Futuremark analysis debunks rumor that Apple slows older iPhones down on purpose with iOS ...

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  • Reply 81 of 123
    nhtnht Posts: 4,214member
    Soli said:
    It's unfortunate that so much time and effort has to be spent on such a ridiculous premise. If Apple was looking to hamstring older devices to push people to update to the newest models they would simply not even waste time making a new OS work with older devices. Frankly I'm surprised Apple even goes out of their way to support older devices in SW as long as they do when there competitors don't/can't.
    Maybe they should stop supporting anything older than the last generation device. 

    If you have owned multiple iPhones, then you should know that after 2 years, your device will slow down considerably if you update the OS. 
    Newer operating systems will use more resources. Plus, if your battery was on the brink of being consumed, then it's going to kill your already dying battery. 

    If you don't want your device to slow down, don't update the OS or the 3rd party apps that you use. If you are worried about security, then turn off cellular data while you are away from a known good wifi connection. Although that's a tinfoil hat move. 

    Sorry if it's a bitter pill, but your $900 phone only has a 2 year lifespan realistically.  That's including non Apple devices. 


    Bullshit. My iPhone 5 still works fine as does my wife's 6.
    watto_cobraStrangeDays
  • Reply 82 of 123
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,229administrator
    My own phone (6), was very noticeably slower and less capable over the 3 years that I used it. So much of this can be chalked up to declining battery performance and the wearing out of NAND flash cells over time. A new 6 running the latest OS would probably be fine.
    Battery, maybe. NAND, no. It's over-provisioned, and the life of the NAND in an iPhone greatly exceeds three years of even heavy use.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 83 of 123
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 1,830member
    sog35 said:
    My 6 Plus is lagging and slow since I upgraded to iOS 11
    My iPhone 6 is also a bit slower overall. It has some hiccups where it takes a bit at times.  Overall though it's not bad. So much so, that I'm going to hold out and not get the iPhone X like I had planned.

    My iPhone 4, that last iOS upgrade for going into my 4th year really killed the performance of the phone where at times I wanted to throw it against the wall and break it, giving me a excuse to upgrade.  But I held out, upgraded to the iPhone 6.  

    Going into the 4th year with this iPhone 6 is a whole lot better.  So I'll wait and get the second generation of the iPhone X whatever it's called next year instead.

    The idiots thinking Apple is doing this purpose are idiots.  IOS gets larger and more complex over the years, along with all the apps along with it.   This happens with every OS over the years.  Even with Android, though OS upgrades on Android is limited to one, maybe 2 make upgrades before there no support.  Google only recommends 18 months.  That's not even a demand.  Look at the iPhone 5s, a 4 year old phone now, going on 5 years still getting support.  You're going to get a speed hit, sure but look how old the phone is.  If adore was forcing prior to upgrade, wouldn't they limit upgrades to 2 years and that's it?.  Instead of letting you continue to use your own phone? 

    watto_cobraStrangeDays
  • Reply 84 of 123
    MendoMendo Posts: 3member
    Mendo said:
    Tl;dr: It's not CPU/GPU power, it's a fixed RAM size, aging flash memory and increased memory footprints of iOS and apps that cause a perceived slowdown. And that simply can't be helped.

    ############

    This site regularly reports about hardware in a professional manner. So why in the world would an editor think that raw CPU/GPU power would matter? Of course changes to APIs happen over time that may impact the processing power directly in a minuscule way, but that is not where system slowdowns come from.

    Performance issues are usually pretty much entirely memory-based. Flash memory is known to degrade over time, even with internal load balancing, so loading times naturally increase over time (far more noticeable than any change to raw CPU/GPU power could), but the real killer is memory management. The iPhone 6 plus has 1GB of RAM, compared to the 3GB of the 8 plus. iOS has grown steadily, and OS features always get priority when it comes to multitasking, so less availability memory for other apps. Meanwhile, apps also grow in size and functionality and need more memory, causing other running apps to get paged into the (constantly slowing) flash memory. So switching apps then causes a) running apps to be slowly written to flash, and b) the requested, hibernated app to be loaded from flash.

    When I got my iPhone 6 plus almost 3 years ago, 1GB of RAM could comfortably hold several apps without having to swap any of it into a flash page file. These days my iPhone is often even struggling with loading on-demand parts of a running app into memory, and often even switching between two apps would cause either of them to reload, especially when it's memory hogs such a Facebook, Twitter and Chrome. Just switching between this holy trifecta can cause slowdowns that are less than pretty.

    So what I, as a user, would expect from Apple and app developers, is better memory management for older phones, but even that can only do so much given that every app is constantly in a race of offering more and better looking functionality than its competitors, continuously bloating it's memory footprint up, and iOS obviously need to add features as well that can't be loaded on demand.

    So what I'd really like to see is memory benchmarks and multitasking checks. Xcode for instance allows to at least see RAM usage. But for real comparisons, that would require old hardware with old iOS versions and old app versions to compare, and those are hard to come by.
    Nope, that's not the case here. The iPhone's storage is over-provisioned, and there is no noticeable slowdown with time -- and even with heavy use over three years, you won't approach the limits of the read/write cycle.
    https://imgur.com/a/fGsym (AnTuTu results)

    Losses between 30-50% in general data i/o performance in comparison with a factory new model aren't exactly small.

    Even with internal garbage collection, flash memory degrades. Overprovisioning can only do so much, and degradation is also highly depending on the base amount of memory available.

    In combination with the increased memory appetite of apps across the board, that very well explains some of the performance issues quite a few users are seeing.
  • Reply 85 of 123
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 1,302member
    Mendo said:
    Mendo said:
    Tl;dr: It's not CPU/GPU power, it's a fixed RAM size, aging flash memory and increased memory footprints of iOS and apps that cause a perceived slowdown. And that simply can't be helped.

    ############

    This site regularly reports about hardware in a professional manner. So why in the world would an editor think that raw CPU/GPU power would matter? Of course changes to APIs happen over time that may impact the processing power directly in a minuscule way, but that is not where system slowdowns come from.

    Performance issues are usually pretty much entirely memory-based. Flash memory is known to degrade over time, even with internal load balancing, so loading times naturally increase over time (far more noticeable than any change to raw CPU/GPU power could), but the real killer is memory management. The iPhone 6 plus has 1GB of RAM, compared to the 3GB of the 8 plus. iOS has grown steadily, and OS features always get priority when it comes to multitasking, so less availability memory for other apps. Meanwhile, apps also grow in size and functionality and need more memory, causing other running apps to get paged into the (constantly slowing) flash memory. So switching apps then causes a) running apps to be slowly written to flash, and b) the requested, hibernated app to be loaded from flash.

    When I got my iPhone 6 plus almost 3 years ago, 1GB of RAM could comfortably hold several apps without having to swap any of it into a flash page file. These days my iPhone is often even struggling with loading on-demand parts of a running app into memory, and often even switching between two apps would cause either of them to reload, especially when it's memory hogs such a Facebook, Twitter and Chrome. Just switching between this holy trifecta can cause slowdowns that are less than pretty.

    So what I, as a user, would expect from Apple and app developers, is better memory management for older phones, but even that can only do so much given that every app is constantly in a race of offering more and better looking functionality than its competitors, continuously bloating it's memory footprint up, and iOS obviously need to add features as well that can't be loaded on demand.

    So what I'd really like to see is memory benchmarks and multitasking checks. Xcode for instance allows to at least see RAM usage. But for real comparisons, that would require old hardware with old iOS versions and old app versions to compare, and those are hard to come by.
    Nope, that's not the case here. The iPhone's storage is over-provisioned, and there is no noticeable slowdown with time -- and even with heavy use over three years, you won't approach the limits of the read/write cycle.
    https://imgur.com/a/fGsym (AnTuTu results)

    Losses between 30-50% in general data i/o performance in comparison with a factory new model aren't exactly small.

    Even with internal garbage collection, flash memory degrades. Overprovisioning can only do so much, and degradation is also highly depending on the base amount of memory available.

    In combination with the increased memory appetite of apps across the board, that very well explains some of the performance issues quite a few users are seeing.
    What you write about degradation of flash memory doesn't make sense. iOS has no swap file. The contents of RAM are not purged to the flash.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 86 of 123
    MendoMendo Posts: 3member
    Mendo said:
    Mendo said:
    Tl;dr: It's not CPU/GPU power, it's a fixed RAM size, aging flash memory and increased memory footprints of iOS and apps that cause a perceived slowdown. And that simply can't be helped.

    ############

    This site regularly reports about hardware in a professional manner. So why in the world would an editor think that raw CPU/GPU power would matter? Of course changes to APIs happen over time that may impact the processing power directly in a minuscule way, but that is not where system slowdowns come from.

    Performance issues are usually pretty much entirely memory-based. Flash memory is known to degrade over time, even with internal load balancing, so loading times naturally increase over time (far more noticeable than any change to raw CPU/GPU power could), but the real killer is memory management. The iPhone 6 plus has 1GB of RAM, compared to the 3GB of the 8 plus. iOS has grown steadily, and OS features always get priority when it comes to multitasking, so less availability memory for other apps. Meanwhile, apps also grow in size and functionality and need more memory, causing other running apps to get paged into the (constantly slowing) flash memory. So switching apps then causes a) running apps to be slowly written to flash, and b) the requested, hibernated app to be loaded from flash.

    When I got my iPhone 6 plus almost 3 years ago, 1GB of RAM could comfortably hold several apps without having to swap any of it into a flash page file. These days my iPhone is often even struggling with loading on-demand parts of a running app into memory, and often even switching between two apps would cause either of them to reload, especially when it's memory hogs such a Facebook, Twitter and Chrome. Just switching between this holy trifecta can cause slowdowns that are less than pretty.

    So what I, as a user, would expect from Apple and app developers, is better memory management for older phones, but even that can only do so much given that every app is constantly in a race of offering more and better looking functionality than its competitors, continuously bloating it's memory footprint up, and iOS obviously need to add features as well that can't be loaded on demand.

    So what I'd really like to see is memory benchmarks and multitasking checks. Xcode for instance allows to at least see RAM usage. But for real comparisons, that would require old hardware with old iOS versions and old app versions to compare, and those are hard to come by.
    Nope, that's not the case here. The iPhone's storage is over-provisioned, and there is no noticeable slowdown with time -- and even with heavy use over three years, you won't approach the limits of the read/write cycle.
    https://imgur.com/a/fGsym (AnTuTu results)

    Losses between 30-50% in general data i/o performance in comparison with a factory new model aren't exactly small.

    Even with internal garbage collection, flash memory degrades. Overprovisioning can only do so much, and degradation is also highly depending on the base amount of memory available.

    In combination with the increased memory appetite of apps across the board, that very well explains some of the performance issues quite a few users are seeing.
    What you write about degradation of flash memory doesn't make sense. iOS has no swap file. The contents of RAM are not purged to the flash.
    I’m gladly accepting alternative explanations for the performance drop that's visible in the benchmark. It should at least be fine to assume that apps can write a current state into their app data before purged from memory. Then there are serial offenders like the Spotify app that have already caused issues on desktop PCs/SSDs with their unorthodox caching behavior (now fixed there).

    Whatever is causing it - again, up to 50% drop in flash i/o performance isn't small on any kind of scale.
    propod
  • Reply 87 of 123
    ivanh said:
    It’s not perception!  

    My iPhone 6 Plus slowed down, not on the first day, but the second, then going faster on the third, and slowed down again in the next few days.
    DO you FEEL it going faster or slower, or did you measure that somehow? These type of "measurements" are really annoying. How do you know it wasn't you having different perception of speed on different days due to fatigue and other human-related factors?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 88 of 123
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,229administrator
    Mendo said:
    Mendo said:
    Tl;dr: It's not CPU/GPU power, it's a fixed RAM size, aging flash memory and increased memory footprints of iOS and apps that cause a perceived slowdown. And that simply can't be helped.

    ############

    This site regularly reports about hardware in a professional manner. So why in the world would an editor think that raw CPU/GPU power would matter? Of course changes to APIs happen over time that may impact the processing power directly in a minuscule way, but that is not where system slowdowns come from.

    Performance issues are usually pretty much entirely memory-based. Flash memory is known to degrade over time, even with internal load balancing, so loading times naturally increase over time (far more noticeable than any change to raw CPU/GPU power could), but the real killer is memory management. The iPhone 6 plus has 1GB of RAM, compared to the 3GB of the 8 plus. iOS has grown steadily, and OS features always get priority when it comes to multitasking, so less availability memory for other apps. Meanwhile, apps also grow in size and functionality and need more memory, causing other running apps to get paged into the (constantly slowing) flash memory. So switching apps then causes a) running apps to be slowly written to flash, and b) the requested, hibernated app to be loaded from flash.

    When I got my iPhone 6 plus almost 3 years ago, 1GB of RAM could comfortably hold several apps without having to swap any of it into a flash page file. These days my iPhone is often even struggling with loading on-demand parts of a running app into memory, and often even switching between two apps would cause either of them to reload, especially when it's memory hogs such a Facebook, Twitter and Chrome. Just switching between this holy trifecta can cause slowdowns that are less than pretty.

    So what I, as a user, would expect from Apple and app developers, is better memory management for older phones, but even that can only do so much given that every app is constantly in a race of offering more and better looking functionality than its competitors, continuously bloating it's memory footprint up, and iOS obviously need to add features as well that can't be loaded on demand.

    So what I'd really like to see is memory benchmarks and multitasking checks. Xcode for instance allows to at least see RAM usage. But for real comparisons, that would require old hardware with old iOS versions and old app versions to compare, and those are hard to come by.
    Nope, that's not the case here. The iPhone's storage is over-provisioned, and there is no noticeable slowdown with time -- and even with heavy use over three years, you won't approach the limits of the read/write cycle.
    https://imgur.com/a/fGsym (AnTuTu results)

    Losses between 30-50% in general data i/o performance in comparison with a factory new model aren't exactly small.

    Even with internal garbage collection, flash memory degrades. Overprovisioning can only do so much, and degradation is also highly depending on the base amount of memory available.

    In combination with the increased memory appetite of apps across the board, that very well explains some of the performance issues quite a few users are seeing.
    One data point isn't a trend, and I presume the higher numbers aren't what your phone was at launch. Your numbers are consistent with the 16GB iPhone 6 Plus I/O stats. The better are consistent with the 32 and 64.

    Also, when was the last time you did a clean install of the OS instead of migrating from version to version? Either of the two are more likely than flash wear which generally isn't a factor until you're looking at over a petabyte of data written and you'd have to be slamming your phone pretty hard to get that, harder than any user I've ever seen.

    And, back to the original point. There is no conspiracy at Apple to slow down the hardware. If this is flash wear, and I still am sure that it is not, it's certainly not Apple forcing it in code.
    edited October 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 89 of 123
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,402member
    Soli said:
    It's unfortunate that so much time and effort has to be spent on such a ridiculous premise. If Apple was looking to hamstring older devices to push people to update to the newest models they would simply not even waste time making a new OS work with older devices. Frankly I'm surprised Apple even goes out of their way to support older devices in SW as long as they do when there competitors don't/can't.
    Maybe they should stop supporting anything older than the last generation device. 

    If you have owned multiple iPhones, then you should know that after 2 years, your device will slow down considerably if you update the OS. 
    Newer operating systems will use more resources. Plus, if your battery was on the brink of being consumed, then it's going to kill your already dying battery. 

    If you don't want your device to slow down, don't update the OS or the 3rd party apps that you use. If you are worried about security, then turn off cellular data while you are away from a known good wifi connection. Although that's a tinfoil hat move. 

    Sorry if it's a bitter pill, but your $900 phone only has a 2 year lifespan realistically.  That's including non Apple devices. 
    Hmm then what should I tell my mother whom is using my old 5S — that her phone no longer exists because some guy said so on a forum?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 90 of 123
    AppleInsiders Pro-Apple rethoric (“debunking myths”) isn’t correct. Many people are clearly experiencing slow downs and this Futuremark test doesn’t prove anything, because it’s testing the wrong KPI’s.

    Instead of regular CPU and GPU tests, they should have been focusing on small temporary spikes and lags, slowing the phone down just for half a second. Things like typing and slight delays, opening and switching apps, testing impact of location services, etc.
    It’s quite a complex test actually, but these kinds of mini-lags are the ones that make people thing their phone is ‘too slow’. It’s more about the perception of speed than it is about raw benchmark numbers.

    iOS11 for sure runs much slower on my iPhone 6s, while it runs just fine on my iPad Pro (in fact it ‘feels’ even faster compared to iOS10).

    And lastly whether Apple does this deliberately or not is a different subject altogether.
    propod
  • Reply 91 of 123

    Okay, look, here's the reality. The public perception is that Apple has somehow crippled the hardware with an OS update, forcing users to buy new phones.

    Guess what. Newer software means heavier software demands. The phones are literally the same speed as the day they were bought and these metrics are the proof. The difference is the load placed on them by the software.

    There is no plot or conspiracy. There is no shadowy cabal demanding that code get bloated to force users to buy a new phone. There is no Cook and Ive plot to turn down the processor and GPU speed. That's insane to even speculate, but yet, here we are. Planned obsolescence as a conspiracy to force hardware sales isn't a thing.

    Do you want your phone to be the same as the day you took it out of the box? Never update your software. Problem solved.
    No, we must eternally whine because we are entitled to do so! We are not customers voting with our dollars, but rather prisoners, held hostage by the nefarious Apple corporate devil! Can't you see!?
    The forums are for whining, yes. There are no Apple Geniuses providing support here. You have to visit the Apple Store or contact Apple support if you want help with any technical issue. Now, if it's working, but a little pokey or choppy, that's still good feedback to Apple, because sometimes they improve the performance for older devices during the subsequent .2 or .3 releases. You have to let them know directly you want your specific symptom of slowness addressed. Always tell Apple directly.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 92 of 123
    ben20ben20 Posts: 119member
    I observed that serveral times - without changing the apps. In some cases, it was a pain to operate the device after an update. Skipping them now and buying new devices instead
  • Reply 93 of 123
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 1,302member
    AppleInsiders Pro-Apple rethoric (“debunking myths”) isn’t correct. Many people are clearly experiencing slow downs and this Futuremark test doesn’t prove anything, because it’s testing the wrong KPI’s.

    Instead of regular CPU and GPU tests, they should have been focusing on small temporary spikes and lags, slowing the phone down just for half a second. Things like typing and slight delays, opening and switching apps, testing impact of location services, etc.
    It’s quite a complex test actually, but these kinds of mini-lags are the ones that make people thing their phone is ‘too slow’. It’s more about the perception of speed than it is about raw benchmark numbers.
    Futuremark does not deny that. As I read in the article:
    "The firm does note that there are some factors that may make users perceive a loss of performance after updating the operating system. These include updates introducing new resource-intensive features, new apps developed for newer hardware not running as smoothly, and older apps failing to take advantage of optimizations in later iOS releases."
    SoliStrangeDays
  • Reply 94 of 123
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,227member
    AppleInsiders Pro-Apple rethoric (“debunking myths”) isn’t correct. Many people are clearly experiencing slow downs and this Futuremark test doesn’t prove anything, because it’s testing the wrong KPI’s.

    Instead of regular CPU and GPU tests, they should have been focusing on small temporary spikes and lags, slowing the phone down just for half a second. Things like typing and slight delays, opening and switching apps, testing impact of location services, etc.
    It’s quite a complex test actually, but these kinds of mini-lags are the ones that make people thing their phone is ‘too slow’. It’s more about the perception of speed than it is about raw benchmark numbers.

    iOS11 for sure runs much slower on my iPhone 6s, while it runs just fine on my iPad Pro (in fact it ‘feels’ even faster compared to iOS10).

    And lastly whether Apple does this deliberately or not is a different subject altogether.
    Their tests clearly show that Apple isn't making the HW run slower, which is one easy method to make the device more power efficient. What you believe is a device running slower is just more overhead for an app, which could be more features that have to be processed or less refined code for a brand new app that hasn't had the benefit of a year of point updates to fix bugs and make the new code more efficient, but the CPU and GPU are clearly not running slower.

    In your "deliberately or not is a different subject altogether" statement, what reason do you think Apple has to even support older devices so they can hamstring them with new features that may perform slightly slower? What does Apple gain for supporting 5 year old devices? Why not just limit it to, say, 3 years, which will save them a lot of time and money in supporting older devices and probably help get people to upgrade to newer devices with the latest feature sets?

    Now, you can argue that Apple is deliberately adding dummy code or adding x-nanoseconds of delay in execution, but I think that's a crazy notion to consider. What I think more likely the case is that they aren't putting their A-team on the newest devices or spending as much money and effort for the oldest supported devices with the lowest installed base so bugs are more easily overlooked, which is why on at least one occasion we saw the oldest supported device get unreasonably slow only to be resolved with a point update.

    Here's a video comparing the latest iOS 10 version to iOS 11 on various devices. As you can see in the apps being launched, there is no absolute winner between iOS 10 and iOS 11 in terms of app performance.


    watto_cobraStrangeDays
  • Reply 95 of 123
    Over time all devices run slower. My iPad 2 and my iPad Mini 2 both run considerably slower than they did and the upgrade when the last Apple TV box came out rendered my previous version box completely unusable.  The same applies to various MacBook Pros I’ve bought over the years.  This, along with new plugs and sockets makes these things expensive to maintain.  Having said that, my new TV only has HDMI so I now need switches, splitters and cables (over £100) just to use old equipment which works perfectly well.  
  • Reply 96 of 123
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,227member
    Having said that, my new TV only has HDMI so I now need switches, splitters and cables (over £100) just to use old equipment which works perfectly well.  
    What was wrong with your old TV? Why not get a new TV that offered legacy connections if keeping legacy peripherals were so important? What kind of switches, splitters and cables did you have to buy for your new TV?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 97 of 123
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,448member
    My own experience...iOS 10.3.3 on an iPad 4 and the screen stuttered doing anything.  I get fed up and did what I had never done before.  I got a good backup, wiped it, set it back up, and got everything configured.

    Guess what happened???  It ran super smooth and I gained about 5 gig of space.  If you have a device that has been through multiple iOS upgrades...back it up and restore.  It just may bring it back to life.
    edited October 2017 Solianton zuykov
  • Reply 98 of 123
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,402member
    icoco3 said:
    My own experience...iOS 10.3.3 on an iPad 4 and the screen stuttered doing anything.  I get fed up and did what I had never done before.  I got a good backup, wiped it, set it back up, and got everything configured.

    Guess what happened???  It ran super smooth and I gained about 5 gig of space.  If you have a device that has been through multiple iOS upgrades...back it up and restore.  It just may bring it back to life.
    Is doing a backup, erase-all, then restore considered a clean wipe? Can it be either an iCloud backup or local iTunes? I haven't done one so I'm really not sure.
  • Reply 99 of 123
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,227member
    icoco3 said:
    My own experience...iOS 10.3.3 on an iPad 4 and the screen stuttered doing anything.  I get fed up and did what I had never done before.  I got a good backup, wiped it, set it back up, and got everything configured.

    Guess what happened???  It ran super smooth and I gained about 5 gig of space.  If you have a device that has been through multiple iOS upgrades...back it up and restore.  It just may bring it back to life.
    Is doing a backup, erase-all, then restore considered a clean wipe? Can it be either an iCloud backup or local iTunes? I haven't done one so I'm really not sure.
    There's always the potential for a backup to re-introduce an issue you may have had, especially if we're talking about a user-specific corruption of something like a PLIST or a system-wide issue from apps like a VPN or system monitors, but as a general rule it's not a bad a second* step to rule out general issues that you can automate with a restore. 

    * The first step step if you can't pinpoint the issue would be to reinstall the OS over itself.
  • Reply 100 of 123
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,448member
    icoco3 said:
    My own experience...iOS 10.3.3 on an iPad 4 and the screen stuttered doing anything.  I get fed up and did what I had never done before.  I got a good backup, wiped it, set it back up, and got everything configured.

    Guess what happened???  It ran super smooth and I gained about 5 gig of space.  If you have a device that has been through multiple iOS upgrades...back it up and restore.  It just may bring it back to life.
    Is doing a backup, erase-all, then restore considered a clean wipe? Can it be either an iCloud backup or local iTunes? I haven't done one so I'm really not sure.
    I did a backup to iCloud then went in the settings and reset the phone.  Didn't want iOS 11 otherwise could have done a full restore and update to iOS 11.  Can't remember the procedure but you have to have it connected to your computer to do it.
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