Apple resists MacBook, iPad Pro convergence as Microsoft struggles with Surface Windows 10 hybrids

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  • Reply 201 of 399
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Fast boot times, basically impervious to viruses and malware, simple to use, good battery life, light, great for multiple users...

    youve just described a macbook.

    EDIT: Not entirely certain if you were saying Chromebooks couldn't run VM's or Microsoft Office apps? You might do a bit of checking if that's your belief.

    as far as i know there is no native version of MS Office for CB -- just web. Photoshop can be streamed. but both require being online, and streaming uses more battery.

    i see theres a headline that VMWare is coming out with a CB client.
  • Reply 202 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    Microsoft clearly has Apple envy. Look we have a design studio with CNC machines too!

    [img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSRkS97XAAA26E-.png:large[/img]
  • Reply 203 of 399
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    omgomg1 wrote: »
    As for the Monopoly its more of metaphor since Apple likes to walk that fine line between it.

    english may not be your native language, but no, Apple hasnt come close to walking the fine line line of being a monopoly. being a monopoly requires a very high market share, and neither OS X nor iOS come close to it.
  • Reply 204 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,277member
    nolamacguy wrote: »
    youve just described a macbook.
    But affordable for almost anyone. For those just web-surfing, checking email, doing on-line research, reading news, doing a little writing, keeping track of finances and such a decent Chromebook serves the purpose just as well as a MacBook doesn't it, but costing hundreds of dollars/euros less?

    EDIT: If we reverse your original question: What does the typical casual computer user need to do on a full-blown Mac or Windows machine that they couldn't do on a decent Chromebook? I'll grant you it's not meant for power-users, serious artists, or music professionals but that doesn't describe home users in general.
  • Reply 205 of 399
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    enature wrote: »
    It appears you confuse an illustration of Apple's weakness (such as the "toaster/refrigerator" case) with the actual reasons Apple is on its downward path. This thread, however, is not about those reasons. And to keep it short I only focused on illustrations relevant to the thread.
    But another example of how far Apple fell behind the innovation curve is Cook's very late attempt to catch up with Samsung on the phablet market. Back in 2012 it was clear as day that larger screens were in, yet Cook dragged Apple's feet for over 2 years before eventually bringing 4.7" and 5.5" screens to the iPhone. Again, this is just an illustration but not the reason Apple will fall.

    ok so this is classic APPLE IS DOOOM narrative and total rubbish, but let me correct you -- Ive has stated publicly they of course experimented with large iphones, but even during the iphone 4 era it was still too thick, making it bulky, and in their opinion, undesireable. they held onto it until they could thin it down (iphone 6). so trying to pretend they didnt have one, and that it's Cooks fault, is nonsense.

    apple is not in a downward path. thats just troll narrative rubbish.
  • Reply 206 of 399
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    But affordable for almost anyone. For those just web-surfing, checking email, doing on-line research, reading news, doing a little writing, keeping track of finances and such a decent Chromebook serves the purpose just as well as a MacBook doesn't it, but costing hundreds of dollars/euros less?

    EDIT: If we reverse your original question: What does the typical casual computer user need to do on a full-blown Mac or Windows machine that they couldn't do on a decent Chromebook? I'll grant you it's not meant for power-users, serious artists, or music professionals but that doesn't describe home users in general.

    your new use case is perfectly suitable for an ipad. so again -- what does a CB do that another device cannot? what is its reason for being? its a notebook that cant run most desktop software.
  • Reply 207 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,277member
    nolamacguy wrote: »
    your new use case is perfectly suitable for an ipad. so again -- what does a CB do that another device cannot? what is its reason for being? its a notebook that cant run most desktop software.
    :\ I suspected you'd prefer not to answer what I actually asked. You were the one bringing up a MacBook.

    EDIT: ...and not to encourage your goalpost moving yet again but new Chromebooks with good displays and comparable storage are still less expensive than new full-size iPads.
  • Reply 208 of 399
    gatorguy wrote: »

    The problem is with how the AI site is laid out, it is impossible to tell if a post has been replied to unless you read every post. This is something that the site could improve on.
    However it is nice to know that when someone makes a post that is factually incorrect there are plenty of people who are can correct their mistakes.






    [@]Suddenly Newton[/@], you really think there's a lack of posters correcting anything misstated about Apple here? :smokey:

    Thanks to each of you by the way. Sincerely.
  • Reply 209 of 399
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    bkkcanuck wrote: »
    I thought R was the goto standard these days....

    R is a data analysis package that grad students use to analyze data and such ... It's open source which is nice. Very useful but it's not really what I was talking about. I don't think it runs under iOS. It does run under OSX although it used to require X Windows. It runs on the Surface in legacy mode.
  • Reply 210 of 399
    kpomkpom Posts: 660member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by enature View Post

     

    It appears you confuse an illustration of Apple's weakness (such as the "toaster/refrigerator" case) with the actual reasons Apple is on its downward path. This thread, however, is not about those reasons. And to keep it short I only focused on illustrations relevant to the thread.

    But another example of how far Apple fell behind the innovation curve is Cook's very late attempt to catch up with Samsung on the phablet market. Back in 2012 it was clear as day that larger screens were in, yet Cook dragged Apple's feet for over 2 years before eventually bringing 4.7" and 5.5" screens to the iPhone. Again, this is just an illustration but not the reason Apple will fall.


     

    I think this had more to do with the way iOS was written. Since Steve Jobs had declared 3.5" to be the "perfect" size, Scott Forstall never programmed in resolution independence into iOS the way it is in Android. So to make a larger screen feasible, Apple had to re-write iOS.

  • Reply 211 of 399
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    kpom wrote: »
    I think this had more to do with the way iOS was written. Since Steve Jobs had declared 3.5" to be the "perfect" size, Scott Forstall never programmed in resolution independence into iOS the way it is in Android. So to make a larger screen feasible, Apple had to re-write iOS.

    Is resolution independence in both iOS and OSX? That seems to be an area where Windows does better. If I run my iMac at a higher resolution the text becomes tiny and there is no overall system scaling method. So while you can be ncrease the size of text in various applications you end up with tiny menu fonts. In iOS resolutions seem to be fixed according to the device.
  • Reply 212 of 399
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,572member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pmcd View Post



     If I run my iMac at a higher resolution the text becomes tiny and there is no overall system scaling method. So while you can be ncrease the size of text in various applications you end up with tiny menu fonts.

     

    This point has been made completely moot for OS X by the retina displays. You scale to whatever size you want the interface to be at, and it will always be rendered at the display's full resolution. 

  • Reply 213 of 399
    nolamacguy wrote: »
    riiight. tell me again what a Chrome OS notebook can do that its competitors cant? run windows? no. run office? no. run VMs? no. so...what is its reason for being?
    Cost of ownership probably approaches 2 orders of magnitude below a windows desktop which is apparently extremely compelling.
  • Reply 214 of 399
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spheric View Post

     

     

    This point has been made completely moot for OS X by the retina displays. You scale to whatever size you want the interface to be at, and it will always be rendered at the display's full resolution. 




    I think he is talking about this setting.

     

  • Reply 215 of 399
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    spheric wrote: »
    This point has been made completely moot for OS X by the retina displays. You scale to whatever size you want the interface to be at, and it will always be rendered at the display's full resolution. 

    Can you scale the text in the menus on the desktop? In any case, I don't have a Retina iMac. It used to be that on my Mac Mini connected to our TV I could use a hack which sort of gave you crisp text at a large size. That was always the problem with the Mini connected to a TV. Unfortunately, I had to move to a NUC connected to a TV because with Windows I could scale everything.

    Apple had been promising resolution independence for years. Have they given up on that? Even with a Retina display you would want some control over global scaling. On the iPad Air2 which has a Retina display changing the scaling does not result in global changes. It changes the size of text in apps that support " Dynamic Type". This doesn't seem to include the top menus in Settings.
  • Reply 216 of 399
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,422member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Coatsey View Post

     

    1) Try using the screen as tablet only, it is too long and after a short while it gets awkward and feels heavy to hold.

     

    2) Windows 10 and the app's that MS say are touch orientated is simply not.  I tried to use OneNote in 'Tablet Mode', i.e. touch only and what a mess.  When you touch the screen the onscreen keyboard does not appear.  So I look for the key board at the bottom right but hey it's disappeared.  The senior sales guy, I was referred to him as a result of the issue, said it was because I, as was everyone, expected to use the pen only.  Since when did OneNote become just a pen, drawing application...?  I said I used OneNote a lot and wanted to use the onboard keyboard.   No not possible when in tablet mode.  So basically I said to the guy, do you not think this is making the Surface Book a very niche product if you can only use OneNote, and many many other things, with a pen when in tablet mode?

     

    3) At the priced quotes the OS and User Interface (UI) need to be slick, Windows 10 is smile not a touch UI nor is it a tablet that can compete wit true tablet designs, OS and apps designed for touch.

     

    So I have gone from yep I want one to I might actually buy the iPad Pro. In short I have done a 360 degree turnaround on both products...  Wow this tells me even more, touch before you buy.  If you want to write lots of notes because they have drawings to and can only afford one key machine then maybe a Surface Book or Pro 4 but the drawbacks I feel are numerous and this is still a niche reason.

     

    As basic laptop, $600 and a table from Android manufacturers or an iPad will serve the majority better.  Oh and I will suggest, IMHO, that the go to device 80% of the time will be a tablet.  Why, because it cover 80+ % of what we do 90% of the time, email, surfing, documents, note taking, games and so on.  


     

    1)  You mention something about the weigh of the SB tablet, and how you felt it heavy to hold.  Do you know that you will have the same weight experience with the iPad Pro since both weight nearly the same? (1.6lbs vs 1.57lbs). 

     

    2)  About universal apps, yes they need to do a lot of work .  Still, I love how with a docking station I can replace my notebook / desktop and use it with my 23" monitor and keyboard / mouse and access all my applications.  And when I'm on the road, I can use Office Mobile, that is touch optimized and supports the stylus.  That's another reason I went with the SP4 over a new Mac and iPad. 

    Regarding the OneNote problem, I read demo units were pre production models.  Maybe the firmware and drivers update that was released yesterday fix all of that. 

     

    3) I don't see any problem with the UI.  It's different fom iOS and OS X, but not better or worst.  I love how it changes from desktop IU to touch UI when you remove the keyboard.


     

    Quote:


    So in summary I was underwhelmed when hands-on with the new MS Tablet's which was a shock.  I walked straight out of the store and into the Apple store and bought my 14 son an MacBook 12 inch to replace his Surface Book 3 running Windows 10.  I also did not end up ordering the 1TB Surface Book, wow, it goes to show you it's about the total package, hardware, OS, and software and currently that is not MS which is a shame as I was all set... 


    My experience was the opposite.  In my case, I'm considering the Surface Pro 4 instead of a new Mac.  I love the stylus for OneNote and the screen looks far better than the MBA and even the Macbook. Plus the docking station is a great addition.  For me, it's the total package. 

  • Reply 217 of 399
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,422member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    These who wish it were running OS X haven't yet gotten it. The entire purpose is to not run OS X. The truth is that OS X is no more suited to a tablet form than Win 10 is.?

    I tried Windows 10 in a Surface and was a very positive experience.  Maybe is not perfect, but is very close to be a great OS for 2 in 1 devices. 

  • Reply 218 of 399
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,422member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    I get tired of hearing about Surface. surface is just a small sized, and pretty expensive for the Windows world, portable Windows device. Nothing more.



    So, yes, it runs most of what a small Windows device can run. But it also has all of the headaches of a Windows device. So what's so special there? I don't know of anything.



    In your post I would change "Surface" for "Macbook" and "Windows" for "Apple", and then it would make sense.  :D

  • Reply 219 of 399
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,422member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    Ah, how you love to twist things my boy. I buy a lot of things because I like to try them out, and play around with them. I can afford whatever I want, and so, why not?



    The difference is that you really do need a stylus with Windows tablets, and the keyboard as well. You also need a mouse or trackpad. Despite one guy here claiming his girlfriend does work with her Surface without those, it's very difficult indeed. You don't need them with an iPad, but at times, they are useful.



    What defines if you need a keyboard and stylus is the app and not the device.  Do I need a keyboard to see a movie in a Surface Pro or iPad Pro?  No.  What if I want to edit a document or work in a spreadsheet?  Won't it better with a keyboard, either be in an iPad Pro or a Surface Pro?  Of course it will be better.  Same as the Pen / Pencil with drawing or note taking applications. 

  • Reply 220 of 399
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,422member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    No, it wouldn't. It would be as bad as the Surface. There's a company that buys various Macbook models and puts them in a tablet case. I tried one a few years ago, and it's really not worth it. It's really a pain to use.



    No, it would be far worst than a Surface, since OS X do not have a touch UI at all.  At least MS is doing very good creating a UI for touch and mouse / keyboard. 

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