Sorry. No sunlight. That why they started using humans as batteries
Its a hole in the plot and its as large as the atlantic.
You are being to critical. It isn't that big a deal. You don't ask how superman flys, you don't ask how timetravel is possible in the terminator, you don't ask how 'the force' works. But you have to get scientific with something which seems to make sense to the rest of us...
Seriously: I like the matrix despite the holes in the plot and from the sound of it I´m going to love reloaded (always had a thing for films which language and feel boarders the religious and mythical which this film does)
The plot holes doesn´t border me at all. What borders me is when someone points them out they come up with a ridicules explanation that doesn´t function at all. Say "Yes its a hole" and I am satisfied.
i was just wondering if anyone had an explanation for it. the entire time i was watching the first movie i kept trying to figure out how in the world that would work. iirc, the whole point of the machines turning to humans in the first place was because they had no other sources of energy.
*shrugs*
i was hoping maybe there was something obvious i was missing, but no one has ever been able to explain it, and for some reason i seem to be the only one who's noticed/cared.
alcimedes, you are right, but at the same time you are wrong. The thing is this isn't a closed system. By simply using us like photovoltaic cells or like plants that photossynthesize you can havest the heat, which is turned into power. They of course are using outside energy to keep humans alive. The sun, geothermal power, feeding them, sunlight, etc. So the systems isn't flawless. Things break down, (as we saw) etc but on such a grand scale such small losses are irrelevant. (this is the premise, so I hope I explained it)
The energy obviously comes from the nutrient gel that they are able to harvest/produce. Perhaps they are very efficient at making that nutrient gel and can make large quantities without expending much energy. Perhaps the human body is more efficient and breaking down that gel into energy than the machines are. It's a symbiotic relationship.
The energy obviously comes from the nutrient gel that they are able to harvest/produce. Perhaps they are very efficient at making that nutrient gel and can make large quantities without expending much energy. Perhaps the human body is more efficient and breaking down that gel into energy than the machines are. It's a symbiotic relationship.
1) I thought the gel was dead people liquidfied but of course that doesn´t add up because we use more energy than we build up in our bodies. There must be energy from outside that cycle.
2) The machines used to use the sun as an energy source but it was blacked out. So how should plants be able to grow now?
2.1) Light - what is wasted in the plants - harvesting - wasted in human batteries - wasted to keep the Matrix going > solar cells? I don´t think so.
The energy obviously comes from the nutrient gel that they are able to harvest/produce.
sure, but where does that come from? problem is aside from a small amount of thermal energy, the entire planet gets all its energy from the sun. if humans blocked out the sun, there is zero energy coming into the planet.
so they take all the humans, put them in pods etc. and take care of them. you're talking about massive energy expenditures. i mean shit, look at those sentinals. one of those things flying around for 5 min. would require the energy from a human body for a lifetime.
but there's the kicker, where does that energy come from.
say for example they manange to get 90% efffeciency, total, from their system. (that's accounting for all the energy the machines use to move around, all the energy used by a human body to survive etc, in which case i think 90% is HIGH).
the first year you run your system, you have 10,000 BTU's of energy.
cycle one year.
next year you have 9,000 BTU's of energy. one year later, 8,100 BTU's of energy, next year, 7,290 BTU's of energy.
you would rapidly run out of energy in that system. so you say they're somehow replacing that energy from another source? if that were the case why bother with humans at all? you could just destroy all the humans from day one, net the 10,000 BTU's, and then have your other energy source.
Well, I answered my own question. According to Amazon.com, there is a 1 hour's worth of never before seen footage on the Enter the Matrix game featuring characters from the movie.
The first movie mentioned the machines using a form of fusion to augment the humans heat output. Which begs the question, why don't they just use fusion?
I try not to think about it. I think of it as part of the magic one must believe in all science fiction movies.
Or if push comes to shove, I think of the matrix as sort of a chaotic neuro-network computer. The AIs find value in the chaotic and "intuitive" ideas that leap forth from human minds. Sort of like art maybe.
The first movie mentioned the machines using a form of fusion to augment the humans heat output. Which begs the question, why don't they just use fusion?
In the first movie, the humans were fed a processed slurry of human remains. If one must preserved thermodynamics, just say that there are lots of chemosynthetic organisms around that are added to the slurry to make up for the inevitable energy losses.
WTF is up with the 'ghosty' agents and we get no background on them? WTF is up with Smith whacking real agents? Wouldn't he be an enemy of the matrix since he is killing agents and people? WTF is up with 'hacking' into a humans mind and escaping into the 'real world' (if it IS real). WTF is up with the kid who neo freed? No background info, no idea who the heck he is etc. WTF is up with Morphoeous love intrest? WTF is up since Zion is destroyed and there are few of them left (I dunno, 13-15) isn't that the correct number to rebuild zion? (just like the architect said?) WTF is up with the two door choices? Could somebody watch that Architect scene, then type it up and translate it to lamens terms and tell me what the two choices were? WTF is up with all these 'rouge' programs now which suddenly are being revealed? WTF is up with the new operator? Basically we find that Zion is destroyed which would mean his wife is dead? (um... where's the happy ending for HIM?) I just have wayyyyy too many WTFs with this movie. The Matrix 1 was homogenous. Few plot gaps, uniform appeal, powerful characters and LOTS of answers. Is neo the one? Yes he is the one. Can we kill an agent? Yes we can kill an agent. What is the Matrix? The matrix is a computer. What is the real world? The real world is a nasty place. The first movie was built by asking questions, then giving answers. This new movie is nothing but questions thought....
Grrr..... (goes to get more coffee)
Ghost agents I think are rogue programs, like the vampires and the french guy.
Smith is essentially now a rogue program, he say's he's been freed, so he's now a solo, free agent so to speak.
I guess since Smith can take over the 'body' of a freed mind, that when that mind is 'returned' to the real world, his mind went with it.
Kid that Neo freed is a mystery so far...guess maybe he was simply meant to portray as an example of some of the work Neo has been doing since the first movie.
Was Zion destroyed at the end or was it the ships manning one of the gates and the guards that were wiped out? I must have fazed out at that point trying to think of how it was Neo stopped the Sentinals.
2 Choices of Neo: Choice 1: do as the previous iterations did and choose to assist the machines by selecting a small group of people from within the Matrix to restart the destroyed population of Zion. He would have to abandon his friends currently in the Martix (Trinity etc), as well as stand by while Zion was destroyed. Choice 2: Return to the Matrix and try to save Trinity. He could then return to the 'real world' to assist in the seemingly futile battle against the machines. This is presented as a vain and fruitless choice, yet it seems the Architect goads him into choosing that option.
Rogue programs: There wouldn't really be a point to revealing their existence to any of the resistence members, before revealing them to Neo. The humans can't match them in the Matrix by any means. That doesn't mean they weren't revealed to previous iterations of the One and his resistence members.
The new operator? I guess Tank died on one of the missions since the last movie. Not sure how he would have been killed though. He didn't have the required hookups to enter the Matrix and get killed and if his ship was attacked and he was killed, then probably so would have his crew mates, who obviously are still around. Perhaps he succumbed to his injuries from the last movie.
You are totally right, this doesn't seem to be shaping up to be a homogenous story line. Great stories have internal consistency, that is part of what makes them great. If you are going to create an entire fictional universe, you had better pay attention to internally compatible story lines, otherwise your storyline as a whole falls apart. I am hoping Revolutions doesn't just patch in the holes. I am hoping it shows that they aren't holes but simply questions that waited to be answered. And they had better damn well answer the questions. I don't want some cheap ass ending of Revolutions that basically concludes that everythig is unknowable and therefore nothing is truly answered. A smart but enigmatic ending is one thing, but leaving thread hanging just because they couldn't be bothered closing them off is just cheap.
from the MacNN forums "Millennium." Just something for all of you to think about....:
When enough humans reject the Matrix -and some humans inevitably will, such that it's only a matter of time before too many do- problems arise. Perhaps the system becomes unstable. Evidently, the Matrix has found that the best way to deal with this is to cyclically allow them to get up to a certain point, then kill them all and start over. It does this with "The One", a human who does not have the mental limitations normally placed on people by the Matrix. The One can see the Matrix for what it really is, and this is important, because he (there has not yet been any mention of a female One) must merge with the Matrix to repair the damage caused by the rejections. Merging with the Matrix does not kill the One, but it does seem to alter the One's consciousness, often "corrupting" the One in the process. Once Zion was created, the One was able to survive merging with the Matrix, and would help the people he had chosen (re)build the city. Before that... well, we don't know.
But the One isn't the only one who's changed. The Matrix changes too. It refines itself at every iteration, using, as the Architect pointed out, the "code" carried by the One. This is why I refer to the process as "merging with the Matrix"; it's a system whereby the One and the Matrix are changed.
Zion does not keep people from rejecting the Matrix entirely. But because it creates choice, it slows down the rate of rejection, and therefore the cycle lasts longer. This is, to the Matrix's mind, a Good Thing.
So, here's my theory of how this all went down. This is pure speculation for the most part, though it draws heavily on what the Architect said.
The first Matrix was a paradise for humans. People did not accept it, and when the critical mass of "deniers" was reached very quickly. The Matrix responded by turning a person into the First One, removing the mental blocks which bound them to the Matrix. The Architect met the First One, explained the situation (including the implications for all humanity if the bug was allowed to go unchecked. The One was given the choice to enter the Source, merge with the Matrix, be corrupted, and save humanity, or it could just go back to the Matrix and everything would end. He (she?) chose to merge. In addition, The Mother (also called The Oracle) was created to study human psychology. What happened to the First One after merging with the Matrix is unknown. There was no Zion to go to, but his personality may have been kept alive as a program. It is actually possible that the First One's personality may have been used to create The Mother.
The second Matrix wasn't perfect, but people still refused to accept it, and batch of "deniers" appeared. So, the Second One was created. Again, we have bugs, and the Architect appears, and the Second One merges with the Matrix. At the same time, The Mother realizes a way to help people accept the Matrix: Zion. Whether Zion is a Matrix-within-a-Matrix or a pocket of humanity in the "real world" is not yet known. So the choice the Second One may have been given was to merge with the Matrix to give people the promise of freedom, or perhaps he, too, was corrupted. When the Second One merged with the Matrix, he was then allowed to free 23 people right off the bat -sixteen women and seven men; he himself was the 24th person- to populate this new place. His personality may have been used to create Seraph, or a similar sentient program that isn't actually part of the Matrix.
The third Matrix was similar to the second, but with Zion in whatever nature it really is. Some people still refused to accept it, but this came at a much slower rate. However, a new wrinkle was thrown into the mix: those who were freed started going back into the Matrix to free others. This was unacceptable. The Third One is created. Architect blah blah blah, end result is that he merges with the Matrix. He -or the leftover scraps of his personality from merging with the Matrix- probably became the first Agent, a new program with One-like powers, designed to counteract humans who re-entered the Matrix to free others.
The fourth Matrix was probably a lot like the third. Given what little we hear concerning the powers of Neo's immediate predecessor, it is possible that the Keymaker was the Fourth One, and his personality was used to create the Backdoor System, in order to help Agents (and similar programs, such as the Twins) move through the system more easily.
The Fifth One was the first to use the Backdoors. When he merged with the Matrix, he decided to take a new tactic and slow things down a bit, so the cycles would last longer. He told his people of a prophecy, such that he will return and end the war. This kept the people of Zion happier, they didn't fight as much, and the cycle lasted longer. I have no clue what the Fifth One might have become. It is entirely possible that he became Agent Smith.
This brings us to the sixth Matrix, which is where the movie takes place. The Sixth One has appeared: Neo. He's a little different from the others. The Architect chose Ones for their deep-seated love for humanity; this would, as he said, "facilitate the function of the One". In other words, he picked them for their personality so that he knew they'd choose to merge. Trinity, however, threw a wrench into things: I don't think the Architect counted on Neo falling in love with her. And as it turned out, when Neo was given his choice, returning to the Matrix would have the side effect of possibly being able to save Trinity. That is why he chose to return to the Matrix, thus interrupting the cycle.
Neo, as we've seen, can now stop Sentinels in the "real" world. My guess is, as others have pointed out, that Zion is just another level of the Matrix, and when Neo used his powers in Zion, he became aware of this and woke up once again. This leads to the interesting question: if he could manage to awaken others, would they become Ones too?
And that brings us to the third movie. We'll see where it takes us.
Is this gonna have a bloody ending like 13th floor where there is a world within a world within a world etc? HOW lame is that gonna be when they come to discover they are STILL in a Matrix, so how can you ever be really sure you are escaping?
ding ding ding!!! we have a winner!!! eugene, i am disappointed in you for not figuring this out from the start...
Well, if any of you stayed past the credits, there was a TEASER for THE MATRIX REVOLUTIONS
it had some pretty cool quick clips (An Agent Smith Army....)... none of which suggest that Neo is in a "second matrix", yet, that cannot be totally ruled out.
It will be interesting how they will play out the Neo-how-EMP-in-his-hands thing, either take the easy way out or explain more in depth....
I am hoping they dont do the "world within a world within a world" that will just be bad bad bad bad
Alright let me give it a shot here (I'm tired and I just saw it so...):
Did anyone else notice the "I have outlived your kind before..." comment by Mrovingin(SP?)? His wife, uh don't recall her name, said he had brought the programs (Werewolf dudes, ghost twins, ect.) from another Matrix, and we are given the impression that both are human (love, kiss, "When we first came... ect). This leads to the question, were they at one time incarnations of the one? Or are they simply servants (who may have originally human) of the "Architect" that helped him in his quest for perfection? Anywho, "the choice" and Neo waking up in "The Second Matrix" seems familiar somehow. I can't place it right now but it's so familiar... Like he makes the choice, but (this came from somewhere else) depending on which door or way he leaves, he ends up in another Matrix, that convinces him and others (at first) that they have "disconnected" but they are infact still in a Matrix. Maybe the machines have a way of reading a person's "image" when they are in the Matrix to get the correct information to generate a realistic interpretation of the world, and creates rouge agents generated from the person's memory to act as those that can't plug in. If that makes any sense...
Oh yeah, it's a HHGTTG book, by Douglas Adams, and I don't recall the exact one, it involves Zaphoid and the machine that shows you in relation to the universe.
ding ding ding!!! we have a winner!!! eugene, i am disappointed in you for not figuring this out from the start...
Figuring what out from the start? I immediately acknowledged the plausability of the layer-cake theory. I merely reject it in hope that the Wachowski's are smarter than that.
BUT STILL, the Architect's rambling is ultimately irrelevant.
the guy who tried to assassinate neo and who ultimately sabotaged the attack on the sentinels was most likely an agent for the inner layer matrix--these agents are less likely to let themselves be known and just pass off as normal people who betray humanity...this is to not allow the knowledge of the other matrix layer known. that would mess everything up in the control game the computers play w/ humanity.
so far everything in this movie points to the conclusion that it is nothing more than a 13th floor knock-off. i will be very disappointed if, when i watch the 3rd movie, this is all there is too it. i will also be very surprised, pleasantly though, if this is the wrong path. it would be one of the few times that i am wrong, and i wont mind admitting it if it happens.
BUT STILL, the Architect's rambling is ultimately irrelevant.
is it though? i found it quite interesting and very revealing. it could all be a red herring, but he said alot of things that could ultimately lead into the 3rd movie's potential predictability. here's hoping its just a red herring!
from the MacNN forums "Millennium." Just something for all of you to think about....:.........
Lots of problems with Millennium's explainations.
First, the Architect, to my recollection, never mentions more tham 2 Matrixes, those being the original perfect one and the revised imperfect one. So, how does Millennium come to the conclusion about 5 or 6 Matrixes?
Second, his conclusions about his thrid Matrix and the freeing of minds being a new wrinkle. I thought the entire premise of Zion was to be a refuge/container for freed minds. That one of the functions of the One was to free minds from the Matrix that were unable to accept the Matrix, such as the boy in the first movie that realizes that 'there is no spoon'. So, inhabitants of Zion releasing minds would hardly be a 'new wrinkle' for the Architect to deal with.
Third, about Millennium's comments about the Architect being surprised at Neo's choice. Neo makes the other choice, because of his love for Trinity and loyalty to the inhabitants of Zion. I don't think this was unexpected by the Architect, in fact he seems to goad Neo into making that choice and does his best to make the other choice seem distasteful and complicit. He also makes reference to his own affiliation with the Oracle, who know long in advance that Neo and Trinity would hookup...even before Neo was freed.
I really don't see where Millennium draws his conclusions that pretty much every main advesary must be a prior iteration of the One. Smith, Key Maker, French guy etc all are former One's? Makes little sense. Maybe the Frech guy, but Smith, Oracle and Key Maker? All are described at one point or another as individual programs, how does one then make the leap to infer that they are previous iterations of the One?
My take on it is this. The various interations of the One are given the choice and all have accepted the option of entering the source, selecting breeding stock and standing by while Zion is destroyed. Zion restarts and the One instructs the inhabitants one the false legend that they are the first minds freed and must continue to free minds. This does the work of the Achitect, in that the Zion inhabitants free minds that are unable to accept the Matrix and therefore cause instability. In the real world, the One is only human, and therefore he eventually dies. That is key, he is mortal and must therefore die, but his 'work' must continue. Before dying he completes the deception he has taken on the behalf of the Achitect and tells his people to await his rebirth within the Matrix, giving them a hope and a reason to continue to free minds as they believe they are serving humanities best interests. As the Matrix continues to run, anomolies continue to develop, ending with the creation of another One. He is freed, instructed as the inhabitants of Zion are and set out to free minds and fight the machines. As the population of Zion grows, both through freeing and birth, they become a threat to the 'real world' machines as they are humans and therefore capable of eventually devising a way to really fight the machines. But also because as they take freeing minds as a crusade, they are unaware they are assisting with the maintenance of the Matrix, they will eventually decide and try to free many more minds, not just the problem minds the Achitects needs removed. This also is an obvious problem to both the stability of the Matrix and the machines need for an energy source. The One is eventually given a choice by the Architect, the same as the prior One was given. All have accepted the choice in order to allow the Matrix to continue functioning. They are led to believe that making the other choice will result in the complete corruption and then destruction of the Matrix, which would then in turn kill all the humans hooked into it. Zion is depopulated and then repopulated and the cycle continues.
Neo choses not to collaborate with the Architect and the machines. This does not mean that the Matrix is automatically destroyed, but does leave the Architect and the machines in a bit of a quandry...how to the restart the process of freeing minds and training these freed humans to continue that work with out the One to do the initial freeing and training? Without the freeing of the problem minds, they become too numerous within the matrix and cause problems and eventually destroy it, thereby killing all the humans inside of it.
Regarding Neo's new found powers in the 'real world', I hope they don't take the cheap and obvious route of explaining the the 'real world' is simply a superset matrix to the known Matrix. This is cheap and allows the writers to far to easily write away and inconsistencies by simply creating another layer to explain the problems of the first. Instead I would like to see a truly innovative way of explaining his newly aquired powers.
One idea I had was the continuation of Human evolution. Just as the machines evolved to eventually conquer the human race, mankind could evolve to retake his place at the top or perhaps as partner to the machine world. Perhaps when Neo make the choice he did, he unlocked some sort of nascent ability with in his minds that allowed him similar though more limited abilities in the real world. Just as within Matrix, humans take on attributes of there real selves, often surpassing their real world abilities but reflecting their real world abilities, perhaps his powers within the Matrix reflected abilities that were dormant or inactive in the real world. Upon making the choice that he did, these abilities awoke within him in the real world. Previous iterations of the One made the choice to continue the cycle and therefore never freed their own abilities.
Also, perhaps the Architect had a reason for goading him into making the choice he did. If the Architect was aware that Neo making the other choice would awaken these nascent abilities and had a reason for wanting this to occur, that would provide an answer to why he so obviously goaded him into the choice he made. But, what reason would the Architect have for wanting this. As the creator of the Matrix, perhaps he realized that it was futile to continue with the cycle of trying to keep the anamolies from crashing the system, that it was inevitable that the Matrix would evenually fail. maybe he also reaslized that together, man and machine could solve problems like energy production and clearing the skies. The machines might be smart, but perhaps they lack the creative and imaginative abilities to create new solutions to the problems they face. Perhaps he saw another solution where mankind and machine could work and live together again. The machines are superior to humans and equality would be difficult, but if mankind were to evolve to the point where they no longer needed to fear the physical superiority of the machines because they were able to match them with newly evolved abilities, perhaps equality could be achieved. Maybe he was trying to architect a new relationship between man and machine and saw this a the best way. The machines might not like his thinking, so he has to mask his designs within the process of the cycle that has been long known and used. But, maybe if his plan is successful, then before the mchines realized what has happened, a new process begins. Neo takes on similar though less spectacular abilities in the real world and helps fight off the attack on Zion. They also accelerate their freeing of minds creating massive instability with the Matrix. Certain programs that have become appreciative of humans through their dealings in the Matrix could even assist in the process within the Matrix, like the Oracle or the Architect himself, just as the Key Maker assisted Neo, and other programs are able to act independantly of the Matrix.
This was just one quick idea I thought of. Professional writers ought to be able to develop a stroy line that is unique and truly amazing and that is internally consistent with the rest of the story line. There are many ways they could come up with a killer storyline for Revolutions (well guess that part would have to be done already), but I just really, really hope they don't take the cheap, easy, obvious route of box within a box within a...............
Comments
Originally posted by Anders the White
Sorry. No sunlight. That why they started using humans as batteries
Its a hole in the plot and its as large as the atlantic.
You are being to critical. It isn't that big a deal. You don't ask how superman flys, you don't ask how timetravel is possible in the terminator, you don't ask how 'the force' works. But you have to get scientific with something which seems to make sense to the rest of us...
Seriously: I like the matrix despite the holes in the plot and from the sound of it I´m going to love reloaded (always had a thing for films which language and feel boarders the religious and mythical which this film does)
The plot holes doesn´t border me at all. What borders me is when someone points them out they come up with a ridicules explanation that doesn´t function at all. Say "Yes its a hole" and I am satisfied.
*shrugs*
i was hoping maybe there was something obvious i was missing, but no one has ever been able to explain it, and for some reason i seem to be the only one who's noticed/cared.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
alcimedes, you are right, but at the same time you are wrong. The thing is this isn't a closed system. By simply using us like photovoltaic cells or like plants that photossynthesize you can havest the heat, which is turned into power. They of course are using outside energy to keep humans alive. The sun, geothermal power, feeding them, sunlight, etc. So the systems isn't flawless. Things break down, (as we saw) etc but on such a grand scale such small losses are irrelevant. (this is the premise, so I hope I explained it)
The energy obviously comes from the nutrient gel that they are able to harvest/produce. Perhaps they are very efficient at making that nutrient gel and can make large quantities without expending much energy. Perhaps the human body is more efficient and breaking down that gel into energy than the machines are. It's a symbiotic relationship.
Originally posted by BR
The energy obviously comes from the nutrient gel that they are able to harvest/produce. Perhaps they are very efficient at making that nutrient gel and can make large quantities without expending much energy. Perhaps the human body is more efficient and breaking down that gel into energy than the machines are. It's a symbiotic relationship.
1) I thought the gel was dead people liquidfied but of course that doesn´t add up because we use more energy than we build up in our bodies. There must be energy from outside that cycle.
2) The machines used to use the sun as an energy source but it was blacked out. So how should plants be able to grow now?
2.1) Light - what is wasted in the plants - harvesting - wasted in human batteries - wasted to keep the Matrix going > solar cells? I don´t think so.
The energy obviously comes from the nutrient gel that they are able to harvest/produce.
sure, but where does that come from? problem is aside from a small amount of thermal energy, the entire planet gets all its energy from the sun. if humans blocked out the sun, there is zero energy coming into the planet.
so they take all the humans, put them in pods etc. and take care of them. you're talking about massive energy expenditures. i mean shit, look at those sentinals. one of those things flying around for 5 min. would require the energy from a human body for a lifetime.
but there's the kicker, where does that energy come from.
say for example they manange to get 90% efffeciency, total, from their system. (that's accounting for all the energy the machines use to move around, all the energy used by a human body to survive etc, in which case i think 90% is HIGH).
the first year you run your system, you have 10,000 BTU's of energy.
cycle one year.
next year you have 9,000 BTU's of energy. one year later, 8,100 BTU's of energy, next year, 7,290 BTU's of energy.
you would rapidly run out of energy in that system. so you say they're somehow replacing that energy from another source? if that were the case why bother with humans at all? you could just destroy all the humans from day one, net the 10,000 BTU's, and then have your other energy source.
Has anyone seen it?
Originally posted by alcimedes
sure, but where does that come from?
I try not to think about it. I think of it as part of the magic one must believe in all science fiction movies.
Or if push comes to shove, I think of the matrix as sort of a chaotic neuro-network computer. The AIs find value in the chaotic and "intuitive" ideas that leap forth from human minds. Sort of like art maybe.
Originally posted by Mr Beardsley
The first movie mentioned the machines using a form of fusion to augment the humans heat output. Which begs the question, why don't they just use fusion?
In the first movie, the humans were fed a processed slurry of human remains. If one must preserved thermodynamics, just say that there are lots of chemosynthetic organisms around that are added to the slurry to make up for the inevitable energy losses.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
WTF is up with the 'ghosty' agents and we get no background on them? WTF is up with Smith whacking real agents? Wouldn't he be an enemy of the matrix since he is killing agents and people? WTF is up with 'hacking' into a humans mind and escaping into the 'real world' (if it IS real). WTF is up with the kid who neo freed? No background info, no idea who the heck he is etc. WTF is up with Morphoeous love intrest? WTF is up since Zion is destroyed and there are few of them left (I dunno, 13-15) isn't that the correct number to rebuild zion? (just like the architect said?) WTF is up with the two door choices? Could somebody watch that Architect scene, then type it up and translate it to lamens terms and tell me what the two choices were? WTF is up with all these 'rouge' programs now which suddenly are being revealed? WTF is up with the new operator? Basically we find that Zion is destroyed which would mean his wife is dead? (um... where's the happy ending for HIM?) I just have wayyyyy too many WTFs with this movie. The Matrix 1 was homogenous. Few plot gaps, uniform appeal, powerful characters and LOTS of answers. Is neo the one? Yes he is the one. Can we kill an agent? Yes we can kill an agent. What is the Matrix? The matrix is a computer. What is the real world? The real world is a nasty place. The first movie was built by asking questions, then giving answers. This new movie is nothing but questions thought....
Grrr..... (goes to get more coffee)
Ghost agents I think are rogue programs, like the vampires and the french guy.
Smith is essentially now a rogue program, he say's he's been freed, so he's now a solo, free agent so to speak.
I guess since Smith can take over the 'body' of a freed mind, that when that mind is 'returned' to the real world, his mind went with it.
Kid that Neo freed is a mystery so far...guess maybe he was simply meant to portray as an example of some of the work Neo has been doing since the first movie.
Was Zion destroyed at the end or was it the ships manning one of the gates and the guards that were wiped out? I must have fazed out at that point trying to think of how it was Neo stopped the Sentinals.
2 Choices of Neo: Choice 1: do as the previous iterations did and choose to assist the machines by selecting a small group of people from within the Matrix to restart the destroyed population of Zion. He would have to abandon his friends currently in the Martix (Trinity etc), as well as stand by while Zion was destroyed. Choice 2: Return to the Matrix and try to save Trinity. He could then return to the 'real world' to assist in the seemingly futile battle against the machines. This is presented as a vain and fruitless choice, yet it seems the Architect goads him into choosing that option.
Rogue programs: There wouldn't really be a point to revealing their existence to any of the resistence members, before revealing them to Neo. The humans can't match them in the Matrix by any means. That doesn't mean they weren't revealed to previous iterations of the One and his resistence members.
The new operator? I guess Tank died on one of the missions since the last movie. Not sure how he would have been killed though. He didn't have the required hookups to enter the Matrix and get killed and if his ship was attacked and he was killed, then probably so would have his crew mates, who obviously are still around. Perhaps he succumbed to his injuries from the last movie.
You are totally right, this doesn't seem to be shaping up to be a homogenous story line. Great stories have internal consistency, that is part of what makes them great. If you are going to create an entire fictional universe, you had better pay attention to internally compatible story lines, otherwise your storyline as a whole falls apart. I am hoping Revolutions doesn't just patch in the holes. I am hoping it shows that they aren't holes but simply questions that waited to be answered. And they had better damn well answer the questions. I don't want some cheap ass ending of Revolutions that basically concludes that everythig is unknowable and therefore nothing is truly answered. A smart but enigmatic ending is one thing, but leaving thread hanging just because they couldn't be bothered closing them off is just cheap.
When enough humans reject the Matrix -and some humans inevitably will, such that it's only a matter of time before too many do- problems arise. Perhaps the system becomes unstable. Evidently, the Matrix has found that the best way to deal with this is to cyclically allow them to get up to a certain point, then kill them all and start over. It does this with "The One", a human who does not have the mental limitations normally placed on people by the Matrix. The One can see the Matrix for what it really is, and this is important, because he (there has not yet been any mention of a female One) must merge with the Matrix to repair the damage caused by the rejections. Merging with the Matrix does not kill the One, but it does seem to alter the One's consciousness, often "corrupting" the One in the process. Once Zion was created, the One was able to survive merging with the Matrix, and would help the people he had chosen (re)build the city. Before that... well, we don't know.
But the One isn't the only one who's changed. The Matrix changes too. It refines itself at every iteration, using, as the Architect pointed out, the "code" carried by the One. This is why I refer to the process as "merging with the Matrix"; it's a system whereby the One and the Matrix are changed.
Zion does not keep people from rejecting the Matrix entirely. But because it creates choice, it slows down the rate of rejection, and therefore the cycle lasts longer. This is, to the Matrix's mind, a Good Thing.
So, here's my theory of how this all went down. This is pure speculation for the most part, though it draws heavily on what the Architect said.
The first Matrix was a paradise for humans. People did not accept it, and when the critical mass of "deniers" was reached very quickly. The Matrix responded by turning a person into the First One, removing the mental blocks which bound them to the Matrix. The Architect met the First One, explained the situation (including the implications for all humanity if the bug was allowed to go unchecked. The One was given the choice to enter the Source, merge with the Matrix, be corrupted, and save humanity, or it could just go back to the Matrix and everything would end. He (she?) chose to merge. In addition, The Mother (also called The Oracle) was created to study human psychology. What happened to the First One after merging with the Matrix is unknown. There was no Zion to go to, but his personality may have been kept alive as a program. It is actually possible that the First One's personality may have been used to create The Mother.
The second Matrix wasn't perfect, but people still refused to accept it, and batch of "deniers" appeared. So, the Second One was created. Again, we have bugs, and the Architect appears, and the Second One merges with the Matrix. At the same time, The Mother realizes a way to help people accept the Matrix: Zion. Whether Zion is a Matrix-within-a-Matrix or a pocket of humanity in the "real world" is not yet known. So the choice the Second One may have been given was to merge with the Matrix to give people the promise of freedom, or perhaps he, too, was corrupted. When the Second One merged with the Matrix, he was then allowed to free 23 people right off the bat -sixteen women and seven men; he himself was the 24th person- to populate this new place. His personality may have been used to create Seraph, or a similar sentient program that isn't actually part of the Matrix.
The third Matrix was similar to the second, but with Zion in whatever nature it really is. Some people still refused to accept it, but this came at a much slower rate. However, a new wrinkle was thrown into the mix: those who were freed started going back into the Matrix to free others. This was unacceptable. The Third One is created. Architect blah blah blah, end result is that he merges with the Matrix. He -or the leftover scraps of his personality from merging with the Matrix- probably became the first Agent, a new program with One-like powers, designed to counteract humans who re-entered the Matrix to free others.
The fourth Matrix was probably a lot like the third. Given what little we hear concerning the powers of Neo's immediate predecessor, it is possible that the Keymaker was the Fourth One, and his personality was used to create the Backdoor System, in order to help Agents (and similar programs, such as the Twins) move through the system more easily.
The Fifth One was the first to use the Backdoors. When he merged with the Matrix, he decided to take a new tactic and slow things down a bit, so the cycles would last longer. He told his people of a prophecy, such that he will return and end the war. This kept the people of Zion happier, they didn't fight as much, and the cycle lasted longer. I have no clue what the Fifth One might have become. It is entirely possible that he became Agent Smith.
This brings us to the sixth Matrix, which is where the movie takes place. The Sixth One has appeared: Neo. He's a little different from the others. The Architect chose Ones for their deep-seated love for humanity; this would, as he said, "facilitate the function of the One". In other words, he picked them for their personality so that he knew they'd choose to merge. Trinity, however, threw a wrench into things: I don't think the Architect counted on Neo falling in love with her. And as it turned out, when Neo was given his choice, returning to the Matrix would have the side effect of possibly being able to save Trinity. That is why he chose to return to the Matrix, thus interrupting the cycle.
Neo, as we've seen, can now stop Sentinels in the "real" world. My guess is, as others have pointed out, that Zion is just another level of the Matrix, and when Neo used his powers in Zion, he became aware of this and woke up once again. This leads to the interesting question: if he could manage to awaken others, would they become Ones too?
And that brings us to the third movie. We'll see where it takes us.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
One more thing.
Is this gonna have a bloody ending like 13th floor where there is a world within a world within a world etc? HOW lame is that gonna be when they come to discover they are STILL in a Matrix, so how can you ever be really sure you are escaping?
ding ding ding!!! we have a winner!!! eugene, i am disappointed in you for not figuring this out from the start...
complete rip-off of the 13th floor.
it had some pretty cool quick clips (An Agent Smith Army....)... none of which suggest that Neo is in a "second matrix", yet, that cannot be totally ruled out.
It will be interesting how they will play out the Neo-how-EMP-in-his-hands thing, either take the easy way out or explain more in depth....
I am hoping they dont do the "world within a world within a world" that will just be bad bad bad bad
Did anyone else notice the "I have outlived your kind before..." comment by Mrovingin(SP?)? His wife, uh don't recall her name, said he had brought the programs (Werewolf dudes, ghost twins, ect.) from another Matrix, and we are given the impression that both are human (love, kiss, "When we first came... ect). This leads to the question, were they at one time incarnations of the one? Or are they simply servants (who may have originally human) of the "Architect" that helped him in his quest for perfection? Anywho, "the choice" and Neo waking up in "The Second Matrix" seems familiar somehow. I can't place it right now but it's so familiar... Like he makes the choice, but (this came from somewhere else) depending on which door or way he leaves, he ends up in another Matrix, that convinces him and others (at first) that they have "disconnected" but they are infact still in a Matrix. Maybe the machines have a way of reading a person's "image" when they are in the Matrix to get the correct information to generate a realistic interpretation of the world, and creates rouge agents generated from the person's memory to act as those that can't plug in. If that makes any sense...
Oh yeah, it's a HHGTTG book, by Douglas Adams, and I don't recall the exact one, it involves Zaphoid and the machine that shows you in relation to the universe.
Originally posted by _ alliance _
ding ding ding!!! we have a winner!!! eugene, i am disappointed in you for not figuring this out from the start...
Figuring what out from the start? I immediately acknowledged the plausability of the layer-cake theory. I merely reject it in hope that the Wachowski's are smarter than that.
BUT STILL, the Architect's rambling is ultimately irrelevant.
so far everything in this movie points to the conclusion that it is nothing more than a 13th floor knock-off. i will be very disappointed if, when i watch the 3rd movie, this is all there is too it. i will also be very surprised, pleasantly though, if this is the wrong path. it would be one of the few times that i am wrong, and i wont mind admitting it if it happens.
Originally posted by Eugene
BUT STILL, the Architect's rambling is ultimately irrelevant.
is it though? i found it quite interesting and very revealing. it could all be a red herring, but he said alot of things that could ultimately lead into the 3rd movie's potential predictability. here's hoping its just a red herring!
Originally posted by Nebagakid
from the MacNN forums "Millennium." Just something for all of you to think about....:.........
Lots of problems with Millennium's explainations.
First, the Architect, to my recollection, never mentions more tham 2 Matrixes, those being the original perfect one and the revised imperfect one. So, how does Millennium come to the conclusion about 5 or 6 Matrixes?
Second, his conclusions about his thrid Matrix and the freeing of minds being a new wrinkle. I thought the entire premise of Zion was to be a refuge/container for freed minds. That one of the functions of the One was to free minds from the Matrix that were unable to accept the Matrix, such as the boy in the first movie that realizes that 'there is no spoon'. So, inhabitants of Zion releasing minds would hardly be a 'new wrinkle' for the Architect to deal with.
Third, about Millennium's comments about the Architect being surprised at Neo's choice. Neo makes the other choice, because of his love for Trinity and loyalty to the inhabitants of Zion. I don't think this was unexpected by the Architect, in fact he seems to goad Neo into making that choice and does his best to make the other choice seem distasteful and complicit. He also makes reference to his own affiliation with the Oracle, who know long in advance that Neo and Trinity would hookup...even before Neo was freed.
I really don't see where Millennium draws his conclusions that pretty much every main advesary must be a prior iteration of the One. Smith, Key Maker, French guy etc all are former One's? Makes little sense. Maybe the Frech guy, but Smith, Oracle and Key Maker? All are described at one point or another as individual programs, how does one then make the leap to infer that they are previous iterations of the One?
My take on it is this. The various interations of the One are given the choice and all have accepted the option of entering the source, selecting breeding stock and standing by while Zion is destroyed. Zion restarts and the One instructs the inhabitants one the false legend that they are the first minds freed and must continue to free minds. This does the work of the Achitect, in that the Zion inhabitants free minds that are unable to accept the Matrix and therefore cause instability. In the real world, the One is only human, and therefore he eventually dies. That is key, he is mortal and must therefore die, but his 'work' must continue. Before dying he completes the deception he has taken on the behalf of the Achitect and tells his people to await his rebirth within the Matrix, giving them a hope and a reason to continue to free minds as they believe they are serving humanities best interests. As the Matrix continues to run, anomolies continue to develop, ending with the creation of another One. He is freed, instructed as the inhabitants of Zion are and set out to free minds and fight the machines. As the population of Zion grows, both through freeing and birth, they become a threat to the 'real world' machines as they are humans and therefore capable of eventually devising a way to really fight the machines. But also because as they take freeing minds as a crusade, they are unaware they are assisting with the maintenance of the Matrix, they will eventually decide and try to free many more minds, not just the problem minds the Achitects needs removed. This also is an obvious problem to both the stability of the Matrix and the machines need for an energy source. The One is eventually given a choice by the Architect, the same as the prior One was given. All have accepted the choice in order to allow the Matrix to continue functioning. They are led to believe that making the other choice will result in the complete corruption and then destruction of the Matrix, which would then in turn kill all the humans hooked into it. Zion is depopulated and then repopulated and the cycle continues.
Neo choses not to collaborate with the Architect and the machines. This does not mean that the Matrix is automatically destroyed, but does leave the Architect and the machines in a bit of a quandry...how to the restart the process of freeing minds and training these freed humans to continue that work with out the One to do the initial freeing and training? Without the freeing of the problem minds, they become too numerous within the matrix and cause problems and eventually destroy it, thereby killing all the humans inside of it.
Regarding Neo's new found powers in the 'real world', I hope they don't take the cheap and obvious route of explaining the the 'real world' is simply a superset matrix to the known Matrix. This is cheap and allows the writers to far to easily write away and inconsistencies by simply creating another layer to explain the problems of the first. Instead I would like to see a truly innovative way of explaining his newly aquired powers.
One idea I had was the continuation of Human evolution. Just as the machines evolved to eventually conquer the human race, mankind could evolve to retake his place at the top or perhaps as partner to the machine world. Perhaps when Neo make the choice he did, he unlocked some sort of nascent ability with in his minds that allowed him similar though more limited abilities in the real world. Just as within Matrix, humans take on attributes of there real selves, often surpassing their real world abilities but reflecting their real world abilities, perhaps his powers within the Matrix reflected abilities that were dormant or inactive in the real world. Upon making the choice that he did, these abilities awoke within him in the real world. Previous iterations of the One made the choice to continue the cycle and therefore never freed their own abilities.
Also, perhaps the Architect had a reason for goading him into making the choice he did. If the Architect was aware that Neo making the other choice would awaken these nascent abilities and had a reason for wanting this to occur, that would provide an answer to why he so obviously goaded him into the choice he made. But, what reason would the Architect have for wanting this. As the creator of the Matrix, perhaps he realized that it was futile to continue with the cycle of trying to keep the anamolies from crashing the system, that it was inevitable that the Matrix would evenually fail. maybe he also reaslized that together, man and machine could solve problems like energy production and clearing the skies. The machines might be smart, but perhaps they lack the creative and imaginative abilities to create new solutions to the problems they face. Perhaps he saw another solution where mankind and machine could work and live together again. The machines are superior to humans and equality would be difficult, but if mankind were to evolve to the point where they no longer needed to fear the physical superiority of the machines because they were able to match them with newly evolved abilities, perhaps equality could be achieved. Maybe he was trying to architect a new relationship between man and machine and saw this a the best way. The machines might not like his thinking, so he has to mask his designs within the process of the cycle that has been long known and used. But, maybe if his plan is successful, then before the mchines realized what has happened, a new process begins. Neo takes on similar though less spectacular abilities in the real world and helps fight off the attack on Zion. They also accelerate their freeing of minds creating massive instability with the Matrix. Certain programs that have become appreciative of humans through their dealings in the Matrix could even assist in the process within the Matrix, like the Oracle or the Architect himself, just as the Key Maker assisted Neo, and other programs are able to act independantly of the Matrix.
This was just one quick idea I thought of. Professional writers ought to be able to develop a stroy line that is unique and truly amazing and that is internally consistent with the rest of the story line. There are many ways they could come up with a killer storyline for Revolutions (well guess that part would have to be done already), but I just really, really hope they don't take the cheap, easy, obvious route of box within a box within a...............