I can't fault you or blame you for not knowing every thing I post here on AO but I have said many times I may not even vote.
And that is exactly the logical consequence of this way of viewing politics. Personally, I don't see any integrity whatsoever in neglecting one of the very few responsibilities we have in American democracy. But I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you about this - I'd be happy to see Bush get as few votes as possible.
There won't be/hasn't been MUCH of an outcry, not like there would be if he was a Republican (see Lott, Trent). Dean's the Dems' fair-haired boy at this point.
That's because Dean's statements weren't wrong, nevermind racist or supportive of someone's presidential platform that included segregationist policies. You cannot compare the two situations! Dean did not say, "We wouldn't have had all these problems if you guys won the war." Dean said he wanted to be their candidate but on his own terms- that is support for his universal health care policy and better schools.
And that is exactly the logical consequence of this way of viewing politics. Personally, I don't see any integrity whatsoever in neglecting one of the very few responsibilities we have in American democracy. But I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you about this - I'd be happy to see Bush get as few votes as possible.
All I can say is that sometimes voting for the lesser of several "evils" is not always an option for me if I have nothing to vote for.
I would be the first to vote for somebody if that "somebody" was a person I could respect and trust.
Business owns this country and a Democracy I am not so sure we live in.
That's because Dean's statements weren't wrong, nevermind racist or supportive of someone's presidential platform that included segregationist policies. You cannot compare the two situations! Dean did not say, "We wouldn't have had all these problems if you guys won the war." Dean said he wanted to be their candidate but on his own terms- that is support for his universal health care policy and better schools.
Shawn I do not dislike Dean because I am afraid he endorsed racist policies. I dislike the choice of tactics Dean used when he makes characterizations of some in the south in pickups and flags.
In short Dean could talk issues on face value and not invoke the stereotype style language.
Dean could say "I want to be the President of All Americans"
No. What Dean did was to invoke cheap slimeball use of language as to get people talking about him at no charge.
I think such tactics while not a crime do indicate the signs of a man of little measure.
Sure I could walk into a Church one Sunday morning and yell "I HATE GOD" and let's say that could even be a true statement.(it's not) That does not make it the right thing to do.
So many here yourself included Shawn will defend anything as long as it is anybody other than Bush saying it.
That is where I have the reaction.
I think it would really not require much for people to apply the same standards to all people. We just don't seem to live in that kind of world however.
Ditto. This is really the heart of the matter. Bush is bad no matter how you slice him ( not a pun of wishful thinking on my part ). It doesn't matter what party or if you're right or left Bush is bad for america. He lies, he doesn't have the slightest clue on how to run the country, and in the end all he'll care about is saving face......his own.
The reasons I say this have been gone over here by many people in triplicate.
We probably won't have the perfect person next up in the whitehouse but any of them would be better than what we have now.
Bush must go before he does more damage. Just imagine what shape we'll be in if he was reelected for another four years.
Funny how the Bush haters (and they are allowed their opinion, I am not voting for Bush again myself) take a thread about Dean and turn it into one about Bush.
I guess all the anti Bush threads are not enough so the Dean thread needs derailing?
Hey fellowship.... are you denying that those guys driving pick up trucks with the confederate flag sticker exist?
He's not saying that's what everyone in the south is like...
All he said was we should appeal to them TOO because they have the same economic/health/education problems as everyone else...
That's it...
Why are southerners so defensive?
I am not angry with Dean because he is talking about southerners in a a certain light which can bee seen as negative. I think the south has a bad reputation for very good reason. I do not defend the south as I think much of it is indeed backwards. I am not running for President however and If I was I would not ask people with confederate flags to vote for me.
Turn the coin over and view it this way.
"Just a what if Example" Let's suppose in Germany a candidate was running for "president" and told a group that "I hope all you neo-nazis who have Nazi Stickers on your VW's will vote for me for your president too."
Is that acceptable? I argue the same arguement that NO IT IS AWFUL.
We do not live in the past. The south is part of the Union or the United States chu_bakka and Germans no longer live under a NAZI leadership.
That is my point.
My reason for disgust is that Dean has not the capacity to tell the "southerners" THE FIRST TIME AROUND that they should put the confederate flag AWAY.
He wasn't in Alabama infront of a group of white guys asking for those with a Confederate flag to vote for him.
He wasn't even in the south when he gave that speech.
He was saying that Bush's policies affect everyone... even THAT guy...THAT guy has a reason to vote for us...
I don't know where you get the idea that he's somehow endorsing the confederate flag. Dean sees race as a tool for division that's used by the right... a problem that can only get better by appealing to THAT guy and getting him to talk about his fears and expectations... it's that guy who votes for BUSH despite it being a bad idea... because the right uses the code words of intolerance and fear.
Racism is due to a culture of indifference and ignorance... the only way to make it any better is to get it out in the open and not demagogue every southerner who might have a confederate flag bumper sticker on his truck.
He wasn't in Alabama infront of a group of white guys asking for those with a Confederate flag to vote for him.
He wasn't even in the south when he gave that speech.
He was saying that Bush's policies affect everyone... even THAT guy...THAT guy has a reason to vote for us...
I don't know where you get the idea that he's somehow endorsing the confederate flag. Dean sees race as a tool for division that's used by the right... a problem that can only get better by appealing to THAT guy and getting him to talk about his fears and expectations... it's that guy who votes for BUSH despite it being a bad idea... because the right uses the code words of intolerance and fear.
Racism is due to a culture of indifference and ignorance... the only way to make it any better is to get it out in the open and not demagogue every southerner who might have a confederate flag pumper sticker on his truck.
I was clear with my points in this thread and it is now time for me to move on. I am sorry you choose to skip over my points but it is a free country "thank God" so go on ahead and do for dean (giving passes and excuses and defense) like so many others do for Bush.
Somewhat OT but I notice that the U.S. as a whole likes to use the south as a kind of defense against racism-- as in "real racism looks like white southern guy in a pick-up truck with a confederate flag on the bumper sticker, so I guess we're pretty much OK cause we don't look like that."
Where-as, having grown up in Alabama and then having lived in about a dozen different states outside the south, I can state unequivocally that real, virulent racism is alive and well throughout the country. It is alive and well right here in northern California. In fact, in places like Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio I encountered a fierceness born of ignorance and fear that I honestly didn't see in Alabama-- that is, African-Americans represented a terrifying "otherness", with few opportunities for the kind of close-up relations that inevitably lead to an easing of tension. I've also noticed in some of the enclaves of right thinking liberalism there are precious few people of color of any description, which I have to admit, liberal myself or no, kinda pisses me off when the easy dismisals of the "backwards south" start up. It frequently strikes me as nothing more than urban contempt for rural people, with the racism thing thrown in for good measure.
Before ya'll get too carried away with imagining you know what lies in the heart of that stock-character the "good-ol'-boy" , you might take a look around your own communities. The black fearing suburbanite might be driving an SUV instead of a pick-up truck, and might be sporting a "neighborhood association" bumper sticker instead of a confederate flag, but at the end of the day, they want an apartheid America where they don't have to associate with "those people".
Somewhat OT but I notice that the U.S. as a whole likes to use the south as a kind of defense against racism-- as in "real racism looks like white southern guy in a pick-up truck with a confederate flag on the bumper sticker, so I guess we're pretty much OK cause we don't look like that."
Where-as, having grown up in Alabama and then having lived in about a dozen different states outside the south, I can state unequivocally that real, virulent racism is alive and well throughout the country. It is alive and well right here in northern California. In fact, in places like Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio I encountered a fierceness born of ignorance and fear that I honestly didn't see in Alabama-- that is, African-Americans represented a terrifying "otherness", with few opportunities for the kind of close-up relations that inevitably lead to an easing of tension. I've also noticed in some of the enclaves of right thinking liberalism there are precious few people of color of any description, which I have to admit, liberal myself or no, kinda pisses me off when the easy dismisals of the "backwards south" start up. It frequently strikes me as nothing more than urban contempt for rural people, with the racism thing thrown in for good measure.
Before ya'll get too carried away with imagining you know what lies in the heart of that stock-character the "good-ol'-boy" , you might take a look around your own communities. The black fearing suburbanite might be driving an SUV instead of a pick-up truck, and might be sporting a "neighborhood association" bumber sticker instead of a confederate flag, but at the end of the day, they want an apartheid America where they don't have to associate with "those people".
Funny how the Bush haters (and they are allowed their opinion, I am not voting for Bush again myself) take a thread about Dean and turn it into one about Bush.
I guess all the anti Bush threads are not enough so the Dean thread needs derailing?
Racism exists... all over. It is by no means limited to the south. I think the South gets a bad rap because of the Civil war... and the institutional seperate but "equal" laws that followed... and and get the rap somewhat deservedly so...
Fear of the "other" is what the right stokes in the south AND everywhere else... and does it quite well.
And Dean wants to talk about racism as it exists today... everywhere... that's why he's not afraid to get the vote of the guy driving the truck with a confederate flag sticker... he knows the Mom driving the SUV to soccer practice has the same prejudices too.
Comments
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I can't fault you or blame you for not knowing every thing I post here on AO
And that is exactly the logical consequence of this way of viewing politics. Personally, I don't see any integrity whatsoever in neglecting one of the very few responsibilities we have in American democracy. But I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you about this - I'd be happy to see Bush get as few votes as possible.
Originally posted by finboy
There won't be/hasn't been MUCH of an outcry, not like there would be if he was a Republican (see Lott, Trent). Dean's the Dems' fair-haired boy at this point.
That's because Dean's statements weren't wrong, nevermind racist or supportive of someone's presidential platform that included segregationist policies. You cannot compare the two situations! Dean did not say, "We wouldn't have had all these problems if you guys won the war." Dean said he wanted to be their candidate but on his own terms- that is support for his universal health care policy and better schools.
Originally posted by BRussell
And that is exactly the logical consequence of this way of viewing politics. Personally, I don't see any integrity whatsoever in neglecting one of the very few responsibilities we have in American democracy. But I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you about this - I'd be happy to see Bush get as few votes as possible.
All I can say is that sometimes voting for the lesser of several "evils" is not always an option for me if I have nothing to vote for.
I would be the first to vote for somebody if that "somebody" was a person I could respect and trust.
Business owns this country and a Democracy I am not so sure we live in.
If I vote or not I am afraid the above is true.
Fellows
Originally posted by ShawnJ
That's because Dean's statements weren't wrong, nevermind racist or supportive of someone's presidential platform that included segregationist policies. You cannot compare the two situations! Dean did not say, "We wouldn't have had all these problems if you guys won the war." Dean said he wanted to be their candidate but on his own terms- that is support for his universal health care policy and better schools.
Shawn I do not dislike Dean because I am afraid he endorsed racist policies. I dislike the choice of tactics Dean used when he makes characterizations of some in the south in pickups and flags.
In short Dean could talk issues on face value and not invoke the stereotype style language.
Dean could say "I want to be the President of All Americans"
No. What Dean did was to invoke cheap slimeball use of language as to get people talking about him at no charge.
I think such tactics while not a crime do indicate the signs of a man of little measure.
Sure I could walk into a Church one Sunday morning and yell "I HATE GOD" and let's say that could even be a true statement.(it's not) That does not make it the right thing to do.
So many here yourself included Shawn will defend anything as long as it is anybody other than Bush saying it.
That is where I have the
I think it would really not require much for people to apply the same standards to all people. We just don't seem to live in that kind of world however.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
So many here yourself included Shawn will defend anything as long as it is anybody other than Bush saying it.
You're right. I really do think Bush is that bad.
I may not even vote.
People who don't vote should forfeit talking.
Originally posted by Aquatic
People who don't vote should forfeit talking.
He's not saying that's what everyone in the south is like...
All he said was we should appeal to them TOO because they have the same economic/health/education problems as everyone else...
That's it...
Why are southerners so defensive?
Originally posted by Aquatic
People who don't vote should forfeit talking.
I used to think that too. Until Dec 2000 when i realized that even if you do vote it may not matter if your have an effective court case...
Now i don't know what to say when people say things along similar lines. This Nov. (as long as we do not use diebold machines) may sway me back.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
You're right. I really do think Bush is that bad.
Ditto. This is really the heart of the matter. Bush is bad no matter how you slice him ( not a pun of wishful thinking on my part ). It doesn't matter what party or if you're right or left Bush is bad for america. He lies, he doesn't have the slightest clue on how to run the country, and in the end all he'll care about is saving face......his own.
The reasons I say this have been gone over here by many people in triplicate.
We probably won't have the perfect person next up in the whitehouse but any of them would be better than what we have now.
Bush must go before he does more damage. Just imagine what shape we'll be in if he was reelected for another four years.
Originally posted by jimmac
Just imagine what shape we'll be in if he was reelected for another four years.
A horrifying thought.
He'll probably request another $80-120B to rebuild Iraq.
The death toll in Iraq will break 600.
He'll probably request $60B to wage another war (in the name of the holy war against terrorism). Syria, NK, Iran, whatever.
He'll probably request $80B to rebuild said nation.
Our 10 year projection for debt will increase to 2 Trillion.
Employment numbers will remain stagnant.
Huge increases in off-shore jobs.
AmeriCorps will officially be dismantled.
The Boys & Girls Club will close 60% of its locations.
I guess all the anti Bush threads are not enough so the Dean thread needs derailing?
Wimps.
Fellowship
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Hey fellowship.... are you denying that those guys driving pick up trucks with the confederate flag sticker exist?
He's not saying that's what everyone in the south is like...
All he said was we should appeal to them TOO because they have the same economic/health/education problems as everyone else...
That's it...
Why are southerners so defensive?
I am not angry with Dean because he is talking about southerners in a a certain light which can bee seen as negative. I think the south has a bad reputation for very good reason. I do not defend the south as I think much of it is indeed backwards. I am not running for President however and If I was I would not ask people with confederate flags to vote for me.
Turn the coin over and view it this way.
"Just a what if Example" Let's suppose in Germany a candidate was running for "president" and told a group that "I hope all you neo-nazis who have Nazi Stickers on your VW's will vote for me for your president too."
Is that acceptable? I argue the same arguement that NO IT IS AWFUL.
We do not live in the past. The south is part of the Union or the United States chu_bakka and Germans no longer live under a NAZI leadership.
That is my point.
My reason for disgust is that Dean has not the capacity to tell the "southerners" THE FIRST TIME AROUND that they should put the confederate flag AWAY.
This is 2003.
Fellowship
He wasn't even in the south when he gave that speech.
He was saying that Bush's policies affect everyone... even THAT guy...THAT guy has a reason to vote for us...
I don't know where you get the idea that he's somehow endorsing the confederate flag. Dean sees race as a tool for division that's used by the right... a problem that can only get better by appealing to THAT guy and getting him to talk about his fears and expectations... it's that guy who votes for BUSH despite it being a bad idea... because the right uses the code words of intolerance and fear.
Racism is due to a culture of indifference and ignorance... the only way to make it any better is to get it out in the open and not demagogue every southerner who might have a confederate flag bumper sticker on his truck.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
He wasn't in Alabama infront of a group of white guys asking for those with a Confederate flag to vote for him.
He wasn't even in the south when he gave that speech.
He was saying that Bush's policies affect everyone... even THAT guy...THAT guy has a reason to vote for us...
I don't know where you get the idea that he's somehow endorsing the confederate flag. Dean sees race as a tool for division that's used by the right... a problem that can only get better by appealing to THAT guy and getting him to talk about his fears and expectations... it's that guy who votes for BUSH despite it being a bad idea... because the right uses the code words of intolerance and fear.
Racism is due to a culture of indifference and ignorance... the only way to make it any better is to get it out in the open and not demagogue every southerner who might have a confederate flag pumper sticker on his truck.
I was clear with my points in this thread and it is now time for me to move on. I am sorry you choose to skip over my points but it is a free country "thank God" so go on ahead and do for dean (giving passes and excuses and defense) like so many others do for Bush.
Fellowship
You don't seem to read my points anyway.
I would never give someone a free pass if they we using racism to get ahead.
You just don't like Dean and refuse to see what his views are.
Where-as, having grown up in Alabama and then having lived in about a dozen different states outside the south, I can state unequivocally that real, virulent racism is alive and well throughout the country. It is alive and well right here in northern California. In fact, in places like Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio I encountered a fierceness born of ignorance and fear that I honestly didn't see in Alabama-- that is, African-Americans represented a terrifying "otherness", with few opportunities for the kind of close-up relations that inevitably lead to an easing of tension. I've also noticed in some of the enclaves of right thinking liberalism there are precious few people of color of any description, which I have to admit, liberal myself or no, kinda pisses me off when the easy dismisals of the "backwards south" start up. It frequently strikes me as nothing more than urban contempt for rural people, with the racism thing thrown in for good measure.
Before ya'll get too carried away with imagining you know what lies in the heart of that stock-character the "good-ol'-boy" , you might take a look around your own communities. The black fearing suburbanite might be driving an SUV instead of a pick-up truck, and might be sporting a "neighborhood association" bumper sticker instead of a confederate flag, but at the end of the day, they want an apartheid America where they don't have to associate with "those people".
Originally posted by addabox
Somewhat OT but I notice that the U.S. as a whole likes to use the south as a kind of defense against racism-- as in "real racism looks like white southern guy in a pick-up truck with a confederate flag on the bumper sticker, so I guess we're pretty much OK cause we don't look like that."
Where-as, having grown up in Alabama and then having lived in about a dozen different states outside the south, I can state unequivocally that real, virulent racism is alive and well throughout the country. It is alive and well right here in northern California. In fact, in places like Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio I encountered a fierceness born of ignorance and fear that I honestly didn't see in Alabama-- that is, African-Americans represented a terrifying "otherness", with few opportunities for the kind of close-up relations that inevitably lead to an easing of tension. I've also noticed in some of the enclaves of right thinking liberalism there are precious few people of color of any description, which I have to admit, liberal myself or no, kinda pisses me off when the easy dismisals of the "backwards south" start up. It frequently strikes me as nothing more than urban contempt for rural people, with the racism thing thrown in for good measure.
Before ya'll get too carried away with imagining you know what lies in the heart of that stock-character the "good-ol'-boy" , you might take a look around your own communities. The black fearing suburbanite might be driving an SUV instead of a pick-up truck, and might be sporting a "neighborhood association" bumber sticker instead of a confederate flag, but at the end of the day, they want an apartheid America where they don't have to associate with "those people".
Fantastic post.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Funny how the Bush haters (and they are allowed their opinion, I am not voting for Bush again myself) take a thread about Dean and turn it into one about Bush.
I guess all the anti Bush threads are not enough so the Dean thread needs derailing?
Wimps.
Fellowship
I believe it was Trumptman who derailed this.
Racism exists... all over. It is by no means limited to the south. I think the South gets a bad rap because of the Civil war... and the institutional seperate but "equal" laws that followed... and and get the rap somewhat deservedly so...
Fear of the "other" is what the right stokes in the south AND everywhere else... and does it quite well.
And Dean wants to talk about racism as it exists today... everywhere... that's why he's not afraid to get the vote of the guy driving the truck with a confederate flag sticker... he knows the Mom driving the SUV to soccer practice has the same prejudices too.