i think the reason people were asking for more action and less talk is that in this specific case, the action was considerably better than the ****tastic dialogue.
Gambit, I love you man, you summed up all my feelings about the movie, thus saving my poor fingers from typing
Seriously, I think most people are dissapointed because the movie does require thinking if you want to understand it, and most people these days have an aversion to using their minds.
I don't believe Tank was killed with the Osiris, and if he WAS then there is a plot hole because Link's wife(tank and dozer's sister) mentioned how she "lost two brothers to that ship[nebuchadnezar]"
Another great thing about the whole trilogy is that to get all the answers you really should watch the animatrix, and play the video game and such and such, but at the same time, the movies will satisfy the most pressing questions, so you don't HAVE to.
The dialogue was better than the first, they used more big words, and they had more elegant explanations and talks. But at the same time, a lot of the acting was to.....dry.
The scene when the various captains are meeting(in the beginning, when they talk about hte osiris) that is one of the worst scenes in the movie, why do all these cats have the same residual self-image? I guess that's their uniform or something. I don't know, it just looked really really corny seeing a dozen guys all dressed in expensive designer leather with shiny ties and thin glasses.
Neo was much better in this movie, simply because, while he was still a bumbling numb-nut, he also recognized how easy he could crush any opposition, which in turn lead to him just being confused, but not worried.
Tank "died" because the Actor playing him and the Producers couldn't agree on a contract. He wanted more money, they didn't want to put out...or something along those lines.
Tank "died" because the Actor playing him and the Producers couldn't agree on a contract. He wanted more money, they didn't want to put out...or something along those lines.
I'm glad that somebody thought of some possibly reasons for Neo being able to stop the machines besides the Matrix-in-a-Matrix idea, because it sounded very possible and I really didn't want to think they'd do that. It's quite possible that Neo somehow became in touch with the machine world, because when they were running and he stopped and turned around, he said "I can feel them", implying that he could be a part of the same. I went and watched The Second Renaissance part one, and got a feeling of the plot being the love child of A.I. : Artificial Intelligence (the whole robots having feelings) and X-Men (the connection with Senator Kelly trying to segregate and kill the mutants, more the comics not the movie).
But one thing I still want to know, what was with that guy (the same guy that was on the table next to Trinity at the end) cutting his hand open before shaking Neo's hand?
If you knew this, then why do you really care what happened to him? Obviously they just had to make something up to explain why he wasn't there. Its pointless to even speculate, no actor = no character. Big whoop.
But one thing I still want to know, what was with that guy (the same guy that was on the table next to Trinity at the end) cutting his hand open before shaking Neo's hand?
That was the guy that Agent Smith "possessed". So I just assumed he was curious to see what pain felt like, what its like to bleed and be human.
Merovingian: A Frankish ruling dynasty (c. a.d. 450-751) founded by Merovech (fl. fifth century) and brought to prominence by Clovis I.
(ps does it bother anyone else that you can't copy and paste from Watson's dictionary?)
For those of you who are really into many of the obscure gnostic/world conspiracy stuff, you may recognize the time worn Merovingian Conspiracy. This is a fringe idea that there is a world conspiracy that involves the brothers of Jesus who supposedly survived and were at the root of the French line of Kings , of course, during the Merovingian reign . . . anyway, the Merovingians are an underground (secret order) that believes the idea above and supposedly are 'controlling history' so as to bring about some sort of Second Coming . . . . anyway . . . can't even remember where I read this Conspiracy theory but I do know that it is floating around out there, kinda like the Illuminati etc
anyway, with their love of obscure references and an obviouse knowledge of Gnosticism and its historical tendency to give birth to paranoid thinking and/or secret societies, and Gnosticism's belief that the world of matter is evil and in the control of nine 'Archons', the sons of the Demiurge (yawhew -who is the Blind Idiot God (B.I.G.) according to the Gnostics). . . I can see that they would throw the Merovingian Conspiracy in just to thicken the soup
Another note: Gnosticism is a religion based on Knowledge not belief, the knowledge 'sets you free'
----SPOILER:
now I haven't read any of the previouse posts and will get to them but, was Zion destroyed in the movie? . . . I thought so but my wife made me question my reading...
---
Another note: knowing that they are in dialogue with contemporary philosophers I understand how they would feel the need to get rid of teh simplistic messianic plot line of the first movie and to problematize the simple dichotomy of Real vs Illusion worlds that the first movie created
They are acknowledging what thinkers have been aware of since Nietzsche and Kant: there are no 'Facts' only interpretations
Therefore 'reality' is an image of our interpreted understanding of Being's happening.
now I haven't read any of the previouse posts and will get to them but, was Zion destroyed in the movie?
No. At the end of the movie, Zion had 24 hours left before the Sentinals dug their way there.
What the Sentinels destroyed was the ambush attempt, in which the only surviver was the Smith-possessed dude, who presumably was the one who caused the ambush to fail.
now I haven't read any of the previouse posts and will get to them but, was Zion destroyed in the movie? . . . I thought so but my wife made me question my reading...
I agree....and what about Merovangian's big spiel about cause and effect. Jeeezus. 2 minute speech on the subject!!!!!!
a critique of Cartesian Rationalism . . . . remember, Cornell West was on the set . . .
The Merovingian may have been one of the first versions of Neo. . . but I think that what is meant was merely the idealistic youthwith a righteous cause . . .
Just a note: in Gnosticism the demiurge is sometimes referred to as the Architect
also
in deism and the religion of the Rationalist's God is thought of as an Architect... away from the creation which operates purely through the
law of Cause and Effect
also
The Masons and Illuminati, refer to god as Architect and have elaborate rituals involving trowels . . . Conspiracy stuff here, about the "real" rulers of human history.
Note that much thinking finds a particularly allienation in this kind of Rationalist thought mand have found it as the source for the phenomena of Nihilism: the uncanny inability to find meaning and value in the world.... to find the world as a Wasteland . . . many feel that Nihilism is the unacknowledged condition of contemporary humanity
Thanks ThunderPoit! Now, do you feel like typing up the speech between Neo and the Counselor on the machine level of Zion? Please and thank you!
I'm not ThunderPoit, but I saw the movie a second time today and had my TT record the conversation. Here it is:
Quote:
Counselor: No one comes down here unless there is a problem. They don't care how it works as long as it works. I like it down here. I like to be reminded this city survives because of these machines. These machines are keeping us alive while other machines are coming to kill us. Interesting isn't it? The power to give life. The power to end it.
Neo: We have the same power.
Counselor: Oh, I suppose we do. Down here some times I think about all those people still plugged into the Matrix. I can't help thinking that in a way we are plugged into them.
Neo: But we control these machines, they don't control us.
Counselor: Of course not. How could they? The idea is pure nonsense. But it does makes one wonder: just what is control?
Neo: Well if we wanted we could shut these machines down.
Counselor: That's it. You hit it. That's control isn't it? If we wanted, we could smash them to bits. Although if we did, we'd have to worry about what would happen to our lights, our heat, our air.
Neo: So we need machines and they need us. Is that your point, Counselor?
Counselor: No. No point. Old men like me don't bother with making points. There's no point.
Neo: Is that why there are no young men on the council?
Counselor: Good point.
Neo: Why don't you tell me what's on your mind, Counselor?
Counselor: There is so much in this world that I do not understand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutely no idea how it works. But I do understand the reason for it to work. I have absolutely no idea how you are able to do some of the things you do. But I believe that there is a reason for that as well. I only hope that we understand that reason before it's too late.
The conversation with the counselor made me think of the conversation Neo had with the Architect though the Architect wasn't so humble as to say that the machines need humans. All he said was that there "are levels of survival we are willing to accept."
Hmm I just had a thought, Feel free to tear apart, it's just a meager undeveloped thought about the end of the movie when neo disrupts the sentinels.
In the matrix, Neo is able to do what he can, how? His brain, his brain is more in tune to the workings of the matrix, and thus his physical being in the matrix is able to pretty much do anything it wants. Perhaps through being in the matrix, and doing what he does there(all the physically impossible things, that spur from his mind) he suddenly had the realization, that if his mind can do it there, his mind should be able to do it in the real world. At this moment as the sentinels were coming for them, he stopped as his brain began to expand it's prevelance in the situation, "wait...I can feel them" this is him stumbling upon this capability, that his brain has gotten to the point where he can manipulate aspects of the real world.
hmm, Not a very solid theory, but It's something....I guess.
The conversation with the counselor made me think of the conversation Neo had with the Architect though the Architect wasn't so humble as to say that the machines need humans. All he said was that there "are levels of survival we are willing to accept."
Personally...I think that was a bluff, and if it wasn't a bluff, I think that all the humans connected to the matrix dying is a bluff.
Hmm I just had a thought, Feel free to tear apart, it's just a meager undeveloped thought about the end of the movie when neo disrupts the sentinels.
In the matrix, Neo is able to do what he can, how? His brain, his brain is more in tune to the workings of the matrix, and thus his physical being in the matrix is able to pretty much do anything it wants. Perhaps through being in the matrix, and doing what he does there(all the physically impossible things, that spur from his mind) he suddenly had the realization, that if his mind can do it there, his mind should be able to do it in the real world. At this moment as the sentinels were coming for them, he stopped as his brain began to expand it's prevelance in the situation, "wait...I can feel them" this is him stumbling upon this capability, that his brain has gotten to the point where he can manipulate aspects of the real world.
hmm, Not a very solid theory, but It's something....I guess.
I dunno. I'm a little against Neo becoming a real superhero. In the Matrix, it's NOT his physical being doing things. He's manipulating the computer programs to do what he wants. He's not really changing physics. I don't want him to be able to do that. But that's just me.
Comments
Seriously, I think most people are dissapointed because the movie does require thinking if you want to understand it, and most people these days have an aversion to using their minds.
I don't believe Tank was killed with the Osiris, and if he WAS then there is a plot hole because Link's wife(tank and dozer's sister) mentioned how she "lost two brothers to that ship[nebuchadnezar]"
Another great thing about the whole trilogy is that to get all the answers you really should watch the animatrix, and play the video game and such and such, but at the same time, the movies will satisfy the most pressing questions, so you don't HAVE to.
The dialogue was better than the first, they used more big words, and they had more elegant explanations and talks. But at the same time, a lot of the acting was to.....dry.
The scene when the various captains are meeting(in the beginning, when they talk about hte osiris) that is one of the worst scenes in the movie, why do all these cats have the same residual self-image? I guess that's their uniform or something. I don't know, it just looked really really corny seeing a dozen guys all dressed in expensive designer leather with shiny ties and thin glasses.
Neo was much better in this movie, simply because, while he was still a bumbling numb-nut, he also recognized how easy he could crush any opposition, which in turn lead to him just being confused, but not worried.
So they replaced him.
Tank may have survived just enough to off Cypher and then died of his wounds later. In either case, I'm sure it will be addressed in the third act.
Originally posted by Willoughby
Tank "died" because the Actor playing him and the Producers couldn't agree on a contract. He wanted more money, they didn't want to put out...or something along those lines.
So they replaced him.
yeah, duh. That's not what we are talking about
But one thing I still want to know, what was with that guy (the same guy that was on the table next to Trinity at the end) cutting his hand open before shaking Neo's hand?
Originally posted by Wrong Robust
yeah, duh. That's not what we are talking about
Because of that though, they probably just did what they could.
Originally posted by Wrong Robust
yeah, duh. That's not what we are talking about
If you knew this, then why do you really care what happened to him? Obviously they just had to make something up to explain why he wasn't there. Its pointless to even speculate, no actor = no character. Big whoop.
Originally posted by iBrowse
But one thing I still want to know, what was with that guy (the same guy that was on the table next to Trinity at the end) cutting his hand open before shaking Neo's hand?
That was the guy that Agent Smith "possessed". So I just assumed he was curious to see what pain felt like, what its like to bleed and be human.
Originally posted by SledgeHammer
To answer one of my questions from earlier:
Merovingian: A Frankish ruling dynasty (c. a.d. 450-751) founded by Merovech (fl. fifth century) and brought to prominence by Clovis I.
(ps does it bother anyone else that you can't copy and paste from Watson's dictionary?)
For those of you who are really into many of the obscure gnostic/world conspiracy stuff, you may recognize the time worn Merovingian Conspiracy. This is a fringe idea that there is a world conspiracy that involves the brothers of Jesus who supposedly survived and were at the root of the French line of Kings , of course, during the Merovingian reign . . . anyway, the Merovingians are an underground (secret order) that believes the idea above and supposedly are 'controlling history' so as to bring about some sort of Second Coming . . . . anyway . . . can't even remember where I read this Conspiracy theory but I do know that it is floating around out there, kinda like the Illuminati etc
anyway, with their love of obscure references and an obviouse knowledge of Gnosticism and its historical tendency to give birth to paranoid thinking and/or secret societies, and Gnosticism's belief that the world of matter is evil and in the control of nine 'Archons', the sons of the Demiurge (yawhew -who is the Blind Idiot God (B.I.G.) according to the Gnostics). . . I can see that they would throw the Merovingian Conspiracy in just to thicken the soup
Another note: Gnosticism is a religion based on Knowledge not belief, the knowledge 'sets you free'
----SPOILER:
now I haven't read any of the previouse posts and will get to them but, was Zion destroyed in the movie? . . . I thought so but my wife made me question my reading...
---
Another note: knowing that they are in dialogue with contemporary philosophers I understand how they would feel the need to get rid of teh simplistic messianic plot line of the first movie and to problematize the simple dichotomy of Real vs Illusion worlds that the first movie created
They are acknowledging what thinkers have been aware of since Nietzsche and Kant: there are no 'Facts' only interpretations
Therefore 'reality' is an image of our interpreted understanding of Being's happening.
Originally posted by pfflam
----SPOILER:
now I haven't read any of the previouse posts and will get to them but, was Zion destroyed in the movie?
No. At the end of the movie, Zion had 24 hours left before the Sentinals dug their way there.
What the Sentinels destroyed was the ambush attempt, in which the only surviver was the Smith-possessed dude, who presumably was the one who caused the ambush to fail.
Originally posted by pfflam
now I haven't read any of the previouse posts and will get to them but, was Zion destroyed in the movie? . . . I thought so but my wife made me question my reading...
no, not yet anyway
Originally posted by Joecool
I agree....and what about Merovangian's big spiel about cause and effect. Jeeezus. 2 minute speech on the subject!!!!!!
a critique of Cartesian Rationalism . . . . remember, Cornell West was on the set . . .
The Merovingian may have been one of the first versions of Neo. . . but I think that what is meant was merely the idealistic youthwith a righteous cause . . .
Just a note: in Gnosticism the demiurge is sometimes referred to as the Architect
also
in deism and the religion of the Rationalist's God is thought of as an Architect... away from the creation which operates purely through the
law of Cause and Effect
also
The Masons and Illuminati, refer to god as Architect and have elaborate rituals involving trowels . . . Conspiracy stuff here, about the "real" rulers of human history.
Note that much thinking finds a particularly allienation in this kind of Rationalist thought mand have found it as the source for the phenomena of Nihilism: the uncanny inability to find meaning and value in the world.... to find the world as a Wasteland . . . many feel that Nihilism is the unacknowledged condition of contemporary humanity
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Thanks ThunderPoit! Now, do you feel like typing up the speech between Neo and the Counselor on the machine level of Zion? Please and thank you!
I'm not ThunderPoit, but I saw the movie a second time today and had my TT record the conversation. Here it is:
Counselor: No one comes down here unless there is a problem. They don't care how it works as long as it works. I like it down here. I like to be reminded this city survives because of these machines. These machines are keeping us alive while other machines are coming to kill us. Interesting isn't it? The power to give life. The power to end it.
Neo: We have the same power.
Counselor: Oh, I suppose we do. Down here some times I think about all those people still plugged into the Matrix. I can't help thinking that in a way we are plugged into them.
Neo: But we control these machines, they don't control us.
Counselor: Of course not. How could they? The idea is pure nonsense. But it does makes one wonder: just what is control?
Neo: Well if we wanted we could shut these machines down.
Counselor: That's it. You hit it. That's control isn't it? If we wanted, we could smash them to bits. Although if we did, we'd have to worry about what would happen to our lights, our heat, our air.
Neo: So we need machines and they need us. Is that your point, Counselor?
Counselor: No. No point. Old men like me don't bother with making points. There's no point.
Neo: Is that why there are no young men on the council?
Counselor: Good point.
Neo: Why don't you tell me what's on your mind, Counselor?
Counselor: There is so much in this world that I do not understand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutely no idea how it works. But I do understand the reason for it to work. I have absolutely no idea how you are able to do some of the things you do. But I believe that there is a reason for that as well. I only hope that we understand that reason before it's too late.
In the matrix, Neo is able to do what he can, how? His brain, his brain is more in tune to the workings of the matrix, and thus his physical being in the matrix is able to pretty much do anything it wants. Perhaps through being in the matrix, and doing what he does there(all the physically impossible things, that spur from his mind) he suddenly had the realization, that if his mind can do it there, his mind should be able to do it in the real world. At this moment as the sentinels were coming for them, he stopped as his brain began to expand it's prevelance in the situation, "wait...I can feel them" this is him stumbling upon this capability, that his brain has gotten to the point where he can manipulate aspects of the real world.
hmm, Not a very solid theory, but It's something....I guess.
Originally posted by torifile
The conversation with the counselor made me think of the conversation Neo had with the Architect though the Architect wasn't so humble as to say that the machines need humans. All he said was that there "are levels of survival we are willing to accept."
Personally...I think that was a bluff, and if it wasn't a bluff, I think that all the humans connected to the matrix dying is a bluff.
but that's just my opinion.
Originally posted by Wrong Robust
Hmm I just had a thought, Feel free to tear apart, it's just a meager undeveloped thought about the end of the movie when neo disrupts the sentinels.
In the matrix, Neo is able to do what he can, how? His brain, his brain is more in tune to the workings of the matrix, and thus his physical being in the matrix is able to pretty much do anything it wants. Perhaps through being in the matrix, and doing what he does there(all the physically impossible things, that spur from his mind) he suddenly had the realization, that if his mind can do it there, his mind should be able to do it in the real world. At this moment as the sentinels were coming for them, he stopped as his brain began to expand it's prevelance in the situation, "wait...I can feel them" this is him stumbling upon this capability, that his brain has gotten to the point where he can manipulate aspects of the real world.
hmm, Not a very solid theory, but It's something....I guess.
I dunno. I'm a little against Neo becoming a real superhero. In the Matrix, it's NOT his physical being doing things. He's manipulating the computer programs to do what he wants. He's not really changing physics. I don't want him to be able to do that. But that's just me.