I agree. I've said all along that the PowerBook line should be that: power, and NO compromises. They should ALL share a core set of features (DVI, L3 cache, FireWire 800, AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth, the latest, fastest possible optical drives, illuminated keyboard, etc.).
People would then simply buy based on screen size and MAYBE a slight clock speed difference. I wouldn't mind the 12" model being, say, 1GHz and the 15" having a choice between 1GHz and 1.2GHz and the 17" having a 1.2GHz or whatever. 200MHz ain't gonna kill me.
And maybe even hard drive capacities (but with each capable of BTO increases).
But leaving off some very necessary, pro-level features on something called a "PowerBook" (allegedly aimed at "pro" serious users) just irks me really bad for some reason.
I don't mind the iBook not having DVI out, spanning, SuperDrive, L3 cache, etc. because it's a different market and target audience. I'd buy one KNOWING I'm getting a "lesser" (but still amazing and quite capable) machine.
But anything with "Power" in its title should live up to its name/image.
In my world, the 12" PowerBook would simply be a miniaturized, 12" version of the 17" PowerBook, with perhaps 20GB less hard drive space, lower base RAM and perhaps even slightly less MHz. But that's IT.
The problem with DVI on the 12" is... well, where do you put it?
If you look at the left-hand side of the 12" model, a huge portion of it is covered in ports (which doubtlessly take up space on the inside). It's questionable as to whether or not DVI output would swallow up too much space.
If they could work it in, great, but I'm suspicious.
It's Apple. They've figured out (and solved) trickier things than this
"You gotta have a fan!"
"Oh yeah? Watch this..."
"Networking involves lots of cables..."
"Really?"
"You can't make a G4 in a small box shape..."
"Is that so?"
"You can't have a flat-screen all-in-one AND allow for screen adjustment"
"You think?"
"These slot-loading drives don't work well...I'm not sure."
"You don't say!"
"You can't make a laptop 1" thick!"
"Then what's this right here in my lap?"
"You'll never be able to carry more than 20-50 mp3 files with you at once"
"Excuse me?"
"These new flat displays are gorgeous, but you'll need three separate cables for power, USB and video"
"Learn these three little letters...".
"Towers are hard to get into and service...leave it to the pros."
"Shut up and hand me that DIMM and AirPort Card"
"Nobody could ever put ambient light sensors and illuminated keys on a computer!"
"Hit the switch, Goober"
I've just scratched the surface, on some of the things that sprung immediately to mind.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty confident they could figure out a way. Their track record over the past four years or so is pretty righteous, wouldn't we all agree?
People will always buy the more expensive Powerbooks simply to get the bigger screens even if the specs are the same as the 12".
actually, i love the 12" PB ... but as others have stated, you simply have to make too many compromises. the absence of the L3 cache is what kills me about the current machine.
MacBidouille's latest regarding WWDC and the 970. (Babel Fish translation)
Quote:
[ Rumour ] APPLE starts to raise the veil - Lionel - 05:51:53 - commercial large account and APPLE big shots in Europe, start to raise the veil on the WWDC. In short, they say to their customer that a new faster platform will arrive at the WWDC. Word 970 is only hardly marked.... Notice, they read us can be
Taligent, a joint venture of IBM, Apple Computer, and Hewlett-Packard, announced the release of its first product, an application to run on operating systems made by its three parent companies. The three companies created Taligent in 1991 in an attempt to beat back Microsoft's unrelenting dominance in operating systems. The companies hoped Taligent would create a separate operating system but quickly learned that customers did not actually want another operating system. Instead of launching a revolutionary new system, Taligent focused on creating object-oriented technology to be embedded in existing operating systems, making them easier to develop and modify programs.
i wonder who will be on the money with the predictions.
all i know is we're gonna have some good ish in the next few months!
i'm saving like crazy!
Yes it is a bit different. But the idea carries across just fine. Basically it sounds as though some Apple folks in Europe let slip to a major client, that something faster is coming at WWDC without actually mentioning the 970.
As to who will be "on the money"? No one.
But if I were a betting man, at this point in time I think my money would be on MacBidouille at 70-80%. Of course if they actually release a 970 Powerbook this early, which I am doubtful of, then I guess the nod would have to go to MacWhispers unless they actually have immediate availability of all PowerMac models following WWDC.
It is fun though, no matter what happens. Good things are coming, I am certain, but the timing remains the big unknown.
The problem with DVI on the 12" is... well, where do you put it?
If you look at the left-hand side of the 12" model, a huge portion of it is covered in ports (which doubtlessly take up space on the inside). It's questionable as to whether or not DVI output would swallow up too much space.
If they could work it in, great, but I'm suspicious.
A G4 stuffed into an 8" Cube with no fan...an ADC graphics card and slot load combo drive...umm, I think Apple can figure out a way to put a DVI on a 12" Powerbook. How bout this...no VGA, replace with DVI.
Wrong! 12" PB is just perfect machine for people, who travel a lot.
I don't think that was his point. If you need or want a powerbook with a 15" display, you will probably buy it regardless of the existence of a 12" powerbook with the same feature-set at a lower price.
I agree that the 12" PB is a good machine for a lot of people, but it's not exactly the "desktop replacement" a lot of people need. People will continue to buy 15" and 17" powerbooks even if they have the same specs as the 12".
But somehow I still believe that the 12" will continue to have lower processor speeds and lesser gfx-cards that its bigger siblings.
But somehow I still believe that the 12" will continue to have lower processor speeds and lesser gfx-cards that its bigger siblings.
i agree, i think a 12" Al powerbook is not that much cheaper to built than a 15" Al powerbook. there for the margins on a 15" are much bigger. so apple squeezes the 12" a little bit more to make their cashcow pb more atractive.
MacBidouille's latest regarding WWDC and the 970. (Babel Fish translation)
here is my version of the translation, although I may be stretching a colloquialism or two.
Quote:
[ Rumour ] APPLE starts to raise the veil - Lionel - 05:51:53
Commercial large accounts and APPLE big shots in Europe, have begun to raise the veil on the WWDC. In short, they are saying to their customers that a new faster platform will arrive at the WWDC. The word 970 is only whispered... (not mentioned?)
Note, it may be they read us
This ties in with the fact that IBM has consented to answer Hannibal's (Ars Technica founder) questions about the PPC970. I look forward to a third article on the subject.
Taligent. I've read the history of Apple a few times. I'm often staggered at the misteps. The hundreds of millions ploughed into Taligent with IBM (ironically...) The hundreds of millions poured into Newton. The colossal mistake of not licensing EARLIER...which cost them. Shakes head. Don't want to think about it.
That's the thing about Jobs. He's brought a clarity of vision back to Apple. (The Digital Hub concept had a whole computer industry falling over itself to reposition the computer from a 'sunset industry' to a 'fourth age'.) About what Apple IS and what it is NOT. It's probably been said elsewhere on these boards...but I think we wouldn't have the Apple we have today without Pepsi Cola CEOs, without Mhz problems, without Copland etc. S'funny, I got on board with Apple when Gil 'Nervous Grin' Amelio was doing the in/out rounds.
Which brings me to WWDC. I think we're on the verge of a new era for Apple. I think Panther and the 970 will finally have Apple positioned for growth. No guarantees. It's up to Apple. However, with abot 70-ish US stores circa the end of 2003...and a confused 64 bit picture in Wintel land...this is the best chance for Apple to strike at the heart of the enemy in years. It may not come again.
Let's see some advertising for Panther.
Let's see what Apple Software can do.
Let's see powerful AND competitive as well as stylish desktop kit.
But I wonder...is the true Trojan Horse not a Mac...but something that reaches beyond...the iPod and a Wintel iMusic 4/Store (by end of 2003.) Apple software on Wintel? Whatever next...
Let's see powerful AND competitive as well as stylish desktop kit.
But I wonder...is the true Trojan Horse not a Mac...but something that reaches beyond...the iPod and a Wintel iMusic 4/Store (by end of 2003.) Apple software on Wintel? Whatever next...
Lemon Bon Bon
I agree with you. Apple needs to do some HEAVY promoting of its products are anything what we are hoping that comes from WWDC. This is the one weak area of Apple that has me the most concerned. I think that if they spent some more money one Advertising, they would start to show growth (especially after WWDC).
As for the "Trojan Horse". I think it is more of a carrot and string thing.People bite into Windoze iTunes4... They like it, and start using it heavily. Then Apple shows another product, and another... Soon people will recognize Apple products for what they are: SUPERIOR
i agree, i think a 12" Al powerbook is not that much cheaper to built than a 15" Al powerbook. there for the margins on a 15" are much bigger. so apple squeezes the 12" a little bit more to make their cashcow pb more atractive.
The price difference should be only about screen size and the appropriately optimized graphics cards. That makes a big enough difference. CPU speed should only come in to play if the 12" is too small to disperse the heat of the high end chips. I do see that the 12" on par with the others would make alot of people try to use it as a desktop replacement...I would, but it may be that it would take the 15" or 17"ers to have the graphic chip to run a 20" Cinema display well; to get the most out of QE. And the number of 17" PB's that I've seen being used as desktops in design houses means that it already is taking thunder away from the PowerMacs and if you could span 3 screens from them, there would be another price seperation from the 12" that makes sense ... without having to hobble the 12" for no reason.
In one period around 1998 - 2000, it was clear that the RISC architecture of the G3/G4 was about double the inherent performance of the Pentium architecture, clock cycle per cycle. However, as the P-chips have continued to evolve, and the motherboard designers on the Wintel side have been aggressively optimizing their products to the newest available chips, and as Motorola has been swilling beer and choking on barbiturates, letting their chips languish in inattention, that gulf between the platforms has narrowed. Presently, it's only on heavily Altivec optimized applications that the G4 systems are perhaps 1.25 to 1.5 times as efficient per clock cycle as Pentium 4 based systems.
What it looks like with the new PPC 970 Macs is a return to the pure double-the-efficiency formula of yesteryear, on *non-Altivec optimized* software. With no FSB bottlenecks in the new 970-based systems to choke the data in and out of the Altivec registers, applications optimized for vector processing could be as much as 3 to 3.5 times faster on the 970, clock cycle per clock cycle as on a Pentium 4 system.
Toss in the idea of double or quad 970's and you begin to see the reason that Apple has been beating all of their engineering resources to death for the past year to get this IBM migration done and on the street."
First time I've read the 'full article' in the Macwhispers 'pricing' story.
I seem to recall the G3s weren't around THAT long (certainly not compared to the G4, heh...) before they were superceded in the Towers by the G4.
It kinda occured that the 970 might be the 'G3' to the 980 'G4'.
ie the 970 might not be that long in the tower line before moving on to the consumer line. A year?
With Prescott chasing down 5 gig in the next year or so...that would kind of make sense?
A 980...hot on the heels of the 970? Mid/Fall 2004? Early 2005? It would make sense to me that the 980 would be on an even more aggressive timetable than the 970...to build upon the success of the 970 and help give Apple growth.
Any fending off of the Wintel vice like grip on the cpu industry would surely benefit IBM's Ultimated postition? And help Apple on towards that 10%?
Macwhispers suggesting of Apple's engineering team busting a gut to get the whole line over to IBM makes perfect sense to me. Apple's sales are taking a desktop beating. eMac, iMac2, Tower. They're poor. There's no denying it. The numbers speak for themselves. Apple was selling more desktops in a smaller market place four years ago...
Apple should be an 8 billion dollar company. I believe they surely still have that infrastructure...and can be so again. They've got to forget the 'Cube' pricing mentality and go for growth and marketshare. Cheap as Chips from IBM and Apple should be able to maintain margins while lowering prices... Don't try and recoup the devel' costs in the first twelve months ala the Cube? Heh...
Side thought. Apple revamps entire line. 970 Workstation in a Cube? Oooh. Makes sense. I want one.
Comments
People would then simply buy based on screen size and MAYBE a slight clock speed difference. I wouldn't mind the 12" model being, say, 1GHz and the 15" having a choice between 1GHz and 1.2GHz and the 17" having a 1.2GHz or whatever. 200MHz ain't gonna kill me.
And maybe even hard drive capacities (but with each capable of BTO increases).
But leaving off some very necessary, pro-level features on something called a "PowerBook" (allegedly aimed at "pro" serious users) just irks me really bad for some reason.
I don't mind the iBook not having DVI out, spanning, SuperDrive, L3 cache, etc. because it's a different market and target audience. I'd buy one KNOWING I'm getting a "lesser" (but still amazing and quite capable) machine.
But anything with "Power" in its title should live up to its name/image.
In my world, the 12" PowerBook would simply be a miniaturized, 12" version of the 17" PowerBook, with perhaps 20GB less hard drive space, lower base RAM and perhaps even slightly less MHz. But that's IT.
If you look at the left-hand side of the 12" model, a huge portion of it is covered in ports (which doubtlessly take up space on the inside). It's questionable as to whether or not DVI output would swallow up too much space.
If they could work it in, great, but I'm suspicious.
"You gotta have a fan!"
"Oh yeah? Watch this..."
"Networking involves lots of cables..."
"Really?"
"You can't make a G4 in a small box shape..."
"Is that so?"
"You can't have a flat-screen all-in-one AND allow for screen adjustment"
"You think?"
"These slot-loading drives don't work well...I'm not sure."
"You don't say!"
"You can't make a laptop 1" thick!"
"Then what's this right here in my lap?"
"You'll never be able to carry more than 20-50 mp3 files with you at once"
"Excuse me?"
"These new flat displays are gorgeous, but you'll need three separate cables for power, USB and video"
"Learn these three little letters...".
"Towers are hard to get into and service...leave it to the pros."
"Shut up and hand me that DIMM and AirPort Card"
"Nobody could ever put ambient light sensors and illuminated keys on a computer!"
"Hit the switch, Goober"
I've just scratched the surface, on some of the things that sprung immediately to mind.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty confident they could figure out a way. Their track record over the past four years or so is pretty righteous, wouldn't we all agree?
Originally posted by jante99
People will always buy the more expensive Powerbooks simply to get the bigger screens even if the specs are the same as the 12".
actually, i love the 12" PB ... but as others have stated, you simply have to make too many compromises. the absence of the L3 cache is what kills me about the current machine.
i want a smaller version of the 15" PB.
na
[ Rumour ] APPLE starts to raise the veil - Lionel - 05:51:53 - commercial large account and APPLE big shots in Europe, start to raise the veil on the WWDC. In short, they say to their customer that a new faster platform will arrive at the WWDC. Word 970 is only hardly marked.... Notice, they read us can be
May 6 1995, Taligent releases software
Taligent, a joint venture of IBM, Apple Computer, and Hewlett-Packard, announced the release of its first product, an application to run on operating systems made by its three parent companies. The three companies created Taligent in 1991 in an attempt to beat back Microsoft's unrelenting dominance in operating systems. The companies hoped Taligent would create a separate operating system but quickly learned that customers did not actually want another operating system. Instead of launching a revolutionary new system, Taligent focused on creating object-oriented technology to be embedded in existing operating systems, making them easier to develop and modify programs.
Originally posted by pscates
"You can't make a laptop 1" thick!"
"Then what's this right here in my lap?"
LOL
Cool post mr. cates.
that translation is funny.
i wonder who will be on the money with the predictions.
all i know is we're gonna have some good ish in the next few months!
i'm saving like crazy!
Originally posted by whoami
Shaktai...
that translation is funny.
i wonder who will be on the money with the predictions.
all i know is we're gonna have some good ish in the next few months!
i'm saving like crazy!
Yes it is a bit different. But the idea carries across just fine. Basically it sounds as though some Apple folks in Europe let slip to a major client, that something faster is coming at WWDC without actually mentioning the 970.
As to who will be "on the money"? No one.
But if I were a betting man, at this point in time I think my money would be on MacBidouille at 70-80%. Of course if they actually release a 970 Powerbook this early, which I am doubtful of, then I guess the nod would have to go to MacWhispers unless they actually have immediate availability of all PowerMac models following WWDC.
It is fun though, no matter what happens. Good things are coming, I am certain, but the timing remains the big unknown.
Originally posted by Commodus
The problem with DVI on the 12" is... well, where do you put it?
If you look at the left-hand side of the 12" model, a huge portion of it is covered in ports (which doubtlessly take up space on the inside). It's questionable as to whether or not DVI output would swallow up too much space.
If they could work it in, great, but I'm suspicious.
A G4 stuffed into an 8" Cube with no fan...an ADC graphics card and slot load combo drive...umm, I think Apple can figure out a way to put a DVI on a 12" Powerbook. How bout this...no VGA, replace with DVI.
Originally posted by jante99
People will always buy the more expensive Powerbooks simply to get the bigger screens even if the specs are the same as the 12".
Wrong! 12" PB is just perfect machine for people, who travel a lot.
Originally posted by Stratosfear
Wrong! 12" PB is just perfect machine for people, who travel a lot.
I don't think that was his point. If you need or want a powerbook with a 15" display, you will probably buy it regardless of the existence of a 12" powerbook with the same feature-set at a lower price.
I agree that the 12" PB is a good machine for a lot of people, but it's not exactly the "desktop replacement" a lot of people need. People will continue to buy 15" and 17" powerbooks even if they have the same specs as the 12".
But somehow I still believe that the 12" will continue to have lower processor speeds and lesser gfx-cards that its bigger siblings.
Originally posted by NETROMac
But somehow I still believe that the 12" will continue to have lower processor speeds and lesser gfx-cards that its bigger siblings.
i agree, i think a 12" Al powerbook is not that much cheaper to built than a 15" Al powerbook. there for the margins on a 15" are much bigger. so apple squeezes the 12" a little bit more to make their cashcow pb more atractive.
Originally posted by Shaktai
MacBidouille's latest regarding WWDC and the 970. (Babel Fish translation)
here is my version of the translation, although I may be stretching a colloquialism or two.
[ Rumour ] APPLE starts to raise the veil - Lionel - 05:51:53
Commercial large accounts and APPLE big shots in Europe, have begun to raise the veil on the WWDC. In short, they are saying to their customers that a new faster platform will arrive at the WWDC. The word 970 is only whispered... (not mentioned?)
Note, it may be they read us
This ties in with the fact that IBM has consented to answer Hannibal's (Ars Technica founder) questions about the PPC970. I look forward to a third article on the subject.
That's the thing about Jobs. He's brought a clarity of vision back to Apple. (The Digital Hub concept had a whole computer industry falling over itself to reposition the computer from a 'sunset industry' to a 'fourth age'.) About what Apple IS and what it is NOT. It's probably been said elsewhere on these boards...but I think we wouldn't have the Apple we have today without Pepsi Cola CEOs, without Mhz problems, without Copland etc. S'funny, I got on board with Apple when Gil 'Nervous Grin' Amelio was doing the in/out rounds.
Which brings me to WWDC. I think we're on the verge of a new era for Apple. I think Panther and the 970 will finally have Apple positioned for growth. No guarantees. It's up to Apple. However, with abot 70-ish US stores circa the end of 2003...and a confused 64 bit picture in Wintel land...this is the best chance for Apple to strike at the heart of the enemy in years. It may not come again.
Let's see some advertising for Panther.
Let's see what Apple Software can do.
Let's see powerful AND competitive as well as stylish desktop kit.
But I wonder...is the true Trojan Horse not a Mac...but something that reaches beyond...the iPod and a Wintel iMusic 4/Store (by end of 2003.) Apple software on Wintel? Whatever next...
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Let's see some advertising for Panther.
Let's see what Apple Software can do.
Let's see powerful AND competitive as well as stylish desktop kit.
But I wonder...is the true Trojan Horse not a Mac...but something that reaches beyond...the iPod and a Wintel iMusic 4/Store (by end of 2003.) Apple software on Wintel? Whatever next...
Lemon Bon Bon
I agree with you. Apple needs to do some HEAVY promoting of its products are anything what we are hoping that comes from WWDC. This is the one weak area of Apple that has me the most concerned. I think that if they spent some more money one Advertising, they would start to show growth (especially after WWDC).
As for the "Trojan Horse". I think it is more of a carrot and string thing.People bite into Windoze iTunes4... They like it, and start using it heavily. Then Apple shows another product, and another... Soon people will recognize Apple products for what they are: SUPERIOR
That can only help spur sales of their product.
I agree. we have had switch, itunes/ipod, what's the campaign to promte the panther...
If the 970 specs are that good we need to bring back the snail commericals!!
Originally posted by gar
i agree, i think a 12" Al powerbook is not that much cheaper to built than a 15" Al powerbook. there for the margins on a 15" are much bigger. so apple squeezes the 12" a little bit more to make their cashcow pb more atractive.
The price difference should be only about screen size and the appropriately optimized graphics cards. That makes a big enough difference. CPU speed should only come in to play if the 12" is too small to disperse the heat of the high end chips. I do see that the 12" on par with the others would make alot of people try to use it as a desktop replacement...I would, but it may be that it would take the 15" or 17"ers to have the graphic chip to run a 20" Cinema display well; to get the most out of QE. And the number of 17" PB's that I've seen being used as desktops in design houses means that it already is taking thunder away from the PowerMacs and if you could span 3 screens from them, there would be another price seperation from the 12" that makes sense ... without having to hobble the 12" for no reason.
"Hi Mark,
In one period around 1998 - 2000, it was clear that the RISC architecture of the G3/G4 was about double the inherent performance of the Pentium architecture, clock cycle per cycle. However, as the P-chips have continued to evolve, and the motherboard designers on the Wintel side have been aggressively optimizing their products to the newest available chips, and as Motorola has been swilling beer and choking on barbiturates, letting their chips languish in inattention, that gulf between the platforms has narrowed. Presently, it's only on heavily Altivec optimized applications that the G4 systems are perhaps 1.25 to 1.5 times as efficient per clock cycle as Pentium 4 based systems.
What it looks like with the new PPC 970 Macs is a return to the pure double-the-efficiency formula of yesteryear, on *non-Altivec optimized* software. With no FSB bottlenecks in the new 970-based systems to choke the data in and out of the Altivec registers, applications optimized for vector processing could be as much as 3 to 3.5 times faster on the 970, clock cycle per clock cycle as on a Pentium 4 system.
Toss in the idea of double or quad 970's and you begin to see the reason that Apple has been beating all of their engineering resources to death for the past year to get this IBM migration done and on the street."
First time I've read the 'full article' in the Macwhispers 'pricing' story.
I seem to recall the G3s weren't around THAT long (certainly not compared to the G4, heh...) before they were superceded in the Towers by the G4.
It kinda occured that the 970 might be the 'G3' to the 980 'G4'.
ie the 970 might not be that long in the tower line before moving on to the consumer line. A year?
With Prescott chasing down 5 gig in the next year or so...that would kind of make sense?
A 980...hot on the heels of the 970? Mid/Fall 2004? Early 2005? It would make sense to me that the 980 would be on an even more aggressive timetable than the 970...to build upon the success of the 970 and help give Apple growth.
Any fending off of the Wintel vice like grip on the cpu industry would surely benefit IBM's Ultimated postition? And help Apple on towards that 10%?
Macwhispers suggesting of Apple's engineering team busting a gut to get the whole line over to IBM makes perfect sense to me. Apple's sales are taking a desktop beating. eMac, iMac2, Tower. They're poor. There's no denying it. The numbers speak for themselves. Apple was selling more desktops in a smaller market place four years ago...
Apple should be an 8 billion dollar company. I believe they surely still have that infrastructure...and can be so again. They've got to forget the 'Cube' pricing mentality and go for growth and marketshare. Cheap as Chips from IBM and Apple should be able to maintain margins while lowering prices... Don't try and recoup the devel' costs in the first twelve months ala the Cube? Heh...
Side thought. Apple revamps entire line. 970 Workstation in a Cube? Oooh. Makes sense. I want one.
Lemon Bon Bon (Pondering...)