*I* was uncomfortable with eating meat. *I* had a problem with it. *I* had problems with animal cruelty. *I* made a decision. Never once did I say you were wrong or immoral or an idiot for eating meat, unlike many here who make fun of vegetarians for simply being vegetarian.
I, I, I, it's all about you, isn't it? No wonder Paul Atreides killed you!
Great, so what about fish, other seafood, poultry, pork, etc? Show me a scientific study that directly correlates the consumption of "meat" to increased chances of getting cancer and heart disease...other than something I'd find sponsored by PETA.
My father-in-law is in the Aquaculture industry and has been telling me for years how bad fish is to eat today. High mercury and PCB levels are rampant in the production of most of the fish people eat. It is becoming increasingly harder for fish producers to make any money, their profits are razor thin. So what is the first thing they cut back on? The feeds they use for the fish. If you actually looked this stuff up you'd find plenty of articles about the mercury and pcb levels in fish.
My father-in-law is in the Aquaculture industry and has been telling me for years how bad fish is to eat today. High mercury and PCB levels are rampant in the production of most of the fish people eat. It is becoming increasingly harder for fish producers to make any money, their profits are razor thin. So what is the first thing they cut back on? The feeds they use for the fish. If you actually looked this stuff up you'd find plenty of articles about the mercury and pcb levels in fish.
You do realize that fish farming is about as healthy as factory farmed beef, chicken, or pork, right?
Wild capture is the only way to go with fish. There are alternatives.
As alcimedes said, large populated river basin: probably bad, backwoods mountain stream in Montana: probably fine.
Context is important.
As an amusing aside, a couple years ago a group of NW ichthyologists were studying what trace chemicals in various waterways salmon were homing in on to find their way back to the spawning grounds. (Idea being that if they could find the right mix for each waterway, they could place small drips of the stuff at the top of fish ladders to help them get upstream over hydroelectric dams... it'd help them find the ladder in the first place. Clever.)
One of the main sensed chemicals in Puget Sound?
Caffeine.
The NPR interviewer was like: "Oh, yeah, I can see that, with everyone pouring out those huge lattes they can't drink."
"What are you talking about?"
"Well, those huge lattes, they pour them out, then they get washed into the..."
"Uh, no."
"You can actually drink all that?" (presumably pointing at latte in hand of researcher)
"*laugh* this is my third one today!"
"No way!"
"Yeah!"
"Then how does it get into the water??"
"Well, the excess just passes through the body."
"Huh?"
"The body metabolizes what it can, and the rest just goes through."
"What? I dont' get it."
"You pee it out."
"WHAT? NO!"
"Uh, yeah."
"Then how does it get into the water?? I thought that sewage was cleaned before it was sent downstream!"
"Um, only for solids, some organisms... not chemicals."
"... really?"
"Yeah, what, you thought it was *clean* coming out of the waste treatment plant?"
"Well, *yeah*."
Remember boys and girls, when you take an antibiotic, you're contributing to superbugs in the environment as well as your own flesh and blood.
The same way anything else can become cliché? ... like the evil dark meat vs. green vegetable of good argument altogether.
We should bookmark this page and see who's alive in 50, 70, 90 (?) years to provide an anecdote.
You mean by having enough truth to be discussed? Like all republicans being beligerant, blow hard demogagues and all democrats being whiney liberals? Ok, I can see that then...
I'll be around in 90 years. I'll see you then. Of course I'll only be a head in a jar on robotic legs by then... just like Nixon.
For the record, nutritionists agree that there it's not a question of meat or vegetables, it's a question of a balanced diet.
Humans are like bears : omnivorous. What is important is to avoid any excess, and eat various food. So eating only eat is bad for us, and eating only vegetables is bad also.
The key word here is balanced.
Balanced as far as nutrients and protiens go. Not as far as meat and vegetables. As long as you get the proper nutrients and enough protien you are fine.
Most B12 vitamin supplements come from animal products, however, I guess I hadn't heard about making up for B12 deficiencies by eating specialized yeast products. Yeast isn't a vegetable, or a plant of any kind... but it's not quite an animal either.
So, yes, I guess if you go out of your way to assemble a dietary regime that has nothing to do with any natural diet that pre-agricultural humans would have been adapted for, you might manage to get by with nothing that every came from an animal.
Still doesn't eliminate the other ways humans cause animals to die just by existing and competing for resources.
You don't need animal based products to get b12.
Tempeh, miso, sea vegetables (sea weeds etc), also sauerkraut and other (preferably organic, they have better vitamin and mineral content) made on the same method (that sauerkraut is made; i would not use the world pickled as it's different) contain enough b12, more than what the RDA is.
So, if being vegetarian is french fries, onions and cucumbers (and no other vegetables), nope there isn't enough b12, but if you know where to get your vitamins etc, no worry.
Comments
different strokes i guess.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-126370c.html
Originally posted by FaydRautha
*I* was uncomfortable with eating meat. *I* had a problem with it. *I* had problems with animal cruelty. *I* made a decision. Never once did I say you were wrong or immoral or an idiot for eating meat, unlike many here who make fun of vegetarians for simply being vegetarian.
I, I, I, it's all about you, isn't it? No wonder Paul Atreides killed you!
Originally posted by giant
That's spot-on exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
Me too now, but my advice is don't avoid Africa simply because you're afraid of the meat.
Originally posted by Eugene
Great, so what about fish, other seafood, poultry, pork, etc? Show me a scientific study that directly correlates the consumption of "meat" to increased chances of getting cancer and heart disease...other than something I'd find sponsored by PETA.
Chicken
My father-in-law is in the Aquaculture industry and has been telling me for years how bad fish is to eat today. High mercury and PCB levels are rampant in the production of most of the fish people eat. It is becoming increasingly harder for fish producers to make any money, their profits are razor thin. So what is the first thing they cut back on? The feeds they use for the fish. If you actually looked this stuff up you'd find plenty of articles about the mercury and pcb levels in fish.
Here's another study:Teen Vegetarians Healthier Than Meat-Eaters -Study
Originally posted by giant
Clearly, both of you just want to argue without actually spending any time learning about it.
DING DING DING DING DING!!!! At least some people around here get it.
Originally posted by Willoughby
Chicken
My father-in-law is in the Aquaculture industry and has been telling me for years how bad fish is to eat today. High mercury and PCB levels are rampant in the production of most of the fish people eat. It is becoming increasingly harder for fish producers to make any money, their profits are razor thin. So what is the first thing they cut back on? The feeds they use for the fish. If you actually looked this stuff up you'd find plenty of articles about the mercury and pcb levels in fish.
You do realize that fish farming is about as healthy as factory farmed beef, chicken, or pork, right?
Wild capture is the only way to go with fish. There are alternatives.
Originally posted by Kickaha
You do realize that fish farming is about as healthy as factory farmed beef, chicken, or pork, right?
Wild capture is the only way to go with fish. There are alternatives.
Wild capture doesn't help, the mercury levels are still high and so are the pollution levels.
wild capture from a mountain stream in the backwoods of Montana? probably fine.
Originally posted by alcimedes
wild capture from the mississippi river, probably bad.
wild capture from a mountain stream in the backwoods of Montana? probably fine.
ahem
Originally posted by Willoughby
ahem
Where does the water used to grow farmcrops come from?
Originally posted by Willoughby
ahem
Um, that's from waste water runoff.
As alcimedes said, large populated river basin: probably bad, backwoods mountain stream in Montana: probably fine.
Context is important.
As an amusing aside, a couple years ago a group of NW ichthyologists were studying what trace chemicals in various waterways salmon were homing in on to find their way back to the spawning grounds. (Idea being that if they could find the right mix for each waterway, they could place small drips of the stuff at the top of fish ladders to help them get upstream over hydroelectric dams... it'd help them find the ladder in the first place. Clever.)
One of the main sensed chemicals in Puget Sound?
Caffeine.
The NPR interviewer was like: "Oh, yeah, I can see that, with everyone pouring out those huge lattes they can't drink."
"What are you talking about?"
"Well, those huge lattes, they pour them out, then they get washed into the..."
"Uh, no."
"You can actually drink all that?" (presumably pointing at latte in hand of researcher)
"*laugh* this is my third one today!"
"No way!"
"Yeah!"
"Then how does it get into the water??"
"Well, the excess just passes through the body."
"Huh?"
"The body metabolizes what it can, and the rest just goes through."
"What? I dont' get it."
"You pee it out."
"WHAT? NO!"
"Uh, yeah."
"Then how does it get into the water?? I thought that sewage was cleaned before it was sent downstream!"
"Um, only for solids, some organisms... not chemicals."
"... really?"
"Yeah, what, you thought it was *clean* coming out of the waste treatment plant?"
"Well, *yeah*."
Remember boys and girls, when you take an antibiotic, you're contributing to superbugs in the environment as well as your own flesh and blood.
Sleep well!
Originally posted by Eugene
The same way anything else can become cliché? ... like the evil dark meat vs. green vegetable of good argument altogether.
We should bookmark this page and see who's alive in 50, 70, 90 (?) years to provide an anecdote.
You mean by having enough truth to be discussed? Like all republicans being beligerant, blow hard demogagues and all democrats being whiney liberals? Ok, I can see that then...
I'll be around in 90 years. I'll see you then. Of course I'll only be a head in a jar on robotic legs by then... just like Nixon.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
For the record, nutritionists agree that there it's not a question of meat or vegetables, it's a question of a balanced diet.
Humans are like bears : omnivorous. What is important is to avoid any excess, and eat various food. So eating only eat is bad for us, and eating only vegetables is bad also.
The key word here is balanced.
Balanced as far as nutrients and protiens go. Not as far as meat and vegetables. As long as you get the proper nutrients and enough protien you are fine.
Originally posted by Outsider
I, I, I, it's all about you, isn't it? No wonder Paul Atreides killed you!
Originally posted by shetline
Here's a link to the kind of thing I had in mind...
Vitamin B12 in the Vegan Diet
Most B12 vitamin supplements come from animal products, however, I guess I hadn't heard about making up for B12 deficiencies by eating specialized yeast products. Yeast isn't a vegetable, or a plant of any kind... but it's not quite an animal either.
So, yes, I guess if you go out of your way to assemble a dietary regime that has nothing to do with any natural diet that pre-agricultural humans would have been adapted for, you might manage to get by with nothing that every came from an animal.
Still doesn't eliminate the other ways humans cause animals to die just by existing and competing for resources.
You don't need animal based products to get b12.
Tempeh, miso, sea vegetables (sea weeds etc), also sauerkraut and other (preferably organic, they have better vitamin and mineral content) made on the same method (that sauerkraut is made; i would not use the world pickled as it's different) contain enough b12, more than what the RDA is.
So, if being vegetarian is french fries, onions and cucumbers (and no other vegetables), nope there isn't enough b12, but if you know where to get your vitamins etc, no worry.