yes, it has more than one association outside the south, perhaps. but if you were here, instead of in your sheltered existence in california, you might not think the same way...
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.
Why doesn't Kickaha have the same perspective as you since he's lived in the Northwest and South? And he lives in the TRUE South mind you.
not true. civil war: 1861-65. america enters vietnam in 64 and leaves in 73.
65-61=4. 73-64=9. 9>4.
Tough to say really. The first combat ready troops arrived in 1965 and the first major engagement wasn't till the end of that year. The withdrawl process actually began in 1969.
Abraham Lincoln declared an end to slavery in 1860.
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.
Why doesn't Kickaha have the same perspective as you since he's lived in the Northwest and South? And he lives in the TRUE South mind you.
Oh, that's because I'm a card carrying member of the KKK and NASCAR Fan Club, of course. :P
I have to admit, living here for a while really hammered home the fact that only the winners of a war write the history books. It's eye-opening to live in an area that has actually undergone occupation and systematic destruction of an economic base. Two sides to every story, yadda yadda yadda.
I'm about as socially liberal as you're going to find, honestly, but I'm also a cynical bastard when it comes to written histories. What I was spoon-fed as a child regarding the Civil War wasn't any better than what I was told regarding the Vietnam War. Both were much messier than anyone ever let on, but only be portraying them as clear cut issues can they be sanitized for future generations. :P
I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."
But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.
If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?
You can't be proud of part of your history and expect eveyone to ignore the rest.... because you want to ignore it.
The north and south didn't fight a civil war over "traditonal values" or taxes... the Rebel flag is a battle flag... created as the National flag for the states that wanted to succeed from the union. That's why the south was united. Why is it such a great thing to be proud of? Is the south one monolithic state now... are Georgians the same as Alabamans?
Hey if your proud of where your from... fly your state flag... then you seperate the confederacy from being a proud southerner.
I question I often ask myself, watching flag-toting cretins all over the place. But we were talking about the confederate flag, and I don't think changing the subject is a good or fruitful discussion strategy.
The question at hand is "Why would people choose to display the Confederate flag when it has so many distasteful associations?
One way to answer that is to consider why people would display any flag.
For instance: what do you say to the native American that lives next door when he tells you he finds the American flag offensive? If you're like most Americans, probably something like "Get over it". That is, get over the whole wiping out most of your people and consigning the pitiful remnents to the most godforsaken chunks land available.
But the general idea is that "sense-of-tribal-belonging" trumps the past, even when aggrieved members of that past make their unhappiness known.
Now the notion among many Americans seems to be that the Confederate flag stands for only the worst aspects of southern history, and that those that choose to display it are championing those values.
I happen to think that this is no more true than believing that the American flag represents, for those that display it, an endorsement of the darkest chapters in American history-- that is, somewhat true but not necessarily the main sentiment.
In other words, "sense-of-tribal-belonging" is the real motive here, for better or worse.
Personally, I have no use for any of it, but my southern upbringing obliges me to speak to the issue.
I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."
But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.
If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?
Sure, and Mercedes-Benz built engines for the German Messerschmitts and Japanese Zeros. Does that make the Benz emblem a symbol of the evil Axis?
Would you extend the inappropriateness of the swastika to Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism?
And it was incorporated into the flag probably in the late 40's or 50's... I think if that's what the state is doing now... that's fine... but the confederacy doesn't exist anymore.
I think that if you fly any flag you have to be willing to deal with the consequences... you can't tell anyone to get over it.
And it was incorporated into the flag probably in the late 40's or 50's... I think if that's what the state is doing now... that's fine... but the confederacy doesn't exist anymore.
I think that if you fly any flag you have to be willing to deal with the consequences... you can't tell anyone to get over it.
I completely agree.
My point is that the passions of the "southerner" who bridles at being asked to remove "his" flag are of the same general nature as the "American" who resents ditto.
The fact that the US is a current political entity and the Confederacy is gone with the wind just speaks to the persistance of tribalism and the history of north/south relations and doesn't make it a different thing altogether.
And if you're ok with it. What does that say about you?
I'm mostly devil's advocating here, but:
What does it say about the American flag waver when for many around the globe the US flag has become a symbol of imperialism and the raw exercise of power? Mostly that the American flag waver is likely to be surrounded by the like minded, with the offended comfortably across the water.
i have never seen a mullet here at A&M, but whatever...
austin is the only place in this state that isnt incredible conservative, so you got that whole segregation part backwards. it is AUSTIN that is different from the rest of texas, and not the other way around. stop denying it--i have lived here long enough and been across the state enough times to see this.
i know you want to be proud of your state, but you have to accept it for what it is...
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
In defense of Texas...
_alliance_ goes to school at Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas.
A&M is where you send your little xenophobic mullet children when they whine about different colored and those who speak different languages.
We, as Texans, have managed to push most of the racist rednecks in the direction of A&M and we one day hope to get them all on a big boat with the promise of lots of sheep to and send the boat out to sea.
I am sorry for the unsightly nature of these morons, the boat is still being built and as the rednecks breed like roaches the design has to be changed to accomodate more and more Aggies.
Please do not judge the entire state by looking at Aggies, they are pathetic and non-representative.
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.
exactly! now listen to what you just wrote and maybe you'll understand your hypocrisy from earlier in the thread and undestand how silly you're coming off as...
I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."
But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.
If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?
You can't be proud of part of your history and expect eveyone to ignore the rest.... because you want to ignore it.
The north and south didn't fight a civil war over "traditonal values" or taxes... the Rebel flag is a battle flag... created as the National flag for the states that wanted to succeed from the union. That's why the south was united. Why is it such a great thing to be proud of? Is the south one monolithic state now... are Georgians the same as Alabamans?
Hey if your proud of where your from... fly your state flag... then you seperate the confederacy from being a proud southerner.
Comments
1) The battlefield was so close to home
2) It was the last American war that wasn't mechanized
3) It lasted longer than American involvement in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam.
Jeez, it wasn't because they hated the other side more. I'm sure Americans hated the Triple Alliance, Axis and Vietcong plenty...
Originally posted by _ alliance _
yes, it has more than one association outside the south, perhaps. but if you were here, instead of in your sheltered existence in california, you might not think the same way...
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.
Why doesn't Kickaha have the same perspective as you since he's lived in the Northwest and South? And he lives in the TRUE South mind you.
Originally posted by Eugene
[The American Civil War] lasted longer than American involvement in [...] Vietnam.
not true. civil war: 1861-65. america enters vietnam in 64 and leaves in 73.
65-61=4. 73-64=9. 9>4.
Originally posted by thuh Freak
not true. civil war: 1861-65. america enters vietnam in 64 and leaves in 73.
65-61=4. 73-64=9. 9>4.
Tough to say really. The first combat ready troops arrived in 1965 and the first major engagement wasn't till the end of that year. The withdrawl process actually began in 1969.
Abraham Lincoln declared an end to slavery in 1860.
Originally posted by Eugene
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.
Why doesn't Kickaha have the same perspective as you since he's lived in the Northwest and South? And he lives in the TRUE South mind you.
Oh, that's because I'm a card carrying member of the KKK and NASCAR Fan Club, of course. :P
I have to admit, living here for a while really hammered home the fact that only the winners of a war write the history books.
I'm about as socially liberal as you're going to find, honestly, but I'm also a cynical bastard when it comes to written histories. What I was spoon-fed as a child regarding the Civil War wasn't any better than what I was told regarding the Vietnam War. Both were much messier than anyone ever let on, but only be portraying them as clear cut issues can they be sanitized for future generations. :P
But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.
If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?
You can't be proud of part of your history and expect eveyone to ignore the rest.... because you want to ignore it.
The north and south didn't fight a civil war over "traditonal values" or taxes... the Rebel flag is a battle flag... created as the National flag for the states that wanted to succeed from the union. That's why the south was united. Why is it such a great thing to be proud of? Is the south one monolithic state now... are Georgians the same as Alabamans?
Hey if your proud of where your from... fly your state flag... then you seperate the confederacy from being a proud southerner.
Originally posted by der Kopf
I question I often ask myself, watching flag-toting cretins all over the place. But we were talking about the confederate flag, and I don't think changing the subject is a good or fruitful discussion strategy.
The question at hand is "Why would people choose to display the Confederate flag when it has so many distasteful associations?
One way to answer that is to consider why people would display any flag.
For instance: what do you say to the native American that lives next door when he tells you he finds the American flag offensive? If you're like most Americans, probably something like "Get over it". That is, get over the whole wiping out most of your people and consigning the pitiful remnents to the most godforsaken chunks land available.
But the general idea is that "sense-of-tribal-belonging" trumps the past, even when aggrieved members of that past make their unhappiness known.
Now the notion among many Americans seems to be that the Confederate flag stands for only the worst aspects of southern history, and that those that choose to display it are championing those values.
I happen to think that this is no more true than believing that the American flag represents, for those that display it, an endorsement of the darkest chapters in American history-- that is, somewhat true but not necessarily the main sentiment.
In other words, "sense-of-tribal-belonging" is the real motive here, for better or worse.
Personally, I have no use for any of it, but my southern upbringing obliges me to speak to the issue.
I do... only problem is that our state flag has the rebel flag incorporated in it.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."
But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.
If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?
Sure, and Mercedes-Benz built engines for the German Messerschmitts and Japanese Zeros. Does that make the Benz emblem a symbol of the evil Axis?
Would you extend the inappropriateness of the swastika to Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism?
I think that if you fly any flag you have to be willing to deal with the consequences... you can't tell anyone to get over it.
How many hindus fly a red flag with the swastika on it?
How many flags in "modern" times have had the swastika on it?
Actually, I can... Get over it.
There are too many other issues that are much more important.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
And it was incorporated into the flag probably in the late 40's or 50's... I think if that's what the state is doing now... that's fine... but the confederacy doesn't exist anymore.
I think that if you fly any flag you have to be willing to deal with the consequences... you can't tell anyone to get over it.
I completely agree.
My point is that the passions of the "southerner" who bridles at being asked to remove "his" flag are of the same general nature as the "American" who resents ditto.
The fact that the US is a current political entity and the Confederacy is gone with the wind just speaks to the persistance of tribalism and the history of north/south relations and doesn't make it a different thing altogether.
People thinking you're racist is one of them.
And if you're ok with it. What does that say about you?
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Then you have to deal with the consequences.
People thinking you're racist is one of them.
And if you're ok with it. What does that say about you?
I'm mostly devil's advocating here, but:
What does it say about the American flag waver when for many around the globe the US flag has become a symbol of imperialism and the raw exercise of power? Mostly that the American flag waver is likely to be surrounded by the like minded, with the offended comfortably across the water.
Then you have to deal with the consequences.
People thinking you're racist is one of them.
And if you're ok with it. What does that say about you?
------------------
Oooh! What a conundrum. Thanks for making me think about something other than my sister!
silly grover...
i have never seen a mullet here at A&M, but whatever...
austin is the only place in this state that isnt incredible conservative, so you got that whole segregation part backwards. it is AUSTIN that is different from the rest of texas, and not the other way around. stop denying it--i have lived here long enough and been across the state enough times to see this.
i know you want to be proud of your state, but you have to accept it for what it is...
Originally posted by groverat
In defense of Texas...
_alliance_ goes to school at Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas.
A&M is where you send your little xenophobic mullet children when they whine about different colored and those who speak different languages.
We, as Texans, have managed to push most of the racist rednecks in the direction of A&M and we one day hope to get them all on a big boat with the promise of lots of sheep to
I am sorry for the unsightly nature of these morons, the boat is still being built and as the rednecks breed like roaches the design has to be changed to accomodate more and more Aggies.
Please do not judge the entire state by looking at Aggies, they are pathetic and non-representative.
Originally posted by groverat
I can't wait for the day when all the rebel flag carrying morons are all killed in a stadium collapse at a NASCAR event.
haha, finally something i agree with grover on.
Originally posted by Eugene
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.
exactly! now listen to what you just wrote and maybe you'll understand your hypocrisy from earlier in the thread and undestand how silly you're coming off as...
Originally posted by chu_bakka
I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."
But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.
If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?
You can't be proud of part of your history and expect eveyone to ignore the rest.... because you want to ignore it.
The north and south didn't fight a civil war over "traditonal values" or taxes... the Rebel flag is a battle flag... created as the National flag for the states that wanted to succeed from the union. That's why the south was united. Why is it such a great thing to be proud of? Is the south one monolithic state now... are Georgians the same as Alabamans?
Hey if your proud of where your from... fly your state flag... then you seperate the confederacy from being a proud southerner.