is already full. We will see more and more SSD but HD isn't going away for a long time (if ever) since it is so much more expensive (and for small capacities) and many people simply don't need SSD speed for everything (particularly large amounts of data like music and video libraries).
Thunderbolt is a nice addition, but it doesn't replace internal drive busses, which are plenty fast and likely to get faster before we see drives that are too fast for SATA III. Thunderbolt WILL be underutilized, particularly in the early part of its release, but that's not a big deal and no reason to totally change how computers are set up.
those traditional parallel buses are gone. everything serious for business are point to point serial protocol now, my friend. even those interconnects among multi-cores inside of intel CPUs are all serial protocol. SATA III can not be faster than thunderbolt unless SATA III uses fiber for transport.
the price/performance on SSD vs HDD is not fixed number as SSD will ramp up and cost to build it will go down.
there's been a lot of announcements, actually. Apple even has a section of their site dedicated to these announcements.
I meant that apple hasn't made a single announcement about how 10.7 will be sold and distributed.
In case you missed it, this article is a RUMOR and while my guess is that it's likely true, since it hasn't been announced by Apple, the full facts aren't known yet.
those traditional parallel buses are gone. everything serious for business are point to point serial protocol now, my friend. even those interconnects among multi-cores inside of intel CPUs are all serial protocol. SATA III can not be faster than thunderbolt unless SATA III uses fiber for transport.
the price/performance on SSD vs HDD is not fixed number as SSD will ramp up and cost to build it will go down.
What do you mean those busses are gone? Last I checked they're on every last computer sold. And what do you mean by "serious for business"? SATA is huge overkill already for the vast majority of "business" use. If future SATA needs higher speeds than copper can handle, then future versions would switch to fiber. Or they'll just create an internal version of TB or a similar standard. But HDD isn't going away any time soon, nor are drives going to suddenly switch from internal to external just because TB came along. And of course SSD will get cheaper, but the point where it gets cheap enough (and cheap for big drives) to kill off HD is years away.
I meant that apple hasn't made a single announcement about how 10.7 will be sold and distributed.
well, I made a post that there wasn't an announcement on how this OS would differ from previous versions as far as making backup copies. don't respond to my post if you're only going to pretend you're talking about the same subject.