Phones are not tablets, so applying the same considerations to them regarding size doesn't make sense.
Unless you are among those who wish iPads had phone capability. Some months ago I mentioned that one of my co-workers was using his iPad with headphones when his iPhone rang and he had to pull out his earbuds, put down the iPad, pick up the iPhone and have his conversation. Obviously not a big deal, but it occurred to us then that it would be cool to be able to just take that call on the iPad.
There are, of course, some pretty significant limitations involved in using an iPad as a phone, including not being able to conveniently carry it around in your pocket or hold it to your ear, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for something smaller than a 9.7" iPad but bigger than a 4" iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
[...] this isn't an iPhone sale lost
As I mentioned earlier, I believe it may be. The phone population on the train that only a few months ago was *literally* over 90% iPhone 4/4S is now about 50/50 iPhones and large screen phones, and I honestly don't see many iPhone 5s. One every couple of days or so. It *seems* like iPhone sales ARE being lost to big screen devices, it least in that very small and geographically limited demo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
[...] and it certainly had nothing to do with a larger screen being preferred.
Again, based on what I hear others saying, I think it actually does. I can't offer anything definitive, just conversations with my own little peer group and casual chats with people on the train, but they all point to the big screen as the attraction. They may eventually become frustrated by battery life, but no one I've spoken to has complained about screen quality, processor speed, size/weight or construction quality. Either they don't care or the current crop are good enough that only tech snobs like us appreciate the difference.
If 5" is wanted, will a 6" or 7" also be great to you (all)? How about an iPad mini?
Maybe. There's probably a point of diminishing returns, but 4" @ 16:9 doesn't seem to be it. I would imagine that once it becomes too big to jam into a coat pocket and hold up to the ear with one hand when the headset isn't handy its appeal would wane. Up to that point I think people will be willing to compromise other factors for the perceived benefit of the larger screen.
... He panned all existing solutions, and he also stated (paraphrase) that "[they] don't think this size is enough to create great tablet apps."
To be fair, he did also mention (and framed his remarks somewhat with it), that the 7" tablets existed primarily because Apple had at that point, sewn up the market for the larger displays. The implication was that the other players couldn't get any large displays and were therefore stuck with the leftovers (the 7" screens), and were trying to make the best of it.
So he was sorta also saying that at least one reason behind the 7" tablets wasn't that anyone thought it was the perfect size, but that it was the only size product they could really make at the time.
I don't have any evidence, but personally, I think this was part of Jobs' and Apple's intention (to leave the competitors without supply), and that he was at least partially surprised by the prevalence of these 7" tablets and that people seemed to like them.
When polled, size was one of the least important features.
Really? Do you recall where you heard/read that? I'd be interested in figuring out why my (admittedly severely limited) personal experience is so much different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
I'm guessing that $$$ was the most important consideration for the majority of those people buying a larger phone.
I used to think so too, but there isn't that much difference in price between an iPhone 5 and an S3, at least here in Vancouver -- about $50. Interestingly though, the S3 is anywhere from $100 to $200 cheaper than the iPhone with a contract. I don't understand why there's so much more subsidy on the S3 than the iP5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
And this means what? They're not using them.
Again, with due respect, that's irrelevant. How they use them and what they do with them doesn't matter. They're BUYING them, so ipso facto NOT buying iPhones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
People are buying them because they're cheap-as-free™. They're buying them because they don't understand you don't need a Mac to use an iPhone. They're buying them because they're the only thing advertised, so they're the only thing they know about. They're buying them because they're something that isn't an Apple product. They're buying them because salesmen sell Android over the iPhone.
Likely all true. And some of them, many even, I'd argue, are buying them because they like the bigger screen. I really don't understand why iPhone proponents get defensive when that comes up. Is it because those who prefer the current form factor are concerned that if larger screens become popular it may cause Apple to change the iPhone in a way they don't like?
Again, with due respect, that's irrelevant. How they use them and what they do with them doesn't matter. They're BUYING them, so ipso facto NOT buying iPhones.
So say… just… okay, say I buy three tons of fertilizer and dump it… somewhere. Don't use it. Whatever. Then when seed companies come a-callin', they find out I didn't even use the fertilizer. Don't even have a field. I live on an island in the Pacific; zero arable land, no growing conditions.
Think they're gonna waste their time and money shipping some seeds to my local store?
I've used both. You're out of your mind if you swap a Retina 9'7" for a mini. They definitely serve different purposes, but to choose the mini to replace the full-size makes me glad I'm not anyone who would make that decision.
FWIW: Every person I know who has bought the iPad Mini also has either the 3rd or 4th generation iPad, the iPhone 4s or 5, a MacBook and/or an iMac. None of the product lines are cannibalizing other lines. They are augmenting them.
I like my phones small (lumia 900 IMHO lumia 920 is to big) and my tablets big (my ipad 4 is a replacement for a tablet at work being a civil engineer I need the big screen to view auto cad files). But for most people a 7" tablet is more portable to bad is ipad 2 hardware because I can't wait for games that use the new A6X...
Really? Do you recall where you heard/read that? I'd be interested in figuring out why my (admittedly severely limited) personal experience is so much different.
I used to think so too, but there isn't that much difference in price between an iPhone 5 and an S3, at least here in Vancouver -- about $50. Interestingly though, the S3 is anywhere from $100 to $200 cheaper than the iPhone with a contract. I don't understand why there's so much more subsidy on the S3 than the iP5.
It is true that people, when polled concerning size alone, prefer a size larger than 3.5". Between 4" and 4.5" is considered ideal. When polled about the overall experience, screen size drops close to the bottom of the list. [I'm sorry, I can't find the poll] On the other hand, I've read other polls, albeit with a small sample size, that indicate that people are happy with the current screen sizes between 4" and 4.5", larger screen sizes than this are not preferred... combined with the poll I first mentioned you can see why Apple sells as many iPhone 5s as it does. Once Apple hit 4" a sweet spot was found. Although the 5.5" Note 2 sells well, it does not sell 30 million or more units per quarter, not even close. Add to that the fact that size may be a small decision factor in purchasing this item. Hell, the stylus feature alone could be the reason for a lot of the purchases.
I still believe that the majority of the S3 purchases have nothing to do with the screen size, instead it has to do with $$$... as your comment indicates. There might only be a $50 difference without a contract but once you add a contract the price difference increases dramatically.
To be fair, he did also mention (and framed his remarks somewhat with it), that the 7" tablets existed primarily because Apple had at that point, sewn up the market for the larger displays. The implication was that the other players couldn't get any large displays and were therefore stuck with the leftovers (the 7" screens), and were trying to make the best of it.
I think Apple had taken the bulk of the quality product but the displays are apparently cut so you can alter the size and dimensions with relative ease. I understood the 7" tablets coming to market at or over the iPad price was because that was the only way they could make a product that would even come close to competing on price. Remember that pre-iPad the rumoured sweet spot for Apple was $999 with CES 2010 demos either being between $500-1000 or not having any price at all. It really was a huge waste of a CES that had so many prototypes that would be scrapped because the iPad was too good and too cheap to compete with. It's also kind of amazing how quickly tech does change that Amazon and Google can make 7" tablets that are cheaper than the iPad.
So say… just… okay, say I buy three tons of fertilizer and dump it… somewhere. Don't use it. Whatever. Then when seed companies come a-callin', they find out I didn't even use the fertilizer. Don't even have a field. I live on an island in the Pacific; zero arable land, no growing conditions.
Think they're gonna waste their time and money shipping some seeds to my local store?
Understood.
One *could* argue that if you're right and app development dries up because Android buyers aren't using apps, it will go largely unnoticed because the affected users don't use apps!
One *could* argue that if you're right and app development dries up because Android buyers aren't using apps, it will go largely unnoticed because the affected users don't use apps!
Tonight my wife told me that she wants the same phone our daughter has because it has a bigger screen making it easier to txt and play games.
The proliferation of big-screen phones I've seen on the train in the last three months tells me that LOTS of people want them and are BUYING them.
It's true that I may not be able to reach all the way across the screen with my thumb. Fortunately, I have two hands, and so do all those people who are using and apparently enjoying them.
Not me. In fact I'm not buying an iPhone 5 because I prefer the 4s size and format. But I can see that there is a market for them. And if you're keeping it in a handbag rather than trouser pocket, then compactness may not matter as much.
Relating that to the main thread point ... if Apple is seeing success with making an iPad range with different sizes, maybe that will translate back to the iPhone. I for one hope we see an iPhone range with both a larger size for those who want it, and one for those like me who are happy with the current 4s or max 5 size.
Not me. In fact I'm not buying an iPhone 5 because I prefer the 4s size and format. But I can see that there is a market for them. And if you're keeping it in a handbag rather than trouser pocket, then compactness may not matter as much.
Relating that to the main thread point ... if Apple is seeing success with making an iPad range with different sizes, maybe that will translate back to the iPhone. I for one hope we see an iPhone range with both a larger size for those who want it, and one for those like me who are happy with the current 4s or max 5 size.
1) The iPhone 5 is smaller overall than before. That is a big difference compared to the Android phones pre-LTE.
2) If there is a big enough market for a larger iPhone I think they will do it. I have no doubt they have run the numbers.
To be fair, he did also mention (and framed his remarks somewhat with it), that the 7" tablets existed primarily because Apple had at that point, sewn up the market for the larger displays. The implication was that the other players couldn't get any large displays and were therefore stuck with the leftovers (the 7" screens), and were trying to make the best of it.
So he was sorta also saying that at least one reason behind the 7" tablets wasn't that anyone thought it was the perfect size, but that it was the only size product they could really make at the time.
I don't have any evidence, but personally, I think this was part of Jobs' and Apple's intention (to leave the competitors without supply), and that he was at least partially surprised by the prevalence of these 7" tablets and that people seemed to like them.
That would make sense if it wasn't Samsung who made one of the first 7" tablets. I think they'd be able to supply themselves with plenty of 10" screens.
So say… just… okay, say I buy three tons of fertilizer and dump it… somewhere. Don't use it. Whatever. Then when seed companies come a-callin', they find out I didn't even use the fertilizer. Don't even have a field. I live on an island in the Pacific; zero arable land, no growing conditions.
Think they're gonna waste their time and money shipping some seeds to my local store?
... I used to think so too, but there isn't that much difference in price between an iPhone 5 and an S3, at least here in Vancouver -- about $50. Interestingly though, the S3 is anywhere from $100 to $200 cheaper than the iPhone with a contract. I don't understand why there's so much more subsidy on the S3 than the iP5. ...
There's not more subsidy, their cost on the S3 is less. Also, the carriers have more control over the user experience on Android phones and install their own key logger software to literally track everything the user does. That's why the sale people are under orders from the carriers to push Android phones. Also, there are the spiffs that the Android manufacturers pay the sales people, so between that and the carrier benefits and orders, that's what they are pushing on anyone who has the least uncertainty.
Android phones got big because they needed to put large batteries in them for LTE, and the screens are merely camouflage for the battery size.
They're not using the devices as a whole, as shown by usage stats.
You have to wonder if a good number of Android phones sold in "developing markets", which seem to make up the bulk of activations, don't even have data services available. Although, even in the U.S., Android is so far behind iOS in, for example, web usage stats that it makes the sales and activation numbers tossed around seem somewhat incredible.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Phones are not tablets, so applying the same considerations to them regarding size doesn't make sense.
Unless you are among those who wish iPads had phone capability. Some months ago I mentioned that one of my co-workers was using his iPad with headphones when his iPhone rang and he had to pull out his earbuds, put down the iPad, pick up the iPhone and have his conversation. Obviously not a big deal, but it occurred to us then that it would be cool to be able to just take that call on the iPad.
There are, of course, some pretty significant limitations involved in using an iPad as a phone, including not being able to conveniently carry it around in your pocket or hold it to your ear, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for something smaller than a 9.7" iPad but bigger than a 4" iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
[...] this isn't an iPhone sale lost
As I mentioned earlier, I believe it may be. The phone population on the train that only a few months ago was *literally* over 90% iPhone 4/4S is now about 50/50 iPhones and large screen phones, and I honestly don't see many iPhone 5s. One every couple of days or so. It *seems* like iPhone sales ARE being lost to big screen devices, it least in that very small and geographically limited demo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
[...] and it certainly had nothing to do with a larger screen being preferred.
Again, based on what I hear others saying, I think it actually does. I can't offer anything definitive, just conversations with my own little peer group and casual chats with people on the train, but they all point to the big screen as the attraction. They may eventually become frustrated by battery life, but no one I've spoken to has complained about screen quality, processor speed, size/weight or construction quality. Either they don't care or the current crop are good enough that only tech snobs like us appreciate the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
If 5" is wanted, will a 6" or 7" also be great to you (all)? How about an iPad mini?
Maybe. There's probably a point of diminishing returns, but 4" @ 16:9 doesn't seem to be it. I would imagine that once it becomes too big to jam into a coat pocket and hold up to the ear with one hand when the headset isn't handy its appeal would wane. Up to that point I think people will be willing to compromise other factors for the perceived benefit of the larger screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
... He panned all existing solutions, and he also stated (paraphrase) that "[they] don't think this size is enough to create great tablet apps."
To be fair, he did also mention (and framed his remarks somewhat with it), that the 7" tablets existed primarily because Apple had at that point, sewn up the market for the larger displays. The implication was that the other players couldn't get any large displays and were therefore stuck with the leftovers (the 7" screens), and were trying to make the best of it.
So he was sorta also saying that at least one reason behind the 7" tablets wasn't that anyone thought it was the perfect size, but that it was the only size product they could really make at the time.
I don't have any evidence, but personally, I think this was part of Jobs' and Apple's intention (to leave the competitors without supply), and that he was at least partially surprised by the prevalence of these 7" tablets and that people seemed to like them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
When polled, size was one of the least important features.
Really? Do you recall where you heard/read that? I'd be interested in figuring out why my (admittedly severely limited) personal experience is so much different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
I'm guessing that $$$ was the most important consideration for the majority of those people buying a larger phone.
I used to think so too, but there isn't that much difference in price between an iPhone 5 and an S3, at least here in Vancouver -- about $50. Interestingly though, the S3 is anywhere from $100 to $200 cheaper than the iPhone with a contract. I don't understand why there's so much more subsidy on the S3 than the iP5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
And this means what? They're not using them.
Again, with due respect, that's irrelevant. How they use them and what they do with them doesn't matter. They're BUYING them, so ipso facto NOT buying iPhones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
People are buying them because they're cheap-as-free™. They're buying them because they don't understand you don't need a Mac to use an iPhone. They're buying them because they're the only thing advertised, so they're the only thing they know about. They're buying them because they're something that isn't an Apple product. They're buying them because salesmen sell Android over the iPhone.
Likely all true. And some of them, many even, I'd argue, are buying them because they like the bigger screen. I really don't understand why iPhone proponents get defensive when that comes up. Is it because those who prefer the current form factor are concerned that if larger screens become popular it may cause Apple to change the iPhone in a way they don't like?
Originally Posted by v5v
Again, with due respect, that's irrelevant. How they use them and what they do with them doesn't matter. They're BUYING them, so ipso facto NOT buying iPhones.
So say… just… okay, say I buy three tons of fertilizer and dump it… somewhere. Don't use it. Whatever. Then when seed companies come a-callin', they find out I didn't even use the fertilizer. Don't even have a field. I live on an island in the Pacific; zero arable land, no growing conditions.
Think they're gonna waste their time and money shipping some seeds to my local store?
I've used both. You're out of your mind if you swap a Retina 9'7" for a mini. They definitely serve different purposes, but to choose the mini to replace the full-size makes me glad I'm not anyone who would make that decision.
FWIW: Every person I know who has bought the iPad Mini also has either the 3rd or 4th generation iPad, the iPhone 4s or 5, a MacBook and/or an iMac. None of the product lines are cannibalizing other lines. They are augmenting them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
Really? Do you recall where you heard/read that? I'd be interested in figuring out why my (admittedly severely limited) personal experience is so much different.
I used to think so too, but there isn't that much difference in price between an iPhone 5 and an S3, at least here in Vancouver -- about $50. Interestingly though, the S3 is anywhere from $100 to $200 cheaper than the iPhone with a contract. I don't understand why there's so much more subsidy on the S3 than the iP5.
It is true that people, when polled concerning size alone, prefer a size larger than 3.5". Between 4" and 4.5" is considered ideal. When polled about the overall experience, screen size drops close to the bottom of the list. [I'm sorry, I can't find the poll] On the other hand, I've read other polls, albeit with a small sample size, that indicate that people are happy with the current screen sizes between 4" and 4.5", larger screen sizes than this are not preferred... combined with the poll I first mentioned you can see why Apple sells as many iPhone 5s as it does. Once Apple hit 4" a sweet spot was found. Although the 5.5" Note 2 sells well, it does not sell 30 million or more units per quarter, not even close. Add to that the fact that size may be a small decision factor in purchasing this item. Hell, the stylus feature alone could be the reason for a lot of the purchases.
I still believe that the majority of the S3 purchases have nothing to do with the screen size, instead it has to do with $$$... as your comment indicates. There might only be a $50 difference without a contract but once you add a contract the price difference increases dramatically.
I think Apple had taken the bulk of the quality product but the displays are apparently cut so you can alter the size and dimensions with relative ease. I understood the 7" tablets coming to market at or over the iPad price was because that was the only way they could make a product that would even come close to competing on price. Remember that pre-iPad the rumoured sweet spot for Apple was $999 with CES 2010 demos either being between $500-1000 or not having any price at all. It really was a huge waste of a CES that had so many prototypes that would be scrapped because the iPad was too good and too cheap to compete with. It's also kind of amazing how quickly tech does change that Amazon and Google can make 7" tablets that are cheaper than the iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So say… just… okay, say I buy three tons of fertilizer and dump it… somewhere. Don't use it. Whatever. Then when seed companies come a-callin', they find out I didn't even use the fertilizer. Don't even have a field. I live on an island in the Pacific; zero arable land, no growing conditions.
Think they're gonna waste their time and money shipping some seeds to my local store?
Understood.
One *could* argue that if you're right and app development dries up because Android buyers aren't using apps, it will go largely unnoticed because the affected users don't use apps!
Originally Posted by v5v
One *could* argue that if you're right and app development dries up because Android buyers aren't using apps, it will go largely unnoticed because the affected users don't use apps!
Who says they're not using apps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
I usually agree with you Phil, but not on this.
I want a phone with a 5"-ish screen for myself.
Tonight my wife told me that she wants the same phone our daughter has because it has a bigger screen making it easier to txt and play games.
The proliferation of big-screen phones I've seen on the train in the last three months tells me that LOTS of people want them and are BUYING them.
It's true that I may not be able to reach all the way across the screen with my thumb. Fortunately, I have two hands, and so do all those people who are using and apparently enjoying them.
Not me. In fact I'm not buying an iPhone 5 because I prefer the 4s size and format. But I can see that there is a market for them. And if you're keeping it in a handbag rather than trouser pocket, then compactness may not matter as much.
Relating that to the main thread point ... if Apple is seeing success with making an iPad range with different sizes, maybe that will translate back to the iPhone. I for one hope we see an iPhone range with both a larger size for those who want it, and one for those like me who are happy with the current 4s or max 5 size.
1) The iPhone 5 is smaller overall than before. That is a big difference compared to the Android phones pre-LTE.
2) If there is a big enough market for a larger iPhone I think they will do it. I have no doubt they have run the numbers.
That would make sense if it wasn't Samsung who made one of the first 7" tablets. I think they'd be able to supply themselves with plenty of 10" screens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Who says they're not using apps?
I thought YOU did. Isn't that what you meant by:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
And this means what? They're not using them.
...and:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So say… just… okay, say I buy three tons of fertilizer and dump it… somewhere. Don't use it. Whatever. Then when seed companies come a-callin', they find out I didn't even use the fertilizer. Don't even have a field. I live on an island in the Pacific; zero arable land, no growing conditions.
Think they're gonna waste their time and money shipping some seeds to my local store?
?
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
... As I mentioned earlier, I believe it may be. ...
... Again, based on what I hear others saying, I think it actually does. ...
Yes, I know you believe these things, but you're simply wrong. People believe all sorts of things that aren't true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
... I used to think so too, but there isn't that much difference in price between an iPhone 5 and an S3, at least here in Vancouver -- about $50. Interestingly though, the S3 is anywhere from $100 to $200 cheaper than the iPhone with a contract. I don't understand why there's so much more subsidy on the S3 than the iP5. ...
There's not more subsidy, their cost on the S3 is less. Also, the carriers have more control over the user experience on Android phones and install their own key logger software to literally track everything the user does. That's why the sale people are under orders from the carriers to push Android phones. Also, there are the spiffs that the Android manufacturers pay the sales people, so between that and the carrier benefits and orders, that's what they are pushing on anyone who has the least uncertainty.
Android phones got big because they needed to put large batteries in them for LTE, and the screens are merely camouflage for the battery size.
Originally Posted by v5v
I thought YOU did. Isn't that what you meant by:
They're not using the devices as a whole, as shown by usage stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
They're not using the devices as a whole, as shown by usage stats.
You have to wonder if a good number of Android phones sold in "developing markets", which seem to make up the bulk of activations, don't even have data services available. Although, even in the U.S., Android is so far behind iOS in, for example, web usage stats that it makes the sales and activation numbers tossed around seem somewhat incredible.