Racism exists... all over. It is by no means limited to the south. I think the South gets a bad rap because of the Civil war... and the institutional seperate but "equal" laws that followed... and and get the rap somewhat deservedly so...
Fear of the "other" is what the right stokes in the south AND everywhere else... and does it quite well.
And Dean wants to talk about racism as it exists today... everywhere... that's why he's not afraid to get the vote of the guy driving the truck with a confederate flag sticker... he knows the Mom driving the SUV to soccer practice has the same prejudices too.
Exactly. As long as we keep pretending that racism is something that happens "somewhere else" it's difficult to talk honestly about the things that divide us.
By the way, if my musings on my southern heritage sometime seem a tad erratic, it's because I regard being a southerner as something akin to coming from a disfunctional family.... bitter recriminations within the family are fine, but let "outsiders" start to criticise, and I have a tendency to close ranks with the very people I was despairing over just moments before. Yee hah.
We got Zell Miller screaming bloody murder at the Democratic Nominees because they don't "get" the south or aren't southern enough.. or in his case not Republican enough for him.
Yankees have no problems voting for southerners... why does Zell have such a hard time giving northerners a break?
Tell me about it.... we're sort of nuts. Somehow the trauma of the Civil War still looms large in the southern imagination-- not as in "you took away our slaves" but as in "a large industrial nation defeated and humiliated a small agrarian nation and we will never, ever forget it."
Many southeners really and truly believe themselves to be living in a seperate nation.
Tell me about it.... we're sort of nuts. Somehow the trauma of the Civil War still looms large in the southern imagination-- not as in "you took away our slaves" but as in "a large industrial nation defeated and humiliated a small agrarian nation and we will never, ever forget it."
Many southeners really and truly believe themselves to be living in a seperate nation.
How do westerners fit within this tug of war? Born and raised Californian so I don't "get" the battle between the north and the south.
How do westerners fit within this tug of war? Born and raised Californian so I don't "get" the battle between the north and the south.
Depends on who you ask. For some in the south not southerner=yankee=welcome if you're polite but leave your attitude at the mason-dixon line.
Think of it as a third world nation with a bad reputation-- nobody likes wealthy foreigners making fun of their local customs, or being considered stupid or "simple" or dangerous.
The irony, of course, is that national stereotypes about southerners in general closely parallel the attitudes that southerners are assumed to hold toward blacks.
I'll address this one last time and then leave you to your own denseness.
Hey, Shawn how can you prove that a cab driver didn't pick up someone because they are black? How can you show that you had to wait longer for a seat at a restaurant?
Likewise how do you prove that citizen's councils or confederate flags are racist?
It is more about the intent behind the statements. If you think my reaction is unjustified then so is the reaction of about 8 other Democratic candidates since they said the same thing. If you think that you have to prove how someone wearing a confederate flag might exclude someone black or how someone wearing a swastika might exclude someone Jewish before reacting to their beliefs then you are just ignoring history and likewise appealing only to rationalism for groups of people that ignore it and operate in spite of it.
People who are racist are so at the expense of others. When you ask people to associate with you, you associate with their actions as well.
Nick
Situation 1:
Person A runs for political office.
Person B is a voter.
Person A promises Person B two things: health insurance and better schools. He/she describes Person B as someone who "drives a pickup truck with a confederate flag."
Situation 2:
Person A runs for political office.
Person B is a voter.
Person A promises Person B two things: health insurance and better schools. He/she describes Person B as someone who "lives like a sloth"
Does either situation represent an endorsement by Person A of the lifestyle or beliefs of Person B?
No. Dean only promises southern conservatives who "drive pickup trucks with confederate flags" two things: health insurance and better schools. He did not endorse the flag itself. He did not endorse people who endorse the flag. Dean describes a group of people in a certain way and says that its past voting habits have not given it two things: health insurance and good schools. Dean can provide it, so the group should change its voting habits to finally have it.
Now I believe this is a calm, reasonable assessment of the situation. It may as well be wrong, but you'll have to disagree with me using logic and the facts: grounds on which I am more than willing to discuss.
Shawn is it not a given that all americans would receive the same campain promises? or did for some reason Dean need to specifically draw out the "southerners with confederate flags pickup truck driving" section of the population for some reason?
If bush said what dean said would you not be jumping all over Bush for making such a stupid comment?
Dean is saying that fear and their prejudices (however mild)... are used to get their vote... better healhtcare and education is good for everyone...
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Shawn is it not a given that all americans would receive the same campain promises? or did for some reason Dean need to specifically draw out the "southerners with confederate flags pickp truck driving" section of the population for some reason?
If bush said what dean said would you not be jumping all over Bush for making such a stupid comment?
Thanks for your reply
Fellowship
You got it exactly right. His "pandering" to conservative southerners was not "pandering" at all. Rather, it was just a regular campaign promise of better schools and health insurance. The only difference is that Dean directed it at a specific group of people. Why is this so hard, people?
Dean is saying that fear and their prejudices (however mild)... are used to get their vote... better healhtcare and education is good for everyone...
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Dr. Howard Dean
I would love to talk race and end racism. Charlie Rose does a better job of speaking than does Dean.
He's saying... I'm gonna go to the south and tell them not to be fooled by Bush... I want to do things that are good for all americans. He's telling people what he'll do WHEN he campaigns in the south.
He's saying... I'm gonna go to the south and tell them not to be fooled by Bush... I want to do things that are good for all americans. He's telling people what he'll do WHEN he campaigns in the south.
But I'm sure he WON'T go to Bob Jones University.
Fooled by Bush?
If after all this time every single american does not know where Bush stands on issues they have no business voting anyway.
Fooled by Bush HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
All I am asking some here at AI to do is demand better from all of the pool of candidates and call them when they say stupid things. At least other democrats running called Dean on his language.
I have to wonder if there are not even more people "fooled" by "any candidate running" than there are those fooled by Bush.
I am saying I am not fooled by either side of the discussion.
If we want better leadership we must demand it. That includes Dean or anyone else.
hrmmm I'm interested to see the share on that programming... good for the democrats to get some fire going...
I'm with fellowship, This is just a big PR hat trick. People on the coasts don't understand the south. I know "black" people with confederate flags... wtf it means dixie.. not racism, at least to them. But in reality, I don't think the federal government has the right to choose who has healthcare and who doesn't.
I dont' think I'm going to vote either, unless bush gets more jobs. I mean sure the economy had its greatest pulse of new GDP, but still.
All I have to pick from is a bunch of flaming liberals who only cause problems, and republicans who embelish them.
This thread has taken off! I haven't gotten to chime in for oh... the hundred or so posts it gained in like two days.
I will say this though... I find it funny that saying someone has a confederate flag doesn't make them a racist, but giving a speech at Bob Jones University does.
It just shows the double standard. To be fair, I don't think Bush should visit there and should denounce them for having rules against interacial dating. I do find the double standard amusing.
Comments
Originally posted by chu_bakka
I agree with addabox.
Racism exists... all over. It is by no means limited to the south. I think the South gets a bad rap because of the Civil war... and the institutional seperate but "equal" laws that followed... and and get the rap somewhat deservedly so...
Fear of the "other" is what the right stokes in the south AND everywhere else... and does it quite well.
And Dean wants to talk about racism as it exists today... everywhere... that's why he's not afraid to get the vote of the guy driving the truck with a confederate flag sticker... he knows the Mom driving the SUV to soccer practice has the same prejudices too.
Exactly. As long as we keep pretending that racism is something that happens "somewhere else" it's difficult to talk honestly about the things that divide us.
By the way, if my musings on my southern heritage sometime seem a tad erratic, it's because I regard being a southerner as something akin to coming from a disfunctional family.... bitter recriminations within the family are fine, but let "outsiders" start to criticise, and I have a tendency to close ranks with the very people I was despairing over just moments before. Yee hah.
We got Zell Miller screaming bloody murder at the Democratic Nominees because they don't "get" the south or aren't southern enough.. or in his case not Republican enough for him.
Yankees have no problems voting for southerners... why does Zell have such a hard time giving northerners a break?
Many southeners really and truly believe themselves to be living in a seperate nation.
Originally posted by addabox
Tell me about it.... we're sort of nuts. Somehow the trauma of the Civil War still looms large in the southern imagination-- not as in "you took away our slaves" but as in "a large industrial nation defeated and humiliated a small agrarian nation and we will never, ever forget it."
Many southeners really and truly believe themselves to be living in a seperate nation.
How do westerners fit within this tug of war? Born and raised Californian so I don't "get" the battle between the north and the south.
Originally posted by Northgate
How do westerners fit within this tug of war? Born and raised Californian so I don't "get" the battle between the north and the south.
Depends on who you ask. For some in the south not southerner=yankee=welcome if you're polite but leave your attitude at the mason-dixon line.
Think of it as a third world nation with a bad reputation-- nobody likes wealthy foreigners making fun of their local customs, or being considered stupid or "simple" or dangerous.
The irony, of course, is that national stereotypes about southerners in general closely parallel the attitudes that southerners are assumed to hold toward blacks.
Kinda like a Red Sox fan... which I'm sad to say ... I am.
It's one thing for Zell Miller to do his Conservative Southern Democrat whine... it's another when he becomes a propagandist for the Bush.
The only democrat that wants to cut and run from Iraq is Kucinich.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
The south lost and they can't get over it.
Kinda like a Red Sox fan... which I'm sad to say ... I am.
I dunno Chewey-- you may have the heavier burden to bear. After all, the south just lost the civil war the one time....
I was there..
talk about uggg.
I think you know the rest of the story.
Originally posted by trumptman
I'll address this one last time and then leave you to your own denseness.
Hey, Shawn how can you prove that a cab driver didn't pick up someone because they are black? How can you show that you had to wait longer for a seat at a restaurant?
Likewise how do you prove that citizen's councils or confederate flags are racist?
It is more about the intent behind the statements. If you think my reaction is unjustified then so is the reaction of about 8 other Democratic candidates since they said the same thing. If you think that you have to prove how someone wearing a confederate flag might exclude someone black or how someone wearing a swastika might exclude someone Jewish before reacting to their beliefs then you are just ignoring history and likewise appealing only to rationalism for groups of people that ignore it and operate in spite of it.
People who are racist are so at the expense of others. When you ask people to associate with you, you associate with their actions as well.
Nick
Situation 1:
Person A runs for political office.
Person B is a voter.
Person A promises Person B two things: health insurance and better schools. He/she describes Person B as someone who "drives a pickup truck with a confederate flag."
Situation 2:
Person A runs for political office.
Person B is a voter.
Person A promises Person B two things: health insurance and better schools. He/she describes Person B as someone who "lives like a sloth"
Does either situation represent an endorsement by Person A of the lifestyle or beliefs of Person B?
No. Dean only promises southern conservatives who "drive pickup trucks with confederate flags" two things: health insurance and better schools. He did not endorse the flag itself. He did not endorse people who endorse the flag. Dean describes a group of people in a certain way and says that its past voting habits have not given it two things: health insurance and good schools. Dean can provide it, so the group should change its voting habits to finally have it.
Now I believe this is a calm, reasonable assessment of the situation. It may as well be wrong, but you'll have to disagree with me using logic and the facts: grounds on which I am more than willing to discuss.
If bush said what dean said would you not be jumping all over Bush for making such a stupid comment?
Thanks for your reply
Fellowship
Bush uses divisive campaigns to get their vote...
Dean is saying that fear and their prejudices (however mild)... are used to get their vote... better healhtcare and education is good for everyone...
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Dr. Howard Dean
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Shawn is it not a given that all americans would receive the same campain promises? or did for some reason Dean need to specifically draw out the "southerners with confederate flags pickp truck driving" section of the population for some reason?
If bush said what dean said would you not be jumping all over Bush for making such a stupid comment?
Thanks for your reply
Fellowship
You got it exactly right. His "pandering" to conservative southerners was not "pandering" at all. Rather, it was just a regular campaign promise of better schools and health insurance. The only difference is that Dean directed it at a specific group of people. Why is this so hard, people?
More on Bush later.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
How about...
Bush uses divisive campaigns to get their vote...
Dean is saying that fear and their prejudices (however mild)... are used to get their vote... better healhtcare and education is good for everyone...
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Dr. Howard Dean
I would love to talk race and end racism. Charlie Rose does a better job of speaking than does Dean.
Dean is crude and only seeks to become elected.
Fellowship
I say straightforward.
Did you not read the quote?
He's saying... I'm gonna go to the south and tell them not to be fooled by Bush... I want to do things that are good for all americans. He's telling people what he'll do WHEN he campaigns in the south.
But I'm sure he WON'T go to Bob Jones University.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Crude?
I say straightforward.
Did you not read the quote?
He's saying... I'm gonna go to the south and tell them not to be fooled by Bush... I want to do things that are good for all americans. He's telling people what he'll do WHEN he campaigns in the south.
But I'm sure he WON'T go to Bob Jones University.
Fooled by Bush?
If after all this time every single american does not know where Bush stands on issues they have no business voting anyway.
Fooled by Bush HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
All I am asking some here at AI to do is demand better from all of the pool of candidates and call them when they say stupid things. At least other democrats running called Dean on his language.
I have to wonder if there are not even more people "fooled" by "any candidate running" than there are those fooled by Bush.
I am saying I am not fooled by either side of the discussion.
If we want better leadership we must demand it. That includes Dean or anyone else.
at least for me it does.
Fellowship
So you don't think Bush uses race as a divisive issue?
I'm with fellowship, This is just a big PR hat trick. People on the coasts don't understand the south. I know "black" people with confederate flags... wtf it means dixie.. not racism, at least to them. But in reality, I don't think the federal government has the right to choose who has healthcare and who doesn't.
I dont' think I'm going to vote either, unless bush gets more jobs. I mean sure the economy had its greatest pulse of new GDP, but still.
All I have to pick from is a bunch of flaming liberals who only cause problems, and republicans who embelish them.
I will say this though...
It just shows the double standard. To be fair, I don't think Bush should visit there and should denounce them for having rules against interacial dating. I do find the double standard amusing.
Nick