From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.
I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.
His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."
You're confusing the words attitude and opinion. Dick expressed his opinion and it differed from jetz, but they are both allowed their opinion. Jetz attitude in his comments were continually rude. I'll stipulate for the sake of argument that Dicks opinion is wrong as a three dollar bill, that doesn't make him a jerk.
Even if he writes it off after multiple commenters try to change his mind, not a dick move at all. He's should be allowed his opinion just as much as anyone.
I'll give you elitist and demeaning. But he turned the other cheek several times. Jetz had it comin to him.
I did get pissed off at being continually put down (look at the responses to my posts).Please, read through my posts carefully and let me know -- I do try to use reason and persuasion and try and avoid name calling... but after a while...
If I came across as "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" -- I didn't mean to, and will attempt to correct this.
I do enjoy the reasoned discussions at AI.
I think you've handled the subject well, taking a fair amount of abuse along the way. Name-calling and dismissive comments never make a discussion better.
I do think you might have a different view of the Chrome OS once you have an opportunity to try it and then think for a couple of days about how it might work in a learning environment. You did see the download links I posted, correct?
In any case, don't reduce your forum etiquette to meet the lowest common denominator. If someone feels the way to "win" is to toss a few insults your way, so be it. Those posters aren't going to allow anything you say change their pre-conceived ideas anyway so no reason to get down in the gutter with them.
Gradeschoolers would most likely use a desktop system as the potential for accidents would be signifigantly less (less spills, drops, being stepped on, etc)
And if they were looking at mobile options, something like a Chromebook would still be a better option than an iPad. Think about it. What school board would think it a good idea to give elementary aged kids a big glass screen and ask them to type on it? A netbook form factor provides more protection.
Maybe it is time to resurrect the "I'm a Mac" Ads. PC guy could show up dressed in a raincoat and dark glasses saying he's joined Google because of all the cool spy gear they gave him. Mac guy could become "iPad Guy".
I'm sure there would be a ton of creative and funny angles on comparing the two on privacy. Data mining and Ads is Google's Vista. Time to turn up the heat.....
Any funny ideas for "Google Guy" versus "iPad Guy" Ads?
For starters, that's not what I said. I said that the monthly payment would be the same - and a desktop system would have a LOT longer useful life than one of those Google chapbooks.
Which is why the monthly cost includes hardware upgrades. So "Useful life" is meaningless.
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But, have it your way. With about 30 seconds of effort, I found:
OK, It's an Athlon dual core rather than a C2D and 3 GB rather than 4, but it will perform very much the same. A little more effort would probably find one for about the same price, anyway.
If you've used a walmart bargain computer, you'd know that it wouldn't perform "Very much the same." ChromeOS is built from the ground up to operate on leaner hardware. Windows wasn't.
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The fact that you have no business experience and therefore don't have any concept of how quickly a few wasted hours of "how do I do this" easily wipes out a few pennies a month in savings is YOUR problem, not mine.
Most companies are using 11 year old tech. They NEED to upgrade to stay relevant. So it's not a question of IF they have to relearn new tech, it's a question of WHAT tech they'll be learning.
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Oh, and that doesn't even get into the MASSIVE security issues of letting Google run your business for you. I can see it now - all your confidential information goes to the highest bidder.
Assuming you ignore Google's own privacy policy, you would have a point. But if you're going to break out the tin foil hats, it's kinda pointless to have a discussion with you.
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So you're now confused with the difference between hardware and software? I'm not surprised.
So the fact that Google has experience with software now makes them experts in hardware? Are you REALLY that stupid?
Google's not making the hardware, PC companies are. It helps if you read the press briefing before hating it.
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Only the stupid ones. The iPad was a completely different story. The iPad was a new paradigm which had massive advantages for the subset of people who wanted the ultimate in mobility for a media consumption device.
A potential that was not realized until AFTER it was already in the hands of consumers. It wasn't "only the stupid ones" who doubted the ipad when it first launched. Quite a few people did, including people who are now strong advocates of the platform.
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The Google crapbook has no advantages at all for the office environment:
- Portability is not an advantage for the office environment, it's a disadvantage because of theft
- It doesn't save any money compared to leasing real PCs
- It requires users to learn a new way of working and throw away their existing tools
- It gives Google access to all your corporate secrets
-Chromebooks are more secure than traditional laptops because the information is not stored locally. So if a device is stolen, the device cost is lost, not the information. And portability is huge for a lot of businesses and schools. Samsung is also making a desktop client if portability isn't required. (again, reading helps)
-You have hard numbers for this? I doubt it.
-Yes, it's more convenient to rely on 11 year old technology, it's just not practical to do so. Google, Apple, Microsoft, and every other major Software company is moving towards cloud based technology at the very least, if not a totally new way of approaching workflow. The advent of Email also required a serious relearning of workflow, but would we be better off if everyone used snail mail?
-Either put the tinfoil hat away, or stop asking for people to take you seriously.
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There's absolutely no advantage to switching from a $25 / month PC to a $25 / month crapbook for the office environment. So far, no one has given any rational basis for that switch.
Because you don't understand the advantages. That's ok though. People hated cars too.
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One MIGHT be able to make such an argument if you're comparing mobile workers, but netbooks are already in that space - so what's the advantage of the crapbook over a netbook? Heck, if you want such limited functionality with a keyboard, you can buy a lot of netbooks for under $400 - and they are fully functional computers not Google Data Entry Terminals.
If you call a $400 netbook fully functional you've never used one. Period. They suck for just about everything but portability, and even there only provide marginal benefits over a laptop. It's one of the reasons the ipad saw such rapid adoption. It was priced similar to a netbook, but it didn't suck.
Both listed Chromebooks offer full size keyboards, which net books don't. Their OS was also designed with the hardware in mind, Netbook software was not, so the performance on Chrome OS will be a heck of a lot better than a $400 netbook.
So basically, if you want to buy a ton of these for your business or school, you are locked into a 3 year contract. That's a minimum of $720 per machine for education and $1008 for business. For a machine with specs the same or worse than a 16GB iPad - but one that can't install local Applications. Hmm.
I guess the argument must be that support costs drop - but of course they will, if the machine can't run the bespoke software your school or business has created and relies on.
Oh, and Google Apps - thats extra $$ too...
Oh, and 3G, that's another $108 over the contract too...
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
Boy, are you a dumb shit.
Dick uses logic and experience. What do you use... just logic??!! ... and not that logical, actually.
If Dick had made a mistake, which he didn't, he'd get several passes... you on the other hand haven't come anywhere close to cutting your teeth on this forum and deserve to be kicked to the curb the minute you veer off the road of good sense.
In conclusion... just because you believe yourself to be some genius, don't think for a minute that you've got the attention or respect of other forum members. Dick doesn't need to have you buy anything from him.
I wouldn't have called you sonny... I would have called you punk.
... and I don't give a rat's ass if I'm elitist or demeaning.
(oh ya... fire away... I won't be reading your response)
They're already leasing hardware. For the same $28 / mo, they're getting a decent desktop system that runs all their existing software and that doesn't require them to retrain their employees or lose productivity while the employee tries to figure out how to make the thing work. Not to mention no need to take a risk on an unproven platform from an unproven hardware vendor.
What possible advantage is there? The overwhelming majority of enterprise computers are desktops, so the portability is actually a DISadvantage.
And the small number of people who do need portable computers will probably not find these sub-netbook systems to be suitable.
As a consultant (not IT), I work in many big corporations each year and while I agree that they mostly use desktops (though large cadres of people are now being given laptops and docking stations so they can telecomute etc.) most of the desktops are horror shows. Underpowered old things. And what are they increasingly trying to run - MS Virtual Desktop - a nightmare kluge of heavy technologies trying to local cloudify employee experience exactly the same as Google is offering here. Login to any machine and it become yours - except that it is deathly slow, massively buggy and hated by most staff. Google could offer multi-tenant clouds (where data is private from them and other users) like Amazon S3 and so many other hosting providers do. and suddenly we have a fool- and IT Pro-proof infrastructure for most users.
The majority of the negative views coming out here seem to be from people either talking as IT nerds (who have too steep requirements for this) or IT pros who totally fear this cloud future full of $99 swapable hardware. The Samsung ChromeOS desktop is little more than a cross between and ATV1 (netbook spec, local storage) and ATV2 (tablet spec, all cloud). If student or employee content is held in a private cloud, leased by google to the firm and all corporate/campus web apps work on the little Chrome machine then what is wrong with this a a general purpose future for the majority of non-power users? It is the return of the terminal in smarter form.
All the students I know (neighbors kids. relatives, godchildren etc.) are all general or humanities students and most of them already use Google Docs exclusively for their work. It is free (parents love it), the dog can't eat it the homework, works offline in a pinch and it is powerful enough to produce school work - all on whatever hand-me-down machine they have. The college freshman with the shiny Mac is a nice picture but many cannot afford this and not the additional software afterwards. MS Word may be a standard but as long as you can spit out word compatible files and know how to do basic word-processing, formatting etc. you don't need it.
As others have said - this is not coming after tablets - this is coming for Windows. I say let it.
PS If Apple were to compete (which makes little business sense), they would buff up an ATV2 to ipad2 specs with a smidge more local storage to run a cloudified iOS (v6?)
So basically, if you want to buy a ton of these for your business or school, you are locked into a 3 year contract. That's a minimum of $720 per machine for education and $1008 for business. For a machine with specs the same or worse than a 16GB iPad - but one that can't install local Applications. Hmm.
I guess the argument must be that support costs drop - but of course they will, if the machine can't run the bespoke software your school or business has created and relies on.
Oh, and Google Apps - thats extra $$ too...
Oh, and 3G, that's another $108 over the contract too...
$720 gets you the Book, tech support, software support and an upgraded book should yours no longer support the software. It also gives IT administrators a device with Sandboxing built in at the OS level. It also gives you warranty, so add in Applecare to your costs.
-locally stored apps are a non-starter as web apps can work offline, and the ability to log into your account from ANY chromebook is a pretty big boon over a traditional computer.
-why is everyone comparing this to an ipad? This is not meant to compete with an ipad, or a high end laptop. It's there to replace budget laptops/netbooks with a device that offers a superior experience for web content, which is the only reason to get a low end computer. people don't buy a NETBOOK for heavy video editing.
Google Apps is free for smaller organizations, and it's dirt cheap (compared to other solutions) for larger companies. As others have stated, a lot of companies use Google Apps no matter what their machines are, so the cost isn't really a factor.
I think you've handled the subject well, taking a fair amount of abuse along the way. Name-calling and dismissive comments never make a discussion better.
I do think you might have a different view of the Chrome OS once you have an opportunity to try it and then think for a couple of days about how it might work in a learning environment. You did see the download links I posted, correct?
In any case, don't reduce your forum etiquette to meet the lowest common denominator. If someone feels the way to "win" is to toss a few insults your way, so be it. Those posters aren't going to allow anything you say change their pre-conceived ideas anyway so no reason to get down in the gutter with them.
I didn't see the download links for Chrome. I'll go back and find them.
I do use a browser a lot, but don't use a lot of cloud apps -- Apple doesn't have a good offering, and I try to make as little information as possible available to outsiders (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, etc.).
I have a long and positive experience with Apple (33 years).
I have a very negative Personal experience with Microsoft.
I have a continual frustration with Google -- opening analytics windows in my browser, etc. Also I do not like their attitude as publicly stated -- paraphrased: "If you don't want us to know about it, you shouldn't be doing it". I have a very real problem with that.
That said, Apple certainly could make a ChromeBook-like device, running an iOS/Lion hybrid with cloud and/or local apps (iWork). They could easily change iWork apps to be MS (or whatever) compatible format, and get their cloud act together.
That would alleviate most of my issues...
Except, I am still not convinced that an AppBook makes sense -- even though the AppBook would have all the apps and capabilities of the iPad from day 1.
I am retired -- so I can't tell what I would do if still active in business-- but from what I know, I suspect I would use:
-- a desktop for heavy lifting (at least the heavy lifting that I do)
-- an iPad for most personal and most business mobility
-- a laptop for mobility - only where necessary - where the iPad is inadequate
Where does a ChromeBook or an Apple equivalent fit in that use pattern.
Dick uses logic and experience. What do you use... just logic??!! ... and not that logical, actually.
If Dick had made a mistake, which he didn't, he'd get several passes... you on the other hand haven't come anywhere close to cutting your teeth on this forum and deserve to be kicked to the curb the minute you veer off the road of good sense.
In conclusion... just because you believe yourself to be some genius, don't think for a minute that you've got the attention or respect of other forum members. Dick doesn't need to have you buy anything from him.
I wouldn't have called you sonny... I would have called you punk.
... and I don't give a rat's ass if I'm elitist or demeaning.
(oh ya... fire away... I won't be reading your response)
I realize that people who live alone on islands have no social skills but that means you should check your spewings as though you were a normal human being and not a little bile factory as you seem to be.
Anyway, Dick and others have put forward their points based on experience but I would suggest that asking the stable and feed guys in 1890's New York what the requirements for transportation in 20 years time would be is about as useful. I work with IT guys all the time who are the least forward thinking, most jobsworth folks around (not all but many) who naturally think about the past and their jobs more than the users and the future. If we've learned anything from Apple (and now Google) it is about skating to where the puck is going, not where is was or even is.
In getting new corporate systems developed and deployed (even simple ones like social business collaboration platforms), the most resistant people to the new solution are typically IT. Case in point - we put in Jive SBS to drive community, communication and collaboration in our company. That was over the massive objections of IT who wanted either the IBM or MS horror shows since they were nerdy, needed lots of customization and would still keep users dependent on IT for most things. Business won, we got Jive, and 18 months later shut down swathes of redundant IT in legacy systems and a load of data-center capacity that we now let the vendor host at much lower cost. IT guys were mostly redeployed to other things and business is vastly happier with their solution.
Thin client, cloud computing is where the puck is going no matter how much people shout about the past. MS knows it, Apple knows it, Google knows it. They all just have differing starting points to get there.
I have a continual frustration with Google -- opening analytics windows in my browser, etc. Also I do not like their attitude as publicly stated -- paraphrased: "If you don't want us to know about it, you shouldn't be doing it". I have a very real problem with that.
Just a quick note on this. if this is the quote I'm thinking it is, it was taken wildly out of context. They were talking about privacy online and Google said (correctly) that you cannot assume that anything posted online is "private." Furthermore, they were referring more to people complaining because embarrassing content was showing up in Google searches because the user uploaded it to some website (like facebook) and then got pissed when an employer found it because they googled their name.
(It was around the same time that Eric jokingly suggested that minors get a "new online ID" when they turned 18, right?)
Privacy is really important. But I think it's too easy for people to blow the issue out of proportion. Look at all the FUD about iphone tracking for example. People took what was essentially a bug report, and it's blown up into a political/financial scandal. I agree with Steve Jobs on this one, Companies have done a poor job informing customers about how privacy works online, and I'm hoping Apple and Google can put something out about it really soon. (and that it WONT just be potshots.. fanboy parades are not what we need, knowledge is)
Yes, Google collects a lot of data about me. But on the same token, they provide me with easy ways to opt out of that collection, and to delete the information they already have on me. For me, they've proven to be decent stewards of that data, and I'm ok with how they use it because of the services it provides me. I also don't have an issue with Apple knowing my musical preferences because they're not selling ME. Both companies are selling aggregate information.
Contrast that to Facebook, which steals your contacts phone numbers and links them to their Facebook profiles without informing your friends that they are doing so. or that Facebook has sold user uploaded pictures to advertisers. I've cut down my facebook page to the bare minimum it can be, but they STILL gather data on my based on the preferences of what my friends like. The only reason I have it is because I have a few friends who I can only get ahold of via facebook chat. If you want a company that uses your data in a way that is unambiguously evil, I personally say look at Facebook.
So are rental textbooks. When I pay for text/graphix/music/video etc. It now belongs to me to save, share (in legal means), or archive. Subscriptions do not allow for this and are just cash cows for greedy corporations.
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Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Google announced on Wednesday that it will offer subscription "Chromebooks" running its Chrome OS Web-based operating system at a cost of $28 per month for business users, and $20 per month for students.
Google made the announcement to developers at its I/O 2011 conference, where it showed off two Chromebook hardware options launching this June. Samsung will sell a ChromeOS-powered computer with a 12.1-inch screen and instant-on capabilities for $429, or $499 with 3G connectivity, while Acer has a 11.6-inch model starting at $349.
But business and education customers will be able to bypass standard purchasing options and instead subscribe to Chrome OS. The search giant announced that government and small business customers will be able to subscribe for $28 per month, while students will pay $20 per month.
Paying a monthly fee will allow Google to offer a complete hardware and service package that includes the hardware, technical support, warranty, and replacements. And when the hardware lifecycle is over, Google will automatically upgrade users to new hardware at no extra cost.
Google Chromebooks from Samsung. Google I/O photos via Gizmodo.
The new Chromebooks will be available starting June 15 in the U.S., France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, U.K. and Italy. Subscription plans will also be available for schools, businesses and governments in June.
Google Chrome OS Web applications. Google I/O photos via Gizmodo.
Google showed off Chrome OS to attendees on Wednesday, pitching the new operating system as a browser-based solution that offers "Nothing but the Web." But content such as word processors and games like Angry Birds will be accessed within the browser, and can even be accessed when the device is not connected to the Internet.
Google also showed off the Chrome Web store, and revealed that it would take a flat fee of 5 percent from all transactions, leaving developers with 95 percent. That's higher than the 30 percent cut that Apple takes from App Store transactions for the iPhone and iPad.
There's more to it, than the cursory thought that AI gave.
Just as I said. It's a crapbook that's more expensive than a netbook that does a LOT more.
And more expensive than a MUCH more powerful desktop that would be more appropriate for the majority of educational or enterprise applications.
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Originally Posted by Capnbob
As a consultant (not IT), I work in many big corporations each year and while I agree that they mostly use desktops (though large cadres of people are now being given laptops and docking stations so they can telecomute etc.) most of the desktops are horror shows. Underpowered old things.
So you're advocating replacing them with an even MORE underpowered thing? And one that costs more?
So are rental textbooks. When I pay for text/graphix/music/video etc. It now belongs to me to save, share (in legal means), or archive. Subscriptions do not allow for this and are just cash cows for greedy corporations.
This isn't an e-subscription. This is a HARDWARE subscription. Something that a lot of companies already do because it outsources support.
Thin client, cloud computing is where the puck is going no matter how much people shout about the past. MS knows it, Apple knows it, Google knows it. They all just have differing starting points to get there.
Mmm... I suspect that what you say is true -- to some extent.
There is some future for thin clients and cloud computing.
However, I don't believe it is compelling and as imminent as you think.
There are many big issues to be resolved -- if only security and access to the data.
While you belittle the past, we can often gain some perspective from it.
Except for price and technology advances -- the thin client/cloud operation is very similar to the [semi-]dumb terminal/mainframe (client-server) operation of the past (ca 1967-1980).
This was largely replaced by the [semi-]dumb terminal/mini operation (ca 1972-1979).
This was then replaced by the standalone microcomputer (ca 1978-1980).
Later, these were networked together on LANs and WANs (ca 1980-).
From the time the microcomputer (personal computer) came on the scene there has been processing and data storage capability on the client side.
I don't know if we will get away from that soon.
Take for example, a Saturday soccer game that generates about 60 GB of video. This has to be ingested and edited for a 2 day turn-around.
1) how do you get that 60 GB raw video to the cloud?
2) how long does it take?
3) how much does it cost to upload?
4) how much does it cost to store on the cloud?
5) are there any apps that can edit that video using a thin client and the cloud?
6) if so how much do they cost -- they are quite processing intensive.
7) can you use dual large-screen monitors on the thin client (like on a Fat client iMac)
8) how much extra time does it take to process over the Internet
Oh, did I mention that there are 2 cameras and 3 soccer games.
Certainly this is a special case.
And the issue is not totally the thin client or the cloud -- rather, much of it is the diameter of the pipe that connects them
But it illustrates that the thin-client/cloud solution is not the be all end all solution for everything.
It may be some day... but not today!
It is interesting that al least 1 major news network uses iMovie-class apps to prep most videos of 20 minutes or less.
Oddly, I can take that soccer game on an 8 GB AVCHD card (expands to 60 GB), plug it in to iMovie, scrub-locate, select and edit a few clips into a highlight video in less than 30 minutes... on a Fat iMac.
The resulting video is usually 50-100 MB and can easily be uploaded to the cloud.
Mmm... I suspect that what you say is true -- to some extent.
There is some future for thin clients and cloud computing.
However, I don't believe it is compelling and as imminent as you think.
There are many big issues to be resolved -- if only security and access to the data.
.
-All tabs (and thus apps) in chrome are sandboxed, if one tab crashes, other's will still be fine.
-On boot, the OS will check itself for errors and corruptions. if they are detected, the OS will install from a known safe backup. If no backup is available it will download it.
-All information on chrome is encrypted as a default.
-Administrators get complete access to information on their networks
-As for personal use, I assume it's similar to Google Dashboard/Gmail/Gdocs
-support for Citrix and VMware out of the box. so, for example, you could access photoshop/any other app from your admin's network if you needed to
I don't think we're there yet for total thin-clients. Video editing is still something that is bandwidth limited. but remember that it's something that is a very special use case. We're not average consumers here. average consumers (like my parents) pretty much ONLY use the computer to get online. Thin clients would be perfect for them.
1) how do you get that 60 GB raw video to the cloud?
Oh, did I mention that there are 2 cameras and 3 soccer games.
Certainly this is a special case.
And the issue is not totally the thin client or the cloud -- rather, much of it is the diameter of the pipe that connects them
But it illustrates that the thin-client/cloud solution is not the be all end all solution for everything.
It may be some day... but not today!
I wasnt going to add anymore to this thread but you keep making these special cases that obviously aren’t suitable for Chrome OS or iOS or Android or anything other than a traditional PC setup. 60 GB of raw video?! Come on!
You also seem to think there is some all-or-nothing concept here and there simply isn’t. There have been very clear areas as to how Chrome OS would be better suited in both utilize and price than other options.
There is no “be all end all solutions for everything” never has been and never will be. You show me such a product and I’ll show you a business opportunity.
You missed this:
We saw a brief demo of the software used on a CR-48, and while the setup was obviously optimized, it worked shockingly well. A backend Windows server had a copy of Photoshop CS5 onboard, and the CR-48 was able to load it within a matter of seconds through Receiver. Not a light model -- we're talking about the full, bona fide version of Photoshop.
There are still a lot of reasons this isn’t practical but your arguments aren’t dealing with the practical aspects, your going from one extreme of mobile computing with the iPad to another extreme of heavy CPU usage. Why can’t there be a middle ground for a usage that doesn’t have anything to do with your needs?
The bottom line pretty much everyone on this forum will have absolutely no need Chrome OS as a personal machine, much in the same way I find little utility with the iPad as it sits between my iPhone and 13” MBP, but that doesn’t mean I discount the iPad as a viable computing option.
PS: Calling this a thin client is inaccurate. It can run offline. It read and write to a USB stick or HDD. It’s not a dead duck that can’t do a single task once you have no internet access.
-All tabs (and thus apps) in chrome are sandboxed, if one tab crashes, other's will still be fine.
-On boot, the OS will check itself for errors and corruptions. if they are detected, the OS will install from a known safe backup. If no backup is available it will download it.
-All information on chrome is encrypted as a default.
-Administrators get complete access to information on their networks
-As for personal use, I assume it's similar to Google Dashboard/Gmail/Gdocs
I don't think we're there yet for total thin-clients. Video editing is still something that is bandwidth limited. but remember that it's something that is a very special use case. We're not average consumers here. average consumers (like my parents) pretty much ONLY use the computer to get online. Thin clients would be perfect for them.
You seem to know a lot about Chrome. Later, I will try and find a link to download the OS -- so I can see for myself.
I keep hearing the "average consumers" argument -- not sure that means a sizeable majority or a small niche.
In our household we have 2 adults and 3 children (11, 12, 15). Maybe we're spoiled, but we could not get buy with just a browser and the web apps that people say will satisfy the "average consumer".
I don't get around much so I have no idea of the usage requirements of typical users.
I support almost anything that will enable users to improve their lives -- the ChromeBook could well be one of them
Comments
From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.
I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.
His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."
You're confusing the words attitude and opinion. Dick expressed his opinion and it differed from jetz, but they are both allowed their opinion. Jetz attitude in his comments were continually rude. I'll stipulate for the sake of argument that Dicks opinion is wrong as a three dollar bill, that doesn't make him a jerk.
Even if he writes it off after multiple commenters try to change his mind, not a dick move at all. He's should be allowed his opinion just as much as anyone.
I'll give you elitist and demeaning. But he turned the other cheek several times. Jetz had it comin to him.
I did get pissed off at being continually put down (look at the responses to my posts).Please, read through my posts carefully and let me know -- I do try to use reason and persuasion and try and avoid name calling... but after a while...
If I came across as "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" -- I didn't mean to, and will attempt to correct this.
I do enjoy the reasoned discussions at AI.
I think you've handled the subject well, taking a fair amount of abuse along the way. Name-calling and dismissive comments never make a discussion better.
I do think you might have a different view of the Chrome OS once you have an opportunity to try it and then think for a couple of days about how it might work in a learning environment. You did see the download links I posted, correct?
In any case, don't reduce your forum etiquette to meet the lowest common denominator. If someone feels the way to "win" is to toss a few insults your way, so be it. Those posters aren't going to allow anything you say change their pre-conceived ideas anyway so no reason to get down in the gutter with them.
Here's what it does:
http://www.google.com/chromebook/#
Here's how much it costs:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...me-os-laptops/
And here's the subscription model that people are discussing:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/e...ns-might-have/
There's more to it, than the cursory thought that AI gave.
Gradeschoolers would most likely use a desktop system as the potential for accidents would be signifigantly less (less spills, drops, being stepped on, etc)
And if they were looking at mobile options, something like a Chromebook would still be a better option than an iPad. Think about it. What school board would think it a good idea to give elementary aged kids a big glass screen and ask them to type on it? A netbook form factor provides more protection.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/g...ion-of-chrome/
Desktops are likely coming too.
I'm sure there would be a ton of creative and funny angles on comparing the two on privacy. Data mining and Ads is Google's Vista. Time to turn up the heat.....
Any funny ideas for "Google Guy" versus "iPad Guy" Ads?
For starters, that's not what I said. I said that the monthly payment would be the same - and a desktop system would have a LOT longer useful life than one of those Google chapbooks.
Which is why the monthly cost includes hardware upgrades. So "Useful life" is meaningless.
But, have it your way. With about 30 seconds of effort, I found:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-s5753w-b/16472514
OK, It's an Athlon dual core rather than a C2D and 3 GB rather than 4, but it will perform very much the same. A little more effort would probably find one for about the same price, anyway.
If you've used a walmart bargain computer, you'd know that it wouldn't perform "Very much the same." ChromeOS is built from the ground up to operate on leaner hardware. Windows wasn't.
The fact that you have no business experience and therefore don't have any concept of how quickly a few wasted hours of "how do I do this" easily wipes out a few pennies a month in savings is YOUR problem, not mine.
Most companies are using 11 year old tech. They NEED to upgrade to stay relevant. So it's not a question of IF they have to relearn new tech, it's a question of WHAT tech they'll be learning.
Oh, and that doesn't even get into the MASSIVE security issues of letting Google run your business for you. I can see it now - all your confidential information goes to the highest bidder.
Assuming you ignore Google's own privacy policy, you would have a point. But if you're going to break out the tin foil hats, it's kinda pointless to have a discussion with you.
So you're now confused with the difference between hardware and software? I'm not surprised.
So the fact that Google has experience with software now makes them experts in hardware? Are you REALLY that stupid?
Google's not making the hardware, PC companies are. It helps if you read the press briefing before hating it.
Only the stupid ones. The iPad was a completely different story. The iPad was a new paradigm which had massive advantages for the subset of people who wanted the ultimate in mobility for a media consumption device.
A potential that was not realized until AFTER it was already in the hands of consumers. It wasn't "only the stupid ones" who doubted the ipad when it first launched. Quite a few people did, including people who are now strong advocates of the platform.
The Google crapbook has no advantages at all for the office environment:
- Portability is not an advantage for the office environment, it's a disadvantage because of theft
- It doesn't save any money compared to leasing real PCs
- It requires users to learn a new way of working and throw away their existing tools
- It gives Google access to all your corporate secrets
-Chromebooks are more secure than traditional laptops because the information is not stored locally. So if a device is stolen, the device cost is lost, not the information. And portability is huge for a lot of businesses and schools. Samsung is also making a desktop client if portability isn't required. (again, reading helps)
-You have hard numbers for this? I doubt it.
-Yes, it's more convenient to rely on 11 year old technology, it's just not practical to do so. Google, Apple, Microsoft, and every other major Software company is moving towards cloud based technology at the very least, if not a totally new way of approaching workflow. The advent of Email also required a serious relearning of workflow, but would we be better off if everyone used snail mail?
-Either put the tinfoil hat away, or stop asking for people to take you seriously.
There's absolutely no advantage to switching from a $25 / month PC to a $25 / month crapbook for the office environment. So far, no one has given any rational basis for that switch.
Because you don't understand the advantages. That's ok though. People hated cars too.
One MIGHT be able to make such an argument if you're comparing mobile workers, but netbooks are already in that space - so what's the advantage of the crapbook over a netbook? Heck, if you want such limited functionality with a keyboard, you can buy a lot of netbooks for under $400 - and they are fully functional computers not Google Data Entry Terminals.
If you call a $400 netbook fully functional you've never used one. Period. They suck for just about everything but portability, and even there only provide marginal benefits over a laptop. It's one of the reasons the ipad saw such rapid adoption. It was priced similar to a netbook, but it didn't suck.
Both listed Chromebooks offer full size keyboards, which net books don't. Their OS was also designed with the hardware in mind, Netbook software was not, so the performance on Chrome OS will be a heck of a lot better than a $400 netbook.
I guess the argument must be that support costs drop - but of course they will, if the machine can't run the bespoke software your school or business has created and relies on.
Oh, and Google Apps - thats extra $$ too...
Oh, and 3G, that's another $108 over the contract too...
You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?
Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.
And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
Boy, are you a dumb shit.
Dick uses logic and experience. What do you use... just logic??!! ... and not that logical, actually.
If Dick had made a mistake, which he didn't, he'd get several passes... you on the other hand haven't come anywhere close to cutting your teeth on this forum and deserve to be kicked to the curb the minute you veer off the road of good sense.
In conclusion... just because you believe yourself to be some genius, don't think for a minute that you've got the attention or respect of other forum members. Dick doesn't need to have you buy anything from him.
I wouldn't have called you sonny... I would have called you punk.
... and I don't give a rat's ass if I'm elitist or demeaning.
(oh ya... fire away... I won't be reading your response)
Obviously including you.
They're already leasing hardware. For the same $28 / mo, they're getting a decent desktop system that runs all their existing software and that doesn't require them to retrain their employees or lose productivity while the employee tries to figure out how to make the thing work. Not to mention no need to take a risk on an unproven platform from an unproven hardware vendor.
What possible advantage is there? The overwhelming majority of enterprise computers are desktops, so the portability is actually a DISadvantage.
And the small number of people who do need portable computers will probably not find these sub-netbook systems to be suitable.
As a consultant (not IT), I work in many big corporations each year and while I agree that they mostly use desktops (though large cadres of people are now being given laptops and docking stations so they can telecomute etc.) most of the desktops are horror shows. Underpowered old things. And what are they increasingly trying to run - MS Virtual Desktop - a nightmare kluge of heavy technologies trying to local cloudify employee experience exactly the same as Google is offering here. Login to any machine and it become yours - except that it is deathly slow, massively buggy and hated by most staff. Google could offer multi-tenant clouds (where data is private from them and other users) like Amazon S3 and so many other hosting providers do. and suddenly we have a fool- and IT Pro-proof infrastructure for most users.
The majority of the negative views coming out here seem to be from people either talking as IT nerds (who have too steep requirements for this) or IT pros who totally fear this cloud future full of $99 swapable hardware. The Samsung ChromeOS desktop is little more than a cross between and ATV1 (netbook spec, local storage) and ATV2 (tablet spec, all cloud). If student or employee content is held in a private cloud, leased by google to the firm and all corporate/campus web apps work on the little Chrome machine then what is wrong with this a a general purpose future for the majority of non-power users? It is the return of the terminal in smarter form.
All the students I know (neighbors kids. relatives, godchildren etc.) are all general or humanities students and most of them already use Google Docs exclusively for their work. It is free (parents love it), the dog can't eat it the homework, works offline in a pinch and it is powerful enough to produce school work - all on whatever hand-me-down machine they have. The college freshman with the shiny Mac is a nice picture but many cannot afford this and not the additional software afterwards. MS Word may be a standard but as long as you can spit out word compatible files and know how to do basic word-processing, formatting etc. you don't need it.
As others have said - this is not coming after tablets - this is coming for Windows. I say let it.
PS If Apple were to compete (which makes little business sense), they would buff up an ATV2 to ipad2 specs with a smidge more local storage to run a cloudified iOS (v6?)
So basically, if you want to buy a ton of these for your business or school, you are locked into a 3 year contract. That's a minimum of $720 per machine for education and $1008 for business. For a machine with specs the same or worse than a 16GB iPad - but one that can't install local Applications. Hmm.
I guess the argument must be that support costs drop - but of course they will, if the machine can't run the bespoke software your school or business has created and relies on.
Oh, and Google Apps - thats extra $$ too...
Oh, and 3G, that's another $108 over the contract too...
$720 gets you the Book, tech support, software support and an upgraded book should yours no longer support the software. It also gives IT administrators a device with Sandboxing built in at the OS level. It also gives you warranty, so add in Applecare to your costs.
-locally stored apps are a non-starter as web apps can work offline, and the ability to log into your account from ANY chromebook is a pretty big boon over a traditional computer.
-why is everyone comparing this to an ipad? This is not meant to compete with an ipad, or a high end laptop. It's there to replace budget laptops/netbooks with a device that offers a superior experience for web content, which is the only reason to get a low end computer. people don't buy a NETBOOK for heavy video editing.
Google Apps is free for smaller organizations, and it's dirt cheap (compared to other solutions) for larger companies. As others have stated, a lot of companies use Google Apps no matter what their machines are, so the cost isn't really a factor.
I think you've handled the subject well, taking a fair amount of abuse along the way. Name-calling and dismissive comments never make a discussion better.
I do think you might have a different view of the Chrome OS once you have an opportunity to try it and then think for a couple of days about how it might work in a learning environment. You did see the download links I posted, correct?
In any case, don't reduce your forum etiquette to meet the lowest common denominator. If someone feels the way to "win" is to toss a few insults your way, so be it. Those posters aren't going to allow anything you say change their pre-conceived ideas anyway so no reason to get down in the gutter with them.
I didn't see the download links for Chrome. I'll go back and find them.
I do use a browser a lot, but don't use a lot of cloud apps -- Apple doesn't have a good offering, and I try to make as little information as possible available to outsiders (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, etc.).
I have a long and positive experience with Apple (33 years).
I have a very negative Personal experience with Microsoft.
I have a continual frustration with Google -- opening analytics windows in my browser, etc. Also I do not like their attitude as publicly stated -- paraphrased: "If you don't want us to know about it, you shouldn't be doing it". I have a very real problem with that.
That said, Apple certainly could make a ChromeBook-like device, running an iOS/Lion hybrid with cloud and/or local apps (iWork). They could easily change iWork apps to be MS (or whatever) compatible format, and get their cloud act together.
That would alleviate most of my issues...
Except, I am still not convinced that an AppBook makes sense -- even though the AppBook would have all the apps and capabilities of the iPad from day 1.
I am retired -- so I can't tell what I would do if still active in business-- but from what I know, I suspect I would use:
-- a desktop for heavy lifting (at least the heavy lifting that I do)
-- an iPad for most personal and most business mobility
-- a laptop for mobility - only where necessary - where the iPad is inadequate
Where does a ChromeBook or an Apple equivalent fit in that use pattern.
I don't know!
Boy, are you a dumb shit.
Dick uses logic and experience. What do you use... just logic??!! ... and not that logical, actually.
If Dick had made a mistake, which he didn't, he'd get several passes... you on the other hand haven't come anywhere close to cutting your teeth on this forum and deserve to be kicked to the curb the minute you veer off the road of good sense.
In conclusion... just because you believe yourself to be some genius, don't think for a minute that you've got the attention or respect of other forum members. Dick doesn't need to have you buy anything from him.
I wouldn't have called you sonny... I would have called you punk.
... and I don't give a rat's ass if I'm elitist or demeaning.
(oh ya... fire away... I won't be reading your response)
I realize that people who live alone on islands have no social skills but that means you should check your spewings as though you were a normal human being and not a little bile factory as you seem to be.
Anyway, Dick and others have put forward their points based on experience but I would suggest that asking the stable and feed guys in 1890's New York what the requirements for transportation in 20 years time would be is about as useful. I work with IT guys all the time who are the least forward thinking, most jobsworth folks around (not all but many) who naturally think about the past and their jobs more than the users and the future. If we've learned anything from Apple (and now Google) it is about skating to where the puck is going, not where is was or even is.
In getting new corporate systems developed and deployed (even simple ones like social business collaboration platforms), the most resistant people to the new solution are typically IT. Case in point - we put in Jive SBS to drive community, communication and collaboration in our company. That was over the massive objections of IT who wanted either the IBM or MS horror shows since they were nerdy, needed lots of customization and would still keep users dependent on IT for most things. Business won, we got Jive, and 18 months later shut down swathes of redundant IT in legacy systems and a load of data-center capacity that we now let the vendor host at much lower cost. IT guys were mostly redeployed to other things and business is vastly happier with their solution.
Thin client, cloud computing is where the puck is going no matter how much people shout about the past. MS knows it, Apple knows it, Google knows it. They all just have differing starting points to get there.
I have a continual frustration with Google -- opening analytics windows in my browser, etc. Also I do not like their attitude as publicly stated -- paraphrased: "If you don't want us to know about it, you shouldn't be doing it". I have a very real problem with that.
Just a quick note on this. if this is the quote I'm thinking it is, it was taken wildly out of context. They were talking about privacy online and Google said (correctly) that you cannot assume that anything posted online is "private." Furthermore, they were referring more to people complaining because embarrassing content was showing up in Google searches because the user uploaded it to some website (like facebook) and then got pissed when an employer found it because they googled their name.
(It was around the same time that Eric jokingly suggested that minors get a "new online ID" when they turned 18, right?)
Privacy is really important. But I think it's too easy for people to blow the issue out of proportion. Look at all the FUD about iphone tracking for example. People took what was essentially a bug report, and it's blown up into a political/financial scandal. I agree with Steve Jobs on this one, Companies have done a poor job informing customers about how privacy works online, and I'm hoping Apple and Google can put something out about it really soon. (and that it WONT just be potshots.. fanboy parades are not what we need, knowledge is)
Yes, Google collects a lot of data about me. But on the same token, they provide me with easy ways to opt out of that collection, and to delete the information they already have on me. For me, they've proven to be decent stewards of that data, and I'm ok with how they use it because of the services it provides me. I also don't have an issue with Apple knowing my musical preferences because they're not selling ME. Both companies are selling aggregate information.
Contrast that to Facebook, which steals your contacts phone numbers and links them to their Facebook profiles without informing your friends that they are doing so. or that Facebook has sold user uploaded pictures to advertisers. I've cut down my facebook page to the bare minimum it can be, but they STILL gather data on my based on the preferences of what my friends like. The only reason I have it is because I have a few friends who I can only get ahold of via facebook chat. If you want a company that uses your data in a way that is unambiguously evil, I personally say look at Facebook.
Google announced on Wednesday that it will offer subscription "Chromebooks" running its Chrome OS Web-based operating system at a cost of $28 per month for business users, and $20 per month for students.
Google made the announcement to developers at its I/O 2011 conference, where it showed off two Chromebook hardware options launching this June. Samsung will sell a ChromeOS-powered computer with a 12.1-inch screen and instant-on capabilities for $429, or $499 with 3G connectivity, while Acer has a 11.6-inch model starting at $349.
But business and education customers will be able to bypass standard purchasing options and instead subscribe to Chrome OS. The search giant announced that government and small business customers will be able to subscribe for $28 per month, while students will pay $20 per month.
Paying a monthly fee will allow Google to offer a complete hardware and service package that includes the hardware, technical support, warranty, and replacements. And when the hardware lifecycle is over, Google will automatically upgrade users to new hardware at no extra cost.
Google Chromebooks from Samsung. Google I/O photos via Gizmodo.
The new Chromebooks will be available starting June 15 in the U.S., France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, U.K. and Italy. Subscription plans will also be available for schools, businesses and governments in June.
Google Chrome OS Web applications. Google I/O photos via Gizmodo.
Google showed off Chrome OS to attendees on Wednesday, pitching the new operating system as a browser-based solution that offers "Nothing but the Web." But content such as word processors and games like Angry Birds will be accessed within the browser, and can even be accessed when the device is not connected to the Internet.
Google also showed off the Chrome Web store, and revealed that it would take a flat fee of 5 percent from all transactions, leaving developers with 95 percent. That's higher than the 30 percent cut that Apple takes from App Store transactions for the iPhone and iPad.
Here. How about we base on discussion on real sources.
Here's what it does:
http://www.google.com/chromebook/#
Here's how much it costs:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...me-os-laptops/
And here's the subscription model that people are discussing:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/e...ns-might-have/
There's more to it, than the cursory thought that AI gave.
Just as I said. It's a crapbook that's more expensive than a netbook that does a LOT more.
And more expensive than a MUCH more powerful desktop that would be more appropriate for the majority of educational or enterprise applications.
As a consultant (not IT), I work in many big corporations each year and while I agree that they mostly use desktops (though large cadres of people are now being given laptops and docking stations so they can telecomute etc.) most of the desktops are horror shows. Underpowered old things.
So you're advocating replacing them with an even MORE underpowered thing? And one that costs more?
So are rental textbooks. When I pay for text/graphix/music/video etc. It now belongs to me to save, share (in legal means), or archive. Subscriptions do not allow for this and are just cash cows for greedy corporations.
This isn't an e-subscription. This is a HARDWARE subscription. Something that a lot of companies already do because it outsources support.
I think you missed the point of the article.
Thin client, cloud computing is where the puck is going no matter how much people shout about the past. MS knows it, Apple knows it, Google knows it. They all just have differing starting points to get there.
Mmm... I suspect that what you say is true -- to some extent.
There is some future for thin clients and cloud computing.
However, I don't believe it is compelling and as imminent as you think.
There are many big issues to be resolved -- if only security and access to the data.
While you belittle the past, we can often gain some perspective from it.
Except for price and technology advances -- the thin client/cloud operation is very similar to the [semi-]dumb terminal/mainframe (client-server) operation of the past (ca 1967-1980).
This was largely replaced by the [semi-]dumb terminal/mini operation (ca 1972-1979).
This was then replaced by the standalone microcomputer (ca 1978-1980).
Later, these were networked together on LANs and WANs (ca 1980-).
From the time the microcomputer (personal computer) came on the scene there has been processing and data storage capability on the client side.
I don't know if we will get away from that soon.
Take for example, a Saturday soccer game that generates about 60 GB of video. This has to be ingested and edited for a 2 day turn-around.
1) how do you get that 60 GB raw video to the cloud?
2) how long does it take?
3) how much does it cost to upload?
4) how much does it cost to store on the cloud?
5) are there any apps that can edit that video using a thin client and the cloud?
6) if so how much do they cost -- they are quite processing intensive.
7) can you use dual large-screen monitors on the thin client (like on a Fat client iMac)
8) how much extra time does it take to process over the Internet
Oh, did I mention that there are 2 cameras and 3 soccer games.
Certainly this is a special case.
And the issue is not totally the thin client or the cloud -- rather, much of it is the diameter of the pipe that connects them
But it illustrates that the thin-client/cloud solution is not the be all end all solution for everything.
It may be some day... but not today!
It is interesting that al least 1 major news network uses iMovie-class apps to prep most videos of 20 minutes or less.
Oddly, I can take that soccer game on an 8 GB AVCHD card (expands to 60 GB), plug it in to iMovie, scrub-locate, select and edit a few clips into a highlight video in less than 30 minutes... on a Fat iMac.
The resulting video is usually 50-100 MB and can easily be uploaded to the cloud.
Mmm... I suspect that what you say is true -- to some extent.
There is some future for thin clients and cloud computing.
However, I don't believe it is compelling and as imminent as you think.
There are many big issues to be resolved -- if only security and access to the data.
.
-All tabs (and thus apps) in chrome are sandboxed, if one tab crashes, other's will still be fine.
-On boot, the OS will check itself for errors and corruptions. if they are detected, the OS will install from a known safe backup. If no backup is available it will download it.
-All information on chrome is encrypted as a default.
-Administrators get complete access to information on their networks
-As for personal use, I assume it's similar to Google Dashboard/Gmail/Gdocs
-support for Citrix and VMware out of the box. so, for example, you could access photoshop/any other app from your admin's network if you needed to
I don't think we're there yet for total thin-clients. Video editing is still something that is bandwidth limited. but remember that it's something that is a very special use case. We're not average consumers here. average consumers (like my parents) pretty much ONLY use the computer to get online. Thin clients would be perfect for them.
1) how do you get that 60 GB raw video to the cloud?
Oh, did I mention that there are 2 cameras and 3 soccer games.
Certainly this is a special case.
And the issue is not totally the thin client or the cloud -- rather, much of it is the diameter of the pipe that connects them
But it illustrates that the thin-client/cloud solution is not the be all end all solution for everything.
It may be some day... but not today!
I wasnt going to add anymore to this thread but you keep making these special cases that obviously aren’t suitable for Chrome OS or iOS or Android or anything other than a traditional PC setup. 60 GB of raw video?! Come on!
You also seem to think there is some all-or-nothing concept here and there simply isn’t. There have been very clear areas as to how Chrome OS would be better suited in both utilize and price than other options.
There is no “be all end all solutions for everything” never has been and never will be. You show me such a product and I’ll show you a business opportunity.
You missed this:There are still a lot of reasons this isn’t practical but your arguments aren’t dealing with the practical aspects, your going from one extreme of mobile computing with the iPad to another extreme of heavy CPU usage. Why can’t there be a middle ground for a usage that doesn’t have anything to do with your needs?
The bottom line pretty much everyone on this forum will have absolutely no need Chrome OS as a personal machine, much in the same way I find little utility with the iPad as it sits between my iPhone and 13” MBP, but that doesn’t mean I discount the iPad as a viable computing option.
PS: Calling this a thin client is inaccurate. It can run offline. It read and write to a USB stick or HDD. It’s not a dead duck that can’t do a single task once you have no internet access.
-All tabs (and thus apps) in chrome are sandboxed, if one tab crashes, other's will still be fine.
-On boot, the OS will check itself for errors and corruptions. if they are detected, the OS will install from a known safe backup. If no backup is available it will download it.
-All information on chrome is encrypted as a default.
-Administrators get complete access to information on their networks
-As for personal use, I assume it's similar to Google Dashboard/Gmail/Gdocs
I don't think we're there yet for total thin-clients. Video editing is still something that is bandwidth limited. but remember that it's something that is a very special use case. We're not average consumers here. average consumers (like my parents) pretty much ONLY use the computer to get online. Thin clients would be perfect for them.
You seem to know a lot about Chrome. Later, I will try and find a link to download the OS -- so I can see for myself.
I keep hearing the "average consumers" argument -- not sure that means a sizeable majority or a small niche.
In our household we have 2 adults and 3 children (11, 12, 15). Maybe we're spoiled, but we could not get buy with just a browser and the web apps that people say will satisfy the "average consumer".
I don't get around much so I have no idea of the usage requirements of typical users.
I support almost anything that will enable users to improve their lives -- the ChromeBook could well be one of them