The choice is simple, the extinction of mankind and loss of all hope as the machines resort to other means of sustainining themselves or to go back to the source and restart the Matrix with the slim chance that things will change.
except that without a current Zion, there's no way "the one" will have any idea of hope for humanity. seeing how far they had come, what they'd accomplished, is part of the future hope.
if you were held out the choice of repopulating the earth like those before you, and when you looked around all you saw were small nomadic bands vs. teeming metropolis, i think there's a big difference.
I didn't get the docking scene. If the operators are wearing squeaky clean brand spanking new outfits, why are the rest of ZION citizens wearing nothing but crap?
I didn't get the docking scene. If the operators are wearing squeaky clean brand spanking new outfits, why are the rest of ZION citizens wearing nothing but crap?
the people at the docking station were actually plugged into their own little matrix of sorts. i think it was the point that even in Zion they were using a lot of advanced machinery.
before you see the people working on the computers at the docking station, you see the same people plugged into matrix style chairs.
the architect makes the matrix. turns out that somoene like Neo always shows up within the matrix. this "the one" carries within them a bit of code that's necessary for the Matrix to function. for the Matrix to continue, the One has to voluntarily go back to the source, then the Matrix starts over.
the reason for Zion is that when the One is faced with a choice, he has to have another choice besides "die and go back to the source". so the machines created/allowed Zion. Zion is humanities hope, so here's what happens.
I agree with a lot of what you said, except the part about the Matrix resetting itself. That isn't part of the explaination given by the Architect. He says the Matrix is very old, it resetting wouldn't imply it is old. I think the world in the Matrix continues after each iterartion of the One chooses to cooperate and select the group to restart Zion. My take on the explaination is that Zion keeps getting destroyed and rebuilt with seed stock, selected by prior iterations of the One. Zion is required to contain the group of people, the 1%, who can not conform within the Matrix and cause in stability. The anomaly, that is the One, is allowed to exist in order to start freeing these minds and taking them in the real world to Zion. Zion is used as a containment area for the freed humans, though they think they are living free. The machines can't allow Zion to reach the population where they become an actual threat, so they periodically wipe it out.
But, again, my question is what then becomes of the One? Does he die of old age in the real world, and the current generation of freed humans await his rebirth, or rather the birth of the next iterartion to continue the cycle? Also, if the machines wipe out Zion again and again, do they patch up the hole the drilled down? Otherwise the humans must wonder about the great big holes above them. Also, if the machines wipe out Zion, why do the not built in some sort of doomsday device into the engineering level of Zion that would periodically decimate the population, therefore eliminationg the need for the One. Once the cycle of freeing minds starts with the One, the residents of Zion learn how to continue freeing minds. They get too numerous, the machines could reduce there numbers periodically but not wholly wipe them out, and the survivors continue to free the problem minds from teh Matrix...voila, no need for the one in the future....
Here's a thought...something that hasn't been mentioned yet...
What if Neo's mistake is that he believed the Architect and not the Oracle? What if she was telling the truth and he was lying? What if going through the other door really would have ended it? The Architect knows this and essentially talks Neo into choosing the door he chooses, a little reverse psychology. I don't know, just a thought.
And a question: what is the name of the french guy holding the key maker? I can't remember his "title" and also, what does it mean. Everyone's name means something in these movies, I am sure that his is no different.
No you didn't. That 1% you mention can be disposed of rather easily. There's no need to herd them off to Zion and keep them alive.
I will concede that this is the only acceptable path for the trilogy short of letting the machines destroy mankind. We all know that the humans will prevail at least somewhat by the end. There's no way they can prevail if there's no Zion and only a handful of people constantly running from sentinels.
No you didn't. That 1% you mention can be disposed of rather easily. There's no need to herd them off to Zion and keep them alive.
That 1% is still in the matrix though. They are never a real threat. This is them being disposed of. Two layers of the matrix. It's that simple. How else does Neo "feel" the presence of the sentinels and stop them as if he were actually in the already known layer of the Matrix?
That 1% is still in the matrix though. They are never a real threat. This is them being disposed of. Two layers of the matrix. It's that simple. How else does Neo "feel" the presence of the sentinels and stop them as if he were actually in the already known layer of the Matrix?
Because you're operating on the assumption that there is a second layer to the Matrix. I don't think that's quite where the Wachowski's are going.
I'm not quite content with any of these explinations.
The whole thing just kinda doesn't add up.
I took the architect to be saying a whole bunch of stuff you mentioned but the end result (I felt) was that...
1) There is a matrix which neo was freed from.
2) There are choices (like the red/blue pill) which people in the matrix make which determines if they are part of the 1% or 99%.
3) If they are part of the 1% they are allowed out of the 'inner' matrix into the outer matrix.
4) The outer matrix people are then controled by the hope of 'the one'.
5) Periodically when the outer population (which is still part of the matrix) gets too large and wants to really start 'freeing' minds. In order to keep them on the 'hopefull' side they wipe um out and let them rebuild.
6) But I just don't figure out why? Why everything?
So if they 'one' is an anomoly and crops up every now and then as the result of hanging decmils and remainders on mega equations, and further if he is still being used as a control to the matrix, what is with all these trippy choices and doors?
The plot just got as thick as mud and just as many critics have said I am dissapointed. It's not that I was cheated. They put together a good movie, but it is NOT the movie I expected to see. The third movie has some real explaining to do since there are hundreds of plot gaps in this movie.
WTF is up with the 'ghosty' agents and we get no background on them? WTF is up with Smith whacking real agents? Wouldn't he be an enemy of the matrix since he is killing agents and people? WTF is up with 'hacking' into a humans mind and escaping into the 'real world' (if it IS real). WTF is up with the kid who neo freed? No background info, no idea who the heck he is etc. WTF is up with Morphoeous love intrest? WTF is up since Zion is destroyed and there are few of them left (I dunno, 13-15) isn't that the correct number to rebuild zion? (just like the architect said?) WTF is up with the two door choices? Could somebody watch that Architect scene, then type it up and translate it to lamens terms and tell me what the two choices were? WTF is up with all these 'rouge' programs now which suddenly are being revealed? WTF is up with the new operator? Basically we find that Zion is destroyed which would mean his wife is dead? (um... where's the happy ending for HIM?) I just have wayyyyy too many WTFs with this movie. The Matrix 1 was homogenous. Few plot gaps, uniform appeal, powerful characters and LOTS of answers. Is neo the one? Yes he is the one. Can we kill an agent? Yes we can kill an agent. What is the Matrix? The matrix is a computer. What is the real world? The real world is a nasty place. The first movie was built by asking questions, then giving answers. This new movie is nothing but questions thought....
Is this gonna have a bloody ending like 13th floor where there is a world within a world within a world etc? HOW lame is that gonna be when they come to discover they are STILL in a Matrix, so how can you ever be really sure you are escaping?
Another question, if they NEED 'the one' to do all these things etc why the hell are they trying to kill him in the first movie? This is folly! There is just TOO damn much inconsistencies.
Why couldn't this movie have been what we wanted. Neo fighting to free more people from the matrix and kicking agent ass and using uber powers. Then the system upgrades itself to deal with the thread (new uber agents) which he then beats down on even more. (go neo, go neo, it's you birthday) So now folks are being freed mega quick and they are getting a nice army together and they are gonna try to change the matrix. They can't wake everyone up at once (how would they medically treat them all and feed a couple billion people?) So they want to free their minds but not their bodies (yet). They start a revolution of people in the matrix, explaining what is going on in undeniable ways. This makes the people in the system begin to reject the system and so they must be cut from the system. This is causing a global breakdown (via slowdown) in the system. Eventually robots run low on power, people emerge to the promised land and the world wakes up on a new day.
Not Unlike Myself, yeah, it would be a real shame if this BR and others' layered-Matrix assumption turned out to be true. That specific plot-twist is plausible, but I would hate it...and it still doesn't justify the existence of Zion. I don't think the Twins are agents...they're behaving like rogue programs as the Oracle described.
The scene wasn't that hard to follow. The original perfect world that the architect created failed because of humanity's innate imperfection. He then builds The Matrix as we know it such that 99% of the population find it utterly believable. The 1% that don't need to have somewhere to go and that is Zion. The One is built into the system as a failsafe to prevent Zion from ever reaching critical mass or ever causing real harm. Of course, that's what the Architect says is the truth. Me? I don't believe it. There has to be two layers of the Matrix for Neo to have done that at the end.
Where would the world be without smart people? I didn't get that when I saw it, twice (3/14 & 3/15). Thanks, I'm serious .
I actually got a good sleep the second time I saw it. Loved the freeway scene, but hated Lou Ferrigno jumping on the hood of the car (hey, where'd he come from?). In all, great movie. The fight with the Smiths, IMHO, was overdone. To the point that you could see different black levels among the Smiths. I couldn't get in to it more because that distracted me. That being said, I couldn't do it.
Hey, someone told me that Nyobi has a 1 hour movie on the 'Enter the Matrix' video game, that goes into what happened before she called Link and what happenned when she blew up the power station. Can anyone confirm this? I don't play video games, but if that's true I'll buy it.
i really, really hope it's not a two layer matrix deal. that would be completely lame, IMO. reminds me of the Mission Impossible where everyone just put on a fake face and was someone else. goddamn scooby doo hour.
it would explain how agent smith was able to infiltrate the guy's body (who's passed out on the table next to Neo) and how Neo stopped the Sentinals, but i'm hoping it's not going to be that obvious. the more i think about it though, the more it makes sense.
otherwise how would you "die" in the real world if you died in that matrix, or how would Neo be able to bring people back to life via the Matrix.
it would leave the same taste in my mouth as the first (new) star wars, where it turns out the "force" is just some stupid ass mitochondria or some shit in your cells. totally lame spin on a mysitical idea.
why doesn't anyone appreciate the mystical anymore? *sigh*
Pay attention to the architect's dialog. Stop being willfully ignorant here.
I tried to pay attention. Really I did. But it was so boring and convoluted that I just had to give up. This movie could shed 45 minutes....get rid of Morpheus' bombastic messiah speeches, get rid of the goofy Frenchmen and the orgasm cake, get rid of the 'Architect' speech, the Oracle's speech, and Smith's speech, and cut to the friggin' chase already!
I really hope they don't do the "matrix within a matrix" thing like it seems like they're headed towards. that would completely destroy whatever plot they have left.
ok, maybe someone in this thread can explain this part to me, still a leftover question i have from the first matrix.
wtf do they even bother keeping the human beings alive?
they say they need them for energy, but in any closed system, you do nothing but LOSE energy the entire time. so they'd be slowly DECREASING the amount of total energy available to them the longer they keep the people alive.
the only way it would work is if they could pull energy from some other source to make up for what's lost, but if that were the case, they wouldn't need the human beings anyway, because they'd have another energy source.
it really annoyed me because the entire premise for the movie doesn't work according to the laws of physics.
alcimedes, you are right, but at the same time you are wrong. The thing is this isn't a closed system. By simply using us like photovoltaic cells or like plants that photossynthesize you can havest the heat, which is turned into power. They of course are using outside energy to keep humans alive. The sun, geothermal power, feeding them, sunlight, etc. So the systems isn't flawless. Things break down, (as we saw) etc but on such a grand scale such small losses are irrelevant. (this is the premise, so I hope I explained it)
Comments
Originally posted by Eugene
There is no reason for the machines to perpetuate Zion by keeping 13 people alive.
Pay attention to the architect's dialog. Stop being willfully ignorant here.
The choice is simple, the extinction of mankind and loss of all hope as the machines resort to other means of sustainining themselves or to go back to the source and restart the Matrix with the slim chance that things will change.
except that without a current Zion, there's no way "the one" will have any idea of hope for humanity. seeing how far they had come, what they'd accomplished, is part of the future hope.
if you were held out the choice of repopulating the earth like those before you, and when you looked around all you saw were small nomadic bands vs. teeming metropolis, i think there's a big difference.
I didn't get the docking scene. If the operators are wearing squeaky clean brand spanking new outfits, why are the rest of ZION citizens wearing nothing but crap?
the people at the docking station were actually plugged into their own little matrix of sorts. i think it was the point that even in Zion they were using a lot of advanced machinery.
before you see the people working on the computers at the docking station, you see the same people plugged into matrix style chairs.
Originally posted by alcimedes
ok, my understanding of this is the following.
the architect makes the matrix. turns out that somoene like Neo always shows up within the matrix. this "the one" carries within them a bit of code that's necessary for the Matrix to function. for the Matrix to continue, the One has to voluntarily go back to the source, then the Matrix starts over.
the reason for Zion is that when the One is faced with a choice, he has to have another choice besides "die and go back to the source". so the machines created/allowed Zion. Zion is humanities hope, so here's what happens.
I agree with a lot of what you said, except the part about the Matrix resetting itself. That isn't part of the explaination given by the Architect. He says the Matrix is very old, it resetting wouldn't imply it is old. I think the world in the Matrix continues after each iterartion of the One chooses to cooperate and select the group to restart Zion. My take on the explaination is that Zion keeps getting destroyed and rebuilt with seed stock, selected by prior iterations of the One. Zion is required to contain the group of people, the 1%, who can not conform within the Matrix and cause in stability. The anomaly, that is the One, is allowed to exist in order to start freeing these minds and taking them in the real world to Zion. Zion is used as a containment area for the freed humans, though they think they are living free. The machines can't allow Zion to reach the population where they become an actual threat, so they periodically wipe it out.
But, again, my question is what then becomes of the One? Does he die of old age in the real world, and the current generation of freed humans await his rebirth, or rather the birth of the next iterartion to continue the cycle? Also, if the machines wipe out Zion again and again, do they patch up the hole the drilled down? Otherwise the humans must wonder about the great big holes above them. Also, if the machines wipe out Zion, why do the not built in some sort of doomsday device into the engineering level of Zion that would periodically decimate the population, therefore eliminationg the need for the One. Once the cycle of freeing minds starts with the One, the residents of Zion learn how to continue freeing minds. They get too numerous, the machines could reduce there numbers periodically but not wholly wipe them out, and the survivors continue to free the problem minds from teh Matrix...voila, no need for the one in the future....
just a movie.......
What if Neo's mistake is that he believed the Architect and not the Oracle? What if she was telling the truth and he was lying? What if going through the other door really would have ended it? The Architect knows this and essentially talks Neo into choosing the door he chooses, a little reverse psychology. I don't know, just a thought.
And a question: what is the name of the french guy holding the key maker? I can't remember his "title" and also, what does it mean. Everyone's name means something in these movies, I am sure that his is no different.
Originally posted by BR
Pay attention to the architect's dialog. Stop being willfully ignorant here.
Why don't you explain it in detail for me then?
Originally posted by Eugene
Why don't you explain it in detail for me then?
I already did.
Originally posted by BR
I already did.
No you didn't. That 1% you mention can be disposed of rather easily. There's no need to herd them off to Zion and keep them alive.
I will concede that this is the only acceptable path for the trilogy short of letting the machines destroy mankind. We all know that the humans will prevail at least somewhat by the end. There's no way they can prevail if there's no Zion and only a handful of people constantly running from sentinels.
Originally posted by Eugene
No you didn't. That 1% you mention can be disposed of rather easily. There's no need to herd them off to Zion and keep them alive.
That 1% is still in the matrix though. They are never a real threat. This is them being disposed of. Two layers of the matrix. It's that simple. How else does Neo "feel" the presence of the sentinels and stop them as if he were actually in the already known layer of the Matrix?
Originally posted by BR
That 1% is still in the matrix though. They are never a real threat. This is them being disposed of. Two layers of the matrix. It's that simple. How else does Neo "feel" the presence of the sentinels and stop them as if he were actually in the already known layer of the Matrix?
Because you're operating on the assumption that there is a second layer to the Matrix. I don't think that's quite where the Wachowski's are going.
The whole thing just kinda doesn't add up.
I took the architect to be saying a whole bunch of stuff you mentioned but the end result (I felt) was that...
1) There is a matrix which neo was freed from.
2) There are choices (like the red/blue pill) which people in the matrix make which determines if they are part of the 1% or 99%.
3) If they are part of the 1% they are allowed out of the 'inner' matrix into the outer matrix.
4) The outer matrix people are then controled by the hope of 'the one'.
5) Periodically when the outer population (which is still part of the matrix) gets too large and wants to really start 'freeing' minds. In order to keep them on the 'hopefull' side they wipe um out and let them rebuild.
6) But I just don't figure out why? Why everything?
So if they 'one' is an anomoly and crops up every now and then as the result of hanging decmils and remainders on mega equations, and further if he is still being used as a control to the matrix, what is with all these trippy choices and doors?
The plot just got as thick as mud and just as many critics have said I am dissapointed. It's not that I was cheated. They put together a good movie, but it is NOT the movie I expected to see. The third movie has some real explaining to do since there are hundreds of plot gaps in this movie.
WTF is up with the 'ghosty' agents and we get no background on them? WTF is up with Smith whacking real agents? Wouldn't he be an enemy of the matrix since he is killing agents and people? WTF is up with 'hacking' into a humans mind and escaping into the 'real world' (if it IS real). WTF is up with the kid who neo freed? No background info, no idea who the heck he is etc. WTF is up with Morphoeous love intrest? WTF is up since Zion is destroyed and there are few of them left (I dunno, 13-15) isn't that the correct number to rebuild zion? (just like the architect said?) WTF is up with the two door choices? Could somebody watch that Architect scene, then type it up and translate it to lamens terms and tell me what the two choices were? WTF is up with all these 'rouge' programs now which suddenly are being revealed? WTF is up with the new operator? Basically we find that Zion is destroyed which would mean his wife is dead? (um... where's the happy ending for HIM?) I just have wayyyyy too many WTFs with this movie. The Matrix 1 was homogenous. Few plot gaps, uniform appeal, powerful characters and LOTS of answers. Is neo the one? Yes he is the one. Can we kill an agent? Yes we can kill an agent. What is the Matrix? The matrix is a computer. What is the real world? The real world is a nasty place. The first movie was built by asking questions, then giving answers. This new movie is nothing but questions thought....
Grrr..... (goes to get more coffee)
Is this gonna have a bloody ending like 13th floor where there is a world within a world within a world etc? HOW lame is that gonna be when they come to discover they are STILL in a Matrix, so how can you ever be really sure you are escaping?
Another question, if they NEED 'the one' to do all these things etc why the hell are they trying to kill him in the first movie? This is folly! There is just TOO damn much inconsistencies.
Why couldn't this movie have been what we wanted. Neo fighting to free more people from the matrix and kicking agent ass and using uber powers. Then the system upgrades itself to deal with the thread (new uber agents) which he then beats down on even more. (go neo, go neo, it's you birthday) So now folks are being freed mega quick and they are getting a nice army together and they are gonna try to change the matrix. They can't wake everyone up at once (how would they medically treat them all and feed a couple billion people?) So they want to free their minds but not their bodies (yet). They start a revolution of people in the matrix, explaining what is going on in undeniable ways. This makes the people in the system begin to reject the system and so they must be cut from the system. This is causing a global breakdown (via slowdown) in the system. Eventually robots run low on power, people emerge to the promised land and the world wakes up on a new day.
Originally posted by BR
The scene wasn't that hard to follow. The original perfect world that the architect created failed because of humanity's innate imperfection. He then builds The Matrix as we know it such that 99% of the population find it utterly believable. The 1% that don't need to have somewhere to go and that is Zion. The One is built into the system as a failsafe to prevent Zion from ever reaching critical mass or ever causing real harm. Of course, that's what the Architect says is the truth. Me? I don't believe it. There has to be two layers of the Matrix for Neo to have done that at the end.
Where would the world be without smart people? I didn't get that when I saw it, twice (3/14 & 3/15). Thanks, I'm serious .
I actually got a good sleep the second time I saw it. Loved the freeway scene, but hated Lou Ferrigno jumping on the hood of the car (hey, where'd he come from?). In all, great movie. The fight with the Smiths, IMHO, was overdone. To the point that you could see different black levels among the Smiths. I couldn't get in to it more because that distracted me. That being said, I couldn't do it.
Hey, someone told me that Nyobi has a 1 hour movie on the 'Enter the Matrix' video game, that goes into what happened before she called Link and what happenned when she blew up the power station. Can anyone confirm this? I don't play video games, but if that's true I'll buy it.
By the way, JADA ROCKED!!!!!
it would explain how agent smith was able to infiltrate the guy's body (who's passed out on the table next to Neo) and how Neo stopped the Sentinals, but i'm hoping it's not going to be that obvious. the more i think about it though, the more it makes sense.
otherwise how would you "die" in the real world if you died in that matrix, or how would Neo be able to bring people back to life via the Matrix.
it would leave the same taste in my mouth as the first (new) star wars, where it turns out the "force" is just some stupid ass mitochondria or some shit in your cells. totally lame spin on a mysitical idea.
why doesn't anyone appreciate the mystical anymore? *sigh*
Originally posted by BR
Pay attention to the architect's dialog. Stop being willfully ignorant here.
I tried to pay attention. Really I did. But it was so boring and convoluted that I just had to give up. This movie could shed 45 minutes....get rid of Morpheus' bombastic messiah speeches, get rid of the goofy Frenchmen and the orgasm cake, get rid of the 'Architect' speech, the Oracle's speech, and Smith's speech, and cut to the friggin' chase already!
I really hope they don't do the "matrix within a matrix" thing like it seems like they're headed towards. that would completely destroy whatever plot they have left.
wtf do they even bother keeping the human beings alive?
they say they need them for energy, but in any closed system, you do nothing but LOSE energy the entire time. so they'd be slowly DECREASING the amount of total energy available to them the longer they keep the people alive.
the only way it would work is if they could pull energy from some other source to make up for what's lost, but if that were the case, they wouldn't need the human beings anyway, because they'd have another energy source.
it really annoyed me because the entire premise for the movie doesn't work according to the laws of physics.
Its a hole in the plot and its as large as the atlantic.