Nest Learning Thermostat reportedly taken off Apple Store shelves

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  • Reply 121 of 231
    ascii wrote: »
    I love the idea of learning software, but don't think it's really appropriate in the case of a thermostat. At first glance it seems like an obvious application, but what you really want in this interconnected world is something that integrates with the mobile phone of each person living in the house. For example Apple could make a thermostat that runs iOS and receives geofencing events whenever an occupant is approaching the residence.
    Too late to be of any use, if the temperature is a few degrees off the desired temperature, it will take too long to effect the required change. This is where Nest excels, knowing what time I usually come home, what the outside temperature and humidity are (relates to effectiveness/efficiency), what the current inside temperature is, and my history of cooling times (how quickly it has cooled in the past), it knows what time to start to cool to reach the desired set point at the desired time. And remember, I don't have to tell it anything other than my desired temperatures for when I'm home and for when I'm away. So much more than programmable.
  • Reply 122 of 231
    sandorsandor Posts: 636member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post





    That looks $150 cheaper in the quality of presentation.

    Given they use an LCD out of the 90's, I don't know if I want to see or use their web interface, their human interface looks crummy and ugly. It looks like something slapped together and with that sort of look, the software probably isn't any good.


     


     


    all it needs is an up and down button to adjust the temperature. i could care less if that button is fancy or not, so long as it works and saves me real money, up front. 


     


     


    if you really want to be more efficient, and have full access, look at systems like Nexia http://www.nexiahome.com from Trane/IR/Schlage and such. Much more complete systems, and not much more expensive than Nest. A lot more fun for a DIYer too. 

  • Reply 123 of 231
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    But I don't want the thermostat to kick in once someone is home. I want it to kick in so the temperature is ideal as close to when, but before, someone gets home.

    Here's a scenario: Let's say I work all day and then have somewhere else to be for many hours in the evening. Let's say my evening destination takes me past my house so this geofencing will sense me coming home every time I drive in the direction of my home. I assume the next argument is that I can then manually disable the system but I don't want to do that each time.

    I want it to primary learn patterns and then predict when those patterns will most likely hit so it can activate based on programmed and learned behaviour, not because I'm somewhere closer to it.

    Then you have issues where not everyone has an smartphones which is really the only way to this. What if you have kids who come home after school or a babysitter or maid or many other people who won't be tied to your system with a linked smartphone? Like I said, I like the idea but not as a primary feature. Nest is on the right track.


    It seems like the complexity of the system is more than most people want to study and program. With multiple family members, unpredictable schedules and lack of accurate initial programming, the Nest could actually cost more than not using a thermostat at all. I wonder what percentage of people just turn the heat or A/C on/off manually. I know I do, but I so rarely need any temperature control I have not bothered to program my thermostat. My house in Central America doesn't even have heat or A/C because it is such an ideal temperature naturally. If you get cold or hot you just put on or take of clothing as necessary.

  • Reply 124 of 231
    sandor wrote: »

    all it needs is an up and down button to adjust the temperature. i could care less if that button is fancy or not, so long as it works and saves me real money, up front. 


    if you really want to be more efficient, and have full access, look at systems like Nexia http://www.nexiahome.com from Trane/IR/Schlage and such. Much more complete systems, and not much more expensive than Nest. A lot more fun for a DIYer too. 
    In total, nice but temperature control delivers much less than Nest. Why would you tout a device with less useful features?
  • Reply 125 of 231
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    mstone wrote: »
    It seems like the complexity of the system is more than most people want to study and program. With multiple family members, unpredictable schedules and lack of accurate initial programming, the Nest could actually cost more than not using a thermostat at all. I wonder what percentage of people just turn the heat or A/C on/off manually. I know I do, but I so rarely need any temperature control I have not bothered to program my thermostat. My house in Central America doesn't even have heat or A/C because it is such an ideal temperature naturally. If you get cold or hot you just put on or take of clothing as necessary.

    That's nice, but maybe you haven't noticed that not everyone lives in a climate that doesn't need heat or A/C. /s

    You are undoubtedly right. NEST isn't for everyone. People who don't have heat and A/C can't use it. People who aren't willing to even learn how to set the temperature can't use it unless they pay someone to set it up (although one has to wonder how they handle a conventional thermostat). People whose energy bills are extremely low won't get much value out of it.

    But why do people jump so quickly from "this isn't useful for 100% of the population" to "this product is no good"? It's actually a great product - and the fact that it's not for everyone doesn't detract from that.
  • Reply 126 of 231
    sandorsandor Posts: 636member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by diplication View Post





    In total, nice but temperature control delivers much less than Nest. Why would you tout a device with less useful features?


    what features? 


     


    there is honestly nothing that Nest provides that is actually useful or more efficient than a properly programmed thermostat with a web interface. they just throw it in a fancy package, create too-complicated electronics for it, and sell it to people too stupid to look for other options. I don't need a green leaf to tell me that i am saving energy when my HVAC system is off.

  • Reply 127 of 231

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wozwoz View Post


    It might looook cool, but it's just more wireless junk unnecessarily radiating your brain in your own home ... I need it like a tumour. No wireless in my house.



    ...and the fact that you just subjected yourself to a stronger EM field sitting at your computer typing that dumb comment than you would ever be exposed to from a Nest or wireless in your home doesn't concern you, right?  Because you don't actually understand electromagnetism.  Do you also refuse to have a microwave because it colloquially 'nukes' your food with radiation, even though their is no nuclear fission involved and thus the radiation isn't ionizing?

  • Reply 128 of 231

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    I found a review. For the price it doesn't seem bad and their iPhone app looks much better than their monochrome LCD but I'd gladly pay for Nest any day. The big issue is the Filtrete thermostat doesn't learn. It's programmable and you can access it remotely but you can't "set it and forget it."


     


    I bought that thermostat about a year ago, and I love it so far.  They've upgraded the iOS app several times since then, and it's much better than what they show in the article.  I'm not sure how much it's knocked off my energy bill as I bought it when I bought my condo, but I only pay $60 a month for electricity (leaving the temp at 72) so it can't be doing that poorly.


     


    I do like the Nest though.  Like others, I question the price a bit ($149 or $199 seems more reasonable), but I guess it depends on the application.  If you're a family living in a two story house it's probably more than worth it to have a couple of these things going, and I can see them saving you some money.  It probably wouldn't be any benefit to a single guy living in a condo, but I may eventually cave and buy one just because it looks cool lol.

  • Reply 129 of 231
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





     It's actually a great product - and the fact that it's not for everyone doesn't detract from that.


    I was just curious what percentage of the population just use their temperature control manually versus those who program it. 


     


    Personally, I prefer less complexity in my life. If I like to sit outside on the patio and leave the the sliding doors open I would do it. To have to override the thermostat that is wasting energy because it is trying to maintain an exact temperature while the doors are open is a hassle. I can be comfortable in a range of temperatures. Sometime there is a nice breeze and I like the windows open. To have my life dictated by a machine is something I try to avoid. If I want A/C I will turn it on myself.

  • Reply 130 of 231
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    mstone wrote: »
    <p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;">I was just curious what percentage of the population just use their temperature control manually versus those who program it. </p>
    According to Nest, and I am inclined to believe them, most people don't reprogram their thermostats their routines change or don't program them correctly.
    <p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;">Personally, I prefer less complexity in my life. If I like to sit outside on the patio and leave the the sliding doors open I would do it. To have to override the thermostat that is wasting energy because it is trying to maintain an exact temperature while the doors are open is a hassle. I can be comfortable in a range of temperatures. Sometime there is a nice breeze and I like the windows open. To have my life dictated by a machine is something I try to avoid. If I want A/C I will turn it on myself.</p>
    I could see tying a learning thermostat to your home's security system (or more accurately the sensors that know whether a door or window is open) would reduce some of the complexity for the user.
  • Reply 131 of 231
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Sorry I was a bit hard on you. I will stop here.
    No worries here. This is just a simple discussion.
    No need to plunge the knife in 227 times.
    After all, it's not like I'm trying to defend Samsung or say Android is far superior to iOS or anything crazy like that.
    ;-)
  • Reply 132 of 231
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    I could see tying a learning thermostat to your home's security system (or more accurately the sensors that know whether a door or window is open) would reduce some of the complexity for the user.


    Again with the complexity. Sorry the A/C won't work because someone cracked the bathroom window upstairs. You would need to have your smartphone app to find out which door or window was opened before the A/C would work. You would need to set thresholds for all kinds of stuff. How long has the door been open before shutting down the system. How much air leakage is occurring and under what circumstances, etc. Sometimes we would leave the kitchen window slightly open to hear the kids playing outside. Too many variables. No thanks. I'll spend my life living rather than wasting time configuring settings.

  • Reply 133 of 231
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    jragosta wrote: »
    That's nice, but maybe you haven't noticed that not everyone lives in a climate that doesn't need heat or A/C. /s
    You are undoubtedly right. NEST isn't for everyone. People who don't have heat and A/C can't use it.
    Exactly!
    If I could use one, I'd get it.
    I live in Colorado. Don't use heat at all in summer, late spring and early fall. Maybe +7 months.
    I have a swamp cooler, not A/C.
    I do have a programmable thermostat (that I have actually programmed correctly) and that works for my needs.
    I'll need a new furnace maybe this year (original furnace) so I'll definitely look into one but not sure if it would pay for itself in any savings, especially with a new efficient furnace.
  • Reply 134 of 231
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    mstone wrote: »
    Again with the complexity. Sorry the A/C won't work because someone cracked the bathroom window upstairs. You would need to have your smartphone app to find out which door or window was opened before the A/C would work. You would need to set thresholds for all kinds of stuff. How long has the door been open before shutting down the system. How much air leakage is occurring and under what circumstances, etc. Sometimes we would leave the kitchen window slightly open to hear the kids playing outside. Too many variables. No thanks. I'll spend my life living rather than wasting time configuring settings.

    You completely missed my point. The point is for devices to assist the user, not confound them. Same goes with cars, PCs, pretty much everything. We live in a world where pretty much every we touch is engineered by man. Even the food we eat.

    I clearly stated "reduce complexity for the user" which should give a clear indication that the user would not be dealing with less variables than they are now. That's the whole point of technology building upon itself. It's complex but the average person does not deal with its complexity unless they enjoy it or unless there is something that can be improved. That's what makes the iPhone the best smartphone, the Mac the best PC and Nest the best thermostat on the market.
  • Reply 135 of 231
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    chris_ca wrote: »
    Exactly!
    If I could use one, I'd get it.
    I live in Colorado. Don't use heat at all in summer, late spring and early fall. Maybe +7 months.
    I have a swamp cooler, not A/C.
    I do have a programmable thermostat (that I have actually programmed correctly) and that works for my needs.
    I'll need a new furnace maybe this year (original furnace) so I'll definitely look into one but not sure if it would pay for itself in any savings, especially with a new efficient furnace.

    Swamp cooler? You mean you have an airboat fan in your living room?
    399
  • Reply 136 of 231
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    I keep it between the alligator and the Cyprus tree. ;-)
    Actually, it's on the roof and blows into the hallway.
  • Reply 137 of 231
    focherfocher Posts: 687member
    chris_ca wrote: »
    Nest doesn't "intercommunicate" with anything. It runs by itself.
    You can control it (if you wish) and read the settings with iOS but the idea is to plug it in and forget about it.
    That's incorrect. Out of the box, Nest will use your Internet connection to monitor your local weather and adjust its behavior accordingly. In addition, it is Zigbee enabled and can be used in home automation configurations where it does things like lower/raise window shades.
  • Reply 138 of 231
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    You completely missed my point. The point is for devices to assist the user, not confound them. Same goes with cars, PCs, pretty much everything. We live in a world where pretty much every we touch is engineered by man. Even the food we eat.

     


    No, I understood your point precisely. I just don't agree with you. I'm suggesting there is a point where technology is getting in the way rather than assisting. I remember back in the late 80s when GM came out with all these digital control systems in their autos. The speedometer was digital numerical display, the temperature was click and hold to adjust a numerical reading as was the radio. All of it was much more difficult and distracting to use than the analog twist the knob type controls that proceeded it. They quickly changed back to the old style of controls the following year, and although they were digital behind the scenes they presented themselves as analog. I am not a digital interface and I don't live by numbers. Judging by the way most people drive, and spend money, they do seem to be a bit numerically challenged or else they just don't care about the posted speed limit or their current bank balance. You know what they say: There are three type of people in this world. Those who are good with numbers and those who are not.

  • Reply 139 of 231
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    mstone wrote: »
    No, I understood your point precisely. I just don't agree with you. I'm suggesting there is a point where technology is getting in the way rather than assisting. I remember back in the late 80s when GM came out with all these digital control systems in their autos. The speedometer was digital numerical display, the temperature was click and hold to adjust a numerical reading as was the radio. All of it was much more difficult and distracting to use than the analog twist the knob type controls that proceeded it. They quickly changed back to the old style of controls the following year, and although they were digital behind the scenes they presented themselves as analog. I am not a digital interface and I don't live by numbers. Judging by the way most people drive, and spend money, they do seem to be a bit numerically challenged or else they just don't care about the posted speed limit or their current bank balance. You know what they say: There are three type of people in this world. Those who are good with math and those who are not.

    Once again, even if you are correct (and you're undoubtedly exaggerating quite a bit), why do you insist on interpreting "it's not right for everyone" as "it's no good and no one needs it"?
  • Reply 140 of 231
    slang4artslang4art Posts: 376member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HKZ View Post


    Not really. 


     


    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draconian



     









    1.


    of or relating to Draco, 7th-century Athenian statesman andlawmaker, or his code of laws, which prescribed death for almost every offence


     


    I like that you linked to your own fail.

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