IDC predicts PC users won't upgrade to Windows 8, tablet sales will be "disappointing"

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  • Reply 41 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snowdog65 View Post


    Most people simply buy a machine and use the OS it came with until they buy a new machine.



    I believe that with Mobile, upgrading your OS is equivalent [almost] with downloading/installing a new app ... Vivre le difference!
  • Reply 42 of 137
    Quote:

    The way I see it if you want a full desktop on a tablet it's because you want to be able to run full desktop applications - either on the tablet itself or when docked to a keyboard (i.e. something like Office, Photoshop, Visual Studio, VMWare, Eclipse, Adobe CS5 etc)



    I know Photoshop is no problem to run on existing x86 tablets, like Asus EP121. Microsoft themselves actually wanted developers to do some app development on the Samsung tablet they give out a Build conference (which would include using Visual Studio and other development tools). I have heard of some 3D artists successfully using x86 tablets with 3D sculpting applications. By this time next year I expect Intel to have more competitve offerings. Personally I'm not to sure about the power of Intel's GPU solutions.
  • Reply 43 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post


    However the initial plan, and I suspect still the official plan is to still give access to the Windows desktop, with a library of drivers and support for desktop style applications that have been compiled for ARM.



    That's the million dollar question!



    It's my opinion that at least by default, ARM tablets won't have the desktop included.



    The confusion of having something that looks like the old Windows desktop but can't actually run any old applications would be too much for normal consumers.



    That said, I would be surprised if Microsoft didn't offer an Windows 8 ARM SKU that included the desktop for business users and embedded system OEM's.



    Less likely (but still possible) would be the ability to add the desktop to an Windows 8 ARM tablet as an after market feature (e.g. the ability to download the "Windows desktop" app from the store).
  • Reply 44 of 137
    bigbig Posts: 36member
    I read the previous posts and realized, with dismay, that they're right: MS will continue to dominate PCs and therefore market share simply because their latest OS - irrespective of whether it's great or it's absolute crap - will come pre-inistalled. Here's what I'm hoping for: I hope for a day very soon that tablets will be highly capable stand alone machines with no need to even own a PC. Then, who cares if PCs come pre-installed with Windows? It'll be rendered irrelevant and the playing field will be leveled.



    I read with interest and respect the very long rebuttal from Braden99. Lots of good, valid points! But my opinion - and that's all it is - is that Braden99 is very keen on tinkering (going as far as overclocking and investing in a very nice steel case!). I can honestly get behind that: I haven't done anything nearly as bold but I took the time and effort to hackintosh my Dell Mini 9 to OS X Snow Leopard and I use it as my primary machine because it's so convenient and stable (I'm typing this reply on it right now). But I realize something else: we're in the minority. The masses - the 99% if you will - are not going to want to tinker or mod or know anything even mildly "techie" about their machines. They just want them to work. They want appliances.



    May the best OS win.
  • Reply 45 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by big View Post


    I read the previous posts and realized, with dismay, that they're right: MS will continue to dominate PCs and therefore market share simply because their latest OS - irrespective of whether it's great or it's absolute crap - will come pre-inistalled. Here's what I'm hoping for: I hope for a day very soon that tablets will be highly capable stand alone machines with no need to even own a PC. Then, who cares if PCs come pre-installed with Windows? It'll be rendered irrelevant and the playing field will be leveled.



    I read with interest and respect the very long rebuttal from Braden99. Lots of good, valid points! But my opinion - and that's all it is - is that Braden99 is very keen on tinkering (going as far as overclocking and investing in a very nice steel case!). I can honestly get behind that: I haven't done anything nearly as bold but I took the time and effort to hackintosh my Dell Mini 9 to OS X Snow Leopard and I use it as my primary machine because it's so convenient and stable (I'm typing this reply on it right now). But I realize something else: we're in the minority. The masses - the 99% if you will - are not going to want to tinker or mod or know anything even mildly "techie" about their machines. They just want them to work. They want appliances.



    May the best OS win.



    Bingo!
  • Reply 46 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post


    I know Photoshop is no problem to run on existing x86 tablets, like Asus EP121. Microsoft themselves actually wanted developers to do some app development on the Samsung tablet they give out a Build conference (which would include using Visual Studio and other development tools). I have heard of some 3D artists successfully using x86 tablets with 3D sculpting applications. By this time next year I expect Intel to have more competitive offerings. Personally I'm not to sure about the power of Intel's GPU solutions.



    Well that's the point I'm trying to make.



    Yes you can have an x86 based tablet. To look something like an iPad said tablet needs to be running an Atom processor, however to make it useful as an x86 based tablet you need something like a Core i3/i5/i7.



    The Samsung tablet that was given out at BUILD was a Core i5 and had a fan. The Asus EP121 also has a Core i5 but it is also twice as thick as an iPad, twice as heavy and has half the battery life.



    What I'm trying to say is that at the moment there is a trade off. If you want something in the same form factor as an iPad it's either ARM based (so you lose your "full PC") or Atom based (in which case it's not fast enough to be useful as a "full PC" anyway).



    It's not until 2013 (maybe 18 months) that we will get something that looks like an iPad does today, but has the same grunt as a Core i5 driving it.
  • Reply 47 of 137
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Big deal - and no surprise.



    All desktop OSs have gotten mature enough that there's no longer any great reason to upgrade. Going from Win3.1 to Win95 was nearly a no-brainer. Going from Windows Vista to Windows 7 was a no-brainer. Going from OS X 10.1 to 10.2 was an easy decision. OS X 10.4 to 10.5 was fairly easy.



    Windows 7 to Windows 8? OS X Snow Leopard to Lion? Meh.



    My parents have a later install of Vista and I've not seen any cause to upgrade, and we did have a coupon to upgrade for a very minimal fee at worst. I hadn't bothered to find that paperwork.



    At least with Apple, the upgrade cost was very low the last two times. Windows? I really don't think so. It gets hard to justify the cost of an OS upgrade when the upgrade cost is close to the market value of the computer, even if it scores high on compatibility. Sure, I know it will likely work fine, but the benefit for the cost doesn't seem to be there.



    I really have to wonder what fraction of users bother to upgrade their OS rather than just let it slide and eventually buy a new computer, which comes with the new OS included in the package, with a computer that should be well-suited for it rather than hoping you don't run into an incompatibility or otherwise unforseen limitation.
  • Reply 48 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post


    I will be upgrading from Windows 7 on my desktop, and also purchasing a tablet with Windows 8 at a later date. Most customers will get Windows 8 with a new system; more than 450 million people now have Windows 7 since launch, most as OEM versions. Customers who use Windows everyday will likely find value in upgrading to Windows 8, as I do.



    There are many welcome improvements across the board, including in desktop mode, startup/boot experience, resource usage, hardware support etc. This is of course is an Apple fan site, so I?m not surprised to see negative reactions to Windows, nor am I surprised to read carefully written articles that paint Microsoft plans and future in the worst light. I was once an Apple fan/user to, but personally I have seen the most innovation from Microsoft in recent years. Microsoft?s approach of sharing information, and getting customers involved in their products from an early stage is excellent, I enjoy reading how products are developed, not just reading predictable marketing rhetoric, labeling products magical, and insanely great.



    So far I have found the Start Screen to be better suited for touch; however I'm starting to find I like it with mouse and keyboard (which is improving before beta). As with many others I was initially worried this new start screen would slow down launching tasks etc. But after using the developer preview some time, I have found it has made me faster at launching tasks, and searching than Win7. I also enjoy the new snapped metro apps in combination with full applications. The fact that all the customizations are saved into the cloud is great, when the Beta arrives groupings of applications, and semantic zoom will be enabled, giving a much richer start screen than Win7.



    As someone who is power-user, I like the explorer ribbon, especially how it allows hotkeys for everything including floating tooltips which all activate dynamically, and a minimize mode, so you get the best of both worlds, a simplistic interface, with the equivalent of menu's, however more contextual, better layout, more visually rich, with hierarchy and grouping of tools - making explorer much more powerful than Finder in my opinion. There are other small thing some people would never notice, like you can now drag and drop into the breadcrumb hierarchy, the ribbon has many handy tools that used to be buried, now only requiring two clicks, or keyboard shortcuts. The task manager is also completely revamped, which any power user should be happy with. Other features like History Vault, give a more user friendly interface to backup/revert files (though personally I never found it that difficult in Win7), support for native VHD, USB3.0, ISO, zip, massive drives, improved hyper-v is also appealing to desktop users. Microsoft haven?t shown off the Windows Store yet or Xbox Live (something to replace games explorer), so there is still more features coming.



    Personally I have been using Microsoft?s free Security Essential product for a couple of years, and had no issues with viruses etc. This will now be baked into Windows 8 as standard, this could have been done ages ago, but as everyone knows Microsoft was a target for anti-trust lawsuits (while ignoring companies like Apple).



    Windows 8 is easily a much larger release in terms of features, for both desktop & touch features than any recent version of Mac OSX, so I don?t think Apple fans should dismiss it as being a piece of junk. Because I think most objective reviewers would find the current state of Windows 8 to be ambitious, fresh, full of good ideas, but buggy and incomplete (as a developer preview should be). That said I hope for some improvements before Beta, some of which have already been implemented.



    No one can predict whether Windows 8 tablet will sell very well or not. This is largely irrelevant to me, as I?m only interested in a real operating system on a tablet, not a basic stripped down toyshop of apps (which is in fact great for many people, or if that is your primary need for a tablet). So far Microsoft?s strategy is the only one that works for me, and I suspect there will be many others with the same needs. I hope Apple decides to do a variation of iPad with Mac OSX, and then I would consider them as an option in the future.



    ?There is no way i will downgrade from OSX Lion to a cloner Microsoft bug infested, unsecure, super expensive OS. No thanks.?

    Windows 7 has no bugs I have come across, with heavy usage and being a prime suspect to get a virus I have got nothing in the last 4 years (unsecure?). Yeah windows is expensive, but then my overclocked 2600K 4.6GHZ with Nvidia Geforce 580 3GB, is much faster and cheaper than any Mac, with a nice steel case to



    you sure sound like a microsoft employee who is trying to popularize windows and convert a few mac users.



    let me tell u I use the windows 7 at work and not only it's slow even with 4 gb of ram and it lags a lot, the ms office crashes ever so often and in all their mac-dock copying which is the new bar with the pop up windows, microsoft couldn't figure out how to show previews of their own word and excel files, meaning that if I have 10 excel files open and I hover over the pinned icon of Excel they all look like a green X and I have to tell the files apart by a truncated name which oftentimes is similar between files. Compare that with the elegant mac preview and you'll realize why windows will never equal mac.



    and windows 8... gosh design was the last thing on their mind. just a couple of examples

    - the convoluted wall full of post its and notes which the ms employee was proudly exhibiting as an inspiration for the new "metro" interface



    - the fact that in their video where they were showing how the copy is done between files, they had two alternatives. the first one they showed I said "they nailed it. I'd love to see a copy file box present the info in such an elegant, succinct and informational way. But then no, they had to opt for the second version, which is only an ugly, tweaked version of their current version of the box, which only has the ability of choosing between two overlapping files. obviously a conservative manager, a committee decision, based on "don't change what's familiar". if that was their decision at the get-go, to not change what's familiar, (because you couldn't be wrong with keeping the status quo, can you, unless you copy apple, which has its merits), if that was their idea then it explains why windows 8 for computer users will largely look and feel like windows 7. Don't fix anything that's broken, just put some lipstick on a pig by using a huge start menu instead of the normal bar.. Ugly and dumb



    When will ever microsoft invest in some design and have some original interface ideas?
  • Reply 49 of 137
    pokepoke Posts: 506member
    I seriously doubt Microsoft will get tablets right with Windows 8 but I've started to think there's more room above the iPad, with more powerful and more full-featured tablets, than there is below it (with smaller, budget tablets). In that respect, Microsoft might be in the right market, at least.
  • Reply 50 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Braden99 View Post


    There are already tablets available right now in the same form factor as iPad that are x86 with Windows on them (and for the last ten years in bulkier forms). I have heard Intel is bringing out a new mobile architecture every year. Oak Trail is the lastest available now, I believe the battery lasts 6-8 hours - but if you were rendering from Maya for instance I imagine less : ) . Obviously there is a trade off in battery life for the forseeable future with Windows x86 tablets, which I can live with in order to have a much more feature rich tablet. In any case art tablets like Cintiq need to be plugged into wall anyway.



    you forgot to say nobody was buying those "feature rich" tablets, in fact the late Steve Jobs (RIP) made the point that iPad 1 (no cameras, no multitasking at the beginning) sold more in its first 9 months on the market than all the other x86 tablets did for the last decade.



    quite a thrifty thing to overlook, don't you think?



    Also battery life twice as much as the other tablets may seem trivial, but it makes the difference between carrying a charger with u during the day or not. And in fact, iPad has 2 separate batteries inside, look at the tear-downs, whereas all other tablets only seem to have one.
  • Reply 51 of 137
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post




    At least with Apple, the upgrade cost was very low the last two times.



    That's true. Snow Leopard and Lion each cost only $29.



    The cost of Windows is a joke.



    There are a few games that I would like to play that are Windows only. There's no doubt that Windows always is going to have more games than Mac.



    But for the cost of Windows, it's not even worth considering. No way would I ever pay what Windows costs, just to play a couple of games, even though I'd like to have those games. It's not worth it.



    $29 is very un Apple-like prices. You'd think that Apple would be the expensive one, yet it is M$ with Windows that is charging people an arm and a leg for their OS.
  • Reply 52 of 137
    cmvsmcmvsm Posts: 204member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post


    Windows XP has sold over half a billion copies, and still commands about a third of the OS market ten years after it was released.



    I'd say that's pretty good going for a Fisher Price product.



    Yeah, there's a name for it. Monopoly.
  • Reply 53 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bobdylan View Post


    microsoft couldn't figure out how to show previews of their own word and excel files, meaning that if I have 10 excel files open and I hover over the pinned icon of Excel they all look like a green X and I have to tell the files apart by a truncated name which oftentimes is similar between files.



    You don't have Aero running.



    Click on Start and in the Start Search type Check the Windows Experience Index. You should see something that looks like this.



    Click on "Re-run the assessment" from the bottom right and wait about 5 minutes.



    If that doesn't auto-enable Aero click on Start and in the Start Search type Find and fix problems with transparency and other visual effects and run the wizard.



    If that still doesn't work you're either on a computer from 2005 (poor you ) or your network admins have inexplicably decided to turn Aero off.
  • Reply 54 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by big View Post


    I read the previous posts and realized, with dismay, that they're right: MS will continue to dominate PCs and therefore market share simply because their latest OS - irrespective of whether it's great or it's absolute crap - will come pre-inistalled



    As opposed to OSX - which does not come pre-installed?
  • Reply 55 of 137
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post


    As opposed to OSX - which does not come pre-installed?



    Of course it does. But Macs don't cost $149.
  • Reply 56 of 137
    cmvsmcmvsm Posts: 204member
    I just bought a netbook for my 6 year old son. The thing was only $160, but hey, he's only 6 and will probably drop it/use and abuse. I was very hesitant on Windows 7. I haven't owned anything Windows based in 8 years.



    Anyhow, opened it the other night to setup for Christmas, and it was having all kinds of problems hooking into my network. Mind you, I have 4 Apple systems in my house and 2 iPads, and they all connect with no effort at all. Doesn't matter if I unplug, reboot, upgrade firmware, etc. They all connect every time with no effort.



    In walks Windows 7 Starter. This is a POS right out of the gate. I can't imagine him opening for Christmas and the sorry thing takes two days and 3 calls to Gateway in order to make it work as intended. Just reaffirms that Microsoft just churns our junk each and every version, and if it weren't for their monopoly over big box computer companies and enterprise, they would have gone out of business a long time ago. A clone of something is and will never be as good as the original. I refuse to buy their Xbox, or anything else. I'll give my money to Sony or Samsung before MS.
  • Reply 57 of 137
    and some people said Sinofsky is the next SJ....

    ....very-big-LOL....

    ....not even close
  • Reply 58 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    $29 is very un Apple-like prices. You'd think that Apple would be the expensive one, yet it is M$ with Windows that is charging people an arm and a leg for their OS.



    You answered your own question there. When you say $29 is very un Apple-like, it's because you know you pre-paid the next 2 OS upgrade at Microsoft OS prices as part of your initial purchase.
  • Reply 59 of 137
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cmvsm View Post


    Yeah, there's a name for it. Monopoly.



    Monopoly? Did Apple stop selling Macs?
  • Reply 60 of 137
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post


    You answered your own question there. When you say $29 is very un Apple-like, it's because you know you pre-paid the next 2 OS upgrade at Microsoft OS prices as part of your initial purchase.



    I'm not sure what you mean.



    Do you mean that people who already bought and use Windows 7, will get Windows 8 for free?
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