A device which isn't designed to run arbitrary native code of the user's choosing isn't a personal computer. That outright disqualifies graphic calculators, iOS devices and other appliances. PS3 comes very close but I think it doesn't qualify due to the hypervisor. I'd also expect the device has an interface suitable for general computing, which means a network router running Linux is out.
A device which isn't designed to run arbitrary native code of the user's choosing isn't a personal computer. That outright disqualifies graphic calculators, iOS devices and other appliances....
Which iOS devices do you feel are not personal computers?
This pretty much shows that any hardware can be handled via the 30 pin dock connector. It's just a matter of desire to make a compatible device for your DVD, Blu-Ray, etc. examples.
Quote:
- Update a GPS with the latest maps
Don't own one do you? My iPads maps get updated just fine OTA.
Please. Of all the things you can do on a PC evidently you haven't learned how to google.
Quote:
Before anyone starts throwing out useless arguments about how many people don't need to do some or all of these things, that doesn't matter. The point is that any computer sold today traditionally categorized in the "PC" market can do all of these things and a lot more. All specialty devices including the iPhone, iPad, iPod, Kindle, Android, etc.. can't do most of these.
I think you'll be surprised what Android tablets can do natively. 90% of what you've listed is software and for that Android has a lot of software that Apple doesn't approve of (like native torrent or VM software). The 10% hardware restrictions simply require the right dock to provide access to PC like peripherals.
The bottom line is that a ARM based tablet is a fully functional computer running a general purpose operating system and can do everything a PC can do (in the generic sense) because it is one.
The iPad is the most restricted in this category but not so much it doesn't belong to the same family of devices. Arguing that an iPad isn't a tablet would be weird. But I guess that probably wouldn't keep some people from trying.
Exactly. Like I said the term "PC" is ambiguous. We may as well be arguing if a warblee is really a snishnash.
Humans share 98% of the same DNA as monkeys.....BUT THEY ARE NOT MONKEYS.
The starter of this thread wants to make Apple look like a top PC manufactrer...but they are not. I could have sworn there was this massive Apple campaign that said "I'm a MAC. I'm a PC".
Humans share 98% of the same DNA as monkeys.....BUT THEY ARE NOT MONKEYS.
That's a fair point but humans and monkeys are both mammals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkgx1
The starter of this thread wants to make Apple look like a top PC manufactrer...but they are not. I could have sworn there was this massive Apple campaign that said "I'm a MAC. I'm a PC".
Thing is that pc users then use market penetration stats as a club to minimize the importance and influence of Macs.
IMO, the iPad is a pc. I use a broader definition of the term than most: it has a cpu, an os and is able to run a broad variety of apps that the user can install that views, manipulates and modifies data.
Whether you accept that definition or not I think its safe to say that the iPad, tablets in general and the current crop of smart phones have blurred the distinction between pcs and other post pc devices. In fact its becoming a distinction without a difference.
That's a fair point but humans and monkeys are both mammals.
I agree. But that's a different class entirely. And every bug, rodent, and germ is a living being. Really a matter of perspective, I guess.
Thing is that pc users then use market penetration stats as a club to minimize the importance and influence of Macs.
IMO, the iPad is a pc. I use a broader definition of the term than most: it has a cpu, an os and is able to run a broad variety of apps that the user can install that views, manipulates and modifies data.
But then again my TV has apps and a CPU and an OS (though minimized). The Xbox 360 has one too. But I still wouldn't call it a PC.
Whether you accept that definition or not I think its safe to say that the iPad, tablets in general and the current crop of smart phones have blurred the distinction between pcs and other post pc devices. In fact its becoming a distinction without a difference.
That distinction acknowledges some limited functions.That's what makes the difference. The Motorola Atrix and it's laptop dock does that too. But I would still have a hard ime calling it a laptop with it's limited hardware. I actually enjoy watching Youtube videos on my phone more than my PC because of the mobile experience.
I know what you are saying. iOS works very well, but it's still limited to for me. It's the fact that you have to add apps to expand it. That's why I kind of hate that OSX Lion has an app store (and soon Windows 8) because it becomes a more store controlled enviorment.
For example, when I went to Best Buy to buy my mom a laptop, she thought an iPad would suffice. I thought $350 was a great price, but I did warn her of some of the limitations that she may face. She normally just surfs, but if she decides to download something, it would be from the app store. I really wanted her to get it, but it's much too limiting.
However, she has been on her iPhone 4S a LOT now. She does most of her web browisng on it for some reason. Especially youtube/lecture watching. She just like's the portablity and smoothness of it. Now I think woudl be a good time.
But I guess you can think of it like this: many didn't consider the iPhone a smartphone (especially corporations) since it didn't support many things businesses needed. But now, it's beyond what Blackberry can do and Apple has made improvement.
I hope I made sense...I'm currently drinkin too much coffee.
Quote:
Thing is that pc users then use market penetration stats as a club to minimize the importance and influence of Macs.
Exactly. I would agree. Android users tend to do that with iPhone. Windows 7 GUI was heavily inspired by Apple OSX. I love Macs. But I always viewed Macs as something like a Mercedes or some other brand. A lot of times higher end cars are what influences midrange cars. Midrange cars usually take the credit because it cheapens some featuers for the masses.
I think the problem is that a lot of people don't have the money for macs and tend to ignore any contributtions made because of it's limited availblity. Happens all the time.
That's a fair point but humans and monkeys are both mammals.
For that matter, both primates and both simians. That takes us pretty much down to the order (primate), suborder (haplorhines), infraorder (Simiiformes) all the way down to the same SUB-family of Homininae which include gorillas, humans and chimps (which are the ones widely cited to be 95% the same as humans).
For a computer taxonomy that pretty much brings us from computers to personal computers with personal computers classifiable as desktops, laptops and tablets families of devices.
So an iPad might be of the personal computer order, tablet family, iOS genus, iPad species.
With all analogies it breaks down when you start worrying the details (like the relationship between iPhones and iPads)...but I think the point is obvious. If the iPad has 98% of the same "DNA" as a Apple MBA or Acer netbook or Motion Computing x86 tablet they probably belong in the same general larger category (PC).
Just like humans and chips are both animalia, chodata, mammalia, primates, haplorrrhini, simiformes, catarrhini, hominoidea and homindae.
Folks that don't believe that smartphones are in the same broad PC category are going to be in for a rough future as the tablet and smartphone families start seriously displacing the desktop and laptop families of devices.
If you want to stick desktop PCs into the same genus as the tablet you might call them the Homo Neanderthalensis of PCs.
For a computer taxonomy that pretty much brings us from computers to personal computers with personal computers classifiable as desktops, laptops and tablets families of devices.
So an iPad might be of the personal computer order, tablet family, iOS genus, iPad species.
With all analogies it breaks down when you start worrying the details (like the relationship between iPhones and iPads)...but I think the point is obvious. If the iPad has 98% of the same "DNA" as a Apple MBA or Acer netbook or Motion Computing x86 tablet they probably belong in the same general larger category (PC).
Whether you interact with it through a touch surface, keyboard, voice control or telepathy, a PC runs the code you want it to run. Appliances like iOS devices run code Apple allows them to run. Some tablets are PCs, some like the iPad are not.
Windows 8 apps will only be available from a locked down Microsoft store. By your silly definition of locked down not equalling PC, a windows 8 device woulda longer be a PC, even though it is still a general purpose home computer!
You haven't paid attention apparently. Only Metro apps will be restricted to Microsoft's store, and that only on "home" versions of Windows.
If your device had a "home" version of Windows 8, and it did not allow apps other than Metro (probably on account of being installed on an ARM-based tablet) and the hardware was designed to prevent the installation of any other OS, the resulting device would indeed not be a PC. It would be a Microsoft-controlled appliance for reading your email, watching kitten videos and whatever else Microsoft specifically chooses to allow you to do.
Whether you interact with it through a touch surface, keyboard, voice control or telepathy, a PC runs the code you want it to run. Appliances like iOS devices run code Apple allows them to run. Some tablets are PCs, some like the iPad are not.
So by your definition a galaxy tab is a pc but an iPad isn't. Despite the fact that there are far more useful apps and peripherals available for the iPad than the tab.
Whether you interact with it through a touch surface, keyboard, voice control or telepathy, a PC runs the code you want it to run. Appliances like iOS devices run code Apple allows them to run. Some tablets are PCs, some like the iPad are not.
As I mentioned earlier, the term "PC" is ambiguous.
It once meant IBM clone desktops running Windows. Then it grew to encompass laptops along with desktops running Windows.
When netbooks came out with Linux installed they were called a "PC" as well, which confused a lot of people.
The term then expanded to include Mac's as well.
Personally I don't like it. The iPad is most certainly a different class of computer than desktops/laptops running Windows, Linux or OSX and it would seem helpful to describe it as such.
However it seems pointless to fight the inevitable... the term "PC" no longer has a clear definition and any use of the term will lead to arguments not from people that disagree with you, but that have a different idea of what a "PC" is.
It's only going to get worse when Window 8 is released when whatever hint of a definition of "PC" that still exists gets totally blown away.
So by your definition a galaxy tab is a pc but an iPad isn't. Despite the fact that there are far more useful apps and peripherals available for the iPad than the tab.
Brilliant.
Does a Galaxy Tab allow you to freely replace the OS? That's the second part of my definition, being able to freely run native code. Most Android devices do run arbitrary application code which is great, but not enough to satisfy my definition of a PC.
You seem to have this weird obsession that PCs = good, therefore iPads must be PCs. What's wrong with good appliances? I have seen iPad and iPhone owners posting about how they are happy their device is locked down and they don't have to worry about the additional modes of failure that come with the power of PCs. I myself don't want my coffee maker to be a PC; it's better for it to be dumb.
Does a Galaxy Tab allow you to freely replace the OS? That's the second part of my definition, being able to freely run native code. Most Android devices do run arbitrary application code which is great, but not enough to satisfy my definition of a PC.
While the definition of what is a pc is somewhat nebulous and your definition is just as valid as mine, I think your requirement that a pc be able to run arbitrary code is more a philosophical desire rather than a characteristic or feature that defines what constitutes a pc and what doesn't.
Curated computing is the future of 2 of the 3 'pc' platforms. While Apple are likely to eventually limit all code that runs on Macs to App store applications, MS will not be far behind. They will probably allow side-loading of applications but they will really push to have consumers and general users only run apps that are obtained through the MS app store. IMO, linux will be the only platform that will allow unencumbered 'arbitrary code' to be run. Does that mean pcs will become extinct? I would argue that they are being re-defined.
Does a Galaxy Tab allow you to freely replace the OS?
You can run Ubuntu within a VM. Perhaps even natively depending on the kernel build requirements. It is linux underneath. You know, that PC operating system.
Quote:
That's the second part of my definition, being able to freely run native code. Most Android devices do run arbitrary application code which is great, but not enough to satisfy my definition of a PC.
Funny about that isn't it? Regardless of what capability is shown it'll never be enough to satisfy you.
Especially given that to "run arbitrary code" is generally as simply as clicking a link, downloading the apk and installing it.
Quote:
You seem to have this weird obsession that PCs = good, therefore iPads must be PCs.
You seem to have this weird obsession to classify iPads as dumb appliances. I'm guessing to troll folks.
I just dislike dumb definitions and constantly moving goalposts put out by trolls. What's it to you if some analyst wants to classify tablets as PCs? They're used like traditional PCs by regular people to do general purpose computing on them. Everything from website development, to writing, to track medical records, to coding, to doing presentations, to making music, etc.
But as a troll, you prefer to characterize this as "watching kitten videos" and harping about it being "limited to software Apple chooses" and "locked down" as if any of that matters. It doesn't to anyone but trolls.
Frankly, whether or not someone is open minded enough to agree that other folks can consider an iPad as a valid personal computing device is a good litmus test between trolls and normal people. Normal people think if it works for you, great, it's a personal computer for you. Even if they might prefer a laptop or desktop PC themselves. Trolls have to call them dumb appliances that do little more than watch kitten videos.
Comments
The problem is that people keep scaling and expand the definition to fit their needs.
Exactly. Like I said the term "PC" is ambiguous. We may as well be arguing if a warblee is really a snishnash.
A device which isn't designed to run arbitrary native code of the user's choosing isn't a personal computer. That outright disqualifies graphic calculators, iOS devices and other appliances....
Which iOS devices do you feel are not personal computers?
Which iOS devices do you feel are not personal computers?
All of them, of course.
A device which isn't designed to run arbitrary native code of the user's choosing isn't a personal computer.
All of them, of course.
So an ipad isn't a computer? Why?
So an ipad isn't a computer? Why?
What part of the explanation did you not understand?
What part of the explanation did you not understand?
Explain what you mean by arbitrary native code. I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Let's see, here's a few:
- Access an external hard drive
- Access a pen drive
http://www.hypershop.com/HyperDrive-...rive-s/183.htm
This pretty much shows that any hardware can be handled via the 30 pin dock connector. It's just a matter of desire to make a compatible device for your DVD, Blu-Ray, etc. examples.
- Update a GPS with the latest maps
Don't own one do you? My iPads maps get updated just fine OTA.
- Download Bittorrent movies
Web:
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/93840/d...-jailbreaking/
Native control:
http://www.redmondpie.com/bittorrent...oved-by-apple/
Jailbroken:
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/93648/i...r-iphone-ipad/
- Create a website
- Maintain or update a website
- Any type of software development
http://webdesignledger.com/tools/10-...-web-designers
http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/201...r-the-ipad.php
- Download any type of file from a website
- Upload any type of file to a website
Please. Of all the things you can do on a PC evidently you haven't learned how to google.
Before anyone starts throwing out useless arguments about how many people don't need to do some or all of these things, that doesn't matter. The point is that any computer sold today traditionally categorized in the "PC" market can do all of these things and a lot more. All specialty devices including the iPhone, iPad, iPod, Kindle, Android, etc.. can't do most of these.
I think you'll be surprised what Android tablets can do natively. 90% of what you've listed is software and for that Android has a lot of software that Apple doesn't approve of (like native torrent or VM software). The 10% hardware restrictions simply require the right dock to provide access to PC like peripherals.
The bottom line is that a ARM based tablet is a fully functional computer running a general purpose operating system and can do everything a PC can do (in the generic sense) because it is one.
The iPad is the most restricted in this category but not so much it doesn't belong to the same family of devices. Arguing that an iPad isn't a tablet would be weird. But I guess that probably wouldn't keep some people from trying.
Exactly. Like I said the term "PC" is ambiguous. We may as well be arguing if a warblee is really a snishnash.
Humans share 98% of the same DNA as monkeys.....BUT THEY ARE NOT MONKEYS.
The starter of this thread wants to make Apple look like a top PC manufactrer...but they are not. I could have sworn there was this massive Apple campaign that said "I'm a MAC. I'm a PC".
Humans share 98% of the same DNA as monkeys.....BUT THEY ARE NOT MONKEYS.
That's a fair point but humans and monkeys are both mammals.
The starter of this thread wants to make Apple look like a top PC manufactrer...but they are not. I could have sworn there was this massive Apple campaign that said "I'm a MAC. I'm a PC".
Thing is that pc users then use market penetration stats as a club to minimize the importance and influence of Macs.
IMO, the iPad is a pc. I use a broader definition of the term than most: it has a cpu, an os and is able to run a broad variety of apps that the user can install that views, manipulates and modifies data.
Whether you accept that definition or not I think its safe to say that the iPad, tablets in general and the current crop of smart phones have blurred the distinction between pcs and other post pc devices. In fact its becoming a distinction without a difference.
That's a fair point but humans and monkeys are both mammals.
I agree. But that's a different class entirely. And every bug, rodent, and germ is a living being. Really a matter of perspective, I guess.
Thing is that pc users then use market penetration stats as a club to minimize the importance and influence of Macs.
IMO, the iPad is a pc. I use a broader definition of the term than most: it has a cpu, an os and is able to run a broad variety of apps that the user can install that views, manipulates and modifies data.
But then again my TV has apps and a CPU and an OS (though minimized). The Xbox 360 has one too. But I still wouldn't call it a PC.
Whether you accept that definition or not I think its safe to say that the iPad, tablets in general and the current crop of smart phones have blurred the distinction between pcs and other post pc devices. In fact its becoming a distinction without a difference.
That distinction acknowledges some limited functions.That's what makes the difference. The Motorola Atrix and it's laptop dock does that too. But I would still have a hard ime calling it a laptop with it's limited hardware. I actually enjoy watching Youtube videos on my phone more than my PC because of the mobile experience.
I know what you are saying. iOS works very well, but it's still limited to for me. It's the fact that you have to add apps to expand it. That's why I kind of hate that OSX Lion has an app store (and soon Windows 8) because it becomes a more store controlled enviorment.
For example, when I went to Best Buy to buy my mom a laptop, she thought an iPad would suffice. I thought $350 was a great price, but I did warn her of some of the limitations that she may face. She normally just surfs, but if she decides to download something, it would be from the app store. I really wanted her to get it, but it's much too limiting.
However, she has been on her iPhone 4S a LOT now. She does most of her web browisng on it for some reason. Especially youtube/lecture watching. She just like's the portablity and smoothness of it. Now I think woudl be a good time.
But I guess you can think of it like this: many didn't consider the iPhone a smartphone (especially corporations) since it didn't support many things businesses needed. But now, it's beyond what Blackberry can do and Apple has made improvement.
I hope I made sense...I'm currently drinkin too much coffee.
Thing is that pc users then use market penetration stats as a club to minimize the importance and influence of Macs.
Exactly. I would agree. Android users tend to do that with iPhone. Windows 7 GUI was heavily inspired by Apple OSX. I love Macs. But I always viewed Macs as something like a Mercedes or some other brand. A lot of times higher end cars are what influences midrange cars. Midrange cars usually take the credit because it cheapens some featuers for the masses.
I think the problem is that a lot of people don't have the money for macs and tend to ignore any contributtions made because of it's limited availblity. Happens all the time.
That's a fair point but humans and monkeys are both mammals.
For that matter, both primates and both simians. That takes us pretty much down to the order (primate), suborder (haplorhines), infraorder (Simiiformes) all the way down to the same SUB-family of Homininae which include gorillas, humans and chimps (which are the ones widely cited to be 95% the same as humans).
For a computer taxonomy that pretty much brings us from computers to personal computers with personal computers classifiable as desktops, laptops and tablets families of devices.
So an iPad might be of the personal computer order, tablet family, iOS genus, iPad species.
With all analogies it breaks down when you start worrying the details (like the relationship between iPhones and iPads)...but I think the point is obvious. If the iPad has 98% of the same "DNA" as a Apple MBA or Acer netbook or Motion Computing x86 tablet they probably belong in the same general larger category (PC).
Just like humans and chips are both animalia, chodata, mammalia, primates, haplorrrhini, simiformes, catarrhini, hominoidea and homindae.
Folks that don't believe that smartphones are in the same broad PC category are going to be in for a rough future as the tablet and smartphone families start seriously displacing the desktop and laptop families of devices.
If you want to stick desktop PCs into the same genus as the tablet you might call them the Homo Neanderthalensis of PCs.
For a computer taxonomy that pretty much brings us from computers to personal computers with personal computers classifiable as desktops, laptops and tablets families of devices.
So an iPad might be of the personal computer order, tablet family, iOS genus, iPad species.
With all analogies it breaks down when you start worrying the details (like the relationship between iPhones and iPads)...but I think the point is obvious. If the iPad has 98% of the same "DNA" as a Apple MBA or Acer netbook or Motion Computing x86 tablet they probably belong in the same general larger category (PC).
Whether you interact with it through a touch surface, keyboard, voice control or telepathy, a PC runs the code you want it to run. Appliances like iOS devices run code Apple allows them to run. Some tablets are PCs, some like the iPad are not.
Windows 8 apps will only be available from a locked down Microsoft store. By your silly definition of locked down not equalling PC, a windows 8 device woulda longer be a PC, even though it is still a general purpose home computer!
You haven't paid attention apparently. Only Metro apps will be restricted to Microsoft's store, and that only on "home" versions of Windows.
If your device had a "home" version of Windows 8, and it did not allow apps other than Metro (probably on account of being installed on an ARM-based tablet) and the hardware was designed to prevent the installation of any other OS, the resulting device would indeed not be a PC. It would be a Microsoft-controlled appliance for reading your email, watching kitten videos and whatever else Microsoft specifically chooses to allow you to do.
Whether you interact with it through a touch surface, keyboard, voice control or telepathy, a PC runs the code you want it to run. Appliances like iOS devices run code Apple allows them to run. Some tablets are PCs, some like the iPad are not.
So by your definition a galaxy tab is a pc but an iPad isn't. Despite the fact that there are far more useful apps and peripherals available for the iPad than the tab.
Brilliant.
Whether you interact with it through a touch surface, keyboard, voice control or telepathy, a PC runs the code you want it to run. Appliances like iOS devices run code Apple allows them to run. Some tablets are PCs, some like the iPad are not.
As I mentioned earlier, the term "PC" is ambiguous.
It once meant IBM clone desktops running Windows. Then it grew to encompass laptops along with desktops running Windows.
When netbooks came out with Linux installed they were called a "PC" as well, which confused a lot of people.
The term then expanded to include Mac's as well.
Personally I don't like it. The iPad is most certainly a different class of computer than desktops/laptops running Windows, Linux or OSX and it would seem helpful to describe it as such.
However it seems pointless to fight the inevitable... the term "PC" no longer has a clear definition and any use of the term will lead to arguments not from people that disagree with you, but that have a different idea of what a "PC" is.
It's only going to get worse when Window 8 is released when whatever hint of a definition of "PC" that still exists gets totally blown away.
So by your definition a galaxy tab is a pc but an iPad isn't. Despite the fact that there are far more useful apps and peripherals available for the iPad than the tab.
Brilliant.
Does a Galaxy Tab allow you to freely replace the OS? That's the second part of my definition, being able to freely run native code. Most Android devices do run arbitrary application code which is great, but not enough to satisfy my definition of a PC.
You seem to have this weird obsession that PCs = good, therefore iPads must be PCs. What's wrong with good appliances? I have seen iPad and iPhone owners posting about how they are happy their device is locked down and they don't have to worry about the additional modes of failure that come with the power of PCs. I myself don't want my coffee maker to be a PC; it's better for it to be dumb.
Does a Galaxy Tab allow you to freely replace the OS? That's the second part of my definition, being able to freely run native code. Most Android devices do run arbitrary application code which is great, but not enough to satisfy my definition of a PC.
While the definition of what is a pc is somewhat nebulous and your definition is just as valid as mine, I think your requirement that a pc be able to run arbitrary code is more a philosophical desire rather than a characteristic or feature that defines what constitutes a pc and what doesn't.
Curated computing is the future of 2 of the 3 'pc' platforms. While Apple are likely to eventually limit all code that runs on Macs to App store applications, MS will not be far behind. They will probably allow side-loading of applications but they will really push to have consumers and general users only run apps that are obtained through the MS app store. IMO, linux will be the only platform that will allow unencumbered 'arbitrary code' to be run. Does that mean pcs will become extinct? I would argue that they are being re-defined.
Does a Galaxy Tab allow you to freely replace the OS?
You can run Ubuntu within a VM. Perhaps even natively depending on the kernel build requirements. It is linux underneath. You know, that PC operating system.
That's the second part of my definition, being able to freely run native code. Most Android devices do run arbitrary application code which is great, but not enough to satisfy my definition of a PC.
Funny about that isn't it? Regardless of what capability is shown it'll never be enough to satisfy you.
Especially given that to "run arbitrary code" is generally as simply as clicking a link, downloading the apk and installing it.
You seem to have this weird obsession that PCs = good, therefore iPads must be PCs.
You seem to have this weird obsession to classify iPads as dumb appliances. I'm guessing to troll folks.
I just dislike dumb definitions and constantly moving goalposts put out by trolls. What's it to you if some analyst wants to classify tablets as PCs? They're used like traditional PCs by regular people to do general purpose computing on them. Everything from website development, to writing, to track medical records, to coding, to doing presentations, to making music, etc.
But as a troll, you prefer to characterize this as "watching kitten videos" and harping about it being "limited to software Apple chooses" and "locked down" as if any of that matters. It doesn't to anyone but trolls.
Frankly, whether or not someone is open minded enough to agree that other folks can consider an iPad as a valid personal computing device is a good litmus test between trolls and normal people. Normal people think if it works for you, great, it's a personal computer for you. Even if they might prefer a laptop or desktop PC themselves. Trolls have to call them dumb appliances that do little more than watch kitten videos.
So Troll B'Gon.
So Troll B'Gon.
I don't agree with Gon on this but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a troll.