Apple resists MacBook, iPad Pro convergence as Microsoft struggles with Surface Windows 10 hybrids

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  • Reply 241 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    In my opinion the Surface Book is an over engineered device. I remember when the Chromebook Pixel came out I thought this was really designed for the tech press more than anything else. It was hey we can do premium, sleek hardware too. And sure enough sites like The Verge slobbered all over it. I feel the same way with the Surface Book. All the PR around it is Microsoft saying, we can be like Apple too! Look we have a design studio with big fancy CNC machines too. All they need is someone with an English accent explaining how they carved it out of a single block of magnesium.



    Considering the tablet portion of the Surface Book only gets 2-4 hours battery life what's the point? I'll bet any money 99% of the people buying this device will never detach the screen. They'll use it as a laptop, which is always what they wanted anyway, which then begs the question what is the Surface Pro for?

     

    "Considering the tablet portion of the Surface Book only gets 2-4 hours battery life what's the point?"

     

    That's just it. If you click on the links to the two WIRED articles that were posted, even the Surface design team doesn't think of the detached screen as a full tablet. it's a "clipboard",  only there for specific purposes.  It'll be interesting to see a year from now, how the market takes to this device.

  • Reply 242 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    jmgregory1 wrote: »
    One thing I find interesting that hasn't been talked about with regard to the SB, is that although they made the case with magnesium, which is generally 33% lighter than aluminum, it really isn't lighter than comparable laptops.

    And given magnesium's greater transference of heat, it will be interesting to see how hot they run and what that will mean in real world use. It will also be cool to one go up in flames because magnesium burns wicked hot. I guess a great added use case would be you could shave off pieces of your SB and use them to start a fire...in case you find yourself in the jungle with nothing but your SB.

    I wonder why they chose magnesium over aluminum. I'm just not a fan of the design. It just looks really washed out. Perhaps if it was a slightly darker color or the keyboard contrasted with the rest of the case. And putting home/end page up/page down on the function keys is an absolute no go for me. I guess the people designing this laptop don't use Excel and keyboard shortcuts.
  • Reply 243 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CanukStorm View Post

     

    Like I mentioned in my previous post, iOS 9 / OSX 10.11 are not perfect and I acknowledge that they have bugs.  But compared to x.0 releases of their previous respective OS versions, these two are much better x.0 releases.  That's what I was trying to get at.


    OS X 10.0 was solid.  There was a problem with MS Office that no other application seemed to share, and took updates from Microsoft as well as Apple changed something (don't know the in's and out's to see if it was a bug or just whether certain interfaces were being used in inappropriate ways and Apple thought it would be best just to fix them anyway).  The funny thing is that the issues run into were apparently reported to Microsoft well before the operating system released -- but they did not feel it important to actually investigate until the sh*t hit the fan.

     

    There are also some incompatibilities because of the fact that the operating system was being hardened against malicious attackers - which is a good thing.  Some of the drivers thus were no longer able to work if they were not conforming.... Some of the device manufactures decided that they also would not upgrade their drivers or at least not in a timely manner.  

     

    First rule should be never upgrade your operating system if you actually need it from day one unless you have thoroughly tested all your apps first and can fall back....  just because an operating system is solid, does not mean all your apps will continue to work without being upgraded.  Things that could be used but slated to deprecated for 3 versions - eventually get removed.... and many development shops really don't do things in a timely manner since they have other priorities (many poorly run development shops).  There was a 3 month beta at least - more than enough time to make sure everything works with the new release and yet there are always problems (this is an issue with both Windows and "OS X" application developers - it even happens in enterprise application).  

  • Reply 244 of 399
    Originally Posted by Paul94544 View Post

    All a Chrome book can do is run a browser, which basically means it can't do much of anything




    Can a Chromebook run the stuff on iCloud.com? If so, that’s a selling point for Google.

  • Reply 245 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    canukstorm wrote: »
    "Considering the tablet portion of the Surface Book only gets 2-4 hours battery life what's the point?"

    That's just it. If you click on the links to the two WIRED articles that were posted, even the Surface design team doesn't think of the detached screen as a full tablet. it's a "clipboard",  only there for specific purposes.  It'll be interesting to see a year from now, how the market takes to this device.

    I'd love to know what those specific purposes are. I still think something like an iPad will be more suited ad a mobile device. Especially once Apple brings Apple Pencil to the smaller iPad. You almost have to wonder if Microsoft felt compelled to create a 2-in-1 device because Intel is pushing them so hard. Or did they do it just for the sake of differentiation with Apple. To me it seems like an over engineered product. I suspect most owners will use it like a traditional laptop and hardly ever remove the screen,
  • Reply 246 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     



    Can a Chromebook run the stuff on iCloud.com? If so, that’s a selling point for Google.


    I have Chrome browser on my PC and I run the stuff on iCloud.com just fine.

  • Reply 247 of 399
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    I'd love to know what those specific purposes are. I still think something like an iPad will be more suited ad a mobile device. Especially once Apple brings Apple Pencil to the smaller iPad. You almost have to wonder if Microsoft felt compelled to create a 2-in-1 device because Intel is pushing them so hard. Or did they do it just for the sake of differentiation with Apple. To me it seems like an over engineered product. I suspect most owners will use it like a traditional laptop and hardly ever remove the screen,

     

    "I'd love to know what those specific purposes are."

     

    If you see my previous posts (#223 & #226), I quote some excerpts from the article regarding this. It' not a whole lot but it gives you a general idea.

     

    "You almost have to wonder if Microsoft felt compelled to create a 2-in-1 device because Intel is pushing them so hard. "

     

    I read about something related to that right here;

     

    http://semiaccurate.com/2015/10/22/microsoft-intel-lenovo-dell-hp-cmos-think-idiot/

  • Reply 248 of 399
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    danvm wrote: »
    1)  You mention something about the weigh of the SB tablet, and how you felt it heavy to hold.  Do you know that you will have the same weight experience with the iPad Pro since both weight nearly the same? (1.6lbs vs 1.57lbs). 

    2)  About universal apps, yes they need to do a lot of work .  Still, I love how with a docking station I can replace my notebook / desktop and use it with my 23" monitor and keyboard / mouse and access all my applications.  And when I'm on the road, I can use Office Mobile, that is touch optimized and supports the stylus.  That's another reason I went with the SP4 over a new Mac and iPad. 
    Regarding the OneNote problem, I read demo units were pre production models.  Maybe the firmware and drivers update that was released yesterday fix all of that. 

    3) I don't see any problem with the UI.  It's different fom iOS and OS X, but not better or worst.  I love how it changes from desktop IU to touch UI when you remove the keyboard.
    My experience was the opposite.  In my case, I'm considering the Surface Pro 4 instead of a new Mac.  I love the stylus for OneNote and the screen looks far better than the MBA and even the Macbook. Plus the docking station is a great addition.  For me, it's the total package. 

    I think the issue with point 1) is related to the aspect ratio. The Surface tablets are all 3:2 which makes landscape a more comfortable orientation. I agree with that criticism. While 3:2 is not as bad as 16:9 or 16:10 it is still a bit strange using the Surface tablets in portrait mode. This is one very nice property of the iPad. 4:3 just seems, to me, to be a better geometrical shape for a tablet ( and even a phone. The switch to widescreen for the iPhone and iPod touch was disappointing. Mind you, the results there were not as critical given the way people use those devices. I still preferred 4:3 though.).

    I partially agree with your point 3). The Surface Pro 4 is very nice. I think they still need less power and more battery life. Also, I never could get over the very slight lag and offset of the Surface Pro 3 stylus. It just was not as good as a pen. Mind you, I don't know how well the iPad Pro's Pencil will be in that regard. The screen of the Surface Pro 4 is much nicer than that of the MA which hasn't changed in years. Of course the battery life of the MA is almost twice that of the Surface Pro 4 and the MacBook.
  • Reply 249 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pmcd View Post





    I think the issue with point 1) is related to the aspect ratio. The Surface tablets are all 3:2 which makes landscape a more comfortable orientation. I agree with that criticism. While 3:2 is not as bad as 16:9 or 16:10 it is still a bit strange using the Surface tablets in portrait mode. This is one very nice property of the iPad. 4:3 just seems, to me, to be a better geometrical shape for a tablet ( and even a phone. The switch to widescreen for the iPhone and iPod touch was disappointing. Mind you, the results there were not as critical given the way people use those devices. I still preferred 4:3 though.).



    I partially agree with your point 3). The Surface Pro 4 is very nice. I think they still need less power and more battery life. Also, I never could get over the very slight lag and offset of the Surface Pro 3 stylus. It just was not as good as a pen. Mind you, I don't know how well the iPad Pro's Pencil will be in that regard. The screen of the Surface Pro 4 is much nicer than that of the MA which hasn't changed in years. Of course the battery life of the MA is almost twice that of the Surface Pro 4 and the MacBook.

     

    "4:3 just seems, to me, to be a better geometrical shape for a tablet "

     

    Completely agree.

  • Reply 250 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by enature View Post

     

    It appears you confuse an illustration of Apple's weakness (such as the "toaster/refrigerator" case) with the actual reasons Apple is on its downward path. This thread, however, is not about those reasons. And to keep it short I only focused on illustrations relevant to the thread.

    But another example of how far Apple fell behind the innovation curve is Cook's very late attempt to catch up with Samsung on the phablet market. Back in 2012 it was clear as day that larger screens were in, yet Cook dragged Apple's feet for over 2 years before eventually bringing 4.7" and 5.5" screens to the iPhone. Again, this is just an illustration but not the reason Apple will fall.




    How much did Samsung earn, compared to Apple, during the two year exclusivity period where it was selling larger phones?

     

    Less.

     

    How much more could Apple have earned selling larger iPhones between 2012 and 2014, if it had to use Samsung's lower quality displays and swallow more expensive component costs, deliver shorter battery life spans and avoid other opportunity costs the way Samsung did? 

     

    Not much

     

    Apple's decision under Tim Cook's direction to build iPhone 5 models for two years kept it the most profitable phone maker on earth. The company's move to larger iPhone 6 models at the end of 2014 enabled it to eviscerate any slight market segment advantage Samsung had. I think your retroactively imagined problem doesn't hold much water.

     

    Between around 2010 and 2012, Apple was significantly out-featured by most Android devices in the area of 4G LTE support. That's a major capability that iPhones lacked, yet the moment Apple added 4G support to its iPhones, it became the world leader in 4G phones, too.

     

    So whether you want to retroactively indict Apple for failing to be first in 2010 or 2012, the problem is you have a victimless crime. More interestingly: what huge advantage will Android vendors invent in order to stay relevant in the current mainstream market for premium smartphones? And how long can they expect to maintain any lead?

     

    I don't see any advantage Android vendors can invent. I just smell acrid smoke, like smoldering plastic. Like Google is going to follow Microsoft and give up on its third rate copy of Apple's platform and double down instead on software and cloud services. Time will tell.  

  • Reply 251 of 399
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DanVM View Post

     



    http://www.zdnet.com/article/os-x-10-11-el-capitan-bugs-bugs-and-more-bugs/

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/ios-9-bugs-are-making-me-eye-android/

     

    In the iOS case, 9.1 fixed what 9.0 broke.

     

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/ios-9-1-a-much-needed-performance-and-stability-update/

     

    The most recent one is the bug that affected Office 2016.  Windows 10 has it's issues, same and Linux, but I don't see Apple being better, even though they have the benefit of controlling the whole device, from hardware to OS.  




    You linked to a series of troll bait articles from master apple foeboy Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Might as well look for financial insight from IBD.

  • Reply 252 of 399

    You linked to a series of troll bait articles from master apple foeboy Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Might as well look for financial insight from IBD.
    Irritable Bowel Disease?
  • Reply 253 of 399

    How much did Samsung earn, compared to Apple, during the two year exclusivity period where it was selling larger phones?

    Less.

    How much more could Apple have earned selling larger iPhones between 2012 and 2014, if it had to use Samsung's lower quality displays and swallow more expensive component costs, deliver shorter battery life spans and avoid other opportunity costs the way Samsung did? 

    Not much

    Apple's decision under Tim Cook's direction to build iPhone 5 models for two years kept it the most profitable phone maker on earth. The company's move to larger iPhone 6 models at the end of 2014 enabled it to eviscerate any slight market segment advantage Samsung had. I think your retroactively imagined problem doesn't hold much water.

    Between around 2010 and 2012, Apple was significantly out-featured by most Android devices in the area of 4G LTE support. That's a major capability that iPhones lacked, yet the moment Apple added 4G support to its iPhones, it became the world leader in 4G phones, too.

    So whether you want to retroactively indict Apple for failing to be first in 2010 or 2012, the problem is you have a victimless crime. More interestingly: what huge advantage will Android vendors invent in order to stay relevant in the current mainstream market for premium smartphones? And how long can they expect to maintain any lead?

    I don't see any advantage Android vendors can invent. I just smell acrid smoke, like smoldering plastic. Like Google is going to follow Microsoft and give up on its third rate copy of Apple's platform and double down instead on software and cloud services. Time will tell.  
    I'd rather Apple take the time to work out features and issues in devices and software than rush to fill out some bullet-point spec sheets the tech press aeems to fawn all over..
  • Reply 254 of 399
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CanukStorm View Post

     

    Definitely an enjoyable read.  The two parts that stand out most, to me;

     

    "Imagine a device that is like the Surface Pro in reverse: It’s mostly laptop, maybe exclusively so for some people, but there are tablet-like features when you want them. That was the that image formed in Panay’s head early on. It wouldn’t be a tablet, though—that part was important. Panay took to calling it a “clipboard” instead, something you grab when you need it for a specific purpose. Maybe you’re an architect, showing blueprints to a client. Maybe you’re a doctor carrying charts. Maybe you’re showing off new logo designs. Maybe you just want to read in bed. It would do those things, and well, but not at the expense of being a laptop."

     

    "The Surface Book is on sale today. Pre-orders have been huge—Panay says they’re selling laptops faster than they can make them."


     

    So, a decent overbuilt laptop with a pretty crappy tablet, Why not just buy a Mac Laptop instead and an air 2 (which would be the same weight and size as this and have a much better device for each functions). The price wouldn't be far off either. So, what's the point of this thing?

  • Reply 255 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by foggyhill View Post

     

     

    So, a decent overbuilt laptop with a pretty crappy tablet, Why not just buy a Mac Laptop instead and an air 2 (which would be the same weight and size as this and have a much better device for each functions). The price wouldn't be far off either. So, what's the point of this thing?


    The Surface Book's detachable screen is a gimmick - similar to the old fold back ones, or the swivel ones both of which disappeared.... since most people that bought a laptop actually just wanted a quality laptop.   After first buying the Surface Book -- my guess is the vast majority will never actually detach the screen after the first week.... except for maybe when they show that it can be done to friends.   They have compromised the compactness of the laptop for a feature that will rarely ever be used.  Detaching the screen and you will run out of battery in a matter of a few hours.... not good.  Not to mention most applications won't really be written for it as a "tablet" (which I gather Microsoft is calling something else since it would never live up to other tablets).   Having a detachable screen is not a bad thing, the compromises that were made just to say they had a detachable screen are.  The compromises (for the "ultimate laptop") are: compactness, price and the lack of thunderbolt expansion.  

     

    Trying to make everything do every use case only serves in creating products that compromise on things that actually matter.  To often they lose focus by designing things by committee where everything gets thrown in without trying to figure out the use cases that the machine is trying to fill.

  • Reply 256 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    foggyhill wrote: »
    So, a decent overbuilt laptop with a pretty crappy tablet, Why not just buy a Mac Laptop instead and an air 2 (which would be the same weight and size as this and have a much better device for each functions). The price wouldn't be far off either.So, what's the point of this thing??

    To impress the tech press, get positive PR and create the 'only Microsoft can challenge Apple in hardware' meme. I think the device is clearly over engineered but if it was just a really nice laptop would there be puff pieces from Wired and The Verge about it? I doubt it. This is what I love about Apple. Sure their employees in the company that are manufacturing and materials geeks. You can see why chemistry was Jony Ive's favorite subject in school. But I never get the sense that an Apple product is over designed/engineered to impress the media. The unibody wasn't about impressing the tech press, it was about changing the way laptops and practically all of Apple's hardware products were made. I don't think Surface Book is going to become the model for how laptops are made in the future.
  • Reply 257 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    bkkcanuck wrote: »
    The Surface Book's detachable screen is a gimmick - similar to the old fold back ones, or the swivel ones both of which disappeared.... since most people that bought a laptop actually just wanted a quality laptop.   After first buying the Surface Book -- my guess is the vast majority will never actually detach the screen after the first week.... except for maybe when they show that it can be done to friends.   They have compromised the compactness of the laptop for a feature that will rarely ever be used.  Detaching the screen and you will run out of battery in a matter of a few hours.... not good.  Not to mention most applications won't really be written for it as a "tablet" (which I gather Microsoft is calling something else since it would never live up to other tablets).   Having a detachable screen is not a bad thing, the compromises that were made just to say they had a detachable screen are.  The compromises (for the "ultimate laptop") are: compactness, price and the lack of thunderbolt expansion.  

    Trying to make everything do every use case only serves in creating products that compromise on things that actually matter.  To often they lose focus by designing things by committee where everything gets thrown in without trying to figure out the use cases that the machine is trying to fill.

    Microsoft wanted us to believe the Surface was the ultimate no-compromises device. A laptop when you need it, tablet when you want it. Well if that's the case what's the point of Surface Book? To me Surface Book is admitting that Surface isn't the no-compromises device Microsoft said it was. Yet the Surface Book has its own set of compromises in order to support a detachable screen that most people will never use. So it's not really the ultimate device either.
  • Reply 258 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    Microsoft wanted us to believe the Surface was the ultimate no-compromises device. A laptop when you need it, tablet when you want it. Well if that's the case what's the point of Surface Book? To me Surface Book is admitting that Surface isn't the no-compromises device Microsoft said it was. Yet the Surface Book has its own set of compromises in order to support a detachable screen that most people will never use. So it's not really the ultimate device either.



    I would go one step further and suggest that the Surface Pro itself is still nothing more than a laptop, so MS has now two very similar laptops, one where the keyboard is the detachable feature and the other where the screen is the detachable element.  They've clearly leapt in front of Apple with their groundbreaking new laptops and out of the box thinking.

  • Reply 259 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post



    Microsoft wanted us to believe the Surface was the ultimate no-compromises device. A laptop when you need it, tablet when you want it. Well if that's the case what's the point of Surface Book? To me Surface Book is admitting that Surface isn't the no-compromises device Microsoft said it was. Yet the Surface Book has its own set of compromises in order to support a detachable screen that most people will never use. So it's not really the ultimate device either.

    The website with these new devices perfectly illustrates the non-sense of their strategy. On the left side of the screen is the Surface Pro 4 with the tagline, "The tablet that can replace your laptop." Next to it is the Surface Book with the tagline, "The ultimate laptop." How does putting these two devices next to each other with those taglines make any sense? It's like two different divisions competed to come up with what they thought would be the best new product to launch and they didn't consult each other and no one questioned either of them and they decided to launch both of them together without even applying any logic whatsoever. So, in the end they decided to go with a unified strategy which explains it all:

     

    (Microsoft's Surface strategy)

     

    It all amounts to a flurry of activity in a dead or dying industry giving the Windows community something to ogle and say, "something new *not* from Apple, look!" and they all go, "ooooh, aaaaah, pretty!"

     

    But what's best are all the double standards. "Apple is all form over function," they say, and yet Microsoft is copying Apple (deliberately - they don't even try and hide it, they now claim this as a good thing). "Whatever Apple makes, sheeple buy." - what a bunch of hypocrites rushing to pre-order these devices. "The Apple tax" - what about the price of these devices, they are far from being cheap!

     

    What really gets to me, though, are the bugs in these devices that are given a big pass - the apologists say, "they're the demo units" but knowing Microsoft, it's nothing to do with demo units, it's typical Microsoft and Windows functionality, or quasi-functionality - talk about form over function, or perhaps better stated, it's function under form.

  • Reply 260 of 399
    Quote:



    Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post

     



    I would go one step further and suggest that the Surface Pro itself is still nothing more than a laptop, so MS has now two very similar laptops, one where the keyboard is the detachable feature and the other where the screen is the detachable element.  They've clearly leapt in front of Apple with their groundbreaking new laptops and out of the box thinking.


    Apple's meme is "Think Differently". 

    Microsoft's is "Same, same but different".

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