The TextBlade keyboard is superb, but you'll have to be patient

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Comments

  • Reply 241 of 1615
    If you believe all your misrepresentations, you should take your refund.  
      I understand you would much prefer I simply take my money and go away after 4 years of relying on your falsehoods regarding the shipping status of the product I paid for.
    Since you say you’ll never get your shipment, there’s no reason for you to keep an order.
    That way you can continue your disparagement campaign, absolutely free of charge.
    I am acutely aware that you would prefer to silence me and all of your detractors, as you have done on your own forum. If you were an authoritarian political leader, all opposition would be exterminated at this point in your rule. Sadly for you, your 'fora' (lol) is not the only place where people have the opportunity to debate your unethical behavior. You wanted this Appleinsider article to promote your non-existent non-shipping and apparently non-functional product (everybody says it works but you say it does not work well enough). You invite review of a product you are unwilling to put in the hands of people who paid you 4 years ago, and then you whine and complain and deflect and insult when you are criticized. The way you operate as a manager/owner/CEO of a company is a joke, and I thank you for illustrating your tactics and behavior to a wider audience so they can make an informed decision about doing business with you.
    We’ve not responded to your fresh baiting, and increasingly extreme personal attacks.
    We’re keeping to the spirit of the posting rules here.  You’re not.
    I am not aware of having broken any posting rules here. A moderator admonished people to keep it civil and I am doing that. Calling a liar a liar is neither extreme nor uncivilized when it is a demonstrable fact. I have not crossed what I would consider to be the threshold of incivility by calling you any unprovable names such as an outright thief, yet, because you have not yet closed up shop and disappeared with all the money, though ultimately that is what I expect you will do. I stand by my above statements that your overall behavior does appear to be that of a criminal mindset, in that your sole purpose, despite statements that the company is not funded by orders, is to hang on to all of the money you have already collected for the past 4 years for an indefinite period of time while never shipping a product to your customers.

    If you return all of the money you collected for 4 years of worth of orders, I would have zero - repeat: zero - criticism of you. If you had marketed your product from the outset to 'investors', not 'customers', I would have zero criticism of you (and believe it or not I probably would have invested). Plenty of tech companies fail, as you have. Plenty of innovators find they have bitten off more than they can chew, as you have. That's life in tech and we all acknowledge such. But when you cross the line and take the money from customers, and keep it, while all along making claims of product readiness which are absolutely totally 100% provably false, for 4 years, you are going to be examined, and ridiculed, and criticized, and judged, as you rightfully should be. You are unethical. You are a liar.

    Let it be clear to all who have not followed this saga. This company and product were not a Kickstarter campaign or anything like it. It was a product advertised ready to ship - 4 years ago. They advertised. They promoted. They took orders and collected money. In 2015. It is now 2019, and nothing has shipped.

    Return the money or ship the product. I am repeating myself now and this is tiresome. This is why I know this will most likely and ultimately end in theft or a lawsuit, because this is the same nonsensical non-communication and defense of yourself that you have been engaging in for 4 years while the money remains in your pocket, and you will not change.
    edited April 2019 alexonline
  • Reply 242 of 1615
    Criticism of transparency by an anonymous poster - this speaks for itself.

    By contrast, many real customers posted here with their real names.

    Our company posts are always openly marked, and our staff has real names.
  • Reply 243 of 1615
    Really? Your parents named you 'WayTools_Support'? With the underscore? That's a very cute name for a baby. Maybe it will catch on now that Noah and Emma are getting long in the tooth. :wink: 

    More deflection and obfuscation. You are not addressing the only issues that matter. The customer money in your pocket, and the product you have not shipped, for 4 years.

    I cannot use my real name because I do not want my order forcibly cancelled by the authoritarian regime at Waytools. I believe just about every public critic of your operation is no longer in the order queue so they are not 'customers' but 'former customers'. 'Former customers' who lent you their money for months or years and received nothing in exchange but lies. I wish to retain my right to sue you if you make off with the money. 
    edited April 2019 ericpeetsalexonline
  • Reply 244 of 1615
    Bad actors are always hurt and offended when accused. Bad actors are always insolent and defensive when criticized. Bad actors always have a core throng of enthusiastic defenders who are profiting in the scam. Everything WayTools_Support says and does fits the profile of a bad actor, and only two things will demonstrate otherwise. Return the money or ship the product. Nothing else is relevant here.
    edited April 2019 alexonline
  • Reply 245 of 1615
    Not sure if it was clear before, so thought I’d re-state in either case. 

    No configuration is required of TextBlade out of the box. It’ll pair and work as a keyboard with whatever preset map. I don’t know if they are all shipped as QWERTY or if some have had their preferred map installed prior to shipment; all have physical QWERTY key legends. 

    That part that might trip you up here is what OS is set for each Jump slot. They might all default to iOS which means the Cursor Edit mode and Select mode may behave erratically. 
  • Reply 246 of 1615
    colinng said:
    So, the verbal violence exhibited by @Rolanbek, @ericpeets, @TextBladeDenied, @arkorott, this verbal violence is "why we can't have nice things." You are ruining it for all of us.
    For the record, not all those have been consistently a problem. I'm willing to cut anyone some slack if they show signs of rational discussion even if I disagree with what they are saying. @arkorott seems to be trying to be reasonable. I don't recall at the moment if that wasn't the case with his first post - when I see someone trying to have an honest discussion, I tend to not remember if it is a new thing for them unless there is a long history. As I've said earlier, even Rolanbek has been okay recently.

    I know some people do such positive things only occasionally and then go back to the bad stuff, but that's fine. I'll deal with that if it happens. If it doesn't, that's great.

    I could go back to some of the stuff from 2015, but I see no reason to as long as things are good now. But textbladedenied isn't doing anything but ranting and making stuff up instead of sticking to actual facts that he could legitimately complain about. Which only weakens his case.

  • Reply 247 of 1615
    If you believe all your misrepresentations, you should take your refund.  
     > I understand you would much prefer I simply take my money and go away after 4 years of relying on your falsehoods regarding the shipping status of the product I paid for.

    You do realize that getting a refund doesn't silence you here, right?

    Since you say you’ll never get your shipment, there’s no reason for you to keep an order.
    That way you can continue your disparagement campaign, absolutely free of charge.
    > I am acutely aware that you would prefer to silence me and all of your detractors, as you have done on your own forum.

    You do realize that getting a refits doesn't silence you here, right? WT simply pointed out that you wouldn't be losing your money (since you keep saying it won't ship), but you can still post free of charge right here just as you can with an order.

    I am not aware of having broken any posting rules here. A moderator admonished people to keep it civil and I am doing that. Calling a liar a liar is neither extreme nor uncivilized when it is a demonstrable fact.

    Except you've done no such thing. Repetition of an accusation does not make it a fact. Missing shipping estimates is not the same thing as lying. Lying requires intent.

    I stand by my above statements that your overall behavior does appear to be that of a criminal mindset, in that your sole purpose, despite statements that the company is not funded by orders, is to hang on to all of the money you have already collected for the past 4 years for an indefinite period of time while never shipping a product to your customers.

    Well, this is a good example. You could have just objected to the charging of the credit cards. Which, btw, I have done and, surprise, didn't get banned for it. But no, you have to claim it is a criminal mindset. Which, yeah, is a good reason to get you banned. And, yep, I already know you excuse: "But they are criminals and liars" - iow, repetition of a claim to "support" making the same claim.

    Return the money or ship the product. I am repeating myself now and this is tiresome.

    Well, I'm pretty sure I know how you can stop getting tired of repeating yourself.

  • Reply 248 of 1615
    I cannot use my real name because I do not want my order forcibly cancelled
     Okay. Fair enough. Too bad you can't leave it at that. For example:

    Bad actors are always hurt and offended when accused. Bad actors are always insolent and defensive when criticized. Bad actors always have a core throng of enthusiastic defenders
    1. You know who else gets offended when accused? Innocent people.

    2. You know who else gets defensive when criticized? Innocent people.

    3. Innocent people, at least if many people know them well, will also have a throng of people defending them.

    For general information to others, I suggest you pay attention to the argument TBD used because you will see the exact same thing many times in politics and discussion of social issues. One person will, instead of discussing the issue rationally, will declare the other person to be something very bad (Nazi, racist, sexist are currently very popular choices). When the person so labeled objects, the phrase, "It's the dog that gets hit that barks the loudest" or something like that. Their insinuation is that by merely objecting to a false accusation, that somehow proves you are guilty! It really is amazing. Also stupid and evil.

  • Reply 249 of 1615
    Money collected and residing in the Waytools bank. 4 years of lies about product readiness and ship dates. No product delivered. Your deflection and obfuscation of the core facts are readily apparent to any objective observer. Thank you for demonstrating the Waytools tactics all customers have endured since the beginning. It is illuminating to all.
    edited April 2019 alexonline
  • Reply 250 of 1615
    So this fellow, TextBladeDenied, has stated the reason for his order is to make a lawsuit.  It’s not to enjoy a nice keyboard.

    That would be the lawsuit for ‘keeping his money’ - which he knows he can take at anytime, with a few clicks.

    That would be the same money that he in fact refuses to take, and even hides his name to prevent us giving to him.  

    So, he sends money, to make an order, to sue to get it back.  Ok.

    Seems like a few clicks is quite a bit faster.



    In a court, he’ll have to disclose his real name, and explain to a judge why he refused a refund.

    A real customer doesn’t waste his day to do stuff like this.

    This numbing repetition, and illogical twisting of words and facts - it’s a job.  To discourage and disparage customers of something good. 

    The good thing that customers want us to steadfastly prepare and bring to their door.  

    Despite all the crazy antics of adversarial interests.

       


    colinng
  • Reply 251 of 1615
    dabigkahuna said:
    Their insinuation is that by merely objecting to a false accusation, that somehow proves you are guilty! It really is amazing. Also stupid and evil.
    Waytools has not objected to these indisputable facts: They collected money from (they claim) thousands of customers for a product that was declared ready to ship in 2015. The have not shipped that product. You can quibble about the definition of a 'lie' until you drop dead, but nobody aware of or involved in this debacle who is not a paid shill like Kahuna or Colin believes that Waytools has behaved transparently, or ethically, or truthfully. The most gracious assessment is that they are blatant liars who scammed customers into giving them money so they could attempt to develop a product which they have been unable to complete for 4 years. This is not a new trick. They simply could not get investors, so they scammed customers to fund development. They claim they do not need the customer money to continue this facade of finishing and releasing a functioning product, yet they keep the money and vigorously defend any assertion that they are unethical to hold the money without releasing the product. Kahuna gets very agitated whenever the money is mentioned, probably because he is living off it.

    It does not matter how many words you throw at facts, the actions of Waytools are apparent. 4 years of evidence assures us no one will never receive a working product from this company in exchange for money. Ignore them, and ignore the rants of their obnoxious spokespeople Kahuna and Colin.
    alexonline
  • Reply 252 of 1615
    We most definitely dispute what you’ve said above, and earlier.

    And we most definitely have dialed down our engagement of your serial misrepresentations. 
    gmadden
  • Reply 253 of 1615
    The most gracious assessment is that they are blatant liars who scammed customers into giving them money so they could attempt to develop a product which they have been unable to complete for 4 years. This is not a new trick. They simply could not get investors, so they scammed customers to fund development. They claim they do not need the customer money to continue this facade of finishing and releasing a functioning product, yet they keep the money and vigorously defend any assertion that they are unethical to hold the money without releasing the product. Kahuna gets very agitated whenever the money is mentioned, probably because he is living off it. 

    It does not matter how many words you throw at facts, the actions of Waytools are apparent. 4 years of evidence assures us no one will never receive a working product from this company in exchange for money. Ignore them, and ignore the rants of their obnoxious spokespeople Kahuna and Colin.

    Waytools has not objected to these indisputable facts: They collected money from (they claim) thousands of customers for a product that was declared ready to ship in 2015. 

    Well, they did collect the money. And they THOUGHT they would ship in 2015. So?

    You can quibble about the definition of a 'lie' until you drop dead, but nobody aware of or involved in this debacle who is not a paid shill like Kahuna or Colin believes that Waytools has behaved transparently, or ethically, or truthfully.

    In short, anyone who disagrees is lying. Wow. So, what have I been paid? You can't say with a TB because I paid for that. In fact, it is worth pointing out the inconsistencies of criticism. You see, about all you can say is I got the TB, but we've had plenty of critics make fun of us for working for nothing. So I guess those critics lied.

    Kahuna gets very agitated whenever the money is mentioned, probably because he is living off it

    You sure like making stuff up. Let me be very clear, I don't get paid by WayTools. I get paid retirement from my original work teaching, I get paid social security, and I get a tiny bit of money from part time work which I really just do to stay active in the community.

    I also happen to be the foremost expert in the entire world about where my money comes from. So let me know when you can show otherwise, rather than just making up crap because you're mad.
    colinng
  • Reply 254 of 1615
    As expected, each time the inherent conflicts in the misrepresentations are called out, the claims become more strident, and pivot to new distractions. 
  • Reply 255 of 1615

    A real customer doesn’t waste his day to do stuff like this.
    While it is always possible he isn't a real customer, I suspect he most likely is. Some people just get angry and stop thinking rationally. Instead they lash out with whatever idea comes into their head.

    I remember a case where the band director I worked with ordered a silver plated tuba from a store I was familiar with and recommended. They gave the best prices. But delivery didn't happen when expected. Month after month it was delayed. The other director thought he was being ripped off. He talked to other music stores about it and they said things like, "Yeah, they couldn't afford to sell it that cheap so they aren't shipping in hopes you will cancel so they don't take a loss". But they also said, "That's what we would do"!

    So he tells me this stuff and I tell him I know this store. They are scrupulously honest and if it isn't shipping, it is most likely the fault of the factory that makes them. I also pointed out to him that he might want to consider the other part they said - that that's what they would do! Because they were admitting they would do what they were assuming this other store was doing.

    Eventually we got the tuba. It was delayed because these instrument companies often turn out groups of instruments (like tubas) for a limited amount of time and then move on to others. We happened to order at a time when available supply was pretty much non-existent and they also weren't going to start making them again for awhile.

    Since then, almost everything we bought was from that store because they gave great prices and service. But they couldn't control the factory. Just like WT couldn't control in advance for problems they didn't know would come up with the new tech.

    colinngarkorott
  • Reply 256 of 1615
    Dbk - we don’t doubt he bought one, which is why he hides his identity.

    But we do see lots of evidence that he has no interest to use the product.  He’s keeps saying we’ve shipped zero, and will never ship any.

    A real customer buys it because he wants to use the thing, not as pretext for suits or disparagement.
    edited April 2019 colinng
  • Reply 257 of 1615
    'that I respect than Waytools'? Did you mean 'that I respect less than waytools' or 'that I respect more than waytools'? Not sure what the intent of your question is. I can tell you that there are plenty of companies I appreciate and respect and even cherish (particularly the one I work for), many CEOs I have learned from and respect, and of course there are companies I do not respect at all. Waytools is a tiny little outfit. I assume it to primarily reflect the will and attitudes of its owner Mark Knighton, a narcissistic liar who has no idea how to grow a company or cultivate customers or deliver a product or meet a deadline. It is relatively easy (compared to real accomplishment) to lie to people and take their money and deflect truth and obfuscate reality, and when a person or company does that, they should not be allowed to hide from it. Ethics in business is extremely important to keep society functioning properly. Transparency is also key to business, and of course politics. Everything waytools does is totally opaque. Because they are liars.
    Yeah, sorry about leaving out the critical word “less” from my question. What I’m having trouble understanding is why you would want to do business with a company for which you have no respect. You’ve now suggested that it is so you can sue them, if they don’t deliver the product. That will happen only if they go out of business, so what will be there to sue?

    The only way I can rationalize your behavior in my mind is that you really really want a TextBlade. You want it so much that you are willing to look past all of these other significant grievances that you have with WayTools.

    I have a very different perspective on WayTools than you do, but I think I can relate a little with your perspective. I remember when I first received my TextBlade. I thought it was amazing and had amazing potential. From a purely selfish perspective, I wanted WayTools to succeed because I didn’t want to be forced to go back to a standard keyboard again. Even so, the TextBlade did have problems. There was a time when I wasn’t sure if WayTools would ever be able to make it reliable enough for the mass market. I don’t think I was the only TREG user with that fear. Even so, the potential was so apparent that there were still lots of positive things to say about it. This could have given the impression that the TextBlade was closer to being ready to ship than it really was.

    Today, I no longer have those concerns. I think that WayTools could ship with the current firmware and many people would be happy; however, I understand why they have chosen not to do this, and I support that decision (not that my or your opinion should have any impact on what they chose to do). My understanding is that they are currently doing a significant firmware refactor and they want to have this in place prior to general release. This makes a lot of sense to me. Having two significantly different firmware branches out in the wild would complicate support. In addition, I suspect that the firmware changes are significant enough that there may be a non-trivial chance of users bricking their TextBlade when performing the update.

    I almost didn’t bother with the last paragraph because I don’t expect to influence your own view on the current situation, but I thought it may be useful for others who have the stamina to wade through all of these posts.

    TextBladeDenied later said:
    If you return all of the money you collected for 4 years of worth of orders, I would have zero - repeat: zero - criticism of you.

    I almost ignored this as hyperbole, but since you bothered to repeat it, I’ll take it at face value. You are saying:
    1. I don’t want WayTools to force refund my order
    2. I want WayTools to force refund everybody’s orders

    Since WayTools provides a mechanism for customers to cancel their orders and receive a full refund, it sounds like your real problem is with all of the other customers who, like you, don’t want to cancel their orders.

    Can you see how this may seem self-contradictory to others?
    edited April 2019 idea2go_twitter
  • Reply 258 of 1615
    Dbk - we don’t doubt he bought one, which is why he hides his identity.

    But we do see lots of evidence that he has no interest to use the product.  He’s keeps saying we’ve shipped zero, and will never ship any.

    A real customer buys it because he wants to use the thing, not as pretext for suits or disparagement.
    Well, this is my opinion:

    1. He ordered and wanted the TB.

    2. Many people "hide" their identity just because they don't want their real name all over the internet. Same reason I use dabigkahuna. Not that I worry if someone happens to know who it really is, but I prefer not to just show who I am automatically.

    3. That probably extended into not wanting his order canceled so he's extra careful about not revealing it.

    4. I suspect he'd actually still like to get it.

    All of that is understandable to me. The problem is when he goes on into how he knows it won't ship, that you lie about everything, etc. Because if he really believed that, it would make no sense to keep his order. So, at the very least, he must at think it is at least possible it will ship - enough so that he's willing to risk $100 or whatever he spent. I'm sure not accepting the excuse that he isn't canceling because he wants to sue. After all, the first thing he'll be hit with is, "If you were sure it wasn't going to ship, why didn't you cancel?"

    The rest of his stuff is likely the result of his anger causing him to make wild accusations and assumptions.

    I've just learned over time that people can do or say really weird things. I see it literally every day. And from people who would otherwise be considered intelligent.

    If he wants to say he's angry at all the delays, fine. They don't exactly make me happy either! If he wants to say it looks like you don't know how to develop a product or are bad engineers, that's fine too. And I'll post rebuttals. If he wants to say we are still waiting for a big status update that was supposed to be in a few days months ago and it hasn't happened yet, I'll even agree that even if the full planned update can't be given for some reason, there still should have been something substantial already that could be added to later.

    But all that other wild accusations make no sense.
  • Reply 259 of 1615

    There was a time when I wasn’t sure if WayTools would ever be able to make it reliable enough for the mass market. I don’t think I was the only TREG user with that fear. Even so, the potential was so apparent that there were still lots of positive things to say about it.

    Yeah, there was a time I was worried to. Sure, it did a lot of things well - enough that I didn't want to go back. But far too many problems for the mass market.

    Having two significantly different firmware branches out in the wild would complicate support. In addition, I suspect that the firmware changes are significant enough that there may be a non-trivial chance of users bricking their TextBlade when performing the update.

    Yeah, I remember one update that was so major that there was some concern that the process could mess up the TB. I think it took me at least 3 (probably more) tries to get it to finish (fortunately not bricking it). But once that was made, future updates were not particularly risk. And before someone takes that the wrong way, pretty much any time there is an iPhone or other update, some small percentage get messed up. IOW, nothing is 100% sure to be safe. Anyway, this update may very well be the same situation, though I hadn't thought of it before.

    I've made the point about support many times (which someone else originally pointed out). I don't mind people who think they should ship anyway. We can argue the pros and cons back and forth. But too often we get the "This is the only proper way to do it". Sort of like saying there is only one proper way to write the plural of "forum".



    ChrisTaylor
  • Reply 260 of 1615
    ChrisTaylor said:
    sorry about leaving out the critical word “less” from my question. What I’m having trouble understanding is why you would want to do business with a company for which you have no respect. 
    I engaged in a transaction with Waytools in 2015. The terms of the transaction were agreed upon. Money. Keyboard. Done. Waytools subsequently modified the terms, numerous times, by delaying the date of shipment. Each time that date was not met. Waytool asserted all the while that orders would be processed in the order received. False. Waytools then upped the ante and offered a 'gift' in exchange for the wait, which like so many of the proposed delays, was at the time just a matter of weeks away. That proposal, like all others, was of course not honored. The 'do business' I did with Waytools was one transaction in 2015, and ever since then Waytools has engaged in a campaign of lies in order to buy time to finish a product they knew was not ready at the time they took my money. I am not 'doing business with a company for which I have no respect'. The business done is in the distant past. Respect was granted to them up front, and then lost by them over the subsequent 4 years. I did business with a company, which subsequently broke all terms of the transactional arrangement, and by not cancelling my order, all I am doing now is holding them to the terms they originally agreed to. Holding people to terms is not a complex concept to grasp. Hope this clarifies.
    ChrisTaylor said:
    You’ve now suggested that it is so you can sue them, if they don’t deliver the product. That will happen only if they go out of business, so what will be there to sue?
    Its not that simple, as you likely well know, so there is really no point in getting into the weeds on it. Bottom line: as a customer whose money they hold, I have a claim. 

    Observe how this company talks about its customers:
    Dbk - we don’t doubt he bought one, which is why he hides his identity.
    But we do see lots of evidence that he has no interest to use the product.  He’s keeps saying we’ve shipped zero, and will never ship any.
    A real customer buys it because he wants to use the thing, not as pretext for suits or disparagement.
    That is the most brilliant example of their delusional gaslighting nonsense said about me thus far. I engaged in a single transaction in 2015. They have lied and failed in every aspect of that transaction since then, and now they go backwards in time, and call into question my original intent in buying the product, prior to experiencing their 4 year campaign of lies? It that not remarkable? Anyone with a brain can see the logical fallacy in that nonsense. They want to question the intent of my original purchase at a time that precedes when they lied to everybody for a period of 4+ years. What kind of mental issues do you have to have to rationalize so illogically? Observe 'Waytools_Support' casting dispersion on my intentions behind purchasing his phantom product 4 years ago, while he holds my money and has never provided the product offered. That is the mind of Mark Knighton. In my opinion, he is a disturbed individual.

    But I do appreciate these public attacks as they show a wider audience how he thinks and operates. Do you want to be his customer after seeing how he treats his current customers? Waytools despises the criticism and they will mangle logic and call upon their shill cohorts Kahuna and Colin to bury any critique in an ocean of words. They will attack any customer who criticizes their behavior. Because they want to keep the money. The money. The money.

    These are people behaving like thugs. Read that nonsense above again. That is not a tech entrepreneur, or a professional, or a respectable CEO. That is total garbage from the paranoid mind of a scam artist.
    ChrisTaylor said:
    My understanding is that they are currently doing a significant firmware refactor and they want to have this in place prior to general release. This makes a lot of sense to me. Having two significantly different firmware branches out in the wild would complicate support. In addition, I suspect that the firmware changes are significant enough that there may be a non-trivial chance of users bricking their TextBlade when performing the update.
    Both points are technical and highly debatable. I generally disagree with you, again without getting into the weeds. Regardless, if they cannot implement a firmware update routine that works or support a mere two versions of firmware on a single product line, then that is just demonstrative of them once again having absolutely no clue what they are doing, 4 years after the fact, which means they knew perfectly well they were not ready to ship 4 years ago, which means they lied when they said it was ready, which means they should not have been collecting money for orders. Here I go repeating myself again because it always comes back to the core facts at the outset of it all. No one can build a logical argument regarding the fundamental lie here. They did not have a working product. They knew they could not ship. They lied about it. They took the money anyway, and said it would ship anyway. 4 years ago. They have been lying ever since.
    TextBladeDenied later said:
    If you return all of the money you collected for 4 years of worth of orders, I would have zero - repeat: zero - criticism of you.
    I almost ignored this as hyperbole, but since you bothered to repeat it, I’ll take it at face value. You are saying:
    1. I don’t want WayTools to force refund my order
    2. I want WayTools to force refund everybody’s orders

    Since WayTools provides a mechanism for customers to cancel their orders and receive a full refund, it sounds like your real problem is with all of the other customers who, like you, don’t want to cancel their orders. Can you see how this may seem self-contradictory to others?
    You are correct that it was not hyperbole, and you have either slightly misunderstood or are attempting to twist what I am saying (though I do not read you as being a paid shill or manipulator in this discussion like the Waytools_support Kahuna and Colin characters).

    Do you have a basic grasp of the ethics of this matter? They were wrong to collect the money for orders in the first place. They knew they could not ship. They lied to obtain money for a product they had no intention of shipping at the original deadline. Calling upon them to return the money now is simply calling for righting a wrong 4 years past. I did not say they should cancel orders, only that they should return the money. They have a database and an order queue. They can refund all customers, then send emails when they are ready to collect payment and ship, as they should have done 4 years ago. At this point, it would be reasonable to presume (or wildly guess) that it will take them at least another 4 years before they might ship the product, which is of course as ridiculous as the past 4 years they have not shipped the product. The fact is, at this point, no one has any idea if or when they will ever ship. Thus, any further extension of time granted to them to hold on to customer money is unreasonable and unacceptable.

    Plenty of companies take orders from customers and collect when the product is ready to ship. That is the state which Waytools should return this situation to. Orders taken. Money to be collected when ready to ship. It is what they should have done at the outset instead of lying and perhaps committing fraud.

    Plenty of companies take orders and collect money up front, and then ship at a stated deadline. There is nothing wrong with that so long as the deadline is met.  And plenty of companies take orders, collect money up front, experience an unexpected delay or two, communicate transparently at every step, rectify the situation, and then ship at a stated revised deadline. Not optimal, but reasonable people accommodate reasonable delays. This is the scenario the Kahuna character likes to pretend is applicable to Waytools after 4 years and dozens upon dozens of delays beyond which they no longer even pretend to have a stated ship date for the product. Ludicrous of course.

    Waytools is in none of the above categories. They have never shipped. They do not even have a stated ship date at this point. They lie at every turn.

    What do they have? They have all the customers money. 4 years. No product. They have the money. Not investor money. Customer money. What they have done is indisputably unethical. Fraud is a legal question that will require discovery and a day in court. That day is probably coming.
     
    The bottom line is that it is all about the money. They really want to keep it, and they really do not want to be called out on it publicly. Observe them further staining their reputation with attacks upon the customers who paid them 4 years ago, in defense of the money they wish to keep in exchange for nothing.

    edited April 2019 alexonline
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