Microsoft unveils Surface Book laptop & Surface Pro 4 tablet with new Surface Pen

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  • Reply 181 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    They're basing it off the observations I posted earlier. They're talking about the performance of the i7 version while mentioning the starter price of $899 (which comes with a Core m3).

    As if you can get a Surface Pro 4 for the same price as an iPad Pro that has the performance of a MBP.

    I stand by my earlier post that the iPad Pro will outperform the m3 based Surface Pro.

    Sounds intentionally disingenuous to me. If they're comparing the top-of-the-line Surface Pro they should say so, oh and also note it's a lot more expensive than $899.
  • Reply 182 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    Microsoft is a big sponsor of The Verge. They troll Apple all the time with extremely biased "reporting".

    And yet people refer to them as "iVerge". The hyperbole around this product is ridiculous. But it's not surprising as the narrative has already been set. I knew before the event started that the tech press would gush over whatever Microsoft announced. If anybody but Microsoft (and perhaps Google) released a laptop with that hideous hinge and a detachable display that only gets 3 hours battery life (what's the point?) the tech press would've been merciless in their mocking.
  • Reply 183 of 251
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    Microsoft is at least coming out with products that fit the windows 10 aim of providing a unified experience across devices. The Surface Pro 4 is extremely nice although it is really meant to be used in landscape mode. The aspect ratio makes portrait mode not quite as comfortable. On the positive site the hardware is well made, the stylus is included and integrated into the operating system and it does make for a really interesting dual purpose device. People who have been lamenting the rise of the typewriter should be happy that at least one company still feels that drawing and handwriting on a computer is important. The unfortunate negative side is that the stylus is not elegant. The tip is annoying and has been going back to the Wacom screens of early Tablet PC's. It still doesn't feel as good as pen/pencil and paper.

    The Surface laptop is not the first laptop with a detachable screen which can be used as a tablet. It is a step in the right direction though. Odd that more don't go that way. Having a typewriter glued to a screen always seemed wrong as a model for a laptop. Glad Microsoft went this way.

    One can only hope that Microsoft makes headway with these new devices and phones. The alternative of having only Google's Android system as a competitor to iOS is less than appealing. Pricing for the new Microsoft products seems high though perhaps the target market justifies it.

    In short, I feel they have come out with really interesting products that provide a clear alternative to iOS/OSX and Android/Chrome. The one thing that would have been nice would have been a move towards a 4:3 aspect ratio. Enough with these widescreen gadgets.
  • Reply 184 of 251
    I still remember the 2 reasons why a person like me who owned 5 PCs was initially attracted to iPad.

    When Ipad was launched I did not think I needed it. My sister-in-law gifted iPad 1 to my wife and that was when I discovered the app called Goodreader.

    With Goodreader I discovered i could replicate Windows file system on an iPad. Later on Goodreader kept adding new functionalities and I could now synced all my contents from PC to iPad via wifi daily.

    Goodreader app = reason 1

    Many many years ago I owned an IBM thinkpad that was designed with a sim tray. This means I could insert a SIM card in there and get mobile broadband access.
    I hated the time needed to boot up a Windows PC, sticked a broadband tongle just to have Internet access.

    Reason 2 = iPad 1 with cellular = instant on, instant access to Internet and instant productivity. For some strange reasons, laptop vendors still do not think it is important to include cellular sim tray with the laptop. This is probably the main reason why many consumers like me were attracted to iPad and smartphone initially. We want something truly mobile to surf the net and check email. Instant access to my files and not having to wait for long boot up to get things done.

    Initially I was happy to simply use iPad just for browsing and emailing but over times I found many good apps to replace various PC functions and began to dislike Windows as an operating system. Apps that I used daily, Goodreader, Ulysses, fantastical, 1password, Plex, scanbot and many others. I like the fact that these apps are regularly updated via app store. I stil use the PC for video editing, excel spreadsheet and photoshop but my mind has made up in that I will eventually just keep 1 PC and once I can get a photoshop and excel replacement app with iPad pro (need power user function and precise selection tool), I am likely to spend more time with iPad.

    It's not that I going to cut ties with Windows. But from owning 5 PCs for a greater part of my life, i can see myself keeping just 1 in future. Whereas I used to upgrade the CPU, graphic card, motherboard of my PCs every 2 years, i would rather now allocate my budgets to yearly iPad and iPhone upgrade.

    i am not an apple fanatic. Out of my 5 PCs, 3 are mac mini, 1 MacBook Air and 1 DIY tower with 6 hard disks, all are running Windows.
    If I am an apple fanatic the 3 Mac mini and the MacBook Air would be running Mac OS. Not once did I bothered to boot up in OS X because I am an expert in Windows and Windows PC management and I can get things done the instant Windows boot up. As much as i disliked Windows, it is just not worth the time and investment to set things up in OS X all over.

    iPad and iPhone won my heart because apple is really innovating and offering features that are well implemented and fine-tuned compared to vendors that would just throw features and hardwares for the sake of marketing. Consumers don't understand innovation, performance and usability. Case in point.... Stylus has been around for decades and Logitech has been selling keyboard for iPad 1 and suddenly vendors that packaged tablet with a keyboard or device with stylus are called "innovation"? There are lots of people around me who believed that an eight core mobile cpu with 3 gb RAM must be faster than a duo core mobile CPU with 2 gb RAM and these people pride themselves as tech experts. Thanks...please keep to your eight core cpu, as it is, ordering an iPhone on launch day has become harder each passing year.
  • Reply 185 of 251
    formosaformosa Posts: 261member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    The Microsoft fanboys would argue these are just reference designs to light the fire under OEMs to create better stuff. I don't buy that. You can create reference specs without designing and selling your own product. Look what Intel did with Ultrabooks. Also I think it's really unfair to put all the blame on OEMs. It's easy for Microsoft to make great hardware when they don't have to worry about selling in volume, being profitable or competing on cost. Microsoft is basically catering to diehards that have money to spend. We'll see how OEMs react now that Microsoft is competing with them in the laptop space. I would say we'll see more Chromebooks but then Google decided to make a premium tablet running Android so who knows how committed they are to Chrome OS?

     

    Agreed, somewhat. If Surface 4/Pro sales take off, then that may cut into sales by Dell/Toshiba/etc., making them mad. So does MS want to be more like Apple (vertical), or is MS fed up with the rate of progress/innovation of their hardware OEMs?

     

    The only comparison I can make is Google's limited production of smartphones to Android diehards, the sales of which probably didn't affect their hardware OEMs' sales (my guess). I guess we'll have to wait to see if Surface 4/Pro sales become significant or not.

     

    Edited for clarity.

  • Reply 186 of 251
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by formosa View Post

     

     

    Agreed, somewhat. If Surface 4/Pro sales take off, then that may cut into sales by Dell/Toshiba/etc., making them mad. So does MS want to be more like Apple (vertical), or is MS fed up with the rate of progress/innovation of their hardware OEMs?

     

    The only comparison I can make is Google's limited production of smartphones to Android diehards, the sales of which probably didn't affect their hardware OEMs' sales (my guess). I guess we'll have to wait to see if Surface 4/Pro sales become significant or not.

     

    Edited for clarity.


     

    " So does MS want to be more like Apple (vertical), or is MS fed up with the rate of progress/innovation of their hardware OEMs?"

     

    I say both. I agree with Rogifan, these devices are not reference designs. You don't go through all that trouble investing in and creating your own hardware and slowly expand your retail presence just to sell "reference designs." This is MS' hardware division taking a big page out of Apple's playbook.  Also, with declining PC sales (by PC, I mean traditional PC's), MS knows there's no money to be made selling operating systems so the only way to "save" their Windows brand and make good margins off of Windows, is make and sell their own hardware.  And this has to get their OEM's worried somewhat, I'm sure.

     

    Within MS, you now have one division (Consumer Devices) competing with Apple, and another division (Software / Services) competing with Google and getting their software on all platforms. This creates potential conflict. On the one hand the Software / Services division needs to get their software in front of as many eyeballs as possible to make a good return. OTOH, the Devices division needs a way to differentiate from iOS / Android hardware which is difficult to do considering that a lot of MS' software is not only available on other platforms, but they tend to get on iOS or Android first.

  • Reply 187 of 251
    jblongzjblongz Posts: 165member

    I notice the Surface book has an opening bezel and lower body very similar to Apple's unibody design.

  • Reply 188 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by formosa View Post

     

    Agreed, somewhat. If Surface 4/Pro sales take off, then that may cut into sales by Dell/Toshiba/etc., making them mad. So does MS want to be more like Apple (vertical), or is MS fed up with the rate of progress/innovation of their hardware OEMs?

     

    The only comparison I can make is Google's limited production of smartphones to Android diehards, the sales of which probably didn't affect their hardware OEMs' sales (my guess). I guess we'll have to wait to see if Surface 4/Pro sales become significant or not.

     

    Edited for clarity.

     

    I think it's unfair to throw OEMs under the bus for lack of innovation. There have bee some really nice laptops from OEMs. Prior to Surface Book everyone was ogling over the Dell XPS 13. Now it's as if that doesn't even exist. And of course it was Bill Gates that said hardware would just be a cheap commodity. So what are OEMs supposed to do when they share the same OS and have razor thin margins? The products become cheap and full of bloatware. I think Microsoft bears some of the responsibility for the predicament OEMs are in.
  • Reply 189 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JBlongz View Post

    I notice the Surface book has an opening bezel and lower body very similar to Apple's unibody design.

     

    I don't think anything Apple has done had been copied more than the Unibody. And it's easy for your laptop to look nice when it doesn't have to be covered in Intel and Windows stickers. ;)
  • Reply 190 of 251
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    sog35 wrote: »

    looks like a nutcracker
    Haha,it sure is weird looking. I Think without the keyboard it's a nice looking tablet, that keyboard though yuck. I do have to say though, if I made my living with Photoshop, it would definitely be on top of my list. Dedicated GPU, 16GB Ram, 3000 x 2000 resolution, Stylus, the works. I just wouldn't want that ugly ass keyboard.
  • Reply 191 of 251
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member

    I watched the entire Microsoft announcement presentation on TWiT's podcast of the event and it was nearly unbearable in parts. Some of their presenters were worse than the "ShamWOW" guy.

  • Reply 192 of 251
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

     

    I watched the entire Microsoft announcement presentation on TWiT's podcast of the event and it was nearly unbearable in parts. Some of their presenters were worse than the "ShamWOW" guy.




    Interesting. You wouldn't get that from following the blogosphere. I've seen some comments saying it was a better presentation than the 2007 iPhone keynote. Crazy, I know.

  • Reply 193 of 251
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CanukStorm View Post

     



    Interesting. You wouldn't get that from following the blogosphere. I've seen some comments saying it was a better presentation than the 2007 iPhone keynote. Crazy, I know.




    If one were to turn the sound off, it may have been tolerable. Microsoft is liberally stealing from Apple's playbook now and it shows. Microsoft now wants people to "love" their software. They want people to "love" their hardware, etc. Coming from a bunch of carnival barkers (especially Panos Panay and Bryan Roper who both sound like they should be selling "miracle" knife sets on Coney Island), it's pretty hard to take.

     

    Here it is, if you're game:  https://twit.tv/shows/twit-live-specials/episodes/261?autostart=false

  • Reply 194 of 251
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

     



    If one were to turn the sound off, it may have been tolerable. 


     

    Curious, what did you find unbearable about it?

  • Reply 195 of 251
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    rogifan wrote: »
    The Verge says the iPad Pro is "far less powerful" than the Surface Pro 4. What are they basing that on? We really know nothing about the A9X chip.

    Initial GeekBench benchmarks have been released, though it's still one of the fastest Arm CPU's on the market, you just can't compare it to the Intel i5 or i7 found in the Surface Pro 4, though I'm sure it get's pretty close to the Intel M CPU found in the MacBook. Which begs the question, will we ever see an ARM based Macbook. I would be all over that, we'll if it also had a touchscreen or at the very least support Apple's new stylus as I will no longer be buying another laptop without such features. It's the reason why I'm buying the Google Pixel C, i'm going to replace Android with Arch Linux. Since the Pixel uses the X1, though not an A9, has similar performance. There are also native Nvidia drivers for it's Maxwell based (Nvidia Titan technology) 256 CUDA core GPU, with goodies like 4k encoder and decoder embedded into the chip for full 60FPS 4K playback and encoding. As a new GPU compute junky, who really likes CUDA, this machine is a God send, not to mention aesthetically is absolutely gorgeous. I will be using it in conjunction with my 5 Nvidia Jetson K1 Development boards in which are stacked and has been made into cluster, GPU Compute, Render Farm little wonder. I've already installed Linux on my Nvidia Shield TV and it works quite well, not just that but I can run apps like Blender without so much as a hiccup, in fact it's like I'm using a machine that was purposely made for this app. When rendering, the cluster clicks in and finishes my projects in a fraction of the time that an iMac 5K could do it in. The power of GPU's. I would love to see Apple release the A9 to other OEM's, though from a Linux stand point, PowerVR really sucks, so maybe not that enthusiastic.
  • Reply 196 of 251
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CanukStorm View Post

     

     

    Curious, what did you find unbearable about it?




    I added more to the post. See above.

  • Reply 197 of 251
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Relic View Post





    Initial GeekBench benchmarks have been released, though it's still one of the fastest Arm CPU's on the market, you just can't compare it to the Intel i5 or i7 found in the Surface Pro 4, though I'm sure it get's pretty close to the Intel M CPU found in the MacBook. Which begs the question, will we ever see an ARM based Macbook. I would be all over that, we'll if it also had a touchscreen or at the very least support Apple's new stylus as I will no longer be buying another laptop without such features. It's the reason why I'm buying the Google Pixel C, i'm going to replace Android with Arch Linux. Since the Pixel uses the X1, though not an A9, has similar performance. There are also native Nvidia drivers for it's Maxwell based (Nvidia Titan technology) 256 CUDA core GPU, with goodies like 4k encoder and decoder embedded into the chip for full 60FPS 4K playback and encoding. As a new GPU compute junky, who really likes CUDA, this machine is a God send, not to mention aesthetically is absolutely gorgeous. I will be using it in conjunction with my 5 Nvidia Jetson K1 Development boards in which are stacked and has been made into cluster, GPU Compute, Render Farm little wonder. I've already installed Linux on my Nvidia Shield TV and it works quite well, not just that but I can run apps like Blender without so much as a hiccup, in fact it's like I'm using a machine that was purposely made for this app. When rendering, the cluster clicks in and finishes my projects in a fraction of the time that an iMac 5K could do it in. The power of GPU's. I would love to see Apple release the A9 to other OEM's, though from a Linux stand point, PowerVR really sucks, so maybe not that enthusiastic.



    But the iPad Pro hasn't been released yet. I'm curious how they already have Geekbench scores for that device.  The iPhone 6S Plus is on par, performance wise, with the low-end rMB, and yes that's based on Geekbench scores. No way the iPad Pro is on the same level as a rMB. I would say closer to the 13" rMBP.

  • Reply 198 of 251
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CanukStorm View Post

     



    But the iPad Pro hasn't been released yet. I'm curious how they already have Geekbench scores for that device.  The iPhone 6S Plus is on par, performance wise, with the low-end rMB, and yes that's based on Geekbench scores. No way the iPad Pro is on the same level as a rMB. I would say closer to the 13" rMBP.




    Yes, where exactly are these Geekbench scores for the unreleased iPad Pro?

  • Reply 199 of 251
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

     



    I added more to the post. See above.




    You might find this a little more unbearable;

     

    http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/7/9470861/microsoft-ceo-satya-nadella-interview-video-surface-book-windows-10

  • Reply 200 of 251
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Relic View Post





    Initial GeekBench benchmarks have been released, though it's still one of the fastest Arm CPU's on the market, you just can't compare it to the Intel i5 or i7 found in the Surface Pro 4, though I'm sure it get's pretty close to the Intel M CPU found in the MacBook. Which begs the question, will we ever see an ARM based Macbook. I would be all over that, we'll if it also had a touchscreen or at the very least support Apple's new stylus as I will no longer be buying another laptop without such features. It's the reason why I'm buying the Google Pixel C, i'm going to replace Android with Arch Linux. Since the Pixel uses the X1, though not an A9, has similar performance. There are also native Nvidia drivers for it's Maxwell based (Nvidia Titan technology) 256 CUDA core GPU, with goodies like 4k encoder and decoder embedded into the chip for full 60FPS 4K playback and encoding. As a new GPU compute junky, who really likes CUDA, this machine is a God send, not to mention aesthetically is absolutely gorgeous. I will be using it in conjunction with my 5 Nvidia Jetson K1 Development boards in which are stacked and has been made into cluster, GPU Compute, Render Farm little wonder. I've already installed Linux on my Nvidia Shield TV and it works quite well, not just that but I can run apps like Blender without so much as a hiccup, in fact it's like I'm using a machine that was purposely made for this app. When rendering, the cluster clicks in and finishes my projects in a fraction of the time that an iMac 5K could do it in. The power of GPU's. I would love to see Apple release the A9 to other OEM's, though from a Linux stand point, PowerVR really sucks, so maybe not that enthusiastic.

     

     

    Uh, "one of the fastest"? Sorry, it's THE fastest ARM processor out there. By a landslide.

     

    I see you're still over-hyping Nvidia processors. Funny after you claimed the K1 64bit processor was so advanced Nvidia stopped making it and went back to using ARM A57 cores for the X1.

     

    A9 clocked lower yet smokes the pants off the 64bit K1. Despite Nvidia claiming they'd have the highest IPC of any ARM processor. It wasn't even as fast as the A7 in terms of IPC.

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