And yet the passes made to Bush are the size of Mac trucks compared to this linguistic baffo. I fully expect conservatives to do their best to support their man even though they "fail to notice the pass" they give Bush...Iraq, Plame, Debt.
The problem is everyone is not looking at this from a macro point of view. It's the larger picture, not the miniscule debate over a word choice or phraseology. It's about framing the issue and not coming to stupid conclusions.
You are correct that for many of us Dean is our man. Therefore, it is our responsibility to make sure that his statements don't go misrepresented or taken out of context. Many on this board are eager to point out any folly on the Democratic side simply because we're currently holding the president's feet to the fire. That is not to say our candidate shouldn't also be held to higher standard, he is. Far and above.
If you're going to somehow conclude that Dean is a racist, then that's your conclusion to make. I don't think he's remotely a racist. I think he's a Democratic nominee trying to make some headway into the South. Did he choose the wrong phrase? Yes. Yet, I find it somewhat ironic that your systematic dismissal of Dean is based on speech when our own president has made gaffes that inspire awe amongst those on both sides of the isle.
I never said Dean is a racist and I do not believe he is. What I see is that Dean has used a tactic that is tastless to get cheap "free" press and people talking about him. It is so obvious and yet the sheep lick up every drop of slime this guy dishes out. Can you not see or do you not care to view politics with integrity? I voted for Bush and I will not vote for Bush again. I would suggest that means ole fellows has a bit of integrity within my character. Where on the other hand I see some on the boards here who abandon integrity at any cost as long as they can cheer like sheep cheer leaders for their man.
What is even worse is how others pile on to defend crude statements.
I am not saying Dean does not have the right to say what he said. I am not the language police but I would suggest he drop the slime tactics he uses for free press and drop the trash talk and talk issues on face value.
But again I am looking for a man or woman of integrity to lead the US where as many of you would sell your soul as long as Bush is out.
I say have your own integrity and don't support people who use Hitler like tactics to arouse people to support their cause.
Don't be sheep. I hate to see so many sheep
History can repeat itself and Germany had a hell of a case of the sheepitus.
Wow... I went to a Dean rally and I know exactly where he stands on race. He believes race should not be used to divide us... he believes the right has used the issue to do just that. He's saying don't let the fear tactics of the right make you vote a way that is not in your own self interest.
He's also willing to talk about race in a frank and open manner... it's not taboo for him... NOT because he's a racist... but because he believes that in order for the country to do well we have to come together as a community... and fight together against the inequities that plague all of us... regardless of race.
I abhore rasicm and prejudice... I would never give a candidate a free pass just because I think he might beat a republican.
Wow... I went to a Dean rally and I know exactly where he stands on race. He believes race should not be used to divide us... he believes the right has used the issue to do just that. He's saying don't let the fear tactics of the right make you vote a way that is not in your own self interest.
He's also willing to talk about race in a frank and open manner... it's not taboo for him... NOT because he's a racist... but because he believes that in order for the country to do well we have to come together as a community... and fight together against the inequities that plague all of us... regardless of race.
I abhore rasicm and prejudice... I would never give a candidate a free pass just because I think he might beat a republican.
I don't think a person running for president should use terms like "Guys driving pickup trucks in the south with confederate flags should vote for me" or what ever nonsense he said.
What logic does that offer to a campaign? What good does that do?
As far as race I have never voted for a republican because they had some kind of race policy. How has the "right" used race to divide people?
One of the reasons that I am running for president is to restore the ideal of the American community. Unfortunately, this ideal is under assault by the current Administration. The President pushes forward an agenda and policies that divide us. He divides us by race by using the word quota. He divides us by gender by attacking a woman's right to make her own health care decisions. He divides us by sexual orientation by supporting senators who have slandered gay Americans.
This is a campaign to unite and empower people everywhere. It is a call to every American, regardless of party, to join together in common purpose and for the common good to save and restore all that it means to be an American.
We seek an America where it is not enough to protect our own rights under the law, but where it is a duty and an obligation for each of us as Americans to make sure every American is equal under the law.
We seek an America where it is not enough to proclaim the words freedom, self-government, and democracy, but where it is a duty and a responsibility to participate together in common purpose with the sacrifice required of each of us to give those words meaning.
We seek an America where it is not enough that our own children have health care and good schools, but where our neighborsÕ children do as well.
This campaign is about who we are as Americans. It is the ideal of the American community that we seek to restore.
Fundamental to the restoration of the American community is the reaffirmation of the principles of Civil Rights and Justice. As President, I will work tirelessly to promote these principles:
*\t I will support affirmative action, from which we have all benefited, because it has strengthened our institutions and provided opportunity.
*\t I will unflinchingly defend a womanÕs right to choose against those who would take away this right.
*\t I will nominate federal judges with outstanding legal credentials, records of professional excellence, and demonstrated commitment to the constitutional principles of equality, liberty, and privacy.
*\t I will work to expand equal rights to same-sex couples and ban workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation, strengthen federal protections against anti-gay violence, give federal employees the right to name same-sex partners as beneficiaries, remove bias from our immigration laws, and end the militaryÕs ÒDonÕt Ask, DonÕt TellÓ policy.
*\t I will work to ensure that racial profiling ends and I will direct my Attorney General to use regulatory authority under existing anti-discrimination laws the 1964 Civil Rights Act to define racial profiling as discrimination, and to withhold federal funds from state and local law enforcement that violate those regulations.
*\tI will appoint an Attorney General who sees our constitution not as a document to be manipulated, ignored, and violated, but who recognizes and respects it as the fabric that binds the American community together.
*\tI will oppose expansion of the Patriot Act, efforts to remove sunset clauses included in the act, and I will seek to repeal the portions of the Patriot Act that are unconstitutional.
*\tI will put the weight of my office behind the Innocence Protection Act, proposed by Senator Patrick Leahy, which would expand access to DNA testing and strengthen the quality of lawyers for defendants facing the death penalty.
*\t I will protect the civil rights of immigrants detained by the Department of Homeland Security.
*\tI will work for federal legislation to restore the right to vote in any federal election for ex-felons who have paid their debt to society.
Together we have the power to halt this PresidentÕs divisive, destructive polices. Together we can restore the ideal of the American community. Integral to this restoration is the reaffirmation of the shared belief that everyone, regardless of race, sex, creed, sexual orientation, or immigration status is entitled to equal protection and justice.
The President pushes forward an agenda and policies that divide us. He divides us by race by using the word quota. He divides us by gender by attacking a woman's right to make her own health care decisions. He divides us by sexual orientation by supporting senators who have slandered gay Americans.
I voted for Bush and I will not vote for Bush again. I would suggest that means ole fellows has a bit of integrity within my character. Where on the other hand I see some on the boards here who abandon integrity at any cost as long as they can cheer like sheep cheer leaders for their man.
If our voting history is some sort of "integrity scorecard" than I'd be considered the most unimpaired. I voted for Bush Sr TWICE! I voted for Clinton once. I also voted for John McCain and Ralph Nader.
Quote:
I am not the language police but I would suggest he drop the slime tactics he uses for free press and drop the trash talk and talk issues on face value.
What other slime tactics? These are very harsh words usually reserved for the most deplorable of candidates. I truly don't understand where this hatred comes from?
Quote:
But again I am looking for a man or woman of integrity to lead the US where as many of you would sell your soul as long as Bush is out.
Yes, I want Bush out. However, I don't belong to the "anyone but Bush" camp. Again, if Dean doesn't pass your own litmus test, I wonder how Bush passed it in 2000.
Quote:
I say have your own integrity and don't support people who use Hitler like tactics to arouse people to support their cause.
Dean accepts different rules for guns regarding urban and rural areas. (secret white guy code for black and white areas) This is just another way of putting across a "I'll protect you from them" view.
This is just utter crap. I know black people that except the same 'different rules,' are they anti-black too?
No.
I can't believe you're stretching this to try and say Dean is a racist because of this.
Fellowship is funny about politicians. A couple months ago, he started a thread about how much he loved John Kerry. He's so fickle.
Fellowship, who in the world are you going to vote for if not Bush? It's very clear from your posts that you're a conservative, so why wouldn't you vote for the candidate who most represents your views?
This is just utter crap. I know black people that except the same 'different rules,' are they anti-black too?
No.
I can't believe you're stretching this to try and say Dean is a racist because of this.
Bingo! Trumpt's been hunting after Dean's "whitey" credentials ever since the "Dean Switch Campaign" thread a couple months ago. Sometimes whites are their own worst enemy, I swear.
This is going to stick to Dean like Plame on Rove...teflon.
Vermont has one of the lowest homicide rates in the United States. During myÊ11 years as Governor, the highest number of murders in a single year was 25 and the lowest number was five. Over half of these were domestic assaults, and the majority were not committed with a firearm.
If you say Ògun controlÓ in Vermont or Wyoming, people think it means taking away their hunting rifle. If you say "gun control" in New York City or Los Angeles, people are relieved at the prospect of having Uzis or illegal handguns taken off the streets. TheyÕre both right. ThatÕs why I think Vermont ought to be able to have a different set of laws than California.
I believe the federal gun laws we have -- like the Brady Bill -- are important, and I would veto any attempt to repeal or gut them. The Assault Weapons Ban expires next year, and it should be renewed. Although President Bush has claimed he supports renewing it, he is talking out both sides of his mouth; his staff has signaled that he doesnÕt want or expect Congress to renew the ban, and that is wrong.
I donÕt think we need a lot of new federal laws. But we do need to do a few things at the federal level, like requiring Insta-Check on all retail and gun show sales. We also must do a better job of enforcing the laws on the books. President Bush promised to be tough in enforcing gun laws, but his Administration has prosecuted only about 2% of all gun crimes and they are virtually ignoring 20 of the 22 major federal gun laws on the books. That is an abysmal record, and as President, IÕd make tough enforcement a reality, not just political rhetoric.
After that, I would let the states decide for themselves what, if any, additional gun safety laws they want. Just as we resist attempts by President Bush to dictate to the states how we run our school systems and what kind of welfare programs to have, we need to resist attempts to tell states how to deal with guns beyond existing federal law and fixing a few loopholes and problems.
Stars and Bars might as well be a SS or Swastika. If you think it is patriotic or at all justified then you plainly have missed a few hundred years of history in America. It is the symbol for Southern secession and racism. Why on earth would you be proud of the Stars and Bars unless you are a dirty racist piece of white trash living in a camper in a Walmart parking lot? I understand local pride and how it really goes, wrt to what addabox said. He hit the nail on the head. Anyone that sports a Stars and Bars but isn't racist just doesn't know American history. Most Americans don't know American history unfortunately. Whether or not it is intentional you are sporting a symbol of a racist uprising in America. It would be like a German-American getting all pissy because Jewish people were bothered by the Swastika bumper sticker on their pickup. I guarantee a truck with a Swastika on it would be messed up the first time it hit the parking lot. Why can Stars and Bars Southerners get away with the same thing?
This is politics. Dean is trying to pander to the south. He is hoping liberals like me will ignore it and still vote for him. We will. He is not racist and does care about core issues that affect everyone, including the south, like education and healthcare, two things NO Republicans have ever cared about. How is that "No tree..I mean child" program of Dubya doing? I remember having to take one of those stupid tests. Wasted a whole school day where I could have been doing AP chemistry, biology, calculus, and English. I hope Dean can play dirty and steal the south from Bush, in the end the Southerners will appreciate it when their healthcare and education are improved.
SDW Republicans do this all the time, we're not "roasting" them, everyone in the know already is aware that Strom Thurmond and his ilk are blatantly racist. Remember his recent party? Good ol' boys.
Fellowship is funny about politicians. A couple months ago, he started a thread about how much he loved John Kerry. He's so fickle.
Fellowship, who in the world are you going to vote for if not Bush? It's very clear from your posts that you're a conservative, so why wouldn't you vote for the candidate who most represents your views?
It appears that a view that overrides his other conservative ideologies is the need for a president that makes half an effort to be honest with the public. If integrity is a trait that he feels to be most important, why should he vote for Bush?
It appears that a view that overrides his other conservative ideologies is the need for a president that makes half an effort to be honest with the public. If integrity is a trait that he feels to be most important, why should he vote for Bush?
BR it is so refreshing that you are not beholden to any party. It is not a crime to support a given party but when one views all the people who will support party over integrity it makes one ask... Why?
Why are some afraid to have integrity and demand that leaders or would be leaders act with integrity?
What is there to be afraid of? Some just can not let go of their mothers breast (political party)
Let go of being (owned) by some less than honest political figure.
Again, who are you going to vote for Fellowship? Still John Kerry, or some other Democrat who strongly supports abortion rights and many other policies with which you disagree? The Greens who even more strongly support policies with which you disagree? Are you sure you're going to be able to tell who has integrity and who doesn't among those running for president next year? If you apply this Dean standard of yours to all candidates, will you be able to vote for anyone at all? Is not voting really an appropriate course of action for someone living in a democracy?
Again, who are you going to vote for Fellowship? Still John Kerry, or some other Democrat who strongly supports abortion rights and many other policies with which you disagree? The Greens who even more strongly support policies with which you disagree? Are you sure you're going to be able to tell who has integrity and who doesn't? If you apply this Dean standard of yours to all candidates, will you vote at all? Is not voting really an appropriate course of action for someone living in a democracy?
I can't fault you or blame you for not knowing every thing I post here on AO but I have said many times I may not even vote.
BR it is so refreshing that you are not beholden to any party. It is not a crime to support a given party but when one views all the people who will support party over integrity it makes one ask... Why?
Why are some afraid to have integrity and demand that leaders or would be leaders act with integrity?
What is there to be afraid of? Some just can not let go of their mothers breast (political party)
Let go of being (owned) by some less than honest political figure.
Own yourself and vote with integrity.
Fellows
No, the idea that one has to be independent of a political party to have integrity (as if party membership/support and integrity are mutually exclusive) is wrong. Integrity means "steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code." You cannot tell me that I cannot have integrity while voting for candidates that reflect that moral or ethical code.
I certainly agree that some people seem to steadfastly support everyone in their political party. That's not necessarily bad. The question is, does support of an elected member or candidate in a political party contradict one's moral or ethical code? Is the language of the support itself unethical, illogical, or just plain wrong? I think that's the problem more than anything else.
Now, we have significant problems here at AppleOutsider because some of us on either side of the Left-Right gap cannot seem to agree on the simplest facts, nevermind the more complex facts. Integrity is important here on the board not only as some abstract principle, but also as something necessary for discussion.
No, the idea that one has to be independent of a political party to have integrity (as if party membership/support and integrity are mutually exclusive) is wrong. Integrity means "steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code." You cannot tell me that I cannot have integrity while voting for candidates that reflect that moral or ethical code.
I certainly agree that some people seem to steadfastly support everyone in their political party. That's not necessarily bad. The question is, does support of an elected member or candidate in a political party contradict one's moral or ethical code? Is the language of the support itself unethical, illogical, or just plain wrong? I think that's the problem more than anything else.
Now, we have significant problems here at AppleOutsider because some of us on either side of the Left-Right gap cannot seem to agree on the simplest facts, nevermind the more complex facts. Integrity is important here on the board not only as some abstract principle, but also as something necessary for discussion.
Shawn what I am saying is very simple and easy to grasp. I am only saying that when leaders or would be leaders of a political party I might normally support betray my trust due to identifiable reasons which I can list then I have the right to communicate "You have broken the trust Mr. Bush" I will no longer vote for you. That is integrity in keeping with my ethical code. My ethical code does not by default adapt to the twists and turns any member of any political party decides to take. I retain the right to adhear to my own ethical code.
My simple point was that some do not retain their own standards but rather adapt to any twist or turn as long as they can have their "team" win the footbal game.
I also made clear that it is not a crime to support any given political party. Read earlier postings.
Seems Dean is in a bit of a stew for repeatedly courting what are potentially racist, white voters down in the South. When you add his perfect rating from the NRA and his current inability to generate minority support, it looks pretty bad.
There won't be/hasn't been MUCH of an outcry, not like there would be if he was a Republican (see Lott, Trent). Dean's the Dems' fair-haired boy at this point.
Shawn what I am saying is very simple and easy to grasp. I am only saying that when leaders or would be leaders of a political party I might normally support betray my trust due to identifiable reasons which I can list then I have the right to communicate "You have broken the trust Mr. Bush" I will no longer vote for you. That is integrity in keeping with my ethical code. My ethical code does not by default adapt to the twists and turns any menber of any political party decides to take. I retain the right to adhear to my own ethical code.
My simple point was that some do not retain their own standards but rather adapt to any twist or turn as long as they can have their "team" win the footbal game.
I also made clear that it is not a crime to support any given political party. Read earlier postings.
Fellowship
Fellowship, we basically agree with each other. Read the post you just quoted!
Comments
Originally posted by Northgate
And yet the passes made to Bush are the size of Mac trucks compared to this linguistic baffo. I fully expect conservatives to do their best to support their man even though they "fail to notice the pass" they give Bush...Iraq, Plame, Debt.
The problem is everyone is not looking at this from a macro point of view. It's the larger picture, not the miniscule debate over a word choice or phraseology. It's about framing the issue and not coming to stupid conclusions.
You are correct that for many of us Dean is our man. Therefore, it is our responsibility to make sure that his statements don't go misrepresented or taken out of context. Many on this board are eager to point out any folly on the Democratic side simply because we're currently holding the president's feet to the fire. That is not to say our candidate shouldn't also be held to higher standard, he is. Far and above.
If you're going to somehow conclude that Dean is a racist, then that's your conclusion to make. I don't think he's remotely a racist. I think he's a Democratic nominee trying to make some headway into the South. Did he choose the wrong phrase? Yes. Yet, I find it somewhat ironic that your systematic dismissal of Dean is based on speech when our own president has made gaffes that inspire awe amongst those on both sides of the isle.
I never said Dean is a racist and I do not believe he is. What I see is that Dean has used a tactic that is tastless to get cheap "free" press and people talking about him. It is so obvious and yet the sheep lick up every drop of slime this guy dishes out. Can you not see or do you not care to view politics with integrity? I voted for Bush and I will not vote for Bush again. I would suggest that means ole fellows has a bit of integrity within my character. Where on the other hand I see some on the boards here who abandon integrity at any cost as long as they can cheer like sheep cheer leaders for their man.
What is even worse is how others pile on to defend crude statements.
I am not saying Dean does not have the right to say what he said. I am not the language police but I would suggest he drop the slime tactics he uses for free press and drop the trash talk and talk issues on face value.
But again I am looking for a man or woman of integrity to lead the US where as many of you would sell your soul as long as Bush is out.
I say have your own integrity and don't support people who use Hitler like tactics to arouse people to support their cause.
Don't be sheep. I hate to see so many sheep
History can repeat itself and Germany had a hell of a case of the sheepitus.
Fellowship
He's also willing to talk about race in a frank and open manner... it's not taboo for him... NOT because he's a racist... but because he believes that in order for the country to do well we have to come together as a community... and fight together against the inequities that plague all of us... regardless of race.
I abhore rasicm and prejudice... I would never give a candidate a free pass just because I think he might beat a republican.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Wow... I went to a Dean rally and I know exactly where he stands on race. He believes race should not be used to divide us... he believes the right has used the issue to do just that. He's saying don't let the fear tactics of the right make you vote a way that is not in your own self interest.
He's also willing to talk about race in a frank and open manner... it's not taboo for him... NOT because he's a racist... but because he believes that in order for the country to do well we have to come together as a community... and fight together against the inequities that plague all of us... regardless of race.
I abhore rasicm and prejudice... I would never give a candidate a free pass just because I think he might beat a republican.
I don't think a person running for president should use terms like "Guys driving pickup trucks in the south with confederate flags should vote for me" or what ever nonsense he said.
What logic does that offer to a campaign? What good does that do?
As far as race I have never voted for a republican because they had some kind of race policy. How has the "right" used race to divide people?
Could you tell me that?
Fellows
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/P...nt_civilrights
One of the reasons that I am running for president is to restore the ideal of the American community. Unfortunately, this ideal is under assault by the current Administration. The President pushes forward an agenda and policies that divide us. He divides us by race by using the word quota. He divides us by gender by attacking a woman's right to make her own health care decisions. He divides us by sexual orientation by supporting senators who have slandered gay Americans.
This is a campaign to unite and empower people everywhere. It is a call to every American, regardless of party, to join together in common purpose and for the common good to save and restore all that it means to be an American.
We seek an America where it is not enough to protect our own rights under the law, but where it is a duty and an obligation for each of us as Americans to make sure every American is equal under the law.
We seek an America where it is not enough to proclaim the words freedom, self-government, and democracy, but where it is a duty and a responsibility to participate together in common purpose with the sacrifice required of each of us to give those words meaning.
We seek an America where it is not enough that our own children have health care and good schools, but where our neighborsÕ children do as well.
This campaign is about who we are as Americans. It is the ideal of the American community that we seek to restore.
Fundamental to the restoration of the American community is the reaffirmation of the principles of Civil Rights and Justice. As President, I will work tirelessly to promote these principles:
*\t I will support affirmative action, from which we have all benefited, because it has strengthened our institutions and provided opportunity.
*\t I will unflinchingly defend a womanÕs right to choose against those who would take away this right.
*\t I will nominate federal judges with outstanding legal credentials, records of professional excellence, and demonstrated commitment to the constitutional principles of equality, liberty, and privacy.
*\t I will work to expand equal rights to same-sex couples and ban workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation, strengthen federal protections against anti-gay violence, give federal employees the right to name same-sex partners as beneficiaries, remove bias from our immigration laws, and end the militaryÕs ÒDonÕt Ask, DonÕt TellÓ policy.
*\t I will work to ensure that racial profiling ends and I will direct my Attorney General to use regulatory authority under existing anti-discrimination laws the 1964 Civil Rights Act to define racial profiling as discrimination, and to withhold federal funds from state and local law enforcement that violate those regulations.
*\tI will appoint an Attorney General who sees our constitution not as a document to be manipulated, ignored, and violated, but who recognizes and respects it as the fabric that binds the American community together.
*\tI will oppose expansion of the Patriot Act, efforts to remove sunset clauses included in the act, and I will seek to repeal the portions of the Patriot Act that are unconstitutional.
*\tI will put the weight of my office behind the Innocence Protection Act, proposed by Senator Patrick Leahy, which would expand access to DNA testing and strengthen the quality of lawyers for defendants facing the death penalty.
*\t I will protect the civil rights of immigrants detained by the Department of Homeland Security.
*\tI will work for federal legislation to restore the right to vote in any federal election for ex-felons who have paid their debt to society.
Together we have the power to halt this PresidentÕs divisive, destructive polices. Together we can restore the ideal of the American community. Integral to this restoration is the reaffirmation of the shared belief that everyone, regardless of race, sex, creed, sexual orientation, or immigration status is entitled to equal protection and justice.
The President pushes forward an agenda and policies that divide us. He divides us by race by using the word quota. He divides us by gender by attacking a woman's right to make her own health care decisions. He divides us by sexual orientation by supporting senators who have slandered gay Americans.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I voted for Bush and I will not vote for Bush again. I would suggest that means ole fellows has a bit of integrity within my character. Where on the other hand I see some on the boards here who abandon integrity at any cost as long as they can cheer like sheep cheer leaders for their man.
If our voting history is some sort of "integrity scorecard" than I'd be considered the most unimpaired. I voted for Bush Sr TWICE! I voted for Clinton once. I also voted for John McCain and Ralph Nader.
I am not the language police but I would suggest he drop the slime tactics he uses for free press and drop the trash talk and talk issues on face value.
What other slime tactics? These are very harsh words usually reserved for the most deplorable of candidates. I truly don't understand where this hatred comes from?
But again I am looking for a man or woman of integrity to lead the US where as many of you would sell your soul as long as Bush is out.
Yes, I want Bush out. However, I don't belong to the "anyone but Bush" camp. Again, if Dean doesn't pass your own litmus test, I wonder how Bush passed it in 2000.
I say have your own integrity and don't support people who use Hitler like tactics to arouse people to support their cause.
Hitler like tactics? Which ones has he used?
Originally posted by trumptman
Dean accepts different rules for guns regarding urban and rural areas. (secret white guy code for black and white areas) This is just another way of putting across a "I'll protect you from them" view.
This is just utter crap. I know black people that except the same 'different rules,' are they anti-black too?
No.
I can't believe you're stretching this to try and say Dean is a racist because of this.
Fellowship is funny about politicians. A couple months ago, he started a thread about how much he loved John Kerry. He's so fickle.
Fellowship, who in the world are you going to vote for if not Bush? It's very clear from your posts that you're a conservative, so why wouldn't you vote for the candidate who most represents your views?
Originally posted by bunge
This is just utter crap. I know black people that except the same 'different rules,' are they anti-black too?
No.
I can't believe you're stretching this to try and say Dean is a racist because of this.
Bingo! Trumpt's been hunting after Dean's "whitey" credentials ever since the "Dean Switch Campaign" thread a couple months ago. Sometimes whites are their own worst enemy, I swear.
This is going to stick to Dean like Plame on Rove...teflon.
Vermont has one of the lowest homicide rates in the United States. During myÊ11 years as Governor, the highest number of murders in a single year was 25 and the lowest number was five. Over half of these were domestic assaults, and the majority were not committed with a firearm.
If you say Ògun controlÓ in Vermont or Wyoming, people think it means taking away their hunting rifle. If you say "gun control" in New York City or Los Angeles, people are relieved at the prospect of having Uzis or illegal handguns taken off the streets. TheyÕre both right. ThatÕs why I think Vermont ought to be able to have a different set of laws than California.
I believe the federal gun laws we have -- like the Brady Bill -- are important, and I would veto any attempt to repeal or gut them. The Assault Weapons Ban expires next year, and it should be renewed. Although President Bush has claimed he supports renewing it, he is talking out both sides of his mouth; his staff has signaled that he doesnÕt want or expect Congress to renew the ban, and that is wrong.
I donÕt think we need a lot of new federal laws. But we do need to do a few things at the federal level, like requiring Insta-Check on all retail and gun show sales. We also must do a better job of enforcing the laws on the books. President Bush promised to be tough in enforcing gun laws, but his Administration has prosecuted only about 2% of all gun crimes and they are virtually ignoring 20 of the 22 major federal gun laws on the books. That is an abysmal record, and as President, IÕd make tough enforcement a reality, not just political rhetoric.
After that, I would let the states decide for themselves what, if any, additional gun safety laws they want. Just as we resist attempts by President Bush to dictate to the states how we run our school systems and what kind of welfare programs to have, we need to resist attempts to tell states how to deal with guns beyond existing federal law and fixing a few loopholes and problems.
This is politics. Dean is trying to pander to the south. He is hoping liberals like me will ignore it and still vote for him. We will. He is not racist and does care about core issues that affect everyone, including the south, like education and healthcare, two things NO Republicans have ever cared about. How is that "No tree..I mean child" program of Dubya doing? I remember having to take one of those stupid tests. Wasted a whole school day where I could have been doing AP chemistry, biology, calculus, and English. I hope Dean can play dirty and steal the south from Bush, in the end the Southerners will appreciate it when their healthcare and education are improved.
SDW Republicans do this all the time, we're not "roasting" them, everyone in the know already is aware that Strom Thurmond and his ilk are blatantly racist. Remember his recent party? Good ol' boys.
Originally posted by BRussell
Fellowship is funny about politicians. A couple months ago, he started a thread about how much he loved John Kerry. He's so fickle.
Fellowship, who in the world are you going to vote for if not Bush? It's very clear from your posts that you're a conservative, so why wouldn't you vote for the candidate who most represents your views?
It appears that a view that overrides his other conservative ideologies is the need for a president that makes half an effort to be honest with the public. If integrity is a trait that he feels to be most important, why should he vote for Bush?
Originally posted by BR
It appears that a view that overrides his other conservative ideologies is the need for a president that makes half an effort to be honest with the public. If integrity is a trait that he feels to be most important, why should he vote for Bush?
BR for President 2004
Fellows
Why are some afraid to have integrity and demand that leaders or would be leaders act with integrity?
What is there to be afraid of? Some just can not let go of their mothers breast (political party)
Let go of being (owned) by some less than honest political figure.
Own yourself and vote with integrity.
Fellows
Originally posted by BRussell
Again, who are you going to vote for Fellowship? Still John Kerry, or some other Democrat who strongly supports abortion rights and many other policies with which you disagree? The Greens who even more strongly support policies with which you disagree? Are you sure you're going to be able to tell who has integrity and who doesn't? If you apply this Dean standard of yours to all candidates, will you vote at all? Is not voting really an appropriate course of action for someone living in a democracy?
I can't fault you or blame you for not knowing every thing I post here on AO
Fellows
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
BR it is so refreshing that you are not beholden to any party. It is not a crime to support a given party but when one views all the people who will support party over integrity it makes one ask... Why?
Why are some afraid to have integrity and demand that leaders or would be leaders act with integrity?
What is there to be afraid of? Some just can not let go of their mothers breast (political party)
Let go of being (owned) by some less than honest political figure.
Own yourself and vote with integrity.
Fellows
No, the idea that one has to be independent of a political party to have integrity (as if party membership/support and integrity are mutually exclusive) is wrong. Integrity means "steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code." You cannot tell me that I cannot have integrity while voting for candidates that reflect that moral or ethical code.
I certainly agree that some people seem to steadfastly support everyone in their political party. That's not necessarily bad. The question is, does support of an elected member or candidate in a political party contradict one's moral or ethical code? Is the language of the support itself unethical, illogical, or just plain wrong? I think that's the problem more than anything else.
Now, we have significant problems here at AppleOutsider because some of us on either side of the Left-Right gap cannot seem to agree on the simplest facts, nevermind the more complex facts. Integrity is important here on the board not only as some abstract principle, but also as something necessary for discussion.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
No, the idea that one has to be independent of a political party to have integrity (as if party membership/support and integrity are mutually exclusive) is wrong. Integrity means "steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code." You cannot tell me that I cannot have integrity while voting for candidates that reflect that moral or ethical code.
I certainly agree that some people seem to steadfastly support everyone in their political party. That's not necessarily bad. The question is, does support of an elected member or candidate in a political party contradict one's moral or ethical code? Is the language of the support itself unethical, illogical, or just plain wrong? I think that's the problem more than anything else.
Now, we have significant problems here at AppleOutsider because some of us on either side of the Left-Right gap cannot seem to agree on the simplest facts, nevermind the more complex facts. Integrity is important here on the board not only as some abstract principle, but also as something necessary for discussion.
Shawn what I am saying is very simple and easy to grasp. I am only saying that when leaders or would be leaders of a political party I might normally support betray my trust due to identifiable reasons which I can list then I have the right to communicate "You have broken the trust Mr. Bush" I will no longer vote for you. That is integrity in keeping with my ethical code. My ethical code does not by default adapt to the twists and turns any member of any political party decides to take. I retain the right to adhear to my own ethical code.
My simple point was that some do not retain their own standards but rather adapt to any twist or turn as long as they can have their "team" win the footbal game.
I also made clear that it is not a crime to support any given political party. Read earlier postings.
Fellowship
Originally posted by trumptman
Seems Dean is in a bit of a stew for repeatedly courting what are potentially racist, white voters down in the South. When you add his perfect rating from the NRA and his current inability to generate minority support, it looks pretty bad.
There won't be/hasn't been MUCH of an outcry, not like there would be if he was a Republican (see Lott, Trent). Dean's the Dems' fair-haired boy at this point.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Shawn what I am saying is very simple and easy to grasp. I am only saying that when leaders or would be leaders of a political party I might normally support betray my trust due to identifiable reasons which I can list then I have the right to communicate "You have broken the trust Mr. Bush" I will no longer vote for you. That is integrity in keeping with my ethical code. My ethical code does not by default adapt to the twists and turns any menber of any political party decides to take. I retain the right to adhear to my own ethical code.
My simple point was that some do not retain their own standards but rather adapt to any twist or turn as long as they can have their "team" win the footbal game.
I also made clear that it is not a crime to support any given political party. Read earlier postings.
Fellowship
Fellowship, we basically agree with each other. Read the post you just quoted!