36 months = $720 vs $499. for iPad which has browser and multiple education apps.
Need a a keyboard - Bluetooth $69. Need an external monitor $100 plus a connector. Damn good system, still less than $720.
What infrastructure does Google have to services the scools. Google just want the added advert impressions on the school kids.
However, could be a threat to the netbooks out there.
I reckon Apple can offer iPads with the same deal.
Oh, so that ipad price has tech support and software support built into the price? You get it for a year. Add apple care.
Oh and add another $500 because in 36months (or possibly sooner) they GIVE you a new laptop with bumped up specs as the OS provides so you NEVER have to purchase new hardware.
And a ton of schools use GApps for their email/back end clients already.
I get that this is from Google, so a lot of people are quick to hate on it for soley that reason, but this is a new product geared to a wholly underrepresented market.
The local highschool just spent MILLIONS getting every high school student a laptop. We're one of the last districts in the area to do this and we're by no means a "weathy" district compared to others. Something like this would've been a MUCH better solution for them, on every level. (no upfront cost, built in software/hardware support, minimal virus issues)
Do you HONESTLY thing a school district thinking clearly would buy their students IPADS? To kids that age, the ipad is almost exclusively a TOY (with few exceptions) and one that would be largely used for non-school related matters. No, they got bottom of the barrel ACER laptops.
That's the comparison you guys need to think about. This is NOT something to replace the ipad/android/OSX/etc. This is directly geared towards to low end laptop market because it's a significantly better product (how it operates) than laptops with a similar price.
See bold. That's where your argument starts to fall apart. Your usage is not the same as everybody elses. The average persion is certainly not using Final Cut Pro or even iPhoto.
The average person surfs on the browser, watches stuff on youtube, maybe plays a flash based game on the net, checks facebook, checks webmail, etc. Chrome is perfect for all this.
On your other machine. While you can do it, how many people use their iPad as their primary device to edit video?
You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job.
And if there isn't, why can't these be developed? This is seriously flawed logic.
Mostly it isn't. And there isn't anything wrong with that. It's a tad more powerful (being based on a full and proper browser). And it runs a browser people are already familiar with. There's value in that.
Ya' know, sonny...
You're beginning to piss me off!
I find your responses elitist and demeaning.
You seem to think you know what "most people" use computers for -- if you were correct the majority of people would be using netbooks.
BTW, the way -- regarding "You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job."
My first real experience with online data entry was to design and program a system for data entry to an IBM/360.
The year was 1967. I worked for IBM.
We used 24 IBM 1050 Selectric® typewriter terminals (Video terminals weren't available).
The data entry ran 24/7 for six months.
The data entry was done by high school and college students.
The application was to convert 2+ million 3x5 index cards to online data for the Clark County, NV Sheriff's Department. Las Vegas
Some notable items:
there was no format to the information -- it evolved over decades
none of the information was field-encoded (name, address, etc,)
some cards were typed, many were handwritten with things stapled to them and written on the back
many of the cards were ripped, taped, folded -- even rolled and dipped in coffee
the IBM terminals would disintegrate after a week of continuous use -- not built for that
We gave the data entry people 2 days training.
They would encode each item of information as follows:
XX=yyyyyyyyy return
where XX=was 2-3 digit code, and yyyyyyy was the data
codes were things like: fn, ln fp1 (fingerprint 1)...
After each shift we would print the records and computer check codes and content for anomalies. If we ran into an unexpected data field we would generate a new code, and adjust the editing program
Each day, the shift officer in charge would review the results with each DE operator.
Bonuses/raises were awarded for performance.
After about three weeks, we pretty much had encountered all the varying fields of information -- and so we began the database design (hand programmed -- no SQL in those days).
The effort was a resounding success -- I got a bonus and a promotion -- as did several members of the Sheriff's department and the Computer Center staff.
In the intervening years I've done lots of data entry apps including writing web shopping carts in JavaScript, Perl and ColdFusion.
So, sonny -- why don't you buzz off (to put it nicely) and stop telling me what I do and don't know, have seen or understand!
They're already leasing hardware.For the same $28 / mo, they're getting a decent desktop system that runs all their existing software and that doesn't require them to retrain their employees or lose productivity while the employee tries to figure out how to make the thing work.
If your employees have a tough time figuring out how to work a web browser and your IT section needs to be retrained to support an OS that is essentially a web browser with the simplest hardware possible, you have much bigger problems than a simple tech changeover!
As for the cost, companies will decide on merit, of course. But I strongly suspect that if you use Google Apps already, there will be a strong case to go for Chrome. No more worrying about viruses. No more worrying about managing software baselines, etc. No more managing upgrades. Google does all that for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Not to mention no need to take a risk on an unproven platform from an unproven hardware vendor.
Right....
I'm sure many of these companies have no experience dealing with Google from their years using Google Apps. And Samsung or Acer? Unproven hardware suppliers. Both of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
What possible advantage is there? The overwhelming majority of enterprise computers are desktops, so the portability is actually a DISadvantage.
...and that's why they have desktop boxes on the way. BYOMKB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
And the small number of people who do need portable computers will probably not find these sub-netbook systems to be suitable.
So quick to pass judgement. People said that about the iPad too.
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
The iPad, assuming on the net, has as much storage as a chromebook, no?
Assuming Apple comes out with "iCloud" then sure. Otherwise, not really.
Quote:
The iPad with a good keyboard dock is just as viable for writing essays. Even more so for a tablet like the Eee Pad Transformer. All three have netbook style keyboards as near as I can tell.
I'd rather have an Android or iOS tablet.
The transformer is a better option in this case then since it's the traditional laptop form factor so it's significantly more mobile than a tablet/dock pairing.
The big elephant in the room though is Chrome's "Login anywhere" ability though. A company could literally keep 20 of these in their office, you come in the morning, grab one (any one) and log in, and all your information is right at your fingertips for you. This is potentially HUGE for schools.
My school has "Laptop labs" where the prof would bring in a big filing cabinet full of laptops for students to work on. We had to buy our own flash drives, and there were more than a few projects I lost because I forgot to save it before I shut the computer down. Now, a student could get ANY of those laptops, log in, and all their information would be at their fingertips, and automatically synced with their account every few seconds so information wouldn't be lost.
Since a lot of schools use Gapps for email already, it wouldn't be that hard to expand their portals to make a document sharing site. Heck, think of it as Blackboard 2.0. Google could even develop a custom build of Chrome for Windows/Mac that would act as a "Virtual PC" for the students on their personal computer (or they could get all the information the "old" way through gmail)
A local coffee shop could have the Chrome thinclients available. Then if a normal customer was there, it would give them the full browser (via a guest login) but students could access ALL their work from these computers.
I'd personally use a Tablet too, but I am not a student. If I was, what I would want more than anything was something that prevented me from accidentally losing 3 hours of work on a final project because I forgot my Zip Drive in the dorm room.
Quote:
Except that MS Office is in the cloud as well and costs $6 per month for business users. Not $28. And you can deploy to your own servers which schools systems already maintains.
Which are largely running windows XP and woefully outdated. So add Tech support, obsolete hardware replacement, etc to that $6 a month.
Quote:
There's no need to deploy thin clients when most students bring a real laptop to school with them. $28/month vs $0/month. Or less than $6 if you want to deploy MS Office 360.
Besides that schools can't depend on students having their own computers. And even if they could, they still need to offer computers in public places (labs, library, etc) for the few that don't. These are often outdated beige boxes that are slow as molasses and frequently break down, requiring expensive tech support.
again, a lot of schools are still running on XP era hardware and software. They need to upgrade anyway. And $28 a month with free hardware upgrades is a VERY attractive offer.
Quote:
Nobody is dismissing it just because it came from Google as much as the only reason it has any credibility is because it comes from Google.
Given how easily is seems HB Gary got compromised on Google I'd sure as hell not use GMail and Google Apps for business. The weakest link, even at a security company, is the executive staff. At least two-factor is available on Google apps but it's a real pain in the ass.
It's not a pain in the ass, well, no more than 2 step authentication is anyway. On top of that, companies like VMware and the like could easily create virtual machines that are compatible with the books, adding a second layer of security. They already do with Android.
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
From your very first response to Dick you have been kind of a jerk. He was being patient with you in not calling you out sooner.
From your very first response to Dick you have been kind of a jerk. He was being patient with you in not calling you out sooner.
From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.
I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.
His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."
Several posters here are supportive of the Chrome OS and the ChromeBook.
I don't see it... yet!
Do you guys promoting the concept have some actual "hands-on" experience?
If so, where can I get some?
Help me see the light!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
It's just launched. Obviously we don't have first hand experience. But some of us can use logic to see how things would work. And there have been more than enough demos out there to form an informed opinion. And really....it's a freaking web browser. It'll run like Chrome on your desktop.
Tell me, did you think the iPad was going to be a hit before you got your hands on one?
If you did, why would you suggest that this can't be successful without trying it out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
In several posts I said that I could not make a logical or factual evaluation of the Chrome OS/ChromeBook because i had insufficient knowledge and no experience with either.
Because several of you were singing the virtues on this approach, I made the post (first above) requesting where I could educate myself -- so I could make a logical and factual evaluation.
Your response (second above) admits you have no experience, and, I guess no facts.
So I guess you are debating by logic alone, with no facts or experience -- how logical is that?
No offence but I think you are 100% wrong on this. I work in Education and these things just don't fit the use cases at all.
I see no reason why most Liberal Arts students would need anything more than this. And for the rare occasions that they do, they can use a computer lad that's better equipped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
These things are too expensive, too underpowered and just don't have the necessary apps.
1) $429 is too expensive, but a $500 iPad (like some have argued for) is okay???
2) Underpowered? About the same horsepower as an iPad.
3) Don't have the necessary apps? Judgement call. For most people a browser and Google's web apps would suffice for all their work. But again, nobody says this will be the only machine they use for everything.
[QUOTE=Prof. Peabody;1862494]
Nor is there any reasonable expectation they can get them in the near future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Education needs are completely different from just editing a document and cruising the web.
And you use different machines for difference functions. I didn't go to the CAD lad to surf the web in university.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Most students need to edit video at a minimum,
No they dont. Four years of aerospace engineering here. I never saw a need to edit a video for a class. Maybe for a personal project. But for a class, no way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
....and there are dozens of specialty apps that simply won't be available.
And for that there will always be PC labs where you can go use those apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Also, where is the support? Is Google "in the schools?" No. Do they have reps visiting schools finding out what apps are needed and what they can do to fix things or help out? No.
Apple does.
Geez man. They just announced the concept. Let the details come out. You're writing it off before they even lay out how it will work. And you're forgetting Google Apps. How does Google support large institutions that deploy Google Apps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
In addition ... schools that do need word processing need Word. Anyone with any tech talent knows MS Word is POS but it's the standard format that everyone uses and it can't be gotten around. Apple is in the schools every day, supporting their needs and *still* they can't get them to switch Word for Pages even though Pages is a better product. A school can'st simply just switch to Google Docs overnight (or even over a matter of years). Ain't gonna happen.
You should pay closer attention to the kids. It's become more and more common to use Google Docs because it allows for collaborative work in real time. Word has been a standard because it allowed for compatibility across machines. Google Docs and a browser does the same thing.
And nobody "needs" Word. I have yet to see a Prof specify which word processor I would have to use. They don't care what you use as long as a printed essay lands in the dropbox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Also, something most people aren't aware of ... most governments and educational institutions outside of the USA can't use Google Docs at all. Period. The reason being that it's illegal to have personal information stored on computers outside of the country. In Canada, it's a violation of the privacy act for example for a school to use Google docs. Some do it anyway but only a small number.
That ruling applies to PERSONAL INFORMATION as in your student number, name, class schedule, etc....basically the school's admin systems. There is nothing preventing the institutions from using Google Apps to provide email services.
[QUOTE=Prof. Peabody;1862522]I've never seen such a setup.
I was talking "class sets" of machines bought for schools (elementary and high school), for educational use. These chromebooks are just no good for that at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
I work at a University so I'm not sure what a US college is like. Colleges are a whole different thing up here. In Canada, colleges are budget places where you go to prepare for University usually because you can't afford the University or your grades are poor or you are starting late in life etc. Regular students go from high-school direct to University unless their grades aren't good enough.
WHAT UTTER ELITIST GARBAGE. For the Americans on here, colleges in Canada are like Junior colleges in the US. They are actually a cut above. They focus on skilled education (training technologists for example) and some offer applied degree programs. And no, they are not meant for people who just got bad grades in high school....unless you prefer the aircraft mechanic who touched your last airplane to be an academic underachiever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
The Universities generally have multiple, large computer labs fitted out with multi-purpose computers (Mac or PC). They are secured, and the applications are controlled, but they all have Word. I don't think I've even seen a computer without MS Office on it for years.
I have. My CAD stations in university were UNIX workstations without MS suites on there. You went in that lab just to do CAD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
I've never heard of one that "locked a lab down" to be only "browsers only" for any purpose.
Quite common in the computers at any university or public library.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
I'm not sure what the point would be for a college or university to buy all that hardware/software and then only allow people to browse? and only within the college admissions system???
So that they don't hog the machine. You register. And get off. Reference terminals at libraries work like this too. You look up the book you're searching for and get off the machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Also, by the time you get to University, if you don't have your own computer you would be in a very, very, tiny minority.
And if you have a Chromebook, you'll still have a computer. This would be on par with using an iPad. Just with a more traditional laptop feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
You have to be rich to go to University or upper-middle class at least. Why would you not have your own laptop even if it wasn't a new one?
Ahhh yes. All the Liberals Arts students who hung out at Starbucks with their Macbooks. God forbid, people actually buy machines that are appropriate to their needs.
The iPad, assuming on the net, has as much storage as a chromebook, no?
The iPad with a good keyboard dock is just as viable for writing essays. Even more so for a tablet like the Eee Pad Transformer. All three have netbook style keyboards as near as I can tell.
I'd rather have an Android or iOS tablet.
I fully agree. That's why I said, an iPad 1 would a good competitor. Because you can do more with a tablet because of its form (and added sensors). That said, for pounding out an essay, nothing beats a decent sized screen, a keyboard and a mouse (or trackpad). And a Chromebook comes fairly close for that function. It'll feel and function like a regular laptop. You'll be able to plug in accessories too, like a regular laptop. Ultimately, it's meant for light purposes. It's not meant for the kind of stuff that most folks on here do (video and music editing, graphics, etc.).
Cheaper though? Not once you toss in that keyboard dock for the iPad. Samsung is selling a Chromebook for $429. Though, I'd still argue that these things have to get cheaper. But I don't think $429 is a bad starting price for what's essentially a light laptop. They are coming with 11 and 12 inch screens, not the shrunken screens and keyboards of most netbooks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
Except that MS Office is in the cloud as well and costs $6 per month for business users.
That's on top of the cost of the laptop and all the support to administer those laptops. But again, you don't have to lease. You can buy the laptops and just run off Google Apps for a lot less than $6 per user.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
Not $28. And you can deploy to your own servers which schools systems already maintains.
And institutions will ultimately have to work out whether the cost of maintaining those servers and managing those laptops is worthwhile when it can all be outsourced to Google.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
There's no need to deploy thin clients when most students bring a real laptop to school with them.
There's a huge chunk of the world, where not every student can bring a laptop to school. There are uses for this. But even where every student can afford a laptop, why should their parents be spending more than is necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
$28/month vs $0/month. Or less than $6 if you want to deploy MS Office 360.
It's $20 actually for education users. That includes, the laptop, the software and management by Google. Alternatively, you don't lease. You just buy Chromebooks and manage everything yourself. Just buy Google Apps from El Goog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
Nobody is dismissing it just because it came from Google as much as the only reason it has any credibility is because it comes from Google.
I think there are some on here who are specifically dismissing it because it was from Google. If the same concept was launched as an Apple concept, specifically for the education sector, Jobs would be held up as a visionary doing great things for school kids everywhere.
I'm not saying this is perfect. Nor am I predicting success. What I find incredulous is how quickly people write off what seems like a good idea just because Google put it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
Given how easily is seems HB Gary got compromised on Google I'd sure as hell not use GMail and Google Apps for business. The weakest link, even at a security company, is the executive staff. At least two-factor is available on Google apps but it's a real pain in the ass.
Fair enough. That's you. Nobody says that what's right for you, is necessarily right across the board, for everybody.
4) What do you get that is worth a $20 month subscription?
5) Is a carrier contract or additional monthly charge for cell access?
How does this compete with an iPad at $499 (no subscription, no contract, month-by-month cell)
It might make sense in it were offered a package (hardware, software, subscription, cell data) for, say $20 up front and a 23 month contract at $20/month.
Otherwise... I must really be missing somethin'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I trying not to be obtuse here...
But, I see the ChromeBook as a dumbed-down netbook.
Last century, when I owned the computer stores, we sold a lot of computers and networks into education, from elementary thru colleges.
It takes a concerted effort to sell and support this environment... especially now with WiFi and/or back room servers.
Schools don't have much flexibility on what they can buy -- in CA, the schools often get money to spend on physical plant -- but none for teachers and supplies.
I do not believe that districts will be willing to replace already-paid-for computers with $20-per-month-forever plans... just my opinion.
Is there somewhere I can download the Chrome OS package to run on a Mac or Parallels PC so that I can see what it is and what it isn't?
Several posters here are supportive of the Chrome OS and the ChromeBook.
I don't see it... yet!
Do you guys promoting the concept have some actual "hands-on" experience?
If so, where can I get some?
Help me see the light!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
But, apparently, it has been in use by business for a while.
I do understand the concept of a laptop. I have one. I have looked at netbooks -- never wanted one.
So, along comes a special, low-cost? laptop that just runs a web browser and some local copies of web apps.
Pardon me, but it is a leap in logic (at least for me) to assume that a browser and some web apps can do what I or any of the other 4 members of the household do on their computers.
Everyone can do surfing, email, WP, SS, etc. -- those are "meets min" for any computing device.
Can you create and edit a simple movie on a ChromeBook? We do this daily.
What about games or other specialty apps?
They say you can run apps while off line. What apps?
To me, the whole issue is going to be about:
1) the apps available for the device
2) whether these apps can satisfy the bulk of a person's computer needs
3) the cost
At $1,008 ($28 per month for 36 months) I can buy a pretty nice iPad, BT KB, and lots of apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
See my earlier post!
Simply stated, the web provides about 10% of what we (5 people) use computers for -- it'd be a lot less if I didn't follow these forums.
When I'm at my Mac I typically use several apps. Currently I am using:
-- Safari
-- Mail
-- Interactive Brokers Stocktrader (done for the day, but monitor after-hour trades and news)
-- GarageBand
-- Apple FCP Motion 4
-- QuickTime 7
-- iPhoto
-- iTunes
Sure, some of this I can do through a Web OS -- but where, how do I do the things that can't?
I can visualize classes of uses (not users) where limited Web-based apps would be sufficient.
However, I do not believe that Web-based apps are sufficient to satisfy most uses in business, home and personal.
For example: is there a ChromeOS app to teach math; Spanish; how to tell time...
Edit: I know I'm gonna' get zapped for this...
But how is ChromeOS/ChromeBook different than WebTV with a built-in display?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Here's an interesting question:
Will there be a Chrome-based tablet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Right now, I can't answer all your questions -- I don't have enough knowledge.
I will reserve final opinion until I do some research.
In the mean time, I will play devil's advocate.
I do have some pretty good intuition and 55 years worth of experience with computers and their predecessors.
As I understand the ChromeBook/Chrome OS offering it has to get critical mass to be broadly accepted.
I have yet to see anything to convince me that it will attain that critical mass.
I have seen a series of half-assed, half-hearted Google offerings -- that are announced with great noise -- then left to wither and die.
Who knows -- Chrome may be a whole-assed offering.
But a lot of Chrome's success depends on the enterprise where Microsoft is active and entrenched.
Much as I'd like to see MS get some come-uppance, I don't believe Google has the chops to compete in this arena (neither does Apple).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Ya' know, sonny...
You're beginning to piss me off!
I find your responses elitist and demeaning.
You seem to think you know what "most people" use computers for -- if you were correct the majority of people would be using netbooks.
BTW, the way -- regarding "You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job."
My first real experience with online data entry was to design and program a system for data entry to an IBM/360.
The year was 1967. I worked for IBM.
We used 24 IBM 1050 Selectric® typewriter terminals (Video terminals weren't available).
The data entry ran 24/7 for six months.
The data entry was done by high school and college students.
The application was to convert 2+ million 3x5 index cards to online data for the Clark County, NV Sheriff's Department. Las Vegas
Some notable items:
there was no format to the information -- it evolved over decades
none of the information was field-encoded (name, address, etc,)
some cards were typed, many were handwritten with things stapled to them and written on the back
many of the cards were ripped, taped, folded -- even rolled and dipped in coffee
the IBM terminals would disintegrate after a week of continuous use -- not built for that
We gave the data entry people 2 days training.
They would encode each item of information as follows:
XX=yyyyyyyyy return
where XX=was 2-3 digit code, and yyyyyyy was the data
codes were things like: fn, ln fp1 (fingerprint 1)...
After each shift we would print the records and computer check codes and content for anomalies. If we ran into an unexpected data field we would generate a new code, and adjust the editing program
Each day, the shift officer in charge would review the results with each DE operator.
Bonuses/raises were awarded for performance.
After about three weeks, we pretty much had encountered all the varying fields of information -- and so we began the database design (hand programmed -- no SQL in those days).
The effort was a resounding success -- I got a bonus and a promotion -- as did several members of the Sheriff's department and the Computer Center staff.
In the intervening years I've done lots of data entry apps including writing web shopping carts in JavaScript, Perl and ColdFusion.
So, sonny -- why don't you buzz off (to put it nicely) and stop telling me what I do and don't know, have seen or understand!
Above are all the posts I made to this thread up to your post, below!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno
From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.
I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.
His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."
I did get pissed off at being continually put down (look at the responses to my posts).
Aside from that how do you see that:
"From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that."
Please, read through my posts carefully and let me know -- I do try to use reason and persuasion and try and avoid name calling... but after a while...
If I came across as "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" -- I didn't mean to, and will attempt to correct this.
So if a school only wants 50 computers to serve 250 students at educational pricing of $20 per user, per month that is 250*20 = $5,000 per month or $60,000 per year or $180,000 for the 3 year contract.
Now, to buy 50 iMacs at $1,149.00 that is $57,450 or about 1/3 the cost.
So if a school only wants 50 computers to serve 250 students at educational pricing of $20 per user, per month that is 250*20 = $5,000 per month or $60,000 per year or $180,000 for the 3 year contract.
Now, to buy 50 iMacs as $1,149.00 that is $57,450 or about 1/3 the cost.
Education pricing is $20 per month WITH a Chromebook per user. And that's if you contract with Google. You can buy the laptops at $429 a piece and do all the IT management yourself if you like.
At least try and understand the concept before you trash it.
The leasing offer is not tied to the launch of the OS. It's just a specific service that Google is offering. Companies will be able to make and sell laptops using Chrome OS through normal retail and wholesale channels.
Problem with that is 2 fold: First, Wallstreet's shown it's complete inability to understand the tech market. Look at the past couple of years. They underestimate apple (every quarter) and overestimate some actions by others (Nexus One) even when it's clear to anyone who deals with tech that the Nexus One would NEVER be a big hit for two glaring reasons (before you get to os/hardware)
1) It was available ONLY online
2) It was available ONLY on the smallest major carrier
3) It was largely being sold for full retail
Those three things will kill ANY product trying to sell in the US cellular market. Also, Google posted amazing profits last earning call and the stock still tanked. How "Viable" a product will be is not decided by how the stock fluctuates, at least when it comes to large companies.
The second reason goes back to when Google went public they basically told potential investors that if they wanted to give Google their money, they were welcome to do so, but that Google wouldn't decide policy by what Wallstreet thought they should do. This should be apparent with who their new CEO is.
Profit is obviously important, but Google's making profit.
For the record, I don't think Apple makes policy depending on the moods of wallstreet either. but Google is more up front about that (and advertising is a lot harder to quantify than "we sold x number of Y device")
You can get a C2D with 4GB of RAM for $429? Where???
For starters, that's not what I said. I said that the monthly payment would be the same - and a desktop system would have a LOT longer useful life than one of those Google chapbooks.
But, have it your way. With about 30 seconds of effort, I found:
OK, It's an Athlon dual core rather than a C2D and 3 GB rather than 4, but it will perform very much the same. A little more effort would probably find one for about the same price, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
If your employees have a tough time figuring out how to work a web browser and your IT section needs to be retrained to support an OS that is essentially a web browser with the simplest hardware possible, you have much bigger problems than a simple tech changeover!
As usual, you've missed the entire point. Companies and employees have a workflow pattern. You're proposing completely disrupting that pattern - which costs time and money.
The fact that you have no business experience and therefore don't have any concept of how quickly a few wasted hours of "how do I do this" easily wipes out a few pennies a month in savings is YOUR problem, not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
As for the cost, companies will decide on merit, of course. But I strongly suspect that if you use Google Apps already, there will be a strong case to go for Chrome. No more worrying about viruses. No more worrying about managing software baselines, etc. No more managing upgrades. Google does all that for you.
So companies have to throw away everything they're doing to switch to this crapbook - which doesn't even save them any money? What kind of crazy logic is that?
As for deciding on merit, I'm still waiting for an explanation of why a chapbook for $20 a month is any better than a real computer for the same price for the office environment.
Oh, and that doesn't even get into the MASSIVE security issues of letting Google run your business for you. I can see it now - all your confidential information goes to the highest bidder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
Right....
I'm sure many of these companies have no experience dealing with Google from their years using Google Apps. And Samsung or Acer? Unproven hardware suppliers. Both of them.
So you're now confused with the difference between hardware and software? I'm not surprised.
So the fact that Google has experience with software now makes them experts in hardware? Are you REALLY that stupid?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
So quick to pass judgement. People said that about the iPad too.
Only the stupid ones. The iPad was a completely different story. The iPad was a new paradigm which had massive advantages for the subset of people who wanted the ultimate in mobility for a media consumption device.
The Google crapbook has no advantages at all for the office environment:
- Portability is not an advantage for the office environment, it's a disadvantage because of theft
- It doesn't save any money compared to leasing real PCs
- It requires users to learn a new way of working and throw away their existing tools
- It gives Google access to all your corporate secrets
There's absolutely no advantage to switching from a $25 / month PC to a $25 / month crapbook for the office environment. So far, no one has given any rational basis for that switch.
One MIGHT be able to make such an argument if you're comparing mobile workers, but netbooks are already in that space - so what's the advantage of the crapbook over a netbook? Heck, if you want such limited functionality with a keyboard, you can buy a lot of netbooks for under $400 - and they are fully functional computers not Google Data Entry Terminals.
Is this your own assumption or can you provide a source for this statement?
Gradeschoolers would most likely use a desktop system as the potential for accidents would be signifigantly less (less spills, drops, being stepped on, etc)
And if they were looking at mobile options, something like a Chromebook would still be a better option than an iPad. Think about it. What school board would think it a good idea to give elementary aged kids a big glass screen and ask them to type on it? A netbook form factor provides more protection.
Yep mstone...good points! But if I had a 12 year old daughter, I'd prefer her working on an iPad2 than a google netbook. In spite of the iPad2's limitations!
Is this an emotional response or are there substantive reasons for your preference?
Comments
36 months = $720 vs $499. for iPad which has browser and multiple education apps.
Need a a keyboard - Bluetooth $69. Need an external monitor $100 plus a connector. Damn good system, still less than $720.
What infrastructure does Google have to services the scools. Google just want the added advert impressions on the school kids.
However, could be a threat to the netbooks out there.
I reckon Apple can offer iPads with the same deal.
Oh, so that ipad price has tech support and software support built into the price? You get it for a year. Add apple care.
Oh and add another $500 because in 36months (or possibly sooner) they GIVE you a new laptop with bumped up specs as the OS provides so you NEVER have to purchase new hardware.
And a ton of schools use GApps for their email/back end clients already.
I get that this is from Google, so a lot of people are quick to hate on it for soley that reason, but this is a new product geared to a wholly underrepresented market.
The local highschool just spent MILLIONS getting every high school student a laptop. We're one of the last districts in the area to do this and we're by no means a "weathy" district compared to others. Something like this would've been a MUCH better solution for them, on every level. (no upfront cost, built in software/hardware support, minimal virus issues)
Do you HONESTLY thing a school district thinking clearly would buy their students IPADS? To kids that age, the ipad is almost exclusively a TOY (with few exceptions) and one that would be largely used for non-school related matters. No, they got bottom of the barrel ACER laptops.
That's the comparison you guys need to think about. This is NOT something to replace the ipad/android/OSX/etc. This is directly geared towards to low end laptop market because it's a significantly better product (how it operates) than laptops with a similar price.
See bold. That's where your argument starts to fall apart. Your usage is not the same as everybody elses. The average persion is certainly not using Final Cut Pro or even iPhoto.
The average person surfs on the browser, watches stuff on youtube, maybe plays a flash based game on the net, checks facebook, checks webmail, etc. Chrome is perfect for all this.
On your other machine. While you can do it, how many people use their iPad as their primary device to edit video?
You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job.
And if there isn't, why can't these be developed? This is seriously flawed logic.
Mostly it isn't. And there isn't anything wrong with that. It's a tad more powerful (being based on a full and proper browser). And it runs a browser people are already familiar with. There's value in that.
Ya' know, sonny...
You're beginning to piss me off!
I find your responses elitist and demeaning.
You seem to think you know what "most people" use computers for -- if you were correct the majority of people would be using netbooks.
BTW, the way -- regarding "You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job."
My first real experience with online data entry was to design and program a system for data entry to an IBM/360.
The year was 1967. I worked for IBM.
We used 24 IBM 1050 Selectric® typewriter terminals (Video terminals weren't available).
The data entry ran 24/7 for six months.
The data entry was done by high school and college students.
The application was to convert 2+ million 3x5 index cards to online data for the Clark County, NV Sheriff's Department. Las Vegas
Some notable items:
- there was no format to the information -- it evolved over decades
- none of the information was field-encoded (name, address, etc,)
- some cards were typed, many were handwritten with things stapled to them and written on the back
- many of the cards were ripped, taped, folded -- even rolled and dipped in coffee
- the IBM terminals would disintegrate after a week of continuous use -- not built for that
We gave the data entry people 2 days training.They would encode each item of information as follows:
XX=yyyyyyyyy return
where XX=was 2-3 digit code, and yyyyyyy was the data
codes were things like: fn, ln fp1 (fingerprint 1)...
After each shift we would print the records and computer check codes and content for anomalies. If we ran into an unexpected data field we would generate a new code, and adjust the editing program
Each day, the shift officer in charge would review the results with each DE operator.
Bonuses/raises were awarded for performance.
After about three weeks, we pretty much had encountered all the varying fields of information -- and so we began the database design (hand programmed -- no SQL in those days).
The effort was a resounding success -- I got a bonus and a promotion -- as did several members of the Sheriff's department and the Computer Center staff.
In the intervening years I've done lots of data entry apps including writing web shopping carts in JavaScript, Perl and ColdFusion.
So, sonny -- why don't you buzz off (to put it nicely) and stop telling me what I do and don't know, have seen or understand!
Obviously including you.
Ahhh, you're back....your acrimonious ways.
They're already leasing hardware.For the same $28 / mo, they're getting a decent desktop system that runs all their existing software and that doesn't require them to retrain their employees or lose productivity while the employee tries to figure out how to make the thing work.
If your employees have a tough time figuring out how to work a web browser and your IT section needs to be retrained to support an OS that is essentially a web browser with the simplest hardware possible, you have much bigger problems than a simple tech changeover!
As for the cost, companies will decide on merit, of course. But I strongly suspect that if you use Google Apps already, there will be a strong case to go for Chrome. No more worrying about viruses. No more worrying about managing software baselines, etc. No more managing upgrades. Google does all that for you.
Not to mention no need to take a risk on an unproven platform from an unproven hardware vendor.
Right....
I'm sure many of these companies have no experience dealing with Google from their years using Google Apps. And Samsung or Acer? Unproven hardware suppliers. Both of them.
What possible advantage is there? The overwhelming majority of enterprise computers are desktops, so the portability is actually a DISadvantage.
...and that's why they have desktop boxes on the way. BYOMKB.
And the small number of people who do need portable computers will probably not find these sub-netbook systems to be suitable.
So quick to pass judgement. People said that about the iPad too.
Ya' know, sonny...
You're beginning to piss me off!
I find your responses elitist and demeaning.
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
The iPad, assuming on the net, has as much storage as a chromebook, no?
Assuming Apple comes out with "iCloud" then sure. Otherwise, not really.
The iPad with a good keyboard dock is just as viable for writing essays. Even more so for a tablet like the Eee Pad Transformer. All three have netbook style keyboards as near as I can tell.
I'd rather have an Android or iOS tablet.
The transformer is a better option in this case then since it's the traditional laptop form factor so it's significantly more mobile than a tablet/dock pairing.
The big elephant in the room though is Chrome's "Login anywhere" ability though. A company could literally keep 20 of these in their office, you come in the morning, grab one (any one) and log in, and all your information is right at your fingertips for you. This is potentially HUGE for schools.
My school has "Laptop labs" where the prof would bring in a big filing cabinet full of laptops for students to work on. We had to buy our own flash drives, and there were more than a few projects I lost because I forgot to save it before I shut the computer down. Now, a student could get ANY of those laptops, log in, and all their information would be at their fingertips, and automatically synced with their account every few seconds so information wouldn't be lost.
Since a lot of schools use Gapps for email already, it wouldn't be that hard to expand their portals to make a document sharing site. Heck, think of it as Blackboard 2.0. Google could even develop a custom build of Chrome for Windows/Mac that would act as a "Virtual PC" for the students on their personal computer (or they could get all the information the "old" way through gmail)
A local coffee shop could have the Chrome thinclients available. Then if a normal customer was there, it would give them the full browser (via a guest login) but students could access ALL their work from these computers.
I'd personally use a Tablet too, but I am not a student. If I was, what I would want more than anything was something that prevented me from accidentally losing 3 hours of work on a final project because I forgot my Zip Drive in the dorm room.
Except that MS Office is in the cloud as well and costs $6 per month for business users. Not $28. And you can deploy to your own servers which schools systems already maintains.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/offic...-software.aspx
Which are largely running windows XP and woefully outdated. So add Tech support, obsolete hardware replacement, etc to that $6 a month.
There's no need to deploy thin clients when most students bring a real laptop to school with them. $28/month vs $0/month. Or less than $6 if you want to deploy MS Office 360.
Besides that schools can't depend on students having their own computers. And even if they could, they still need to offer computers in public places (labs, library, etc) for the few that don't. These are often outdated beige boxes that are slow as molasses and frequently break down, requiring expensive tech support.
again, a lot of schools are still running on XP era hardware and software. They need to upgrade anyway. And $28 a month with free hardware upgrades is a VERY attractive offer.
Nobody is dismissing it just because it came from Google as much as the only reason it has any credibility is because it comes from Google.
Given how easily is seems HB Gary got compromised on Google I'd sure as hell not use GMail and Google Apps for business. The weakest link, even at a security company, is the executive staff. At least two-factor is available on Google apps but it's a real pain in the ass.
It's not a pain in the ass, well, no more than 2 step authentication is anyway. On top of that, companies like VMware and the like could easily create virtual machines that are compatible with the books, adding a second layer of security. They already do with Android.
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
From your very first response to Dick you have been kind of a jerk. He was being patient with you in not calling you out sooner.
From your very first response to Dick you have been kind of a jerk. He was being patient with you in not calling you out sooner.
From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.
I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.
His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."
OK!
Several posters here are supportive of the Chrome OS and the ChromeBook.
I don't see it... yet!
Do you guys promoting the concept have some actual "hands-on" experience?
If so, where can I get some?
Help me see the light!
It's just launched. Obviously we don't have first hand experience. But some of us can use logic to see how things would work. And there have been more than enough demos out there to form an informed opinion. And really....it's a freaking web browser. It'll run like Chrome on your desktop.
Tell me, did you think the iPad was going to be a hit before you got your hands on one?
If you did, why would you suggest that this can't be successful without trying it out?
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
In several posts I said that I could not make a logical or factual evaluation of the Chrome OS/ChromeBook because i had insufficient knowledge and no experience with either.
Because several of you were singing the virtues on this approach, I made the post (first above) requesting where I could educate myself -- so I could make a logical and factual evaluation.
Your response (second above) admits you have no experience, and, I guess no facts.
So I guess you are debating by logic alone, with no facts or experience -- how logical is that?
No offence but I think you are 100% wrong on this. I work in Education and these things just don't fit the use cases at all.
I see no reason why most Liberal Arts students would need anything more than this. And for the rare occasions that they do, they can use a computer lad that's better equipped.
These things are too expensive, too underpowered and just don't have the necessary apps.
1) $429 is too expensive, but a $500 iPad (like some have argued for) is okay???
2) Underpowered? About the same horsepower as an iPad.
3) Don't have the necessary apps? Judgement call. For most people a browser and Google's web apps would suffice for all their work. But again, nobody says this will be the only machine they use for everything.
[QUOTE=Prof. Peabody;1862494]
Nor is there any reasonable expectation they can get them in the near future.
Education needs are completely different from just editing a document and cruising the web.
And you use different machines for difference functions. I didn't go to the CAD lad to surf the web in university.
Most students need to edit video at a minimum,
No they dont. Four years of aerospace engineering here. I never saw a need to edit a video for a class. Maybe for a personal project. But for a class, no way.
....and there are dozens of specialty apps that simply won't be available.
And for that there will always be PC labs where you can go use those apps.
Also, where is the support? Is Google "in the schools?" No. Do they have reps visiting schools finding out what apps are needed and what they can do to fix things or help out? No.
Apple does.
Geez man. They just announced the concept. Let the details come out. You're writing it off before they even lay out how it will work. And you're forgetting Google Apps. How does Google support large institutions that deploy Google Apps?
In addition ... schools that do need word processing need Word. Anyone with any tech talent knows MS Word is POS but it's the standard format that everyone uses and it can't be gotten around. Apple is in the schools every day, supporting their needs and *still* they can't get them to switch Word for Pages even though Pages is a better product. A school can'st simply just switch to Google Docs overnight (or even over a matter of years). Ain't gonna happen.
You should pay closer attention to the kids. It's become more and more common to use Google Docs because it allows for collaborative work in real time. Word has been a standard because it allowed for compatibility across machines. Google Docs and a browser does the same thing.
And nobody "needs" Word. I have yet to see a Prof specify which word processor I would have to use. They don't care what you use as long as a printed essay lands in the dropbox.
Also, something most people aren't aware of ... most governments and educational institutions outside of the USA can't use Google Docs at all. Period. The reason being that it's illegal to have personal information stored on computers outside of the country. In Canada, it's a violation of the privacy act for example for a school to use Google docs. Some do it anyway but only a small number.
That ruling applies to PERSONAL INFORMATION as in your student number, name, class schedule, etc....basically the school's admin systems. There is nothing preventing the institutions from using Google Apps to provide email services.
[QUOTE=Prof. Peabody;1862522]I've never seen such a setup.
I was talking "class sets" of machines bought for schools (elementary and high school), for educational use. These chromebooks are just no good for that at all.
I work at a University so I'm not sure what a US college is like. Colleges are a whole different thing up here. In Canada, colleges are budget places where you go to prepare for University usually because you can't afford the University or your grades are poor or you are starting late in life etc. Regular students go from high-school direct to University unless their grades aren't good enough.
WHAT UTTER ELITIST GARBAGE. For the Americans on here, colleges in Canada are like Junior colleges in the US. They are actually a cut above. They focus on skilled education (training technologists for example) and some offer applied degree programs. And no, they are not meant for people who just got bad grades in high school....unless you prefer the aircraft mechanic who touched your last airplane to be an academic underachiever.
The Universities generally have multiple, large computer labs fitted out with multi-purpose computers (Mac or PC). They are secured, and the applications are controlled, but they all have Word. I don't think I've even seen a computer without MS Office on it for years.
I have. My CAD stations in university were UNIX workstations without MS suites on there. You went in that lab just to do CAD.
I've never heard of one that "locked a lab down" to be only "browsers only" for any purpose.
Quite common in the computers at any university or public library.
I'm not sure what the point would be for a college or university to buy all that hardware/software and then only allow people to browse? and only within the college admissions system???
So that they don't hog the machine. You register. And get off. Reference terminals at libraries work like this too. You look up the book you're searching for and get off the machine.
Also, by the time you get to University, if you don't have your own computer you would be in a very, very, tiny minority.
And if you have a Chromebook, you'll still have a computer. This would be on par with using an iPad. Just with a more traditional laptop feel.
You have to be rich to go to University or upper-middle class at least. Why would you not have your own laptop even if it wasn't a new one?
Ahhh yes. All the Liberals Arts students who hung out at Starbucks with their Macbooks. God forbid, people actually buy machines that are appropriate to their needs.
The iPad, assuming on the net, has as much storage as a chromebook, no?
The iPad with a good keyboard dock is just as viable for writing essays. Even more so for a tablet like the Eee Pad Transformer. All three have netbook style keyboards as near as I can tell.
I'd rather have an Android or iOS tablet.
I fully agree. That's why I said, an iPad 1 would a good competitor. Because you can do more with a tablet because of its form (and added sensors). That said, for pounding out an essay, nothing beats a decent sized screen, a keyboard and a mouse (or trackpad). And a Chromebook comes fairly close for that function. It'll feel and function like a regular laptop. You'll be able to plug in accessories too, like a regular laptop. Ultimately, it's meant for light purposes. It's not meant for the kind of stuff that most folks on here do (video and music editing, graphics, etc.).
Cheaper though? Not once you toss in that keyboard dock for the iPad. Samsung is selling a Chromebook for $429. Though, I'd still argue that these things have to get cheaper. But I don't think $429 is a bad starting price for what's essentially a light laptop. They are coming with 11 and 12 inch screens, not the shrunken screens and keyboards of most netbooks.
Except that MS Office is in the cloud as well and costs $6 per month for business users.
That's on top of the cost of the laptop and all the support to administer those laptops. But again, you don't have to lease. You can buy the laptops and just run off Google Apps for a lot less than $6 per user.
Not $28. And you can deploy to your own servers which schools systems already maintains.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/offic...-software.aspx
And institutions will ultimately have to work out whether the cost of maintaining those servers and managing those laptops is worthwhile when it can all be outsourced to Google.
There's no need to deploy thin clients when most students bring a real laptop to school with them.
There's a huge chunk of the world, where not every student can bring a laptop to school. There are uses for this. But even where every student can afford a laptop, why should their parents be spending more than is necessary?
$28/month vs $0/month. Or less than $6 if you want to deploy MS Office 360.
It's $20 actually for education users. That includes, the laptop, the software and management by Google. Alternatively, you don't lease. You just buy Chromebooks and manage everything yourself. Just buy Google Apps from El Goog.
Nobody is dismissing it just because it came from Google as much as the only reason it has any credibility is because it comes from Google.
I think there are some on here who are specifically dismissing it because it was from Google. If the same concept was launched as an Apple concept, specifically for the education sector, Jobs would be held up as a visionary doing great things for school kids everywhere.
I'm not saying this is perfect. Nor am I predicting success. What I find incredulous is how quickly people write off what seems like a good idea just because Google put it out.
Given how easily is seems HB Gary got compromised on Google I'd sure as hell not use GMail and Google Apps for business. The weakest link, even at a security company, is the executive staff. At least two-factor is available on Google apps but it's a real pain in the ass.
Fair enough. That's you. Nobody says that what's right for you, is necessarily right across the board, for everybody.
Don't know if there is any link, but the ChromeBook has hit the financial news and:
AAPL down .63%
GOOG down 1.50%
in a down market
some context:
Today May 11
AAPL closed at 347.23, down 2.22 (-0.64%)
GOOG closed at 535.45, down 7.21 (-1.33%)
(from Yahoo finance)
I don't think I understand.
1) Does it run an Atom chip or an ARM chip?
2) If Atom, how is it different from a netbook?
3) If ARM how is it different from a tablet?
4) What do you get that is worth a $20 month subscription?
5) Is a carrier contract or additional monthly charge for cell access?
How does this compete with an iPad at $499 (no subscription, no contract, month-by-month cell)
It might make sense in it were offered a package (hardware, software, subscription, cell data) for, say $20 up front and a 23 month contract at $20/month.
Otherwise... I must really be missing somethin'
I trying not to be obtuse here...
But, I see the ChromeBook as a dumbed-down netbook.
Last century, when I owned the computer stores, we sold a lot of computers and networks into education, from elementary thru colleges.
It takes a concerted effort to sell and support this environment... especially now with WiFi and/or back room servers.
Schools don't have much flexibility on what they can buy -- in CA, the schools often get money to spend on physical plant -- but none for teachers and supplies.
I do not believe that districts will be willing to replace already-paid-for computers with $20-per-month-forever plans... just my opinion.
Is there somewhere I can download the Chrome OS package to run on a Mac or Parallels PC so that I can see what it is and what it isn't?
Maybe then, I can make an informed opinion.
BTW, There is a live-blog of Google i/O at:
I/O Live
OK!
Several posters here are supportive of the Chrome OS and the ChromeBook.
I don't see it... yet!
Do you guys promoting the concept have some actual "hands-on" experience?
If so, where can I get some?
Help me see the light!
But, apparently, it has been in use by business for a while.
I do understand the concept of a laptop. I have one. I have looked at netbooks -- never wanted one.
So, along comes a special, low-cost? laptop that just runs a web browser and some local copies of web apps.
Pardon me, but it is a leap in logic (at least for me) to assume that a browser and some web apps can do what I or any of the other 4 members of the household do on their computers.
Everyone can do surfing, email, WP, SS, etc. -- those are "meets min" for any computing device.
Can you create and edit a simple movie on a ChromeBook? We do this daily.
What about games or other specialty apps?
They say you can run apps while off line. What apps?
To me, the whole issue is going to be about:
1) the apps available for the device
2) whether these apps can satisfy the bulk of a person's computer needs
3) the cost
At $1,008 ($28 per month for 36 months) I can buy a pretty nice iPad, BT KB, and lots of apps.
See my earlier post!
Simply stated, the web provides about 10% of what we (5 people) use computers for -- it'd be a lot less if I didn't follow these forums.
When I'm at my Mac I typically use several apps. Currently I am using:
-- Safari
-- Mail
-- Interactive Brokers Stocktrader (done for the day, but monitor after-hour trades and news)
-- GarageBand
-- Apple FCP Motion 4
-- QuickTime 7
-- iPhoto
-- iTunes
Sure, some of this I can do through a Web OS -- but where, how do I do the things that can't?
I can visualize classes of uses (not users) where limited Web-based apps would be sufficient.
However, I do not believe that Web-based apps are sufficient to satisfy most uses in business, home and personal.
For example: is there a ChromeOS app to teach math; Spanish; how to tell time...
Edit: I know I'm gonna' get zapped for this...
But how is ChromeOS/ChromeBook different than WebTV with a built-in display?
Here's an interesting question:
Will there be a Chrome-based tablet?
Right now, I can't answer all your questions -- I don't have enough knowledge.
I will reserve final opinion until I do some research.
In the mean time, I will play devil's advocate.
I do have some pretty good intuition and 55 years worth of experience with computers and their predecessors.
As I understand the ChromeBook/Chrome OS offering it has to get critical mass to be broadly accepted.
I have yet to see anything to convince me that it will attain that critical mass.
I have seen a series of half-assed, half-hearted Google offerings -- that are announced with great noise -- then left to wither and die.
Who knows -- Chrome may be a whole-assed offering.
But a lot of Chrome's success depends on the enterprise where Microsoft is active and entrenched.
Much as I'd like to see MS get some come-uppance, I don't believe Google has the chops to compete in this arena (neither does Apple).
Ya' know, sonny...
You're beginning to piss me off!
I find your responses elitist and demeaning.
You seem to think you know what "most people" use computers for -- if you were correct the majority of people would be using netbooks.
BTW, the way -- regarding "You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job."
My first real experience with online data entry was to design and program a system for data entry to an IBM/360.
The year was 1967. I worked for IBM.
We used 24 IBM 1050 Selectric® typewriter terminals (Video terminals weren't available).
The data entry ran 24/7 for six months.
The data entry was done by high school and college students.
The application was to convert 2+ million 3x5 index cards to online data for the Clark County, NV Sheriff's Department. Las Vegas
Some notable items:
- there was no format to the information -- it evolved over decades
- none of the information was field-encoded (name, address, etc,)
- some cards were typed, many were handwritten with things stapled to them and written on the back
- many of the cards were ripped, taped, folded -- even rolled and dipped in coffee
- the IBM terminals would disintegrate after a week of continuous use -- not built for that
We gave the data entry people 2 days training.They would encode each item of information as follows:
XX=yyyyyyyyy return
where XX=was 2-3 digit code, and yyyyyyy was the data
codes were things like: fn, ln fp1 (fingerprint 1)...
After each shift we would print the records and computer check codes and content for anomalies. If we ran into an unexpected data field we would generate a new code, and adjust the editing program
Each day, the shift officer in charge would review the results with each DE operator.
Bonuses/raises were awarded for performance.
After about three weeks, we pretty much had encountered all the varying fields of information -- and so we began the database design (hand programmed -- no SQL in those days).
The effort was a resounding success -- I got a bonus and a promotion -- as did several members of the Sheriff's department and the Computer Center staff.
In the intervening years I've done lots of data entry apps including writing web shopping carts in JavaScript, Perl and ColdFusion.
So, sonny -- why don't you buzz off (to put it nicely) and stop telling me what I do and don't know, have seen or understand!
Above are all the posts I made to this thread up to your post, below!
From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.
I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.
His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."
I did get pissed off at being continually put down (look at the responses to my posts).
Aside from that how do you see that:
"From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that."
Please, read through my posts carefully and let me know -- I do try to use reason and persuasion and try and avoid name calling... but after a while...
If I came across as "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" -- I didn't mean to, and will attempt to correct this.
I do enjoy the reasoned discussions at AI.
1) You're assuming these laptops are going to grade schoolers in the lowest grades. They aren't. Pre-teens maybe. But that's as low as it will go.
Is this your own assumption or can you provide a source for this statement?
Its $28 per user, per month
NOT
$28 per machine, per month
So if a school only wants 50 computers to serve 250 students at educational pricing of $20 per user, per month that is 250*20 = $5,000 per month or $60,000 per year or $180,000 for the 3 year contract.
Now, to buy 50 iMacs at $1,149.00 that is $57,450 or about 1/3 the cost.
Is this your own assumption or can you provide a source for this statement?
My assumption. The thing is a laptop with a web browser open. Very young kids would probably be better off with an iPad.
LOL
Its $28 per user, per month
NOT
$28 per machine, per month
So if a school only wants 50 computers to serve 250 students at educational pricing of $20 per user, per month that is 250*20 = $5,000 per month or $60,000 per year or $180,000 for the 3 year contract.
Now, to buy 50 iMacs as $1,149.00 that is $57,450 or about 1/3 the cost.
Education pricing is $20 per month WITH a Chromebook per user. And that's if you contract with Google. You can buy the laptops at $429 a piece and do all the IT management yourself if you like.
At least try and understand the concept before you trash it.
The leasing offer is not tied to the launch of the OS. It's just a specific service that Google is offering. Companies will be able to make and sell laptops using Chrome OS through normal retail and wholesale channels.
some context:
Today May 11
AAPL closed at 347.23, down 2.22 (-0.64%)
GOOG closed at 535.45, down 7.21 (-1.33%)
(from Yahoo finance)
Problem with that is 2 fold: First, Wallstreet's shown it's complete inability to understand the tech market. Look at the past couple of years. They underestimate apple (every quarter) and overestimate some actions by others (Nexus One) even when it's clear to anyone who deals with tech that the Nexus One would NEVER be a big hit for two glaring reasons (before you get to os/hardware)
1) It was available ONLY online
2) It was available ONLY on the smallest major carrier
3) It was largely being sold for full retail
Those three things will kill ANY product trying to sell in the US cellular market. Also, Google posted amazing profits last earning call and the stock still tanked. How "Viable" a product will be is not decided by how the stock fluctuates, at least when it comes to large companies.
The second reason goes back to when Google went public they basically told potential investors that if they wanted to give Google their money, they were welcome to do so, but that Google wouldn't decide policy by what Wallstreet thought they should do. This should be apparent with who their new CEO is.
Profit is obviously important, but Google's making profit.
For the record, I don't think Apple makes policy depending on the moods of wallstreet either. but Google is more up front about that (and advertising is a lot harder to quantify than "we sold x number of Y device")
You can get a C2D with 4GB of RAM for $429? Where???
For starters, that's not what I said. I said that the monthly payment would be the same - and a desktop system would have a LOT longer useful life than one of those Google chapbooks.
But, have it your way. With about 30 seconds of effort, I found:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-s5753w-b/16472514
OK, It's an Athlon dual core rather than a C2D and 3 GB rather than 4, but it will perform very much the same. A little more effort would probably find one for about the same price, anyway.
If your employees have a tough time figuring out how to work a web browser and your IT section needs to be retrained to support an OS that is essentially a web browser with the simplest hardware possible, you have much bigger problems than a simple tech changeover!
As usual, you've missed the entire point. Companies and employees have a workflow pattern. You're proposing completely disrupting that pattern - which costs time and money.
The fact that you have no business experience and therefore don't have any concept of how quickly a few wasted hours of "how do I do this" easily wipes out a few pennies a month in savings is YOUR problem, not mine.
As for the cost, companies will decide on merit, of course. But I strongly suspect that if you use Google Apps already, there will be a strong case to go for Chrome. No more worrying about viruses. No more worrying about managing software baselines, etc. No more managing upgrades. Google does all that for you.
So companies have to throw away everything they're doing to switch to this crapbook - which doesn't even save them any money? What kind of crazy logic is that?
As for deciding on merit, I'm still waiting for an explanation of why a chapbook for $20 a month is any better than a real computer for the same price for the office environment.
Oh, and that doesn't even get into the MASSIVE security issues of letting Google run your business for you. I can see it now - all your confidential information goes to the highest bidder.
Right....
I'm sure many of these companies have no experience dealing with Google from their years using Google Apps. And Samsung or Acer? Unproven hardware suppliers. Both of them.
So you're now confused with the difference between hardware and software? I'm not surprised.
So the fact that Google has experience with software now makes them experts in hardware? Are you REALLY that stupid?
So quick to pass judgement. People said that about the iPad too.
Only the stupid ones. The iPad was a completely different story. The iPad was a new paradigm which had massive advantages for the subset of people who wanted the ultimate in mobility for a media consumption device.
The Google crapbook has no advantages at all for the office environment:
- Portability is not an advantage for the office environment, it's a disadvantage because of theft
- It doesn't save any money compared to leasing real PCs
- It requires users to learn a new way of working and throw away their existing tools
- It gives Google access to all your corporate secrets
There's absolutely no advantage to switching from a $25 / month PC to a $25 / month crapbook for the office environment. So far, no one has given any rational basis for that switch.
One MIGHT be able to make such an argument if you're comparing mobile workers, but netbooks are already in that space - so what's the advantage of the crapbook over a netbook? Heck, if you want such limited functionality with a keyboard, you can buy a lot of netbooks for under $400 - and they are fully functional computers not Google Data Entry Terminals.
Is this your own assumption or can you provide a source for this statement?
Gradeschoolers would most likely use a desktop system as the potential for accidents would be signifigantly less (less spills, drops, being stepped on, etc)
And if they were looking at mobile options, something like a Chromebook would still be a better option than an iPad. Think about it. What school board would think it a good idea to give elementary aged kids a big glass screen and ask them to type on it? A netbook form factor provides more protection.
Yep mstone...good points! But if I had a 12 year old daughter, I'd prefer her working on an iPad2 than a google netbook. In spite of the iPad2's limitations!
Is this an emotional response or are there substantive reasons for your preference?
(just playing devil's advocate here...)