You may be disgusted by what you think you know, but that flaf NEVER flew over a slave trader ship, the American Flag did, in a different time, I am southern and I do civil war reenacting, NOT to say that I agree that slavery was good, but it is a part of our history, and how can you know where you are going unless you can learn from where you have been? Now before you condemn the south, why don't you do some research and find out how many slaves were in the northern states, and read Abe Lincoln's emancipation proclamation very carefully first.
you went quite a ways out of your way to search for this thread and register to post this little rant. and there's nothing in there that most people on here (i have to assume, maybe wrongly) already know. but have fun killing yankees.
of course it's legal to display them, i just don't understand why anyone would want to...
to piss people off?
Take a look at a online street map of Japan and scroll around for a minute. You will see several swastikas, but they don't stand for Nazi party meeting houses... it denotes Buddhist temples.
I have never seen a right-bent swastika in Asia. They all lean to the left. The Nazi Swastika leans to the right.
Sure, historically, there may have been more prevalence of the right leaning swastika in Asian culture, but the Nazis took the symbol and made it their own. I'm willing to bet that any right-leaning swastika in a Buddhist temple is pre-WW2.
Regarding the Confederate flag honoring soldiers who fought in the Civil war, those soldiers fought for one reason, and one reason alone. To defend the legality of slavery. To me that's not something to be honored. It's something to be ashamed of. It's like the Japanese going to their war shrines. You do not honor heroism when that heroism was done in the name of hatred. To do so perpetuates that hatred.
Not all soldiers who fall in battle are actually fighting for the cause of that battle but rather because the state in which they lived required them to fight or face punishment which sometimes included death. To make them and their families suffer for eternity is itself an immoral act possibly worse than any acts they themselves may have committed.
Every country on the face of the planet has fought wars that were not worth of respect at some time in their history. If we choose to live in the past, then no country would allow anyone to honor their war dead.
Honoring the fallen is one thing, but using a flag or symbol to perpetuate a state of understanding is another. There are people who hide behind flags in all nations shouting words of pride and hate; they should be dealt with. A boy whose grandfather died under his nation's flag who hopes his country's leader will visit his grandfather's grave should have that wish fulfilled, whatever country he lives in as long as the visit is conducted in an appropriate manner. If the fallen is never honored, and the incident hushed up, the lack of respect and/or understanding may perpetuate the very atmosphere that led to the conflict in the first place, or at least lead to other problems down the road.
The appropriate manner also is different from culture to culture and religion to religion and we must understand that there are different strokes for different folks, which is not always that easy to swallow.
I know, I know, and I acknowledged that right leaning swastikas exist. I've never been to India, so I don't know if the Hindu symbol is common. But in Hong Kong, Taiwan, throughout China, in Thailand, Philippines, I haven't seen a right leaning swastika that didn't pre-date WW2. That's not saying that they don't exist. It's just that out of every 100 swastikas you see in greater China, I bet one or two are right facing.
Not all soldiers who fall in battle are actually fighting for the cause of that battle but rather because the state in which they lived required them to fight or face punishment which sometimes included death. To make them and their families suffer for eternity is itself an immoral act possibly worse than any acts they themselves may have committed.
Every country on the face of the planet has fought wars that were not worth of respect at some time in their history. If we choose to live in the past, then no country would allow anyone to honor their war dead.
Honoring the fallen is one thing, but using a flag or symbol to perpetuate a state of understanding is another. There are people who hide behind flags in all nations shouting words of pride and hate; they should be dealt with. A boy whose grandfather died under his nation's flag who hopes his country's leader will visit his grandfather's grave should have that wish fulfilled, whatever country he lives in as long as the visit is conducted in an appropriate manner. If the fallen is never honored, and the incident hushed up, the lack of respect and/or understanding may perpetuate the very atmosphere that led to the conflict in the first place, or at least lead to other problems down the road.
The appropriate manner also is different from culture to culture and religion to religion and we must understand that there are different strokes for different folks, which is not always that easy to swallow.
So if your grandfather or great grandfather fought for the Nazis in WW2, would you display the Nazi flag?
It's alright for you to be proud that he was a brave soldier. But because of what the nazis stood for, you should be relegated to keeping your feelings to yourself.
This thread is some kind of freaky perennial that keeps coming back from the grave every one or two years because a random indignant Southerner caught wind of some damn computer boys dissing the confederate flag.
What, are they parcelling out the internet a little bit at a time down there, these days? Do the loyal bearers of Confederate Dignity have the slowest RSS feeds ever conceived?
Take a look at a online street map of Japan and scroll around for a minute. You will see several swastikas, but they don't stand for Nazi party meeting houses... it denotes Buddhist temples.
that's fantastic. however, it's a completely different situation, and you know it. the confederate flag did not ever mean anything completely and utterly different (like your example). it has always stood for one thing, and one thing only.
the swastika is an interesting example though, of taking an already widely used symbol and completely associating it with a distinct and definitive meaning. as has already been said the swastika was around long before the nazis. but now when you see that symbol you only think one thing. as for the confederate flag, is there honestly anything other the confederacy that it could represent? yeah yeah, southern pride and heritage and other crap, etc...but that is so full of ignorance that it is not worth arguing against. oh well...
Oh no you don't. You don't get to just rattle on like everything was all perfectly fine.
This thread ran for a while, got dropped for 6 months, revived for a few posts, got dropped for two and a half years, got resuscitated by a hopped up nut job we've never heard from before or since, got dropped for another year, and has now been once again dragged from the grave by "Alabama Grandma", whose one and only post figures to be her last.
We are now over four years into this thing, and apparently the powerless play thing any cranky Southerner with way too much time on their hands.
I demand an accounting of this weirdness before any more damn flag talk.
Oh no you don't. You don't get to just rattle on like everything was all perfectly fine.
This thread ran for a while, got dropped for 6 months, revived for a few posts, got dropped for two and a half years, got resuscitated by a hopped up nut job we've never heard from before or since, got dropped for another year, and has now been once again dragged from the grave by "Alabama Grandma", whose one and only post figures to be her last.
We are now over four years into this thing, and apparently the powerless play thing any cranky Southerner with way too much time on their hands.
I demand an accounting of this weirdness before any more damn flag talk.
They're looking for a fight and it shows up on a Google search.
The damage to the southern states due to the civil war was immense, they are only just now recovering from the civil war - just like black people are still recovering from slavery. It is all very well and good for rich northerners to look down on the southerners, when the northern states caused the southern misery.
The north didn't leave southern whites much left to hang on to - they are still economically disadvantaged (and have been ever since the civil war), oppressed (there is significant bias in society against southern people, particularly ones with accents), and have been crushed. What else do they have left to hang on to besides the battle flag of the confederacy?
I think that as the south becomes richer and more educated, this flag thing will become less of an issue - but in the mean time I think some of you all need to get a bit of a clue, and look at the damage done by the north.
Quote:
Originally Posted by der Kopf
I wonder what the things were you didn't like in Paris...
Smokers everywhere, dog shit everywhere. If you sit by yourself in an empty restaurant, in the middle of the "non smoking section", some asshole French smoker will come sit at the next table and blow smoke at you, and they you will step in dog shit on the way out of the place. Happens every time.
The damage to the southern states due to the civil war was immense, they are only just now recovering from the civil war - just like black people are still recovering from slavery. It is all very well and good for rich northerners to look down on the southerners, when the northern states caused the southern misery.
The north didn't leave southern whites much left to hang on to - they are still economically disadvantaged (and have been ever since the civil war), oppressed (there is significant bias in society against southern people, particularly ones with accents), and have been crushed. What else do they have left to hang on to besides the battle flag of the confederacy?
I think that as the south becomes richer and more educated, this flag thing will become less of an issue - but in the mean time I think some of you all need to get a bit of a clue, and look at the damage done by the north.
Smokers everywhere, dog shit everywhere. If you sit by yourself in an empty restaurant, in the middle of the "non smoking section", some asshole French smoker will come sit at the next table and blow smoke at you, and they you will step in dog shit on the way out of the place. Happens every time.
And the damage done to the Nazis in WWII was immense. Japanese too.
But they got over it already, and they've had less than half the time. And it's not the North's fault the Southerners suffered! That's like saying it's the Allies' fault the Germans suffered!
The Civil war was started because the Southern States didn't want to end slavery, so they decided to break the law of the United States of America and secede from the Union. They made their bed. Now they've been laying in it for nearly 150 years, feeling sorry for their loss. If people in the North don't respect them it's because they cling to things like the Confederate flag, which represents slavery, like it or not. The South is the home of the KKK, Nascar and Southern Evangelism, which is currently the most hatred spreading movement in the Nation. If Southerners want acceptance they need to let go of the things that made them assholes in the past, not embrace them.
But they got over it already, and they've had less than half the time. And it's not the North's fault the Southerners suffered! That's like saying it's the Allies' fault the Germans suffered!
Actually the parallel is there, but it is with WWI. Germany suffered after WWI, mainly due to the French being dicks about the whole thing. It is the Allies (mainly French) fault that Germany suffered so much after WWI, and it was that suffering that let Hitler get to power and caused WWII.
Also, the south did not have the manufacturing base that Germany had to help them recover. Also, Germany recovered because the US paid for their recovery.
Hitchens has a quite good piece up about Huckabee's racist appeal to the Confederate flag. That writer has been a real douche for the last decade or so, but when he's on, he's on.
Quote:
One might add a couple of other points. The political flag of the Confederacy?the so-called "Stars and Bars"?is one thing. The battle flag of the Confederate army; the most militant symbolic form that secession and slavery ever took, is quite another. Under this fiery cross of St. Andrew, the state of Pennsylvania was invaded and free Americans were rounded up and re-enslaved. Under this same cross, it was announced that any Union officer commanding freed-slave soldiers, or any of his men, would be executed if captured. (In other words, war crimes were boasted of in advance.) The 13 stars of the same flag include stars for two states?Kentucky and Missouri?that never did secede, and they thus express a clear ambition to conquer free and independent states. And this is the symbol that Huckabee, seeking to ingratiate himself with the lowest element and lowest common denominator, calls "your flag." You might as well do a cross-burning and have done with it, and we all know how the networks would react if some ignorant kids did that.
I haven't used a flag in a while... Like since I was 12 or something at a football (soccer?) match. I've lived and worked in about 4 or so countries now and in each country anyway there are so many flags for different states, etc.
Comments
You may be disgusted by what you think you know, but that flaf NEVER flew over a slave trader ship, the American Flag did, in a different time, I am southern and I do civil war reenacting, NOT to say that I agree that slavery was good, but it is a part of our history, and how can you know where you are going unless you can learn from where you have been? Now before you condemn the south, why don't you do some research and find out how many slaves were in the northern states, and read Abe Lincoln's emancipation proclamation very carefully first.
you went quite a ways out of your way to search for this thread and register to post this little rant. and there's nothing in there that most people on here (i have to assume, maybe wrongly) already know. but have fun killing yankees.
of course it's legal to display them, i just don't understand why anyone would want to...
to piss people off?
Take a look at a online street map of Japan and scroll around for a minute. You will see several swastikas, but they don't stand for Nazi party meeting houses... it denotes Buddhist temples.
Also have a peek here:
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/151.html
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_map_symbols
Sure, historically, there may have been more prevalence of the right leaning swastika in Asian culture, but the Nazis took the symbol and made it their own. I'm willing to bet that any right-leaning swastika in a Buddhist temple is pre-WW2.
Regarding the Confederate flag honoring soldiers who fought in the Civil war, those soldiers fought for one reason, and one reason alone. To defend the legality of slavery. To me that's not something to be honored. It's something to be ashamed of. It's like the Japanese going to their war shrines. You do not honor heroism when that heroism was done in the name of hatred. To do so perpetuates that hatred.
Every country on the face of the planet has fought wars that were not worth of respect at some time in their history. If we choose to live in the past, then no country would allow anyone to honor their war dead.
Honoring the fallen is one thing, but using a flag or symbol to perpetuate a state of understanding is another. There are people who hide behind flags in all nations shouting words of pride and hate; they should be dealt with. A boy whose grandfather died under his nation's flag who hopes his country's leader will visit his grandfather's grave should have that wish fulfilled, whatever country he lives in as long as the visit is conducted in an appropriate manner. If the fallen is never honored, and the incident hushed up, the lack of respect and/or understanding may perpetuate the very atmosphere that led to the conflict in the first place, or at least lead to other problems down the road.
The appropriate manner also is different from culture to culture and religion to religion and we must understand that there are different strokes for different folks, which is not always that easy to swallow.
I have never seen a right-bent swastika in Asia. They all lean to the left. The Nazi Swastika leans to the right.
This is a decorative Hindu swastika:
Here's one from Amiens Cathedral, which was built in France almost 800 years ago:
A samurai used this as his symbol back in the 1600's:
There are many more examples of right-facing swastikas in India and other parts of greater Asia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
This is a decorative Hindu swastika:
IMG
Here's one from Amiens Cathedral, which was built in France almost 800 years ago:
IMG
A samurai used this as his symbol back in the 1600's:
IMG
There are many more examples of right-facing swastikas in India and other parts of greater Asia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
I know, I know, and I acknowledged that right leaning swastikas exist. I've never been to India, so I don't know if the Hindu symbol is common. But in Hong Kong, Taiwan, throughout China, in Thailand, Philippines, I haven't seen a right leaning swastika that didn't pre-date WW2. That's not saying that they don't exist. It's just that out of every 100 swastikas you see in greater China, I bet one or two are right facing.
Not all soldiers who fall in battle are actually fighting for the cause of that battle but rather because the state in which they lived required them to fight or face punishment which sometimes included death. To make them and their families suffer for eternity is itself an immoral act possibly worse than any acts they themselves may have committed.
Every country on the face of the planet has fought wars that were not worth of respect at some time in their history. If we choose to live in the past, then no country would allow anyone to honor their war dead.
Honoring the fallen is one thing, but using a flag or symbol to perpetuate a state of understanding is another. There are people who hide behind flags in all nations shouting words of pride and hate; they should be dealt with. A boy whose grandfather died under his nation's flag who hopes his country's leader will visit his grandfather's grave should have that wish fulfilled, whatever country he lives in as long as the visit is conducted in an appropriate manner. If the fallen is never honored, and the incident hushed up, the lack of respect and/or understanding may perpetuate the very atmosphere that led to the conflict in the first place, or at least lead to other problems down the road.
The appropriate manner also is different from culture to culture and religion to religion and we must understand that there are different strokes for different folks, which is not always that easy to swallow.
So if your grandfather or great grandfather fought for the Nazis in WW2, would you display the Nazi flag?
It's alright for you to be proud that he was a brave soldier. But because of what the nazis stood for, you should be relegated to keeping your feelings to yourself.
This thread is some kind of freaky perennial that keeps coming back from the grave every one or two years because a random indignant Southerner caught wind of some damn computer boys dissing the confederate flag.
What, are they parcelling out the internet a little bit at a time down there, these days? Do the loyal bearers of Confederate Dignity have the slowest RSS feeds ever conceived?
Take a look at a online street map of Japan and scroll around for a minute. You will see several swastikas, but they don't stand for Nazi party meeting houses... it denotes Buddhist temples.
Also have a peek here:
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/151.html
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_map_symbols
that's fantastic. however, it's a completely different situation, and you know it. the confederate flag did not ever mean anything completely and utterly different (like your example). it has always stood for one thing, and one thing only.
the swastika is an interesting example though, of taking an already widely used symbol and completely associating it with a distinct and definitive meaning. as has already been said the swastika was around long before the nazis. but now when you see that symbol you only think one thing. as for the confederate flag, is there honestly anything other the confederacy that it could represent? yeah yeah, southern pride and heritage and other crap, etc...but that is so full of ignorance that it is not worth arguing against. oh well...
This thread ran for a while, got dropped for 6 months, revived for a few posts, got dropped for two and a half years, got resuscitated by a hopped up nut job we've never heard from before or since, got dropped for another year, and has now been once again dragged from the grave by "Alabama Grandma", whose one and only post figures to be her last.
We are now over four years into this thing, and apparently the powerless play thing any cranky Southerner with way too much time on their hands.
I demand an accounting of this weirdness before any more damn flag talk.
Oh no you don't. You don't get to just rattle on like everything was all perfectly fine.
This thread ran for a while, got dropped for 6 months, revived for a few posts, got dropped for two and a half years, got resuscitated by a hopped up nut job we've never heard from before or since, got dropped for another year, and has now been once again dragged from the grave by "Alabama Grandma", whose one and only post figures to be her last.
We are now over four years into this thing, and apparently the powerless play thing any cranky Southerner with way too much time on their hands.
I demand an accounting of this weirdness before any more damn flag talk.
They're looking for a fight and it shows up on a Google search.
The north didn't leave southern whites much left to hang on to - they are still economically disadvantaged (and have been ever since the civil war), oppressed (there is significant bias in society against southern people, particularly ones with accents), and have been crushed. What else do they have left to hang on to besides the battle flag of the confederacy?
I think that as the south becomes richer and more educated, this flag thing will become less of an issue - but in the mean time I think some of you all need to get a bit of a clue, and look at the damage done by the north.
I wonder what the things were you didn't like in Paris...
Smokers everywhere, dog shit everywhere. If you sit by yourself in an empty restaurant, in the middle of the "non smoking section", some asshole French smoker will come sit at the next table and blow smoke at you, and they you will step in dog shit on the way out of the place. Happens every time.
The damage to the southern states due to the civil war was immense, they are only just now recovering from the civil war - just like black people are still recovering from slavery. It is all very well and good for rich northerners to look down on the southerners, when the northern states caused the southern misery.
The north didn't leave southern whites much left to hang on to - they are still economically disadvantaged (and have been ever since the civil war), oppressed (there is significant bias in society against southern people, particularly ones with accents), and have been crushed. What else do they have left to hang on to besides the battle flag of the confederacy?
I think that as the south becomes richer and more educated, this flag thing will become less of an issue - but in the mean time I think some of you all need to get a bit of a clue, and look at the damage done by the north.
Smokers everywhere, dog shit everywhere. If you sit by yourself in an empty restaurant, in the middle of the "non smoking section", some asshole French smoker will come sit at the next table and blow smoke at you, and they you will step in dog shit on the way out of the place. Happens every time.
And the damage done to the Nazis in WWII was immense. Japanese too.
But they got over it already, and they've had less than half the time. And it's not the North's fault the Southerners suffered! That's like saying it's the Allies' fault the Germans suffered!
The Civil war was started because the Southern States didn't want to end slavery, so they decided to break the law of the United States of America and secede from the Union. They made their bed. Now they've been laying in it for nearly 150 years, feeling sorry for their loss. If people in the North don't respect them it's because they cling to things like the Confederate flag, which represents slavery, like it or not. The South is the home of the KKK, Nascar and Southern Evangelism, which is currently the most hatred spreading movement in the Nation. If Southerners want acceptance they need to let go of the things that made them assholes in the past, not embrace them.
But they got over it already, and they've had less than half the time. And it's not the North's fault the Southerners suffered! That's like saying it's the Allies' fault the Germans suffered!
Actually the parallel is there, but it is with WWI. Germany suffered after WWI, mainly due to the French being dicks about the whole thing. It is the Allies (mainly French) fault that Germany suffered so much after WWI, and it was that suffering that let Hitler get to power and caused WWII.
Also, the south did not have the manufacturing base that Germany had to help them recover. Also, Germany recovered because the US paid for their recovery.
One might add a couple of other points. The political flag of the Confederacy?the so-called "Stars and Bars"?is one thing. The battle flag of the Confederate army; the most militant symbolic form that secession and slavery ever took, is quite another. Under this fiery cross of St. Andrew, the state of Pennsylvania was invaded and free Americans were rounded up and re-enslaved. Under this same cross, it was announced that any Union officer commanding freed-slave soldiers, or any of his men, would be executed if captured. (In other words, war crimes were boasted of in advance.) The 13 stars of the same flag include stars for two states?Kentucky and Missouri?that never did secede, and they thus express a clear ambition to conquer free and independent states. And this is the symbol that Huckabee, seeking to ingratiate himself with the lowest element and lowest common denominator, calls "your flag." You might as well do a cross-burning and have done with it, and we all know how the networks would react if some ignorant kids did that.
Fly the Apple flag of Peace !!!!!