Dusty loses Game 6, not the fan. Not even Alex Gonzalez...
... keeping Prior in after the first double was a total brain-fart by Baker. It was obvious to anyone watching that Prior was losing the bite on his breaking pitches and was approaching a count of 115 or so.
Moogs, totally disagree. You don't pull an ace because he gives up a lead-off hit, espcially if he has a 3 run lead. You leave him in to finish what he started. Dusty did exactly the same thing last year. He hasn't learned anything.
Moogs agree with you with a twist though. Dusty should've gone to the mound to settle his pitcher especially after the error. Dusty was right in pulling him when he did(damned if he didn't, damned if he did), but he should've:
a)gone to the mound to settle his pitcher down
b)bought the bullpen more time by going out.
The curse is indeed alive. With all due respect to the Yankee fans...a Yankees-Marlins series will suck. Let's hope at least the Cubs pull it off.
Moogs agree with you with a twist though. Dusty should've gone to the mound to settle his pitcher especially after the error. Dusty was right in pulling him when he did(damned if he didn't, damned if he did), but he should've:
a)gone to the mound to settle his pitcher down
b)bought the bullpen more time by going out.
The curse is indeed alive. With all due respect to the Yankee fans...a Yankees-Marlins series will suck. Let's hope at least the Cubs pull it off.
rothschild (pitching coach) went to the mound, i forget if it was after the walk (after the foul ball) or the error, so the next visit would necessitate a change.
You're right Superkarate, he did go to the mound. By the way, Eugene, Dusty didn't replace Prior after just giving up a single. He was pulled after a 2 run double with the score tied 3-3.
Prior, though not as sharp as earlier in the game, is still better than a sharp reliever..... may not show it on his "pure stuff" but as far as intensity, heart, and desire....prior would want it more....and would fight for it more.
Never underestimate a starting pitcher's will to win and finish what he started.
I hated being taken out of games, and everyone knew it...... I never left without a fight too and maybe thats why i was taken out very few times.
I'd like to see Cubs vs Yankees as well. I don't even consider the marlins a major league team.
Prior was rattled and tired. His fastball wasn't as fast and his breaking pitches weren't breaking. It's not about questioning his will or heart. It's about common baseball sense. These are major league hitters. Again, a manager is damned if he pulls the pitcher, and damned if he doesn't in that situation.
If anything Dusty waited too long to get the bullpen going.
You're right Superkarate, he did go to the mound. By the way, Eugene, Dusty didn't replace Prior after just giving up a single. He was pulled after a 2 run double with the score tied 3-3.
Moogs said he should have been replaced after the lead-off hit. That's what I was talking about. But even after it was 3-3, I would have left him in. It's his game to lose. Even if he does lose, they have a mulligan the very next day. All this does is take just a little bit more energy out of the bullpen for tomorrow in addition to rattling them.
I'd like to see Cubs vs Yankees as well. I don't even consider the marlins a major league team.
The Marlins players + coaches are a real team, but the ownership isn't. The fans down there don't deserve the Marlins either. I like the Marlins as a team, it's too bad nobody in Florida really does.
But even after it was 3-3, I would have left him in. It's his game to lose. Even if he does lose, they have a mulligan the very next day. All this does is take just a little bit more energy out of the bullpen for tomorrow in addition to rattling them.
I disagree. A manager does what he thinks he needs to do to win a game. It's the playoffs and playoffs are not about individual acomplishments. It;s NOT "Prior's game to lose". It's a SERIES to win. It's the team's game to lose and the manager is paid to make sure they don't. Managers are paid to make decisions based on the best odds. You're trying to close a series and you have an inexperienced pitcher that's tired, rattled(unlucky), throwing breaking balls that don't break, and not fooling any hitters. There is absolutely no way you can blame a manager for that. That's just silly. Dusty made the logical decision to bring in a fresh arm. In fact we could argue he waited too long to pull Prior and/or get the bullpen going.
What are the best odds in this case? You bring in the "flamefighters". A fresh arm with experience in tight situations like relievers have. It doesn't matter if the bullpen uses up some energy considering there's gonna be more fresh arms available for a seventh game: starting pitchers that won't see action until game 3 or 4 of the WS.
He's professional enough to overcome being rattled. He's their #2 starter after all...and some would even say #1.
He wasn't out of gas. He only gave up two real hits...one to Pudge, and the other after being "rattled." Sorry, that's not enough for me to yank him.
Quote:
What are the best odds in this case? You bring in the "flamefighters". A fresh arm with experience in tight situations like relievers have. It doesn't matter if the bullpen uses up some energy considering there's gonna be more fresh arms available for a seventh game: starting pitchers that won't see action until game 3 or 4 of the WS.
This is the Cubs bullpen we're talking about. Farnsworth sucks. Remlinger's the only guy Dusty can really rely on.
Sorry, but to me the "finish what you started" thing is pride taking precedence over common sense. I understand *why* Dusty left him in there. And I suppose it's fair to assume most managers might've left him in for at least one batter after the lead-off double, but...
... to me you put the team before a pitcher's pride. Any gamer is going to say "Oh yeah, I've got enough in the tank for one or two more hitters coach", and any gamer will want to stay in as long as you let him. That's no excuse for actually letting them stay in.
It's the manager's job to keep a close eye on the pitches and with the help of the pitching coach, ascertain how wise it is to leave someone in there. Especially with a high pitch count and a small lead.
I don't know. Maybe it's the curse of Bernie Mac that lead to the 8 runs but there's a good chance, had he taken him out, the Marlins might've only gotten a couple instead of 8.
Actually, there's a new concourse at Fenway Park. I saw it for the first time on Saturday.
The new Red Sox owners have done a lot of work to make Fenway a better place. The seats on the Green Monster, the new concourse, improvements of Yawkey Way, etc.
For next year, they plan on putting seats, basically another deck, on top of the right field grandstand as well as taking out the '600 Club' which was a John Harrington abomination in favor of actual seats.
Of course, Fenway Park is a very old ballpark. The other renovations they are planning (ones to current seating areas) will have to take place in sections and be mainly done during the offseason, kind of like what they did to Yankee Stadium to bring it up to par.
There was an article recently in the WSJ about the future of Fenway. (Sorry, you can't access it without a subscription.) The Sons of Sam Horn discussed the article here. It's not certain Red Sox ownership is going to follow through on the renovations.
... to me you put the team before a pitcher's pride. Any gamer is going to say "Oh yeah, I've got enough in the tank for one or two more hitters coach", and any gamer will want to stay in as long as you let him. That's no excuse for actually letting them stay in.
The bullpen guys gave up more runs than Prior did. It takes one or two batters for bullpen guys to get their bearings. Dusty should have left him in. End of story. He should have left Russ in in 2002. End of story.
Quote:
It's the manager's job to keep a close eye on the pitches and with the help of the pitching coach, ascertain how wise it is to leave someone in there. Especially with a high pitch count and a small lead.
Prior goes routinely over 130 pitches. He wasn't anywhere near exhausted, even with 100 pitches already.
Quote:
I don't know. Maybe it's the curse of Bernie Mac that lead to the 8 runs but there's a good chance, had he taken him out, the Marlins might've only gotten a couple instead of 8.
It's because Dusty took Prior out that 8 runs scoredWhen Dusty took Prior out, he had given up three hits...big deal. The situation was 1 out and a man on first at that point. I can understand Dusty wanting to take prior out if there were men in scoring position, but there weren't.
I don't think Prior would've given up fewer than four or five runs, had he stayed in the whole time. They were hitting him hard. Also, I doubt he's pitched anywhere near 130 pitches in 45-50 degree weather, which is a lot different than doing it in 75 degree weather...
...all water under the bridge.
The good news is my woman's sister-in-law had season tickets and bought the playoff package... she had a spare ticket tonight so the little woman is on her way down to Wrigley as we write. Me, I get to sit home with leftover pizza and the dog to watch on Fox.
Comments
"the wind didn't blow tonight at wrigley....it sucked"
... keeping Prior in after the first double was a total brain-fart by Baker. It was obvious to anyone watching that Prior was losing the bite on his breaking pitches and was approaching a count of 115 or so.
Bad management. Period. End of story.
a)gone to the mound to settle his pitcher down
b)bought the bullpen more time by going out.
The curse is indeed alive. With all due respect to the Yankee fans...a Yankees-Marlins series will suck. Let's hope at least the Cubs pull it off.
Originally posted by Gilsch
Moogs agree with you with a twist though. Dusty should've gone to the mound to settle his pitcher especially after the error. Dusty was right in pulling him when he did(damned if he didn't, damned if he did), but he should've:
a)gone to the mound to settle his pitcher down
b)bought the bullpen more time by going out.
The curse is indeed alive. With all due respect to the Yankee fans...a Yankees-Marlins series will suck. Let's hope at least the Cubs pull it off.
rothschild (pitching coach) went to the mound, i forget if it was after the walk (after the foul ball) or the error, so the next visit would necessitate a change.
Prior, though not as sharp as earlier in the game, is still better than a sharp reliever..... may not show it on his "pure stuff" but as far as intensity, heart, and desire....prior would want it more....and would fight for it more.
Never underestimate a starting pitcher's will to win and finish what he started.
I hated being taken out of games, and everyone knew it...... I never left without a fight too and maybe thats why i was taken out very few times.
I'd like to see Cubs vs Yankees as well. I don't even consider the marlins a major league team.
If anything Dusty waited too long to get the bullpen going.
Originally posted by Gilsch
You're right Superkarate, he did go to the mound. By the way, Eugene, Dusty didn't replace Prior after just giving up a single. He was pulled after a 2 run double with the score tied 3-3.
Moogs said he should have been replaced after the lead-off hit. That's what I was talking about. But even after it was 3-3, I would have left him in. It's his game to lose. Even if he does lose, they have a mulligan the very next day. All this does is take just a little bit more energy out of the bullpen for tomorrow in addition to rattling them.
Originally posted by applenut
I'd like to see Cubs vs Yankees as well. I don't even consider the marlins a major league team.
The Marlins players + coaches are a real team, but the ownership isn't. The fans down there don't deserve the Marlins either. I like the Marlins as a team, it's too bad nobody in Florida really does.
Originally posted by Eugene
But even after it was 3-3, I would have left him in. It's his game to lose. Even if he does lose, they have a mulligan the very next day. All this does is take just a little bit more energy out of the bullpen for tomorrow in addition to rattling them.
I disagree. A manager does what he thinks he needs to do to win a game. It's the playoffs and playoffs are not about individual acomplishments. It;s NOT "Prior's game to lose". It's a SERIES to win. It's the team's game to lose and the manager is paid to make sure they don't. Managers are paid to make decisions based on the best odds. You're trying to close a series and you have an inexperienced pitcher that's tired, rattled(unlucky), throwing breaking balls that don't break, and not fooling any hitters. There is absolutely no way you can blame a manager for that. That's just silly. Dusty made the logical decision to bring in a fresh arm. In fact we could argue he waited too long to pull Prior and/or get the bullpen going.
What are the best odds in this case? You bring in the "flamefighters". A fresh arm with experience in tight situations like relievers have. It doesn't matter if the bullpen uses up some energy considering there's gonna be more fresh arms available for a seventh game: starting pitchers that won't see action until game 3 or 4 of the WS.
Originally posted by Gilsch
I disagree.
He's professional enough to overcome being rattled. He's their #2 starter after all...and some would even say #1.
He wasn't out of gas. He only gave up two real hits...one to Pudge, and the other after being "rattled." Sorry, that's not enough for me to yank him.
What are the best odds in this case? You bring in the "flamefighters". A fresh arm with experience in tight situations like relievers have. It doesn't matter if the bullpen uses up some energy considering there's gonna be more fresh arms available for a seventh game: starting pitchers that won't see action until game 3 or 4 of the WS.
This is the Cubs bullpen we're talking about. Farnsworth sucks. Remlinger's the only guy Dusty can really rely on.
... to me you put the team before a pitcher's pride. Any gamer is going to say "Oh yeah, I've got enough in the tank for one or two more hitters coach", and any gamer will want to stay in as long as you let him. That's no excuse for actually letting them stay in.
It's the manager's job to keep a close eye on the pitches and with the help of the pitching coach, ascertain how wise it is to leave someone in there. Especially with a high pitch count and a small lead.
I don't know. Maybe it's the curse of Bernie Mac that lead to the 8 runs but there's a good chance, had he taken him out, the Marlins might've only gotten a couple instead of 8.
Originally posted by Fran441
Actually, there's a new concourse at Fenway Park. I saw it for the first time on Saturday.
The new Red Sox owners have done a lot of work to make Fenway a better place. The seats on the Green Monster, the new concourse, improvements of Yawkey Way, etc.
For next year, they plan on putting seats, basically another deck, on top of the right field grandstand as well as taking out the '600 Club' which was a John Harrington abomination in favor of actual seats.
Of course, Fenway Park is a very old ballpark. The other renovations they are planning (ones to current seating areas) will have to take place in sections and be mainly done during the offseason, kind of like what they did to Yankee Stadium to bring it up to par.
There was an article recently in the WSJ about the future of Fenway. (Sorry, you can't access it without a subscription.) The Sons of Sam Horn discussed the article here. It's not certain Red Sox ownership is going to follow through on the renovations.
Originally posted by Moogs
... to me you put the team before a pitcher's pride. Any gamer is going to say "Oh yeah, I've got enough in the tank for one or two more hitters coach", and any gamer will want to stay in as long as you let him. That's no excuse for actually letting them stay in.
The bullpen guys gave up more runs than Prior did. It takes one or two batters for bullpen guys to get their bearings. Dusty should have left him in. End of story. He should have left Russ in in 2002. End of story.
It's the manager's job to keep a close eye on the pitches and with the help of the pitching coach, ascertain how wise it is to leave someone in there. Especially with a high pitch count and a small lead.
Prior goes routinely over 130 pitches. He wasn't anywhere near exhausted, even with 100 pitches already.
I don't know. Maybe it's the curse of Bernie Mac that lead to the 8 runs but there's a good chance, had he taken him out, the Marlins might've only gotten a couple instead of 8.
It's because Dusty took Prior out that 8 runs scoredWhen Dusty took Prior out, he had given up three hits...big deal. The situation was 1 out and a man on first at that point. I can understand Dusty wanting to take prior out if there were men in scoring position, but there weren't.
Brian Banks: "You can bet that game will be on ESPN Classic."
Andy Fox: "Yeah, I think it's on at midnight."
Heh.
...all water under the bridge.
The good news is my woman's sister-in-law had season tickets and bought the playoff package... she had a spare ticket tonight so the little woman is on her way down to Wrigley as we write. Me, I get to sit home with leftover pizza and the dog to watch on Fox.
(the only reason felix heridia is still in baseball, is because he's a lefty, yah?)