Dean: Give me guns and Confederate flags!

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Billie Bob needs Democratic help for his trailer



Seems Dean is in a bit of a stew for repeatedly courting what are potentially racist, white voters down in the South. When you add his perfect rating from the NRA and his current inability to generate minority support, it looks pretty bad.



Kerry hasn't caught fire, and people are already saying Clark who? So what is going to happen?



Nick
«13456789

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 175
    maybe we should just hold the coronation of president bush and be done with it.



    or we could just let the process take place.
  • Reply 2 of 175
    Instead of encouraging this shoddy bit of dem-baiting can I hijack this thread to ask for some insight into the history and meaning associated with this flag.



    As a european I think that the flag is visually very cool, and I associate it with certain types of music (and the Dukes of Hazzard). I don't get strongly negative vibes from it, so what am I missing? How did it become a symbol for racism, at least in some people's eyes?
  • Reply 3 of 175
    akumulatorakumulator Posts: 1,111member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by stupider...likeafox

    Instead of encouraging this shoddy bit of dem-baiting can I hijack this thread to ask for some insight into the history and meaning associated with this flag.



    As a european I think that the flag is visually very cool, and I associate it with certain types of music (and the Dukes of Hazzard). I don't get strongly negative vibes from it, so what am I missing? How did it become a symbol for racism, at least in some people's eyes?




    It goes back to the American Civil War when the Confederacy fought to keep slavery.
  • Reply 4 of 175
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,215member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by stupider...likeafox

    Instead of encouraging this shoddy bit of dem-baiting can I hijack this thread to ask for some insight into the history and meaning associated with this flag.



    As a european I think that the flag is visually very cool, and I associate it with certain types of music (and the Dukes of Hazzard). I don't get strongly negative vibes from it, so what am I missing? How did it become a symbol for racism, at least in some people's eyes?






    The Confederacy was based on seceeding states that wanted to uphold their use of Slavery for labor. They also had a severe dislike for Central Government and preferred the rights of individual states as paramount. Even if the Confederacy had won the Civil War it is most likely to me that they would have never survived because they expoused the Rebel idiom and Rebels don't get along well with each other when disagreements happen.



    Dean is making a huge political gaffe here. There are not enough "Confederate Flag" loving people to counter the negative feelings this will engender. Gephardt is jumping all over this one with both feet.



    I was eyeballing Dean as a potential but unfortunately I get a bad feeling about this. I don't know if I can lend support to Dean.
  • Reply 5 of 175
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    the sad part is no one cared when he said it during a non-election year.



    more politics as usual.
  • Reply 6 of 175
    akumulatorakumulator Posts: 1,111member
    I think he was simply generalizing a group of people... the type of people who have those stickers on their trucks, not supporting the flag itself. There probably was still a better way to say it, but it doesn't seem like something so severe to completely discredit him as a viable and potentially great Democratic candidate. I too am still trying to make up my mind about who to support...



    Quote:

    Spokesman Jay Carson said Dean was trying to explain that Democrats need to broaden their appeal to Southern men, who in recent years have voted Republican in growing numbers. Carson said Dean has been using the flag line since he started campaigning, and that his rivals misconstrued it as support for the Confederate banner.



  • Reply 7 of 175
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    Billie Bob needs Democratic help for his trailer



    Seems Dean is in a bit of a stew for repeatedly courting what are potentially racist, white voters down in the South. When you add his perfect rating from the NRA and his current inability to generate minority support, it looks pretty bad.



    Kerry hasn't caught fire, and people are already saying Clark who? So what is going to happen?



    Nick




    Deans Press Release on the Subject:



    "We have working white families in the South voting for tax cuts for the richest one percent while their children remain with no health care," said Dean. "The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if Southern white working families and African-American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR."





    You know, I'm a long-time Republican and conservative. This is exactly what I fear...if the demos on this board are willing to diss this fellow and continue to harbor bigotry towards the white south, well I'm ALL for it...



    Until the party returns to FDR's vision, it will languish in bitter division..
  • Reply 8 of 175
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Having grown up in Alabama, I can say the the confederate flag carries a kind of shit-kicking gool ol' boy vibe for most of the southerners that might display it as a bumper sticker. That is, not explicitly racist, more of a "I'm a country music lovin', shotgun owin', cat fish eatin' son of the south like my daddy and his daddy afor 'em. Ya'll don't like it you can take your Yankee finger waggin' and shove it."



    The trouble starts when black southerners make their feelings known about this vestage of the slave holding Confederacy, and white southerners get their back up about being told what they can and cannot do. In this regard there really is a racist edge to the anger, but more along the lines of "I don't like black folk telling me I can't celebrate my heritage (or pretty much telling me anything else)" rather than "I am pro-slavery and regard African-Americans as sub-human".



    I'm not making excuses for what is clearly a provocation in the eyes of many, if not most, black Americans, but non-southerners frequently misjudge the role of racism in southern life. It's been called, rightly, an Afro-celtic culture, and there is an ease and familiarity in a lot of black/white relations that I haven't seen so much up "North".
  • Reply 9 of 175
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    The Confederacy was based on seceeding states that wanted to uphold their use of Slavery for labor. They also had a severe dislike for Central Government and preferred the rights of individual states as paramount.



    I was aware that the confederate flag represented the south in the Civil War, I just wasn't aware that the flag itself was tied in so strongly to racism in the way that the Swastika represents Nazism (and therefore anti-semitism).



    I suppose that it comes from the fact that I don't really believe that the South were fighting to keep blacks enslaved and the North fighting to free them. Call me cynical, but human rights aren't what wars are fought over, money and power, on the other hand, are.



    Your comment about rebels, and anti-authoritarianism in general, being associated with the flag seems interesting. I assume that is what the set-designers of the Dukes of Hazzard were aiming for.



    So is there perhaps just a big overlap of the rebel/racist groups? Are there any African-American 'rebels' adopting the flag? Or would that just be asking for a lynching from one group and ostracism from the other?
  • Reply 10 of 175
    Quote:

    Originally posted by addabox

    Having grown up in Alabama, I can say the the confederate flag carries a kind of shit-kicking gool ol' boy vibe for most of the southerners that might display it as a bumper sticker. That is, not explicitly racist, more of a "I'm a country music lovin', shotgun owin', cat fish eatin' son of the south like my daddy and his daddy afor 'em. Ya'll don't like it you can take your Yankee finger waggin' and shove it."



    The trouble starts when black southerners make their feelings known about this vestage of the slave holding Confederacy, and white southerners get their back up about being told what they can and cannot due. In this regard their really is a racist edge, but more along the lines of "I don't like black folk telling me I can't celebrate my heritage (or pretty much telling me anything else)" rather than "I am pro-slavery and regard african-americans as sub-human".



    I'm not making excuses for what is clearly a provocation in the eyes of many, if not most, black americans, but non-southerners frequently mis-judge the role of racism in southern life. It's been called, rightly, an Afro-celtic culture, and there is an ease and familiarity in a lot of black/white relations that I haven't seen so much up "North".




    Exactly. I'm a Californian who lived in the South (Oklahoma) for ten years, upon my return to California I was startled by the west coast stereotypes of black-white relations in the South. In fact, I found the Southern culture (white and black) to be far more accepting, sharing, and mutually supporting than the divisive racialist politics here in Calif.



    My wife, ironically, with her country accent related far more easily with other african-americans and made most of her friends from that community - especially other blacks who also hailed from the South.



    Till then, I'm counting on democratic yankee bigotry to deliver the southern votes to the Republicans.
  • Reply 11 of 175
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,215member
    Quote:

    The trouble starts when black southerners make their feelings known about this vestage of the slave holding Confederacy, and white southerners get their back up about being told what they can and cannot do. In this regard there really is a racist edge to the anger, but more along the lines of "I don't like black folk telling me I can't celebrate my heritage (or pretty much telling me anything else)" rather than "I am pro-slavery and regard African-Americans as sub-human".



    or



    The trouble starts when Jews make their feelings known about this vestage of the Nazis, and Nazi Germans get their back up about being told what they can and cannot do. In this regard there really is a racist edge to the anger, but more along the lines of "I don't like jew folk telling me I can't celebrate my heritage (or pretty much telling me anything else)" rather than "I am Nazi and regard Jews as sub-human".



    Quote:

    I was aware that the confederate flag represented the south in the Civil War, I just wasn't aware that the flag itself was tied in so strongly to racism in the way that the Swastika represents Nazism (and therefore anti-semitism).



    The Civil War was not fought for Slavery in regards to it's moral relavency but rather it's economic. With each new state added to the Union there was the battle of should it be a slave state or free state. As a Southern Slave owner you quickly realized that you could not move to a free state and keep your slaves. This limited opportunities. As many Southerns say, they basically objected to being told what to do by "yankees". The Confederate Flag does not mean Southern Pride to everyone because Blacks are Southerners too. To many it represents a defunct country that wished to enslave them for their life and consanguinity. The Nazi wanted to destroy the Jews...the Confedercy wanted to profit from Black labor. It's hard to say which one is worse. Many a slave begged for death.



    Quote:

    I suppose that it comes from the fact that I don't really believe that the South were fighting to keep blacks enslaved and the North fighting to free them. Call me cynical, but human rights aren't what wars are fought over, money and power, on the other hand, are.



    Exactly. The CW wasn't about Slavery directly. But Slavery was a hot button issue in the South because they needed low cost(read slave) labor for their agriculture. Lincolns primary directive was to preserve the union and he basically used the Emancipation Proclamation as a tool(a toothless one at that) against the states that seceded. So I agree with you...Money(slave labor) and Power(keeping the Union) where large issues.



    An interesting point. Neither General Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson were particularly fond of slavery but they fought for Southern Pride because that was their calling. I have nothing but respect for both Men. Too many good Men died(600k) on both sides but the seeds for the CW were planted long before.



    Quote:

    So is there perhaps just a big overlap of the rebel/racist groups? Are there any African-American 'rebels' adopting the flag? Or would that just be asking for a lynching from one group and ostracism from the other?



    I haven't seen any Blacks support the Confederate Flag. But I don't think that everyone flying the flag is racist. I doubt the the two would mix very well.
  • Reply 12 of 175
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,215member
    Quote:

    Exactly. I'm a Californian who lived in the South (Oklahoma) for ten years, upon my return to California I was startled by the west coast stereotypes of black-white relations in the South. In fact, I found the Southern culture (white and black) to be far more accepting, sharing, and mutually supporting than the divisive racialist politics here in Calif.



    Max I agree with you %100. Southern Hospitality is real. And most Southerners are very easy going people. I lived in Georgia for a bit and have nothing but good things to say about it. The West does stereotype Southerners in the worst ways.
  • Reply 13 of 175
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    or



    The trouble starts when Jews make their feelings known about this vestage of the Nazis, and Nazi Germans get their back up about being told what they can and cannot do. In this regard there really is a racist edge to the anger, but more along the lines of "I don't like jew folk telling me I can't celebrate my heritage (or pretty much telling me anything else)" rather than "I am Nazi and regard Jews as sub-human".





    Not sure where you're coming from on this, since the rest of your post seems to back-peddle a bit, but I think there is a real difference between a swastika and the confederate flag.



    Personally, I have no use for any symbols of the confederacy and think that the sooner white southerners "get over it" the better but: anyone sporting Nazi paraphernalia in this country is making a clear statement in regards to anti-semitism and white power. I mean, there really isn't any two ways about it. The confederate flag, while certainly used as a racial affront in some instances, can signify to the bearer an on-going sense of place, "Dixie", with a set of values and traditions that doesn't necessarily involve racism. I would agree that it necessarliy involves a farily willful insensitivity to the larger culture, but not in the sense that a Nazi flag speaks to racial hatred.
  • Reply 14 of 175
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    That better have been a facetious thread title.... if not:



    Trumptman, you are no better than Scott or SDW (at their most intellectually dishonest and misleading):



    1). Dean did not say "Give me guns and Confederate flags." Dean said "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not [Republicans], because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too." He could have said 'racists, polygamists, born-again Christians, pedophiles, or people who like to pick fights on the internet' should vote with Democrats because the party will provide them with health insurance and better schools. That means the need for health insurance and better schools outweighs whatever narrow, exclusive ideology practiced by gun-toting, confederate flag-waving bigots.



    Anyway, Dean is walking a thin line here between appealing to people of questionable morality, ethics, and ideology and endorsing the morality, ethics, and ideology of those people. Dean is effectively saying: "Listen, I believe the need for better schools and health insurance for everyone outweighs some other significant differences of opinions." The problem here, of course, is how far Dean will go in condemning those differences of opinions that are pretty much fundamentally opposed his own (and likewise)



    Does he embrace it, does he not? I don't think so. I'm uncomfortable with the whole thing just because people will react like this. It doesn't seem like a good sound byte to me- only good as part of a well-articulated long form speech. Like Lieberman said, "It is irresponsible and reckless to loosely talk about one of the most divisive, hurtful symbols in American history." You have to be careful.
  • Reply 15 of 175
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,937member
    LOL!



    Shawn, you cannot defend what he said. If this was a Republican, he'd be ROASTED. Intellectually Dishonest?







    Quote:

    He could have said 'racists, polygamists, born-again Christians, pedophiles, or people who like to pick fights on the internet' should vote with Democrats because the party will provide them with health insurance and better schools. That means the need for health insurance and better schools outweighs whatever narrow, exclusive ideology practiced by gun-toting, confederate flag-waving bigots.





    Perhaps that what he should have said, but that doesn't make the above notion anymore true. First, the government has no business in heatlh insurance. That being said, it already has its hands deep in it, and the REPUPLICAN party is pushing for expansion of medicare benefits.



    On education, the US spends more per student than any other country in the world. Money is not the problem. No accountability for STUDENTS, teacher's unions and financial MISMANGEMENT are the problem, as is the economic decay of the inner cities caused by welfare on demand.



    As far as the South, your view (and Dean's) is apparent. He knows he needs the South to win (and so do you) but has no idea what the modern South is all about. To him, the confederate flag and gun toting racists is what it's about...and in his mind he needs them.



    In any case, it;s a major blunder form him. It alienates his base and the very people he's trying to court.



    With opponents like this, Bush doesn't need allies.



    Oh, and BTW: I love how you incinuate the equality of "racists, polygamists and born again Christians....oh and pedophiles...I almost forgot.
  • Reply 16 of 175
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ShawnJ

    That better have been a facetious thread title.... if not:



    Trumptman, you are no better than Scott or SDW (at their most intellectually dishonest and misleading):



    1). Dean did not say "Give me guns and Confederate flags." Dean said "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not [Republicans], because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too." He could have said 'racists, polygamists, born-again Christians, pedophiles, or people who like to pick fights on the internet' should vote with Democrats because the party will provide them with health insurance and better schools. That means the need for health insurance and better schools outweighs whatever narrow, exclusive ideology practiced by gun-toting, confederate flag-waving bigots.



    Anyway, Dean is walking a thin line here between appealing to people of questionable morality, ethics, and ideology and endorsing the morality, ethics, and ideology of those people. Dean is effectively saying: "Listen, I believe the need for better schools and health insurance for everyone outweighs some other significant differences of opinions." The problem here, of course, is how far Dean will go in condemning those differences of opinions that are pretty much fundamentally opposed his own (and likewise)



    Does he embrace it, does he not? I don't think so. I'm uncomfortable with the whole thing just because people will react like this. It doesn't seem like a good sound byte to me- only good as part of a well-articulated long form speech. Like Lieberman said, "It is irresponsible and reckless to loosely talk about one of the most divisive, hurtful symbols in American history." You have to be careful.






    Agreed.



    Dean haters wishes there was more then him saying he wants jobs and health insurance for everyone. Unlike the current hump in the white house.....



    Sigh.



    Want to start a thread with substance?



    Try these:



    Why doesn't the republican party condemn haley barbor for his by racists, for racists campaign?



    Will bush JUNIOR insist on going to bob "xenohpobe" jones university this election year?



    Why isn't the "liberal media" reporting on the fact that the repblican party in south dakota and kentucky are installing poll watchers at heavy-ly black precincts?



    I love it. The right wing nuts in this country have so little to grasp and say "see we told you our ideas worked" that they are going to step on every verbal mistep despite it having an entirely different meaning what so ever...
  • Reply 17 of 175
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by SDW2001

    Oh, and BTW: I love how you incinuate the equality of "racists, polygamists and born again Christians....oh and pedophiles...I almost forgot.







    I thought it was a good touch, myself.
  • Reply 18 of 175
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    Seems Dean is in a bit of a stew for repeatedly courting what are potentially racist, white voters down in the South. When you add his perfect rating from the NRA and his current inability to generate minority support, it looks pretty bad.





    Another thing: Dean is trying to appeal to socially and culturally conservatives in the South basically on his own terms. As far as I can tell, he has not made any concessions on major issues that would make pickup driving, confederate flag-waving conservatives want to vote for him. Rather, he said that health insurance and better schools (the products of a Dean Presidency) would benefit them. And that traditionally voting Republican has not given them those things.



    He really really really has to watch what he's saying here for two reasons: 1) that it could be mildly insulting to say a group's voting habits in the past 30 years are wrong and 2) that people would confuse publicly appealing to extreme conservatives and endorsing their politics. The latter seems to have won the most criticism, but it's just wrong in this case. Like I said, he's saying that they should come to him, not the other way around (although he certainly needs to make that clearer). He's coming to them in the form of health insurance and better schools- which certainly benefit everybody and not just conservatives.
  • Reply 19 of 175
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ShawnJ

    Another thing: Dean is trying to appeal to socially and culturally conservatives in the South basically on his own terms. As far as I can tell, he has not made any concessions on major issues that would make pickup driving, confederate flag-waving conservatives want to vote for him. Rather, he said that health insurance and better schools (the products of a Dean Presidency) would benefit them. And that traditionally voting Republican has not given them those things.



    He really really really has to watch what he's saying here for two reasons: 1) that it could be mildly insulting to say a group's voting habits in the past 30 years are wrong and 2) that people would confuse publicly appealing to extreme conservatives and endorsing their politics... .




    But look at the tone of the debate, and what Dean said (and you quoted) ? Dean made an appeal to ?white southerners?, not from the upper classes, but from the ?pickup driveing, confederate flag? working class. What would seem to be an appeal to the proud and poor white working classes of the South is taken as an endorsement of Racism.



    Liberalism, and the Democratic Party, have become so sensitized to race issues, they?ve abandoned any pretense of defending the common man (at least if he?s white and lives in the south) AND the MERE MENTION of that class by name (formerly democratic supporters) brings hysteria and apoplexy from Democratic Party elites and leaders.



    Dean is right, the party of FDR used to make common cause for all working people; now this class, including white working classes outside the south, see that their values and future is with the middle and upper class Republicans. Having driven them from the party with elitist attitudes, the San Francisco democrats are ?shocked? that they vote in mass Republican (as do many union members)?



    As I say, it delights us Republicans to see such democratic bigotry ? and has made our job so much easier, especially on the national level.
  • Reply 20 of 175
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by MaxParrish

    But look at the tone of the debate, and what Dean said (and you quoted) ? Dean made an appeal to ?white southerners?, not from the upper classes, but from the ?pickup driveing, confederate flag? working class. What would seem to be an appeal to the proud and poor white working classes of the South is taken as an endorsement of Racism.



    I don't disagree with you at all: it is being taken that way.
Sign In or Register to comment.