Well now that I've seen it I can comment a little. My initial impressions:
1. A couple of the scenes should've been axed in favor or adding more dialog / context. I thought some of the Kung-fu action was filler. The fight with the guy that guards the Oracle was pretty pointless I thought; the whole thing was simply to justify the guard's comment of "you don't know someone until you fight them".
Also, the rage-dancing thing inter-mixed with the love scene was well done but kind of pointless I thought. I would rather have seen the two parts separated and have a distinct love scene and a distinct "how the people live" scene. I felt like I know what Zion looks like and how it operates a lot more than I know what it might be like to live there. One of the cool parts of the original film was the couple "daily grind" type scenes. Eating that oatmeal gruel crap at the table, Morpheus' apology in the cramped sleeping quarters after showing Neo "the truth", etc.
2. I like the twist that came with Agent Smith. It was totally not what I expected based on some previews and pictures I saw in articles from Wired and such (I tried not to read anything, just check out the images), but at the same time it ended up being like filler. What was the point of him being there, what was he trying to accomplish? These may be things revealed come November but if he has a very definite purpose it should've been made more clear somehow. It almost seemed like the multiple Smith thing was merely a vehicle to show a couple of bitch' "Neo against the world" type fights.
At one point I thought perhaps they would have to help each other in order to survive but the movie did not go in that direction. Also I was unclear on what happened to the guy he "replicated into" before taking the "phone exit" into Zion. I think it was the guy who cut his hand / was shown at the very end of the movie laying next to Neo...but again his intentions were not real clear. In one sense it seemed Smith is now one to fear the Matrix / being deleted, and in another it seemed like the guy he infiltrated somehow was the one to tip of the Sentinels that destroyed Zion. Those two things seem incompatible in my mind but there is probably something I missed.
3. The overall quality of dialog and plot progression was better than I anticipated, but too many plot "segments" were resolved through more Kung-fu type stuff than should've been the case. The fight scenes were definitely extremely well choregraphed and well put together, but too much icing can spoil a cake, ya know? Hopefully the third movie has a little bit less of that and a little more of some new type of conflict (physical or otherwise).
4. The Mangiovelli (sp?) was an interesting character, as was the fact that the Oracle was revealed to be not human, etc. Some interesting twists that kept the movie from falling apart IMO. The two white-faced, dread-locked villians were very well conjured / cast. Sort of like Darth Maul in the (first) Star Wars. I suspect we may see them again. Their lines were stupid but in general I thought they made very original villian prototypes.
5. The architect of the Matrix had WAY way too much shit to say for one scene. How the hell is anyone supposed to make sense of that / absorb it all in the first sitting. Bad script allocation there I'm afraid. The messages he was revealing to the audience should've either been more drawn out or simplified. I couldn't catch half of what the guy was saying because he said it all so damn fast and in no logical order it seemed. I'm sure I'll get it once I get teh DVD but damn...if they did it that way just because Reeves can't carry a dialog, then find other ways to carry the messages. That whole thing ended up being way more confusing than it was enlightening -- which I suspect was the whole point of the scene being there.
More later... I have to go do some home improvement work. Just call me "Al".
the architect makes the matrix. turns out that somoene like Neo always shows up within the matrix. this "the one" carries within them a bit of code that's necessary for the Matrix to function. for the Matrix to continue, the One has to voluntarily go back to the source, then the Matrix starts over.
the reason for Zion is that when the One is faced with a choice, he has to have another choice besides "die and go back to the source". so the machines created/allowed Zion. Zion is humanities hope, so here's what happens.
the city gets to grow under it's own steam. eventually "the one" is born within the matrix. when the one is born, the growth of Zion goes up astronomically. (hence the quote "zion has grown more in 6 months than in 6 years" after Neo shows up).
when this happens, the Matrix has run its course, and needs to be reset.
the Oracle shows up, places this false hope, all to direct "the one" back to the source, so it can start over.
so "the one" is told, "all of humanity dies, or you sacrifice yourself and you'll be allowed to recreate Zion"
all the past "ones" had chosen to save humanitiy. neo did not.
at least that's what i got out of it.
I haven't read the rest of this thread but I think you hit it on the head. The unanswered question : What did it mean when Neo stopped the machines in the real world? He said something was different and that he could feel them. Did he have a connection to the machines that allowed him to stop their functioning? Or is the real world another layer of the matrix?
AbsoluteIy a great movie! I hate cliff hangers!
Not really. It did what it was designed to do. I can't wait to find out what happens!
So in other words, it was the sixth Matrix and Neo was the Sixth "one"? And "the one" always has to be born inside because otherwise he would carry no code with him that allows him to do the things he does? I don't follow the line of logic where the Architect intentionally places "the one" into the system. Once he has his powerplants, why mess with anything? Since all Matrices after the first added in human suffering and the like, the "crops" wouldn't be lost as the first one supposedly was. Right?
Thus no one in the powerplants would be the wiser if no special code was implanted in them at birth....
I had the thought that Revolutions might end with Neo waking up from yet another dream...that everything we saw to that point, will be what he dreamt during a coma or something like that. My reason for wondering that is his ability to stop machines in the supposedly physical world. Unless the Wachowski brothers are going to lamely barrow "the force" from Star Wars or something similar, wouldn't it stand to reason that Neo could have only done what he did if the physical world was also a dream or otherwise not truly physical?
has anyone here seen the animatrix episodes? im confused by one thing. in the second rennasance part 2, the say that nukes had little effect on the machines, however an EMP will kill them in their tracks. now if i remember right, isnt there a rather large EMP when a nuke goes off?
Ok, a little food for thought. It's completely crazy, but something I think we've all neglected to think about:
We all assume that Bane has been "infected" by Smith. Why? Neo dreamt it. Of course, we all know that dreams are often just representations of what's going on in our real lives. And they often just cobble themselves together from differing threads of thought and ideas. They usually don't make complete sense. And they hardly, if ever, come out to be entirely true.
We all assume that because Neo dreamt that Bane was infected, he actually was. But Neo is "only human" and he could have been cobbling together several threads of his thought process in this one dream.
1) Smith poses a very real threat to "free" souls in the Matrix. So much so that he could even infect their life line.
2) Bane wishes he had taken the blue pill. Not uncommon a thought, I suspect.
3) Neo is concerned that Smith could somehow infect him and others. Especially those who have thoughts of the blue pill too often.
If the "infection" of Bane did not actually take place (just as Trinity's death did not occur), does it change our ideas about what is going on in Reloaded?
-t
ps - like I said, it's completely crazy and I don't believe it. I'm just trying to open up other avenues of thought on the movie....
Neo did dream it, but it really happened, I think that has something to do with His connectivity to the matrix.
I just watched the movie last night, there were no indications that Bane wished he took the blue pill. The first time you see him, with that other dude, when they download the Oracles message, is before he is infected and he seems eager to get that message to neo. The next time you see him, he has been infected by smith and is discontent and wants to kill neo.
As for the kung fu just being Filler....it was, for the most part, look at it this way, how do you get a message to people that otherwise wouldn't be interested? you give it to them in a medium that they will enjoy. The wachowski brothers realized that if they released some ridiculous little movie with no spectacular effects and it was all just talk and story line, no one would like it at all. but if they present it with big explosions, flying kicks, and special effects, people will go see it, many times. Then since they have created that standard, they now are expected to top their effects with each movie, in order to keep the masses happy.
The Asian dude(seraph) is going to play a bigger role in the next movie, I think, he is in the trailer for revolutions, so I would assume he will be elaborated on more. The purpose of the fight he had with neo, was to show people that he CAN kick ass, and also, to show that the oracle is no a helpless old lady(she has a bodyguard)
The One is a result of the imperfection in the Matrix. You could say that he's built into it in that it's built to give people choice, that adds an "imperfection" and "The One" is the result.
Your life is the sum is the remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. you are the eventuality of an anomoly which despite my sincerest efforts, i have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical percision.
The Architect would gladly get rid of The One from the equation if he could but he can't. "Choice" adds the imperfection and The One is the results. Without choice the matrix would fail.
the function of the one is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program. afterwhich you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals (16 female, 7 male), to rebuild zion. failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of zion, will ultimatly result in the extinction of the entire human race.
But the one has a function. The architect needs the one, the one needs the matrix. Without the matrix all of humanity will die. Without The One the matrix will fail.
...
I think in the next movie the matrix will be an "escalating probability of disaster". Hang on
Smith Neo
The One The Matrix
Zion The One
Humanity The Machines
How does Neo need Smith and Smith need Neo? I think we'll find out in the next one. Without each other they both die? Hum? Maybe each time The One is not perfectly reintegrated and it builds each time? If everything is a program, even cake, then The One is a generated program that needs to be reintegrated. The Matrix can't tell you who you are ... but it seems it can?
It seems the only point of the movie is to find a way to strike a better balance between the two? Stop the war? But if Zion is allowed to exist then The One never shows up at the Architect to be reintegrated. Matrix will then go crazy. The ONLY reason Zion is destroyed is to make The One show up. The Kung Fu guy with the Oracle confirms he's the one. Does that then trigger the final attack on Zion? I think so.
Maybe they can strike a deal where Zion is allowed to Exist and The One will show up at the Architect?
Well now that I've seen it I can comment a little. My initial impressions:
1. A couple of the scenes should've been axed in favor or adding more dialog / context. I thought some of the Kung-fu action was filler. The fight with the guy that guards the Oracle was pretty pointless I thought; the whole thing was simply to justify the guard's comment of "you don't know someone until you fight them".
I don't know if you saw the trailer at the end of the credits, but that guy is in Matrix : Revolutions. I caught a glimse of him hiding behind a pillar with guns in both hands. The pillar was the same style pillar as acouple other scenes from the trailer were in, so I'm thinking that he is in an important fight scene in the next movie. This movie and that scene were to introduce him to the audience and establish that he knows how to fight and his calibur of skill. At least that's my opinion. I agree that it would have been useless, if he was a character that was never seen again in the Matrix.
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2. I like the twist that came with Agent Smith. It was totally not what I expected based on some previews and pictures I saw in articles from Wired and such (I tried not to read anything, just check out the images), but at the same time it ended up being like filler. What was the point of him being there, what was he trying to accomplish? These may be things revealed come November but if he has a very definite purpose it should've been made more clear somehow. It almost seemed like the multiple Smith thing was merely a vehicle to show a couple of bitch' "Neo against the world" type fights.
The way that I see the dynamic of the movie going is that Smith is the one thing that is out of place (aside from the debate about whether previous 'the one's has love interests) in this 'iteration' of the matrix. The first movie was to have Neo break free, the second is for him to realize the machines' 'true' plan (also up for debate), and Smith was there to step in at certain points and disrupt things. Which is what he is doing to the 'overall' plan of the machines to start the next 'iteration' of the matrix. I feel that this role will come to an apex in the next movie, but that the role he played in this movie was crucial as well. The point of not telling us his purpose is that we are not supposed to know his purpose yet. And I venture the guess that he don't reallyhave a purpose beyond his own selfish interests (I'm talking in terms of purpose of the machines, not in purpose of storyline). From the looks of the preview for Revolutions, it looks like Neo defeating Smith will take on large significance in the next movie.
As for the 'it was just there to show off' part, it was also there to show off Smith's abilities. As well as showcase Neo's abilities. Remember that this is a movie and not a book. This fight scene is there to visually show off a lot of things about their abilities. In a book, you could just have characters having flashbacks to other great things that he has done or something. We all know that Neo is the one, but even he was having trouble with so many Smiths... This was also displayed for us visually.
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At one point I thought perhaps they would have to help each other in order to survive but the movie did not go in that direction. Also I was unclear on what happened to the guy he "replicated into" before taking the "phone exit" into Zion. I think it was the guy who cut his hand / was shown at the very end of the movie laying next to Neo...but again his intentions were not real clear. In one sense it seemed Smith is now one to fear the Matrix / being deleted, and in another it seemed like the guy he infiltrated somehow was the one to tip of the Sentinels that destroyed Zion. Those two things seem incompatible in my mind but there is probably something I missed.
The Sentinals didn't destroy Zion yet. Smith did not tip them off to destroy Zion. We are led to believe that the infected 'Bane' (the guy that Smith assimilated), was the one that set off an EMP too early causing 15 ships to be down instantly. This was all part of the counter-attack against the sentinals that were digging. This did not happen in Zion at all. At the end of Matrix : Reloaded, they are still digging towards Zion. Yes, Smith fears deletion, but he also hates the humans. Remember his speech to Morpheus in the first movie.
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3. The overall quality of dialog and plot progression was better than I anticipated, but too many plot "segments" were resolved through more Kung-fu type stuff than should've been the case. The fight scenes were definitely extremely well choregraphed and well put together, but too much icing can spoil a cake, ya know? Hopefully the third movie has a little bit less of that and a little more of some new type of conflict (physical or otherwise).
I thought that the problem was transition and that some of the dialog was rather hard to swallow in a single gulp. Like the architect's speech to Neo. I had to really concentrate on what he was saying to digest it all the first time I saw it, and even the second time too.
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5. The architect of the Matrix had WAY way too much shit to say for one scene. How the hell is anyone supposed to make sense of that / absorb it all in the first sitting. Bad script allocation there I'm afraid. The messages he was revealing to the audience should've either been more drawn out or simplified. I couldn't catch half of what the guy was saying because he said it all so damn fast and in no logical order it seemed. I'm sure I'll get it once I get teh DVD but damn...if they did it that way just because Reeves can't carry a dialog, then find other ways to carry the messages. That whole thing ended up being way more confusing than it was enlightening -- which I suspect was the whole point of the scene being there.
More later... I have to go do some home improvement work. Just call me "Al".
I wholeheartedly agree. Just to grasp what he was saying I had to quickly go from 'enjoying the movie' mode to 'listening intently because I will be graded on what my professor says' mode. That's not something that one should really have to do at a movie.
Neo did dream it, but it really happened, I think that has something to do with His connectivity to the matrix.
I just watched the movie last night, there were no indications that Bane wished he took the blue pill. The first time you see him, with that other dude, when they download the Oracles message, is before he is infected and he seems eager to get that message to neo. The next time you see him, he has been infected by smith and is discontent and wants to kill neo.
How do we know it really happened? That's my point. We assume that it happened because Neo dreamt it. We are infering that all his dreams actually happen because the ones we see seem to have happened. Keep in mind, though, that there is a difference between his dream of Trinity falling and Bane bringing Smith out of the Matrix. In the former, the entire content of the dream is contained within the Matrix. In the latter, it is not.
We know nothing about Bane at all. Except that he reminds me of Cipher, I don't know him from Adam, really. Just keep an open mind and see what we can come up with.
So in other words, it was the sixth Matrix and Neo was the Sixth "one"?
Seems that like everyone you didn't digest the architect's speech the first time through. :-) Don't worry, most people are in the same boat.
Neo is the sixth 'the one', if you want to believe the architect, but that's another debate altogether. It is not the 'sixth matrix' however. From what the architect says this is the second matrix. but it will be the sixth iteration.
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And "the one" always has to be born inside because otherwise he would carry no code with him that allows him to do the things he does? I don't follow the line of logic where the Architect intentionally places "the one" into the system. Once he has his powerplants, why mess with anything? Since all Matrices after the first added in human suffering and the like, the "crops" wouldn't be lost as the first one supposedly was. Right?
Think of the Matrix like a large equation, just like the architect referred to it as. Neo is the remainder, so to speak. Like a 'perfect' matrix would have two number divided be each other with a remainder of zero, but they can't perfect the equation far enough to get there so Neo is the remainder. That is a highly simplified version of it, but I hope that gives you a sort of understanding of it.
The second Matrix is not perfect as you say it is. Only 99% of humans accept their reality. There is 1% that don't. This is because giving humans the 'choice' to accept their reality of not was the only way to make the matrix work. Granted, this choice is only on a sub-conscious level. Therefore they have the option to reject instead of accept, though only 1% do. There are no definite answers to questions like 'why not just kill those that don't accept and liquify their bodies to be fed back to the rest' ... these are all questions we are debating.
We all assume that Bane has been "infected" by Smith. Why? Neo dreamt it. ...
Oh shit you're right. That part was a dream. But Neo dreamt that Trinity get's it and she does. So I think we can accept that it's real, Smith infecting Bane.
I still don't get how Smith fits in? Seems like he's not needed for the Matrix/The One/Zion to work.
I still don't get how Smith fits in? Seems like he's not needed for the Matrix/The One/Zion to work.
Smith is now a rogue program. No longer connected to the Matrix the way he once was. I think that he's going to provide a problem down the road for the Matrix itself because previous incarnations did not seem to have such a destructive program. I think that he's the key to all of this.
Think of the emotion he expressed when Neo saw him for the first time in this movie. All this talk of "want" and "hate." Yes, he had some emotion in the first movie as well (The "I hate this place. It's the smell." scene with Morpheus), but this time it was different. The emotion was really different.
I think that Smith is like that intuitive program the Architect describes at the end. He's not the original, but his behavior is going to be erratic enough to cause many more remainders in the equation. We'll see. But there's no doubt he's not something the Architect hasn't had to deal with before.
I think Smith was created for a reason. By who? I don't know. I think by Neo or the Oracle. Neo did something to Smith but Smith was an odd ball to begin with. But it seems he's been there since the start of the Matrix but doesn't know about The One? Maybe he wasn't there from the start. Maybe the agents get reloaded each time? He wants to destroy Zion in the first movie. Why? To cause The One to find the architect but he doesn't know that. That's his purpose. So hummmm this time around ? I don't know what's going on.
Maybe the Oracle found a way to allow humanity and machines to exist without The War and she's doing something to make that happen? Or maybe this was the plan from the start?
Cause and effect. What is the purpose of Smith. What caused him and what effect will he have. Why is he there outside the control of the system?
The more I think about it, the more I realize that Smith is Neo's foil. I know, logical conclusion. But bear with me.... Neo is the One. Smith is many. Smith is also the most common last name in the US (I think). But let's step away from the foil argument for a moment and draw upon some comic book themes. (This is from the explanation of superheroes and anti-heroes from Unbreakable.) Both the hero and anti-hero share a common "weakness." In this case, it's emotion. The Architect has the look of a captain of a ship that has too many holes to plug. Emotion has been entered into the equation and he thinks he's got it licked because he thinks that Neo is the only one whose emotion can ultimately play a part in the equation. He's wrong and Smith is going to be the Matrix's undoing.
Maybe Neo unbalanced the equation enough that Smith's formula is going also producing remainders. I dunno. The point is, the Architect isn't as all-knowing as he makes himself out to be. Maybe that's why he talks so much. Some people like to hear themselves talk and they talk more when they are nervous or unsure about something.
Scott, I think your earlier assertion is incorrect. I don't have the time now but I believe the Architect himself asserts that the "second Matrix also failed". I believe the 2-6 matrices are all based on the same "imperfect world" based on "human grotesqueries", but it seems like it is somehow regenerated / upgraded / whatever the hell you want to call it each time "the one" has to make their choice. It's like the matrix itself has a life cycle that only a few players are even aware of (Agents included).
I still think the Rage scene was stupid but after reading the commentary from that one link and thinking about things some more, this movie has a fair amount of substance to it I hadn't even noticed. That in itself can be considered a flaw IMO, since noticing the substance of a movie is kind of the whole point, right? That is, the problem is not the content but the way in which it is obscured. Although I think the (ahem) Merovingian thing is pretty clever based on the historical significance of the name, etc. Also seems parts of the first Matrix are being explained in certain regards but I still haven't digested half of this stuff yet. Gonna take some time, which I don't have much of so November should suit my schedule about perfect.
Alas nothing good comes easily, so let us hope that's how it will end with the third installment. That all will be revealed, etc.
Comments
I agree with your assessment, though. I liked Reloaded, except for the fact that it's really only half a movie.
1. A couple of the scenes should've been axed in favor or adding more dialog / context. I thought some of the Kung-fu action was filler. The fight with the guy that guards the Oracle was pretty pointless I thought; the whole thing was simply to justify the guard's comment of "you don't know someone until you fight them".
Also, the rage-dancing thing inter-mixed with the love scene was well done but kind of pointless I thought. I would rather have seen the two parts separated and have a distinct love scene and a distinct "how the people live" scene. I felt like I know what Zion looks like and how it operates a lot more than I know what it might be like to live there. One of the cool parts of the original film was the couple "daily grind" type scenes. Eating that oatmeal gruel crap at the table, Morpheus' apology in the cramped sleeping quarters after showing Neo "the truth", etc.
2. I like the twist that came with Agent Smith. It was totally not what I expected based on some previews and pictures I saw in articles from Wired and such (I tried not to read anything, just check out the images), but at the same time it ended up being like filler. What was the point of him being there, what was he trying to accomplish? These may be things revealed come November but if he has a very definite purpose it should've been made more clear somehow. It almost seemed like the multiple Smith thing was merely a vehicle to show a couple of bitch' "Neo against the world" type fights.
At one point I thought perhaps they would have to help each other in order to survive but the movie did not go in that direction. Also I was unclear on what happened to the guy he "replicated into" before taking the "phone exit" into Zion. I think it was the guy who cut his hand / was shown at the very end of the movie laying next to Neo...but again his intentions were not real clear. In one sense it seemed Smith is now one to fear the Matrix / being deleted, and in another it seemed like the guy he infiltrated somehow was the one to tip of the Sentinels that destroyed Zion. Those two things seem incompatible in my mind but there is probably something I missed.
3. The overall quality of dialog and plot progression was better than I anticipated, but too many plot "segments" were resolved through more Kung-fu type stuff than should've been the case. The fight scenes were definitely extremely well choregraphed and well put together, but too much icing can spoil a cake, ya know? Hopefully the third movie has a little bit less of that and a little more of some new type of conflict (physical or otherwise).
4. The Mangiovelli (sp?) was an interesting character, as was the fact that the Oracle was revealed to be not human, etc. Some interesting twists that kept the movie from falling apart IMO. The two white-faced, dread-locked villians were very well conjured / cast. Sort of like Darth Maul in the (first) Star Wars. I suspect we may see them again. Their lines were stupid but in general I thought they made very original villian prototypes.
5. The architect of the Matrix had WAY way too much shit to say for one scene. How the hell is anyone supposed to make sense of that / absorb it all in the first sitting. Bad script allocation there I'm afraid. The messages he was revealing to the audience should've either been more drawn out or simplified. I couldn't catch half of what the guy was saying because he said it all so damn fast and in no logical order it seemed. I'm sure I'll get it once I get teh DVD but damn...if they did it that way just because Reeves can't carry a dialog, then find other ways to carry the messages. That whole thing ended up being way more confusing than it was enlightening -- which I suspect was the whole point of the scene being there.
More later... I have to go do some home improvement work. Just call me "Al".
Originally posted by alcimedes
ok, my understanding of this is the following.
the architect makes the matrix. turns out that somoene like Neo always shows up within the matrix. this "the one" carries within them a bit of code that's necessary for the Matrix to function. for the Matrix to continue, the One has to voluntarily go back to the source, then the Matrix starts over.
the reason for Zion is that when the One is faced with a choice, he has to have another choice besides "die and go back to the source". so the machines created/allowed Zion. Zion is humanities hope, so here's what happens.
the city gets to grow under it's own steam. eventually "the one" is born within the matrix. when the one is born, the growth of Zion goes up astronomically. (hence the quote "zion has grown more in 6 months than in 6 years" after Neo shows up).
when this happens, the Matrix has run its course, and needs to be reset.
the Oracle shows up, places this false hope, all to direct "the one" back to the source, so it can start over.
so "the one" is told, "all of humanity dies, or you sacrifice yourself and you'll be allowed to recreate Zion"
all the past "ones" had chosen to save humanitiy. neo did not.
at least that's what i got out of it.
I haven't read the rest of this thread but I think you hit it on the head. The unanswered question : What did it mean when Neo stopped the machines in the real world? He said something was different and that he could feel them. Did he have a connection to the machines that allowed him to stop their functioning? Or is the real world another layer of the matrix?
AbsoluteIy a great movie! I hate cliff hangers!
Not really. It did what it was designed to do. I can't wait to find out what happens!
Thus no one in the powerplants would be the wiser if no special code was implanted in them at birth....
I had the thought that Revolutions might end with Neo waking up from yet another dream...that everything we saw to that point, will be what he dreamt during a coma or something like that. My reason for wondering that is his ability to stop machines in the supposedly physical world. Unless the Wachowski brothers are going to lamely barrow "the force" from Star Wars or something similar, wouldn't it stand to reason that Neo could have only done what he did if the physical world was also a dream or otherwise not truly physical?
i still think the third matrix is going to suck after seeing the second.
think expectations for starwars episode 2 after seeing starwars episode 1.
Originally posted by Moogs
So in other words, it was the sixth Matrix and Neo was the Sixth "one"? ...
The Matrix is not recreated each time! There has only been two. The one that didn't work and the "current" one.
We all assume that Bane has been "infected" by Smith. Why? Neo dreamt it. Of course, we all know that dreams are often just representations of what's going on in our real lives. And they often just cobble themselves together from differing threads of thought and ideas. They usually don't make complete sense. And they hardly, if ever, come out to be entirely true.
We all assume that because Neo dreamt that Bane was infected, he actually was. But Neo is "only human" and he could have been cobbling together several threads of his thought process in this one dream.
1) Smith poses a very real threat to "free" souls in the Matrix. So much so that he could even infect their life line.
2) Bane wishes he had taken the blue pill. Not uncommon a thought, I suspect.
3) Neo is concerned that Smith could somehow infect him and others. Especially those who have thoughts of the blue pill too often.
If the "infection" of Bane did not actually take place (just as Trinity's death did not occur), does it change our ideas about what is going on in Reloaded?
-t
ps - like I said, it's completely crazy and I don't believe it. I'm just trying to open up other avenues of thought on the movie....
I just watched the movie last night, there were no indications that Bane wished he took the blue pill. The first time you see him, with that other dude, when they download the Oracles message, is before he is infected and he seems eager to get that message to neo. The next time you see him, he has been infected by smith and is discontent and wants to kill neo.
As for the kung fu just being Filler....it was, for the most part, look at it this way, how do you get a message to people that otherwise wouldn't be interested? you give it to them in a medium that they will enjoy. The wachowski brothers realized that if they released some ridiculous little movie with no spectacular effects and it was all just talk and story line, no one would like it at all. but if they present it with big explosions, flying kicks, and special effects, people will go see it, many times. Then since they have created that standard, they now are expected to top their effects with each movie, in order to keep the masses happy.
The Asian dude(seraph) is going to play a bigger role in the next movie, I think, he is in the trailer for revolutions, so I would assume he will be elaborated on more. The purpose of the fight he had with neo, was to show people that he CAN kick ass, and also, to show that the oracle is no a helpless old lady(she has a bodyguard)
Your life is the sum is the remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. you are the eventuality of an anomoly which despite my sincerest efforts, i have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical percision.
The Architect would gladly get rid of The One from the equation if he could but he can't. "Choice" adds the imperfection and The One is the results. Without choice the matrix would fail.
the function of the one is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program. afterwhich you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals (16 female, 7 male), to rebuild zion. failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of zion, will ultimatly result in the extinction of the entire human race.
But the one has a function. The architect needs the one, the one needs the matrix. Without the matrix all of humanity will die. Without The One the matrix will fail.
...
I think in the next movie the matrix will be an "escalating probability of disaster". Hang on
Smith Neo
The One The Matrix
Zion The One
Humanity The Machines
How does Neo need Smith and Smith need Neo? I think we'll find out in the next one. Without each other they both die? Hum? Maybe each time The One is not perfectly reintegrated and it builds each time? If everything is a program, even cake, then The One is a generated program that needs to be reintegrated. The Matrix can't tell you who you are ... but it seems it can?
It seems the only point of the movie is to find a way to strike a better balance between the two? Stop the war? But if Zion is allowed to exist then The One never shows up at the Architect to be reintegrated. Matrix will then go crazy. The ONLY reason Zion is destroyed is to make The One show up. The Kung Fu guy with the Oracle confirms he's the one. Does that then trigger the final attack on Zion? I think so.
Maybe they can strike a deal where Zion is allowed to Exist and The One will show up at the Architect?
Originally posted by Moogs
Well now that I've seen it I can comment a little. My initial impressions:
1. A couple of the scenes should've been axed in favor or adding more dialog / context. I thought some of the Kung-fu action was filler. The fight with the guy that guards the Oracle was pretty pointless I thought; the whole thing was simply to justify the guard's comment of "you don't know someone until you fight them".
I don't know if you saw the trailer at the end of the credits, but that guy is in Matrix : Revolutions. I caught a glimse of him hiding behind a pillar with guns in both hands. The pillar was the same style pillar as acouple other scenes from the trailer were in, so I'm thinking that he is in an important fight scene in the next movie. This movie and that scene were to introduce him to the audience and establish that he knows how to fight and his calibur of skill. At least that's my opinion. I agree that it would have been useless, if he was a character that was never seen again in the Matrix.
2. I like the twist that came with Agent Smith. It was totally not what I expected based on some previews and pictures I saw in articles from Wired and such (I tried not to read anything, just check out the images), but at the same time it ended up being like filler. What was the point of him being there, what was he trying to accomplish? These may be things revealed come November but if he has a very definite purpose it should've been made more clear somehow. It almost seemed like the multiple Smith thing was merely a vehicle to show a couple of bitch' "Neo against the world" type fights.
The way that I see the dynamic of the movie going is that Smith is the one thing that is out of place (aside from the debate about whether previous 'the one's has love interests) in this 'iteration' of the matrix. The first movie was to have Neo break free, the second is for him to realize the machines' 'true' plan (also up for debate), and Smith was there to step in at certain points and disrupt things. Which is what he is doing to the 'overall' plan of the machines to start the next 'iteration' of the matrix. I feel that this role will come to an apex in the next movie, but that the role he played in this movie was crucial as well. The point of not telling us his purpose is that we are not supposed to know his purpose yet. And I venture the guess that he don't reallyhave a purpose beyond his own selfish interests (I'm talking in terms of purpose of the machines, not in purpose of storyline). From the looks of the preview for Revolutions, it looks like Neo defeating Smith will take on large significance in the next movie.
As for the 'it was just there to show off' part, it was also there to show off Smith's abilities. As well as showcase Neo's abilities. Remember that this is a movie and not a book. This fight scene is there to visually show off a lot of things about their abilities. In a book, you could just have characters having flashbacks to other great things that he has done or something. We all know that Neo is the one, but even he was having trouble with so many Smiths... This was also displayed for us visually.
At one point I thought perhaps they would have to help each other in order to survive but the movie did not go in that direction. Also I was unclear on what happened to the guy he "replicated into" before taking the "phone exit" into Zion. I think it was the guy who cut his hand / was shown at the very end of the movie laying next to Neo...but again his intentions were not real clear. In one sense it seemed Smith is now one to fear the Matrix / being deleted, and in another it seemed like the guy he infiltrated somehow was the one to tip of the Sentinels that destroyed Zion. Those two things seem incompatible in my mind but there is probably something I missed.
The Sentinals didn't destroy Zion yet. Smith did not tip them off to destroy Zion. We are led to believe that the infected 'Bane' (the guy that Smith assimilated), was the one that set off an EMP too early causing 15 ships to be down instantly. This was all part of the counter-attack against the sentinals that were digging. This did not happen in Zion at all. At the end of Matrix : Reloaded, they are still digging towards Zion. Yes, Smith fears deletion, but he also hates the humans. Remember his speech to Morpheus in the first movie.
3. The overall quality of dialog and plot progression was better than I anticipated, but too many plot "segments" were resolved through more Kung-fu type stuff than should've been the case. The fight scenes were definitely extremely well choregraphed and well put together, but too much icing can spoil a cake, ya know? Hopefully the third movie has a little bit less of that and a little more of some new type of conflict (physical or otherwise).
I thought that the problem was transition and that some of the dialog was rather hard to swallow in a single gulp. Like the architect's speech to Neo. I had to really concentrate on what he was saying to digest it all the first time I saw it, and even the second time too.
5. The architect of the Matrix had WAY way too much shit to say for one scene. How the hell is anyone supposed to make sense of that / absorb it all in the first sitting. Bad script allocation there I'm afraid. The messages he was revealing to the audience should've either been more drawn out or simplified. I couldn't catch half of what the guy was saying because he said it all so damn fast and in no logical order it seemed. I'm sure I'll get it once I get teh DVD but damn...if they did it that way just because Reeves can't carry a dialog, then find other ways to carry the messages. That whole thing ended up being way more confusing than it was enlightening -- which I suspect was the whole point of the scene being there.
More later... I have to go do some home improvement work. Just call me "Al".
I wholeheartedly agree. Just to grasp what he was saying I had to quickly go from 'enjoying the movie' mode to 'listening intently because I will be graded on what my professor says' mode. That's not something that one should really have to do at a movie.
Originally posted by Wrong Robust
Neo did dream it, but it really happened, I think that has something to do with His connectivity to the matrix.
I just watched the movie last night, there were no indications that Bane wished he took the blue pill. The first time you see him, with that other dude, when they download the Oracles message, is before he is infected and he seems eager to get that message to neo. The next time you see him, he has been infected by smith and is discontent and wants to kill neo.
How do we know it really happened? That's my point. We assume that it happened because Neo dreamt it. We are infering that all his dreams actually happen because the ones we see seem to have happened. Keep in mind, though, that there is a difference between his dream of Trinity falling and Bane bringing Smith out of the Matrix. In the former, the entire content of the dream is contained within the Matrix. In the latter, it is not.
We know nothing about Bane at all. Except that he reminds me of Cipher, I don't know him from Adam, really. Just keep an open mind and see what we can come up with.
Originally posted by Moogs
So in other words, it was the sixth Matrix and Neo was the Sixth "one"?
Seems that like everyone you didn't digest the architect's speech the first time through. :-) Don't worry, most people are in the same boat.
Neo is the sixth 'the one', if you want to believe the architect, but that's another debate altogether. It is not the 'sixth matrix' however. From what the architect says this is the second matrix. but it will be the sixth iteration.
And "the one" always has to be born inside because otherwise he would carry no code with him that allows him to do the things he does? I don't follow the line of logic where the Architect intentionally places "the one" into the system. Once he has his powerplants, why mess with anything? Since all Matrices after the first added in human suffering and the like, the "crops" wouldn't be lost as the first one supposedly was. Right?
Think of the Matrix like a large equation, just like the architect referred to it as. Neo is the remainder, so to speak. Like a 'perfect' matrix would have two number divided be each other with a remainder of zero, but they can't perfect the equation far enough to get there so Neo is the remainder. That is a highly simplified version of it, but I hope that gives you a sort of understanding of it.
The second Matrix is not perfect as you say it is. Only 99% of humans accept their reality. There is 1% that don't. This is because giving humans the 'choice' to accept their reality of not was the only way to make the matrix work. Granted, this choice is only on a sub-conscious level. Therefore they have the option to reject instead of accept, though only 1% do. There are no definite answers to questions like 'why not just kill those that don't accept and liquify their bodies to be fed back to the rest' ... these are all questions we are debating.
Originally posted by torifile
..
We all assume that Bane has been "infected" by Smith. Why? Neo dreamt it. ...
Oh shit you're right. That part was a dream. But Neo dreamt that Trinity get's it and she does. So I think we can accept that it's real, Smith infecting Bane.
I still don't get how Smith fits in? Seems like he's not needed for the Matrix/The One/Zion to work.
Originally posted by Scott
I still don't get how Smith fits in? Seems like he's not needed for the Matrix/The One/Zion to work.
Smith is now a rogue program. No longer connected to the Matrix the way he once was. I think that he's going to provide a problem down the road for the Matrix itself because previous incarnations did not seem to have such a destructive program. I think that he's the key to all of this.
Think of the emotion he expressed when Neo saw him for the first time in this movie. All this talk of "want" and "hate." Yes, he had some emotion in the first movie as well (The "I hate this place. It's the smell." scene with Morpheus), but this time it was different. The emotion was really different.
I think that Smith is like that intuitive program the Architect describes at the end. He's not the original, but his behavior is going to be erratic enough to cause many more remainders in the equation. We'll see. But there's no doubt he's not something the Architect hasn't had to deal with before.
I think Smith was created for a reason. By who? I don't know. I think by Neo or the Oracle. Neo did something to Smith but Smith was an odd ball to begin with. But it seems he's been there since the start of the Matrix but doesn't know about The One? Maybe he wasn't there from the start. Maybe the agents get reloaded each time? He wants to destroy Zion in the first movie. Why? To cause The One to find the architect but he doesn't know that. That's his purpose. So hummmm this time around ? I don't know what's going on.
Maybe the Oracle found a way to allow humanity and machines to exist without The War and she's doing something to make that happen? Or maybe this was the plan from the start?
Cause and effect. What is the purpose of Smith. What caused him and what effect will he have. Why is he there outside the control of the system?
Maybe Neo unbalanced the equation enough that Smith's formula is going also producing remainders. I dunno. The point is, the Architect isn't as all-knowing as he makes himself out to be. Maybe that's why he talks so much. Some people like to hear themselves talk and they talk more when they are nervous or unsure about something.
Bah, I'm just babbling now. See what I mean??
It's late....
Scott, I think your earlier assertion is incorrect. I don't have the time now but I believe the Architect himself asserts that the "second Matrix also failed". I believe the 2-6 matrices are all based on the same "imperfect world" based on "human grotesqueries", but it seems like it is somehow regenerated / upgraded / whatever the hell you want to call it each time "the one" has to make their choice. It's like the matrix itself has a life cycle that only a few players are even aware of (Agents included).
I still think the Rage scene was stupid but after reading the commentary from that one link and thinking about things some more, this movie has a fair amount of substance to it I hadn't even noticed. That in itself can be considered a flaw IMO, since noticing the substance of a movie is kind of the whole point, right? That is, the problem is not the content but the way in which it is obscured. Although I think the (ahem) Merovingian thing is pretty clever based on the historical significance of the name, etc. Also seems parts of the first Matrix are being explained in certain regards but I still haven't digested half of this stuff yet. Gonna take some time, which I don't have much of so November should suit my schedule about perfect.
Alas nothing good comes easily, so let us hope that's how it will end with the third installment. That all will be revealed, etc.