2. Many people "hide" their identity just because they don't want their real name all over the internet. Same reason I use dabigkahuna. Not that I worry if someone happens to know who it really is, but I prefer not to just show who I am automatically.
3. That probably extended into not wanting his order canceled so he's extra careful about not revealing it.
4. I suspect he'd actually still like to get it.
1. True 2. True. 3. True. 4. Of course that is true. If the product exists and works, and given that I paid for it 4 years ago - ship it. If you cannot do that, return all the customer money until you are ready to ship. This is such a simple concept, there really can be no arguing with it. But you do anyway, because when it comes to the core facts of the matter, you are as dishonest in your representation of the facts as Waytools_Support is. A viable explanation for your behavior is that you want to keep the money.
This notion that I must have some positive opinon of Waytools in order to validate or justify my position that I hold them accountable to the original terms of the transaction they entered into with me is ridiculous. I feel like I must be debating children or criminals here.
The article is pretty explicit that you’ll have to be patient. It’s in the headline.
So why do customers preorder? Many join in because they want to accelerate a change for the better.
Tesla took $40,000 deposits from Model S customers, and delivered those cars 5 years later. Most call it the best car they have ever owned. (We do). It has changed the world. The people who preordered them wanted to encourage them to make it, and in part because of their enthusiastic support, they did.
A couple years ago, they took in half a billion dollars in preorders for the Model 3. That was without precedent in the auto industry. That car is so loved by its owners, it is shaking up sales of major brands, compelling them to make good EVs, to dramatically reduce CO2 emissions.
Those early buyers helped that change happen. They were actually a pivotal part of why it happened.
Disparaging the Disruptor
Although it seems odd that someone would do this kind of disparagement campaign, it does go on in industry, no matter how big and established a company is.
Some of these campaigns can get very nasty, at times requiring court restraining orders to intervene.
It usually associates with disruptive technologies, where there’s a lot of money to be made betting on either side of the change.
There’s a case of this in the news right now with Tesla.
A cyberstalker has now been called into court by a complaint from Tesla.
There was open discussion of the idea of deliberately causing an accident just ahead of tesla’s autopilot announcement next week.
Presumably to blunt the good news of their progress.
The bad actor actually drove right into a filming area during a test, swerving into it in an unsafe maneuver. Tesla called the cops.
These guys are known short sellers, who make money concocting bad news about Tesla.
2. Many people "hide" their identity just because they don't want their real name all over the internet. Same reason I use dabigkahuna. Not that I worry if someone happens to know who it really is, but I prefer not to just show who I am automatically.
3. That probably extended into not wanting his order canceled so he's extra careful about not revealing it.
4. I suspect he'd actually still like to get it.
1. True 2. True. 3. True. 4. Of course that is true. If the product exists and works, and given that I paid for it 4 years ago - ship it. If you cannot do that, return all the customer money until you are ready to ship. This is such a simple concept, there really can be no arguing with it. But you do anyway, because when it comes to the core facts of the matter, you are as dishonest in your representation of the facts as Waytools_Support is. A viable explanation for your behavior is that you want to keep the money.
Amazing. Even after you confirm that all 4 of those things are true, you still say I'm dishonest of the facts.
Okay, pick ONE fact that I'm dishonest about. And make sure it is actually a fact and not what you want to assume.
The article is pretty explicit that you’ll have to be patient. It’s in the headline.
So why do customers preorder? Many join in because they want to accelerate a change for the better. Tesla took $40,000 deposits from Model S customers
Although it seems odd that someone would do this kind of disparagement campaign, it does go on in industry, no matter how big and established a company is. Some of these campaigns can get very nasty, at times requiring court restraining orders to intervene. A cyberstalker has now been called into court by a complaint from Tesla. These guys are known short sellers, who make money concocting bad news about Tesla.
You are not Tesla. You will never be Tesla. You have never shipped a product, unlike Tesla. Short sellers? Which exchange is your company listed on?
The most plausible explanation for why you have not shipped is that you do not have the money remaining to fulfill orders. You spent it all trying to fix your prototype - which belies your initial fraud in 2015 that you were ready to ship a working product worldwide. You were not. You lied. You took money for a product you knew you could not deliver.
You have a couple of obvious choices. You could seek outside investment to finish the product and deliver it, or you could perpetuate a pyramid scheme to gather more cash from new orders to fund the fulfillment of old orders.
Outside investment seems unlikely. You have not had enough money to fund the engineering resources necessary to finish the product and ship it even remotely near the original shipping deadline. 4 long years have passed. I detect in your personality serious flaws which prevent you from acquiring investors. Investors need to trust the people they do business with. You do not come across as a trustworthy person. I direct you to exhibits A through Z: the first 26 times you said the product would ship, and subsequently did not.
So the alternative: Pyramid scheme. You do strike me as a scam artist or a hustler. So perhaps you try to pump up a little media attention with things like an Appleinsider article. Attract some more suckers and convince them to send you $99. If you gather enough of them, you might fulfill some subset of the earliest orders, or at least continue the trickle expansion of 'treg'. Or you might just line your own pockets. Who knows? With you, it is hard to tell. Believe it or not, you do not inspire a lot of confidence that you are struggling to do as you say and provide the product you promised to your customers. Refer as necessary to exhibits A-Z again.
Ultimately, pyramid schemes fail. You need enough customers and enough profit margin to make it work. You appear to have neither.
As a token of the good faith I have granted you in the past, I offer this - if you had said at any point in the first 3+ years, 'Ok folks, it took us longer, and it cost us more. We failed in that respect. To get it across the finish line we need to raise the price.' If you had simply been transparent about how you were failing, and named the price, and then shipped the product, I would likely have gone along with it. Good will is always extended to honest and ethical people. But you are neither.
You never shipped anyone anything because you are a liar.
I have taken care to explain to everyone how unethical you are, how you lied to all your customers for the past 4 years, and how you have never shipped a working product despite countless assurances that shipping was imminent, so my guess is that the pyramid scheme approach you may be pursuing will also fail, as there will not be enough customers to fund further development or manufacturing.
Some of this is so far in the ancient past, it seems ridiculous to bring it up, but this 'Waytools_Support' person is putting on a nice performance so it must be mentioned,
For the first couple years of delays, Waytools did not communicate by saying 'we are encountering tech difficulties A, B, and C and are unable to determine at this time when we will be ready to ship a working product'. They constantly said things intended to indicate that shipping was certain within some very specifically defined window of time. It is all available on the waytools forum and the waytools blog updates if you want to dig into the past and read it yourself (at least I think it is all still there, I have not checked it in quite a while). There was post after post after post from a Waytools rep (probably Mark Knighton) saying things along the lines of 'we just have to fix this 'vaguely undefined issue' and then shipping looks 'on track' 'very good' 'promising' 'certain' 'within the next few hours' 'tomorrow' 'the next few days' 'next week' 'the next few weeks' 'next month'. They were statements that aimed to be vague, misleading, or disprovable, but were still accountable to any reasonable person as articulating a window of time which was, by any sane interpretation, far, far, far less than 4 years.
They were outright lies. Falsehoods. Shameless fabrications. And then each missed deadline was excused with gaslighting attempts to explain that they did not mean what they said the last time they said it. Often they would make promises of updates or ship dates, and then disappear entirely from the forums with no explanation, then appear days or weeks later with glib or inarticulate comments that would be comical if they were not so offensive from the perspective of a customer trying to understand when his product would arrive.
Appleinsider should review the waytools forum and collect some of those posts for a followup article and on camera interview with Mark Knighton. Does anyone here think Mark would have the guts to sit down, face a camera and answer questions about the last 4 years based on transcripts of his past statements? That would be very interesting and entertaining to watch. Not going to happen.
Do not trust these people. Do not give them your money. They are liars.
The most plausible explanation for why you have not shipped is that you do not have the money remaining to fulfill orders. You spent it all trying to fix your prototype
One of the problems with making up conspiracy theories is that eventually you end up contradicting your own arguments.
You've been told over and over that the TB had problems show up which preventing shipping. You just call everyone liars. Yet here you are saying they are trying to fix it.
You do strike me as a scam artist or a hustler. So perhaps you try to pump up a little media attention with things like an Appleinsider article. Attract some more suckers and convince them to send you $99.
That doesn't work well for you either since, if that was their goal, why on earth wait over 3 years to plant a story? And why just one?
Or you might just line your own pockets. Who knows?
Well, you don't. And once again, it makes no sense. If they wanted to line their pockets instead of getting the product out the door, why not a big advertising blitz right from the start? Why do all the work to develop the device to the present level, which had to cost millions. Any Treg tester can tell you this is highly developed, both in firmware and hardware. Oh, wait, they must be liars too.
If any of your assumptions were correct, the most obvious thing to do would have been to ship it long ago, ready or not, thus getting more people to buy who don't want to pre-order something.
if you had said at any point in the first 3+ years, 'Ok folks, it took us longer, and it cost us more. We failed in that respect. To get it across the finish line we need to raise the price.'
Well, as it happens, they have apologized for it taking longer. Surprise. Here is one I found very quickly:
>> To the spirit of your point, and to eliminate any doubt, we affirm here that we definitely empathize with your feelings, and we're truly sorry for the uncertainty and the extra time. We apologize for the delay, and that our estimates could not be more certain or precise. <<
So, there you go.
They didn't specifically say it costs them more than expected (I mean, beyond the obvious fact that the longer it takes, the more money they are spending before being able to ramp up production and thus sell more). But in the AI article, it says the price will probably go up after GR. So that's pretty well covered too.
So, the verbal violence exhibited by @Rolanbek, @ericpeets, @TextBladeDenied, @arkorott, this verbal violence is "why we can't have nice things." You are ruining it for all of us.
For the record, not all those have been consistently a problem. I'm willing to cut anyone some slack if they show signs of rational discussion even if I disagree with what they are saying. @arkorott seems to be trying to be reasonable. I don't recall at the moment if that wasn't the case with his first post - when I see someone trying to have an honest discussion, I tend to not remember if it is a new thing for them unless there is a long history. As I've said earlier, even Rolanbek has been okay recently.
I know some people do such positive things only occasionally and then go back to the bad stuff, but that's fine. I'll deal with that if it happens. If it doesn't, that's great.
I could go back to some of the stuff from 2015, but I see no reason to as long as things are good now. But textbladedenied isn't doing anything but ranting and making stuff up instead of sticking to actual facts that he could legitimately complain about. Which only weakens his case.
Okay, I will remove @Rolanbek and @arkorott from the block list and see what they've written recently.
eliminating the force refunding practice so people should not be concerned of "reprisals" if they had any critical but civil comments.
Hi Arkorott, I don't think people are concerned of reprisal when they have critical but civil comments.
There are lots of critical comments on the WayTools forums, and by my interpretation, Dabigkahuna puts out one at least every month. He doesn't have special treatment - he asks difficult questions, and often repeats them. But he is a fine example of being civil. Lots of people comment about the shipping delay or outright badger WayTools when there hasn't been an update. I don't think I've seen a civil comment result in any ban or refund, at least not in the last 2 years I've participated on the forum. I don't have time to dig back further, but 2 years of very consistent behaviour seems a reasonable timeframe for me to extrapolate backwards.
My opinion is that a lot of people abuse the boundary, and feign ignorance when they get reprimanded. I work with 8-10 year old Cub Scouts. I see that sometimes. What surprises me is when adults haven't grown out of that.
So these people behave poorly, get reprimanded (i.e. a ban) and then turn around and accuse WayTools of being draconian.
And that's why my long rant said something about people not showing any remorse. Not even an apology - they just go straight on to the next verbal assault. We all make mistakes, but we definitely have to put in the effort to fix them - in short - where communications go awry - we all have to put in the effort to be "civil".
Very few people are as patient as Dabigkahuna. I decided long ago I couldn't even be bothered to read, let alone respond to, TextBladeDenied. It's not personal. My rationale, "signal to noise ratio isn't high enough". Signal: any question, information, comment/critique/opinion that has a stable rationale (i.e. doesn't magically shift with every post). Noise: (well, I don't need to explain noise, do I?)
I simply don't have time to slog through 14!!! pages of really long posts. I'm in danger of missing signals when there is that much noise. Never mind signals, I simply don't enjoy reading all that noise. Head hurts. It's a double-whammy. I Kick myself for choosing to subject myself to a verbal assault, and I doubly kick myself for wasting precious time.
So, my personal opinion: don't let these posters back until they learn their manners. I know it sucks to be told of misbehaviour. The other day a Project Manager just outright cut me off, stared at his phone, ignored what I said, as a hint that I was off-topic. Ouch.
Oh yeah, I burned with shame. I made a mistake, someone told me about it, I got over it. I'll be more respectful with other people's time, next time.
It's really embarrassing. I know. But the sooner we acknowledge where we went wrong, the sooner we can prevent it from happening again, and get back to a happier place.
By the way, I hope you don't feel I am singling you out. With regard to mistakes, manners, and embarassment, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking in general.
First, you will remark to yourself upon the fact that the tone of the discussion there is quite similar to here, but it is over three years in the past.
Second, you might note if you read up to page 5 that everything @WayTools_Support said earlier in this thread about @Rolanbek is false. Once again, Mark Knighton is demonstrably proven to be a liar. Page 5 is also where the macrumors reporter explains why she felt Waytools misled her (3 years ago!) and will no longer give them any press coverage.
Logically, that leads to the questions: Did Appleinsider know about the macrumors debacle from over 3 years ago? Did they take into consideration all the lies and gaslighting and forced order canceling and claims of 'ready to ship' that were researched over 3 years ago by another reporter when they set about writing this current article? Or is Appleinsider just the latest rube in the Waytools propaganda machine?
Third, you'll note the same 'BigKahuna' character there with a status of 'suspended' for behaving badly as an obnoxious member of the Waytools customer service assassination squad, just as he is behaving here.
I had never read the macrumors thread until now. It is amazing. How long can a fraud like this be perpetuated before some handcuffs are placed on wrists?
Return all the money to all of your customers WayTools! Stop the pyramid scheme!
As has been the pattern here, the facts are again misrepresented to spin a dark yarn, in an attempt to distort reality.
Juli was relentlessly accused of writing a puff piece for money. She did no such thing. She reported accurately what she observed about the exciting new capabilities of this technology. The same capabilities accurately reported by William at AppleInsider, and the same excitement that he conveyed after extensively using the product for many months himself.
The reason the reports align, and confirm the same performance, is because it’s true.
Juli had indeed told the truth, just as William has. Her reports were entirely vindicated by the authentic user reviews from the hundreds of TextBlades in the field. And now by another personal user, who also happens to be a well-respected journalist for AppleInsider, another publication that has earned its own well-regarded, independent reputation.
A few actors on the scene have been profoundly adverse to the existence of this truth. Juli received many accusations that she had overstated the capabilities, for money. She repeatedly responded publicly, and emphasized that she was not paid anything, and only reported what she honestly observed. She continued reporting for a year.
But the accusers ignored her clear statements, and kept accusing her. Just as you see what’s happening on this thread, they personally attacked her, trying to cast doubt upon her core values, and her identity as journalist with integrity and substance. Her reputation for honesty is very well known, and is why we gave her full access to the product and our team. Readers trust her, and we trust her.
And yet she was subjected to the very same serial, repetitive questioning of her fundamental values and ethics. The same kind of accusations you see here in this thread. The same ‘gaslighting’ described in the Wikipedia citation, to try to manipulate a person by pushing them to doubt their own beliefs, and the very bedrock that defines their character.
She ended coverage, after 4 articles on topic, because of these abusive accusations.
Her summary comment from that post 102 below, is very explicit about the source of stress that prompted her action -
“A lot of the accusations in this thread have been off base and highly stressful for me. I've been struggling figure out how to explain myself in a way that you guys would find satisfactory, and I'm still not sure how to do it. The idea that I would deceive MacRumors readers or write something untruthful for money (or whatever other benefit I'm supposedly getting out of this) is so entirely preposterous to me that I've been at a loss for words.”
Readers often may have questions about facts and observations. That’s normal and unremarkable. But here, the reporter was not questioned about facts, she was personally attacked. The repeated posts, and private emails that you don’t see, were continually hammering her, throughout the year that she covered the story. That’s not normal. There’s some other interests at work here.
The parallels to now, on this thread, are striking. The repetitive, maniacal crusade we see here now by a supposed consumer, who spends full time labor camping on the topic. This is way out of proportion for a 99 dollar accessory, that he proclaims is a non-product, and won’t ship. Even while he knows that hundreds of them have already shipped into the field for customer validation, in grueling daily usage over 36 months. During which time this new technology has proved its worth, as a genuine game-changer.
It begs the question of who would do this, and why? Who would put so much cumulative resource toward telling people not to order something. It’s very weird indeed. Especially when anyone can opt-out at any time. Especially when the accuser himself does not follow the advice he dishes out to everyone else. He maintains his order, and yet spends his time telling others to do differently.
Logically, if either William or Juli at some point discovered they were deceived, and the product was really no good, that would be important news. Don’t you think they would report that?
Isn’t that the surest way to prove one’s journalistic integrity? Wouldn’t that summarily refute anyone who accuses a reporter of puffery?
Yet, they did not report that. Because there was no deception. There were definitely delays to perfect this new technology, and both reporters reported on them. Just as there were delays with Apple’s AirPower, and both publications reported on those too.
Phil Schiller did not deceive customers or reporters when he gave an estimate of 2018 shipping for AirPower. He told the truth of what he knew at that time, based on what his team believed was achievable. But new challenges arose, beyond what Apple could foresee, and after 2 years of trying, they canceled it.
In contrast, after one year of extra work, WayTools did not cancel. Instead, we began shipping TextBlade, in limited quantities to paying customers. We worked through whatever they found or needed, and validated it across hundreds of diverse operating environments.
This is a very different reality than the false picture painted by some anonymous posters.
It is hard to imagine how so much effort would be put to discrediting people who are making something much needed, and very good. There is amazing, selfless work being done by our engineering team. They are a cadre of experts with full hearts, deeply passionate about delivering something to every customer, that surprises and delights them. And it’s working. All the extra work and time to thoroughly validate something you will depend on every day,- this turned out to be a smart thing to do. You can hear the results in the voices of the customers who have them.
Whatever agenda some may have - to knock the people doing the very hard work of bringing forth something genuinely better - whatever their purpose in the constant dark spin, it doesn’t matter. The bizarre FUD campaign will pass, and will be a minor and forgettable footnote to a much more important story - of how the keyboard was brought forward for the modern era.
What matters is that the product be good. Really good. What matters is that we remain steadfast. What matters is that we deliver something to all who trusted us, that compellingly affirms that it was indeed worth all that it took to create.
What verbal violence ? Can you please read all my comments. Do not make stuff up. You are mentioning me, while I have never addressed you or mentioned you. Why don't you walk your own talk.
I complain because I feel mistreated by WT. You can read all comments wouldlovetobuy @ WTF or @Arkorott here, and later if you want we can discuss 1-1 where do you see "verbal violence" and where do I see "mistreatment".
A few days ago I offered an olive branch. I was ignored. I even congratulated WT on their civility of some posts, and even encouraged to all of focus or QA on product / company and not personal, attacks, snide comments, or the ridiculous and unproductive arguments back and forth of fora vs forums.
It is useful if it cautions someone just discovering the company to avoid giving them money. What exactly is the point of placating them? This has been going on for 4 years. They are doing what criminals do - refusing to do as they said, and keeping all the money. Why give them even an inch at this point? Why continue to let them get away with it?
I sincerely dont know what you mean by focus on product/company QA. Have you seen how they communicate? What are you trying to accomplish here? I'm not asking rhetorically. Do you think you will somehow transform them into normal people who act professionally and communicate clearly and do as they say?
I felt we were all being carried away and arguing for the sake of arguing. Forums vs Fora discussion a paramount example. Who cares ? I just want to get back to have a dialogue. I am still upset. I still think I was mistreated, but I would like to take the opportunity we are having communication with WT to focus on QA of the TB as would like to know in more detail where we are in the firmware completion (and I stress more detail: when it will go out to TREG, how much time for validation, when they aim for it to be ready, etc etc). I still want my TB asap I guess.
So to answer your question: perhaps nobody "transforms into normal people", but I am not trying to invite them for dinner at home, I just want to have a civilized discussion on the TB in much more depth vs what has been shared so far, and have them ship units in current state to the ones that preordered with all the units in pallets mentioned already.
For the record, not all those have been consistently a problem. I'm willing to cut anyone some slack if they show signs of rational discussion even if I disagree with what they are saying. @arkorott seems to be trying to be reasonable. I don't recall at the moment if that wasn't the case with his first post - when I see someone trying to have an honest discussion, I tend to not remember if it is a new thing for them unless there is a long history. As I've said earlier, even Rolanbek has been okay recently.
Well, thank you. You at least noticed. I guess we can all get carried away in the middle of an argument, we just need to get back on track. The ultimate motive of everybody posting here, at WTF or reddit is because they care. They want their units now or they used to want them in the past. I would like the dialogue to get more productive I guess. Bashing WT was not my intent. I am still upset. I still feel I was unjustly banned (wouldlovetobuy @ WTF), WT has not responded my last few emails, etc, but after getting banned (accused of being a shill for Planet Computers) I actually bought a Gemini and I was very disappointed with the SW performance I decided to cut some slack to WT and be more patient. As I said I cannot imagine a company not launching a core product just because. I hope it is not because they are liars as somebody else wrote above, but just sorting through the firmware. WT, can we talk on the firmware status / next steps in more detail with some planned dates if possible too ? Also, WT can you talk about the possibility of using current pallets of units to get shipped to current pre-orders with current firmware ? (is it a numbers game, you do not have enough ? You would need to prioritize with some given criteria ? or what would be the show stopper ?)
Dbk - we don’t doubt he bought one, which is why he hides his identity.
But we do see lots of evidence that he has no interest to use the product. He’s keeps saying we’ve shipped zero, and will never ship any.
A real customer buys it because he wants to use the thing, not as pretext for suits or disparagement.
well, as someone who has made a purchase; been banned (for reasons i can't tell, at least the first time, i'll accept DBK's accusation of rudeness on the second ban, even if i don't think i was being rude). i'm a real customer, i want to use the thing, i've not accepted the refund because, a. i really do want a very mobile, highly portable keyboard. but b. i also want to be a burr in the side, which may be rude to say but four years of none-delivery, a lack of communication, minimal apologies, and the like, i think y'all deserve some burrs in the side, if only to be a reminder of what was promised, and still not delivered.
now i will say that on occasion, WT did apologize, but as they banned detractors, those apologies were no longer forthcoming, and do i think repeated apologies are necessary, yes. i kick you once, and say sorry. i kick you again, my response shouldn't be, i apologized before. miss a deadline, apologize. miss another and another -- more apologies become necessary. and i still think you should put out a t-shirt that says, "I ordered a textblade four years ago, and all i got was this t-shirt, but it's coming... i'm sure of it... one day... someday soon..."
anyone remember the textblade calendar someone made? who would have thought we'd still be waiting in 2019?
also, can a statement become a lie by leaving it out there? and this is a real question, for example if i promise something by June 15th, and on may 25th i realize it's not going to come by June 15th, leaving it out there that it's coming June 15th, does that become a lie as soon as i know it's not coming?
man i didn't mean for this to become so verbose... anyway, hope i get my tb soon, really still do want to be that mobile, but at this rate it may no longer be compatible with my iPad mini2.
eliminating the force refunding practice so people should not be concerned of "reprisals" if they had any critical but civil comments.
Hi Arkorott, I don't think people are concerned of reprisal when they have critical but civil comments.
... My opinion is that a lot of people abuse the boundary, and feign ignorance when they get reprimanded. I work with 8-10 year old Cub Scouts. I see that sometimes. What surprises me is when adults haven't grown out of that.
So these people behave poorly, get reprimanded (i.e. a ban) and then turn around and accuse WayTools of being draconian. ...
By the way, I hope you don't feel I am singling you out. With regard to mistakes, manners, and embarassment, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking in general.
Hey colinng, ok not taking it personally, just using me as an example:
1 - I do think people are concerned of reprisal. Many have stated it here and at WTF they are concerned. How many times have you read "please don't cancel my order" by very many different posters at WTF ? That alone speaks volumes that they do fear.
2 - I cannot speak for everybody that got banned as I do not have the time to investigate, but pls check wouldlovetobuy at WTF (me). You will see that the thread of "next updates posts" for example I started it. Check my last few posts that lead to banning and come up with your own conclusions if it was fair or not. I was accused of being a shill for Planet Computers - which I am not. I placed my TB order WAY before Planet Computers existed. The experience I mentioned here with Planet Computers of disappointment in their SW that lead to more patience with WT (which I could not follow-up on WTF because of the ban), I even shared directly with WT by email after I explained too my original intent. Result: I am still unjustly banned.
3 - I do feel mistreated and silenced, but as I said in other posts I am trying to let go of that and get into more practical TB related stuff. (I would post at WTF if I could BTW)
4 - That is why I encourage WTF to start anew and eliminate bans and enforced refunding. Only when things get into personal attacks, snide comments ban people. Only as a last resort not as "normal practice".
Interesting. Is the TB easy to disassemble, then, for self repairs and such? And also to put back together?
Yes. Confidence probably comes with practice. I’d say the motion will accelerate wear so I wouldn’t recommend doing it just because you are bored. The important bit, I think, is making sure that the butterflies are lapped correctly. Easy to test but small and a little tricky to get first go. There is a video of the process on the waytools.rocks wiki in the Troubleshooting section.
Just a little advanced warning for those looking at the page and scanning quickly for what looks like a video - you won't find the expected visual. Instead, you'll read text that says, "Video demonstrating..." and they have to click on that. One for removing and for putting it back together. Also, at least to me, I looks like the cap is just popped right of by pulling it up. When I went through this with Mark, he said to twist it (by holding down the keycap(s) along side the one you are removing, you can twist it off). I do, when assembling, just snap it down though.
Like you said, it was a bit tricky the first time I did it (getting the butterflies right), but it's not a big deal now.
Certain posters here are remarkably well-versed in the act of gaslighting,
Opinion
as manifest in the extremes to which they practice it.
in your opinion
A related technique is to concurrently accuse their target of the very abuse being visited upon them.
Fascinating. Are you trying to claim that the tactic your are using is being used by the people you yourself are being accused of using this tactic, by?
The latter aims to confuse third party observers.
Well assuming that several different actors from around the world who all accused you of acting in the same way towards them are all using the same 'tactic' at the same time. Ah yes but didn't you accuse them all of being a shadowy cabal acting at the behest of competitors, something you have not produced any evidence of. So lets see here, you have a claim that the people you have force refunded or ditched from WTF (WayTools Forum) and people here, are all in it together. Cui bono?
I seems that it is to your advantage that this be true, yet I see nothing anywhere that names a mastermind competitor company. So if you have a company name, as you are so certain that there is a benefit to them for running whatever you are accusing your critics of, spit it out. I would love to invite that company here to comment.
This misdirection is to provide cover, and avoid scrutiny.
Misdirection is it? You have written a lot of words here but stopped short of:
The Textblades on those pallets are finished.
The article makes that claim, journalists work on information received, from where did that claim originate?
It's not like we are 200 comments into this thread and Jumbo has left the room. He is still there messing up the doilies and knocking over the standard lamp.
Reviewing some of those posts above, it’s pretty obvious what’s happening and who’s doing it.
Yes it is obvious.
There’s plenty of textbook evidence here of this illicit practice.
Ooh, that just raised the stakes. So you are accusing all those in this thread who have criticism of your company, it's communications and it's customer service of 'illicit practice'
illicit /ɪˈlɪsɪt/ adjectiveforbidden by law, rules, or custom.
So what is the exact thing you are accusing you customers of, and which law, rule or custom are you claiming they, and lets remember you are claiming that they are acting in concert on behalf of a competitor whom you have yet to name, have broken?
Many of the keywords in the Wikipedia article on topic are in fact used in their posts.
And yours. So if using words in Wikipedia articles is evidence of doing the thing the article is about, you are also by that logic guilty of the same. It is weird to accuse yourself of the thing you claim others are doing with the argument you use as evidence as the claim.
The abuser calls their targets insane, delusional, liars, and makes the attacks quite personal.
I direct you to your opening comments directed at me. (from the same copy pasta article)
One sure sign of toxicity is when a person is chronically unwilling to see his or her own shortcomings and uses everythingin their power to avoid being held accountable for them.This is known as projection. Projection is a defense mechanism used to displace responsibility of one’s negativebehavior and traits by attributing them to someone else. It ultimately acts as a digression that avoids ownership and accountability.
Malignant narcissists and sociopaths use word salad, circular conversations, ad hominem arguments, projection and gaslighting to disorient you and get you off track should you ever disagree with them or challenge them in any way. They do this in order to discredit, confuse and frustrate you, distract you from the main problem and make you feel guilty for being a human being with actual thoughts and feelings that might differ from their own. In their eyes, you are the problem if you happen to exist.
This is also a popular form of diversion and cognitive distortion that is known as “mind reading.” Toxic people often presume they know what you’re thinking and feeling. They chronically jump to conclusions based on their own triggers rather than stepping back to evaluate the situation mindfully. They act accordingly based on their own delusions and fallacies and make no apologies for the harm they cause as a result. Notorious for putting words in your mouth, they depict you as having an intention or outlandish viewpoint you didn’t possess. They accuse you of thinking of them as toxic – even before you’ve gotten the chance to call them out on their behavior – and this also serves as a form of preemptive defense.
The abuser hides behind a pseudonym,
Waytools_support is a pseudonym. People who don't want companies cancelling their orders also go to lengths to stop their live orders being cancelled because the company is having a tantrum.
whereas the target is a real named entity, staff, and address. This asymmetry of identity is central to the tactic.
The assumption here is that a tactic is being used. I asked questions, and quite reasonable ones at that, regarding the product and the article. Non WT employees seem to have no issue in answering them. WayTools support immediately launch into a flurry of personal attacks containing proven misinformation. One might be forgiven for thinking that is was a 'well poisoning' attack, but then I would have to be able to read you mind to know that for certain and make that claim. Wouldn't I?
I have refrained from making personal attacks, preferring to rely on fact, evidence and asking questions to clarify ambiguous positions.
Anonymous accusations made against a public target make clear who is doing what to whom.
Again assuming there is some tactic being used. And again as a current customer I ask "cui bono?" What benefit is it to me if you never ship a product?
Hadn’t researched this before being accused,
Had you not? That is interesting. What possible reason would you have for claiming prior ignorance of this?
but the technique is well-studied, and the correlation here is rather striking.
All join in now: Correlation does not equal causation.
Anyone who wants to attack us, should direct it at us, and not at a reporter who covers a story. - Waytools 2016
For someone willing to invoke this, you seem to be unwilling to deal with anyone's actual questions. Let alone whatever you perceive to be 'attacks'. I add this quote because I think it illustrates quite nicely the combative nature of interactions with WT. You are not treated as customers, but assailants.
Comments
2. True.
3. True.
4. Of course that is true. If the product exists and works, and given that I paid for it 4 years ago - ship it. If you cannot do that, return all the customer money until you are ready to ship. This is such a simple concept, there really can be no arguing with it. But you do anyway, because when it comes to the core facts of the matter, you are as dishonest in your representation of the facts as Waytools_Support is. A viable explanation for your behavior is that you want to keep the money.
So why do customers preorder? Many join in because they want to accelerate a change for the better.
Tesla took $40,000 deposits from Model S customers, and delivered those cars 5 years later. Most call it the best car they have ever owned. (We do). It has changed the world. The people who preordered them wanted to encourage them to make it, and in part because of their enthusiastic support, they did.
A couple years ago, they took in half a billion dollars in preorders for the Model 3. That was without precedent in the auto industry. That car is so loved by its owners, it is shaking up sales of major brands, compelling them to make good EVs, to dramatically reduce CO2 emissions.
Those early buyers helped that change happen. They were actually a pivotal part of why it happened.
Disparaging the Disruptor
Although it seems odd that someone would do this kind of disparagement campaign, it does go on in industry, no matter how big and established a company is.
Some of these campaigns can get very nasty, at times requiring court restraining orders to intervene.
It usually associates with disruptive technologies, where there’s a lot of money to be made betting on either side of the change.
There’s a case of this in the news right now with Tesla.
A cyberstalker has now been called into court by a complaint from Tesla.
There was open discussion of the idea of deliberately causing an accident just ahead of tesla’s autopilot announcement next week.
Presumably to blunt the good news of their progress.
The bad actor actually drove right into a filming area during a test, swerving into it in an unsafe maneuver. Tesla called the cops.
These guys are known short sellers, who make money concocting bad news about Tesla.
And they just tweeted this -
“An apocalyptic image accompanies the tweet.” Basically, spinning dark news. Spinning FUD.
It’s a familiar tactic. The complaint described obsessive, stalking behavior.Two brothers, one of whom turns out to work for VW. This kind of bad stuff most definitely does happen.
It’s sick.
https://electrek.co/2019/04/20/tesla-shorts-threaten-accidents-restraining-order/
The most plausible explanation for why you have not shipped is that you do not have the money remaining to fulfill orders. You spent it all trying to fix your prototype - which belies your initial fraud in 2015 that you were ready to ship a working product worldwide. You were not. You lied. You took money for a product you knew you could not deliver.
You have a couple of obvious choices. You could seek outside investment to finish the product and deliver it, or you could perpetuate a pyramid scheme to gather more cash from new orders to fund the fulfillment of old orders.
Outside investment seems unlikely. You have not had enough money to fund the engineering resources necessary to finish the product and ship it even remotely near the original shipping deadline. 4 long years have passed. I detect in your personality serious flaws which prevent you from acquiring investors. Investors need to trust the people they do business with. You do not come across as a trustworthy person. I direct you to exhibits A through Z: the first 26 times you said the product would ship, and subsequently did not.
So the alternative: Pyramid scheme. You do strike me as a scam artist or a hustler. So perhaps you try to pump up a little media attention with things like an Appleinsider article. Attract some more suckers and convince them to send you $99. If you gather enough of them, you might fulfill some subset of the earliest orders, or at least continue the trickle expansion of 'treg'. Or you might just line your own pockets. Who knows? With you, it is hard to tell. Believe it or not, you do not inspire a lot of confidence that you are struggling to do as you say and provide the product you promised to your customers. Refer as necessary to exhibits A-Z again.
Ultimately, pyramid schemes fail. You need enough customers and enough profit margin to make it work. You appear to have neither.
As a token of the good faith I have granted you in the past, I offer this - if you had said at any point in the first 3+ years, 'Ok folks, it took us longer, and it cost us more. We failed in that respect. To get it across the finish line we need to raise the price.' If you had simply been transparent about how you were failing, and named the price, and then shipped the product, I would likely have gone along with it. Good will is always extended to honest and ethical people. But you are neither.
You never shipped anyone anything because you are a liar.
I have taken care to explain to everyone how unethical you are, how you lied to all your customers for the past 4 years, and how you have never shipped a working product despite countless assurances that shipping was imminent, so my guess is that the pyramid scheme approach you may be pursuing will also fail, as there will not be enough customers to fund further development or manufacturing.
For the first couple years of delays, Waytools did not communicate by saying 'we are encountering tech difficulties A, B, and C and are unable to determine at this time when we will be ready to ship a working product'. They constantly said things intended to indicate that shipping was certain within some very specifically defined window of time. It is all available on the waytools forum and the waytools blog updates if you want to dig into the past and read it yourself (at least I think it is all still there, I have not checked it in quite a while). There was post after post after post from a Waytools rep (probably Mark Knighton) saying things along the lines of 'we just have to fix this 'vaguely undefined issue' and then shipping looks 'on track' 'very good' 'promising' 'certain' 'within the next few hours' 'tomorrow' 'the next few days' 'next week' 'the next few weeks' 'next month'. They were statements that aimed to be vague, misleading, or disprovable, but were still accountable to any reasonable person as articulating a window of time which was, by any sane interpretation, far, far, far less than 4 years.
They were outright lies. Falsehoods. Shameless fabrications. And then each missed deadline was excused with gaslighting attempts to explain that they did not mean what they said the last time they said it. Often they would make promises of updates or ship dates, and then disappear entirely from the forums with no explanation, then appear days or weeks later with glib or inarticulate comments that would be comical if they were not so offensive from the perspective of a customer trying to understand when his product would arrive.
Appleinsider should review the waytools forum and collect some of those posts for a followup article and on camera interview with Mark Knighton. Does anyone here think Mark would have the guts to sit down, face a camera and answer questions about the last 4 years based on transcripts of his past statements? That would be very interesting and entertaining to watch. Not going to happen.
Do not trust these people. Do not give them your money. They are liars.
One of the problems with making up conspiracy theories is that eventually you end up contradicting your own arguments.
That doesn't work well for you either since, if that was their goal, why on earth wait over 3 years to plant a story? And why just one?
Well, you don't. And once again, it makes no sense. If they wanted to line their pockets instead of getting the product out the door, why not a big advertising blitz right from the start? Why do all the work to develop the device to the present level, which had to cost millions. Any Treg tester can tell you this is highly developed, both in firmware and hardware. Oh, wait, they must be liars too.
If any of your assumptions were correct, the most obvious thing to do would have been to ship it long ago, ready or not, thus getting more people to buy who don't want to pre-order something.
Well, as it happens, they have apologized for it taking longer. Surprise. Here is one I found very quickly:
>> To the spirit of your point, and to eliminate any doubt, we affirm here that we definitely empathize with your feelings, and we're truly sorry for the uncertainty and the extra time. We apologize for the delay, and that our estimates could not be more certain or precise. <<
So, there you go.
They didn't specifically say it costs them more than expected (I mean, beyond the obvious fact that the longer it takes, the more money they are spending before being able to ramp up production and thus sell more). But in the AI article, it says the price will probably go up after GR. So that's pretty well covered too.
So you got what you said you wanted.
With the sole exception of you yourself, of course.
There are lots of critical comments on the WayTools forums, and by my interpretation, Dabigkahuna puts out one at least every month. He doesn't have special treatment - he asks difficult questions, and often repeats them. But he is a fine example of being civil. Lots of people comment about the shipping delay or outright badger WayTools when there hasn't been an update. I don't think I've seen a civil comment result in any ban or refund, at least not in the last 2 years I've participated on the forum. I don't have time to dig back further, but 2 years of very consistent behaviour seems a reasonable timeframe for me to extrapolate backwards.
My opinion is that a lot of people abuse the boundary, and feign ignorance when they get reprimanded. I work with 8-10 year old Cub Scouts. I see that sometimes. What surprises me is when adults haven't grown out of that.
So these people behave poorly, get reprimanded (i.e. a ban) and then turn around and accuse WayTools of being draconian.
And that's why my long rant said something about people not showing any remorse. Not even an apology - they just go straight on to the next verbal assault. We all make mistakes, but we definitely have to put in the effort to fix them - in short - where communications go awry - we all have to put in the effort to be "civil".
Very few people are as patient as Dabigkahuna. I decided long ago I couldn't even be bothered to read, let alone respond to, TextBladeDenied. It's not personal. My rationale, "signal to noise ratio isn't high enough". Signal: any question, information, comment/critique/opinion that has a stable rationale (i.e. doesn't magically shift with every post). Noise: (well, I don't need to explain noise, do I?)
I simply don't have time to slog through 14!!! pages of really long posts. I'm in danger of missing signals when there is that much noise. Never mind signals, I simply don't enjoy reading all that noise. Head hurts. It's a double-whammy. I Kick myself for choosing to subject myself to a verbal assault, and I doubly kick myself for wasting precious time.
So, my personal opinion: don't let these posters back until they learn their manners. I know it sucks to be told of misbehaviour. The other day a Project Manager just outright cut me off, stared at his phone, ignored what I said, as a hint that I was off-topic. Ouch.
Oh yeah, I burned with shame. I made a mistake, someone told me about it, I got over it. I'll be more respectful with other people's time, next time.
It's really embarrassing. I know. But the sooner we acknowledge where we went wrong, the sooner we can prevent it from happening again, and get back to a happier place.
By the way, I hope you don't feel I am singling you out. With regard to mistakes, manners, and embarassment, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking in general.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/waytools-textblade-keyboard-to-start-shipping-to-test-group-users-next-week.1957232/
First, you will remark to yourself upon the fact that the tone of the discussion there is quite similar to here, but it is over three years in the past.
Second, you might note if you read up to page 5 that everything @WayTools_Support said earlier in this thread about @Rolanbek is false. Once again, Mark Knighton is demonstrably proven to be a liar. Page 5 is also where the macrumors reporter explains why she felt Waytools misled her (3 years ago!) and will no longer give them any press coverage.
Logically, that leads to the questions: Did Appleinsider know about the macrumors debacle from over 3 years ago? Did they take into consideration all the lies and gaslighting and forced order canceling and claims of 'ready to ship' that were researched over 3 years ago by another reporter when they set about writing this current article? Or is Appleinsider just the latest rube in the Waytools propaganda machine?
Third, you'll note the same 'BigKahuna' character there with a status of 'suspended' for behaving badly as an obnoxious member of the Waytools customer service assassination squad, just as he is behaving here.
I had never read the macrumors thread until now. It is amazing. How long can a fraud like this be perpetuated before some handcuffs are placed on wrists?
Return all the money to all of your customers WayTools! Stop the pyramid scheme!
Juli was relentlessly accused of writing a puff piece for money. She did no such thing. She reported accurately what she observed about the exciting new capabilities of this technology. The same capabilities accurately reported by William at AppleInsider, and the same excitement that he conveyed after extensively using the product for many months himself.
The reason the reports align, and confirm the same performance, is because it’s true.
Juli had indeed told the truth, just as William has. Her reports were entirely vindicated by the authentic user reviews from the hundreds of TextBlades in the field. And now by another personal user, who also happens to be a well-respected journalist for AppleInsider, another publication that has earned its own well-regarded, independent reputation.
A few actors on the scene have been profoundly adverse to the existence of this truth. Juli received many accusations that she had overstated the capabilities, for money. She repeatedly responded publicly, and emphasized that she was not paid anything, and only reported what she honestly observed. She continued reporting for a year.
But the accusers ignored her clear statements, and kept accusing her. Just as you see what’s happening on this thread, they personally attacked her, trying to cast doubt upon her core values, and her identity as journalist with integrity and substance. Her reputation for honesty is very well known, and is why we gave her full access to the product and our team. Readers trust her, and we trust her.
And yet she was subjected to the very same serial, repetitive questioning of her fundamental values and ethics. The same kind of accusations you see here in this thread. The same ‘gaslighting’ described in the Wikipedia citation, to try to manipulate a person by pushing them to doubt their own beliefs, and the very bedrock that defines their character.
She ended coverage, after 4 articles on topic, because of these abusive accusations.
Her summary comment from that post 102 below, is very explicit about the source of stress that prompted her action -
“A lot of the accusations in this thread have been off base and highly stressful for me. I've been struggling figure out how to explain myself in a way that you guys would find satisfactory, and I'm still not sure how to do it. The idea that I would deceive MacRumors readers or write something untruthful for money (or whatever other benefit I'm supposedly getting out of this) is so entirely preposterous to me that I've been at a loss for words.”
Readers often may have questions about facts and observations. That’s normal and unremarkable. But here, the reporter was not questioned about facts, she was personally attacked. The repeated posts, and private emails that you don’t see, were continually hammering her, throughout the year that she covered the story. That’s not normal. There’s some other interests at work here.
The parallels to now, on this thread, are striking. The repetitive, maniacal crusade we see here now by a supposed consumer, who spends full time labor camping on the topic. This is way out of proportion for a 99 dollar accessory, that he proclaims is a non-product, and won’t ship. Even while he knows that hundreds of them have already shipped into the field for customer validation, in grueling daily usage over 36 months. During which time this new technology has proved its worth, as a genuine game-changer.
It begs the question of who would do this, and why? Who would put so much cumulative resource toward telling people not to order something. It’s very weird indeed. Especially when anyone can opt-out at any time. Especially when the accuser himself does not follow the advice he dishes out to everyone else. He maintains his order, and yet spends his time telling others to do differently.
Logically, if either William or Juli at some point discovered they were deceived, and the product was really no good, that would be important news. Don’t you think they would report that?
Isn’t that the surest way to prove one’s journalistic integrity? Wouldn’t that summarily refute anyone who accuses a reporter of puffery?
Yet, they did not report that. Because there was no deception. There were definitely delays to perfect this new technology, and both reporters reported on them. Just as there were delays with Apple’s AirPower, and both publications reported on those too.
Phil Schiller did not deceive customers or reporters when he gave an estimate of 2018 shipping for AirPower. He told the truth of what he knew at that time, based on what his team believed was achievable. But new challenges arose, beyond what Apple could foresee, and after 2 years of trying, they canceled it.
In contrast, after one year of extra work, WayTools did not cancel. Instead, we began shipping TextBlade, in limited quantities to paying customers. We worked through whatever they found or needed, and validated it across hundreds of diverse operating environments.
This is a very different reality than the false picture painted by some anonymous posters.
It is hard to imagine how so much effort would be put to discrediting people who are making something much needed, and very good. There is amazing, selfless work being done by our engineering team. They are a cadre of experts with full hearts, deeply passionate about delivering something to every customer, that surprises and delights them. And it’s working. All the extra work and time to thoroughly validate something you will depend on every day,- this turned out to be a smart thing to do. You can hear the results in the voices of the customers who have them.
Whatever agenda some may have - to knock the people doing the very hard work of bringing forth something genuinely better - whatever their purpose in the constant dark spin, it doesn’t matter. The bizarre FUD campaign will pass, and will be a minor and forgettable footnote to a much more important story - of how the keyboard was brought forward for the modern era.
What matters is that the product be good. Really good. What matters is that we remain steadfast. What matters is that we deliver something to all who trusted us, that compellingly affirms that it was indeed worth all that it took to create.
You are mentioning me, while I have never addressed you or mentioned you.
Why don't you walk your own talk.
I complain because I feel mistreated by WT. You can read all comments wouldlovetobuy @ WTF or @Arkorott here, and later if you want we can discuss 1-1 where do you see "verbal violence" and where do I see "mistreatment".
A few days ago I offered an olive branch. I was ignored. I even congratulated WT on their civility of some posts, and even encouraged to all of focus or QA on product / company and not personal, attacks, snide comments, or the ridiculous and unproductive arguments back and forth of fora vs forums.
I felt we were all being carried away and arguing for the sake of arguing. Forums vs Fora discussion a paramount example. Who cares ?
I just want to get back to have a dialogue. I am still upset. I still think I was mistreated, but I would like to take the opportunity we are having communication with WT to focus on QA of the TB as would like to know in more detail where we are in the firmware completion (and I stress more detail: when it will go out to TREG, how much time for validation, when they aim for it to be ready, etc etc). I still want my TB asap I guess.
So to answer your question: perhaps nobody "transforms into normal people", but I am not trying to invite them for dinner at home, I just want to have a civilized discussion on the TB in much more depth vs what has been shared so far, and have them ship units in current state to the ones that preordered with all the units in pallets mentioned already.
The ultimate motive of everybody posting here, at WTF or reddit is because they care. They want their units now or they used to want them in the past. I would like the dialogue to get more productive I guess. Bashing WT was not my intent. I am still upset. I still feel I was unjustly banned (wouldlovetobuy @ WTF), WT has not responded my last few emails, etc, but after getting banned (accused of being a shill for Planet Computers) I actually bought a Gemini and I was very disappointed with the SW performance I decided to cut some slack to WT and be more patient.
As I said I cannot imagine a company not launching a core product just because. I hope it is not because they are liars as somebody else wrote above, but just sorting through the firmware.
WT, can we talk on the firmware status / next steps in more detail with some planned dates if possible too ?
Also, WT can you talk about the possibility of using current pallets of units to get shipped to current pre-orders with current firmware ? (is it a numbers game, you do not have enough ? You would need to prioritize with some given criteria ? or what would be the show stopper ?)
now i will say that on occasion, WT did apologize, but as they banned detractors, those apologies were no longer forthcoming, and do i think repeated apologies are necessary, yes. i kick you once, and say sorry. i kick you again, my response shouldn't be, i apologized before. miss a deadline, apologize. miss another and another -- more apologies become necessary. and i still think you should put out a t-shirt that says, "I ordered a textblade four years ago, and all i got was this t-shirt, but it's coming... i'm sure of it... one day... someday soon..."
anyone remember the textblade calendar someone made? who would have thought we'd still be waiting in 2019?
also, can a statement become a lie by leaving it out there? and this is a real question, for example if i promise something by June 15th, and on may 25th i realize it's not going to come by June 15th, leaving it out there that it's coming June 15th, does that become a lie as soon as i know it's not coming?
man i didn't mean for this to become so verbose... anyway, hope i get my tb soon, really still do want to be that mobile, but at this rate it may no longer be compatible with my iPad mini2.
1 - I do think people are concerned of reprisal. Many have stated it here and at WTF they are concerned. How many times have you read "please don't cancel my order" by very many different posters at WTF ? That alone speaks volumes that they do fear.
2 - I cannot speak for everybody that got banned as I do not have the time to investigate, but pls check wouldlovetobuy at WTF (me). You will see that the thread of "next updates posts" for example I started it. Check my last few posts that lead to banning and come up with your own conclusions if it was fair or not.
I was accused of being a shill for Planet Computers - which I am not. I placed my TB order WAY before Planet Computers existed.
The experience I mentioned here with Planet Computers of disappointment in their SW that lead to more patience with WT (which I could not follow-up on WTF because of the ban), I even shared directly with WT by email after I explained too my original intent.
Result: I am still unjustly banned.
3 - I do feel mistreated and silenced, but as I said in other posts I am trying to let go of that and get into more practical TB related stuff. (I would post at WTF if I could BTW)
4 - That is why I encourage WTF to start anew and eliminate bans and enforced refunding. Only when things get into personal attacks, snide comments ban people. Only as a last resort not as "normal practice".
Edit: typos and clarified meaning
Opinion
in your opinion
Fascinating. Are you trying to claim that the tactic your are using is being used by the people you yourself are being accused of using this tactic, by?
Well assuming that several different actors from around the world who all accused you of acting in the same way towards them are all using the same 'tactic' at the same time. Ah yes but didn't you accuse them all of being a shadowy cabal acting at the behest of competitors, something you have not produced any evidence of. So lets see here, you have a claim that the people you have force refunded or ditched from WTF (WayTools Forum) and people here, are all in it together. Cui bono?
I seems that it is to your advantage that this be true, yet I see nothing anywhere that names a mastermind competitor company. So if you have a company name, as you are so certain that there is a benefit to them for running whatever you are accusing your critics of, spit it out. I would love to invite that company here to comment.
Misdirection is it? You have written a lot of words here but stopped short of:
The Textblades on those pallets are finished.
The article makes that claim, journalists work on information received, from where did that claim originate?
It's not like we are 200 comments into this thread and Jumbo has left the room. He is still there messing up the doilies and knocking over the standard lamp.
Yes it is obvious.
There’s plenty of textbook evidence here of this illicit practice.Ooh, that just raised the stakes. So you are accusing all those in this thread who have criticism of your company, it's communications and it's customer service of 'illicit practice'
And yours. So if using words in Wikipedia articles is evidence of doing the thing the article is about, you are also by that logic guilty of the same. It is weird to accuse yourself of the thing you claim others are doing with the argument you use as evidence as the claim.
I direct you to your opening comments directed at me. (from the same copy pasta article)
Waytools_support is a pseudonym. People who don't want companies cancelling their orders also go to lengths to stop their live orders being cancelled because the company is having a tantrum.
The assumption here is that a tactic is being used. I asked questions, and quite reasonable ones at that, regarding the product and the article. Non WT employees seem to have no issue in answering them. WayTools support immediately launch into a flurry of personal attacks containing proven misinformation. One might be forgiven for thinking that is was a 'well poisoning' attack, but then I would have to be able to read you mind to know that for certain and make that claim. Wouldn't I?
I have refrained from making personal attacks, preferring to rely on fact, evidence and asking questions to clarify ambiguous positions.
Again assuming there is some tactic being used. And again as a current customer I ask "cui bono?" What benefit is it to me if you never ship a product?
Had you not? That is interesting. What possible reason would you have for claiming prior ignorance of this?
All join in now: Correlation does not equal causation.
For someone willing to invoke this, you seem to be unwilling to deal with anyone's actual questions. Let alone whatever you perceive to be 'attacks'. I add this quote because I think it illustrates quite nicely the combative nature of interactions with WT. You are not treated as customers, but assailants.
R
I wouldn't bother Colin we both know it's a waste of time.
R