I think we didn't make the Rose Bowl due to our performance, but at the same time pandering for votes might have helped us. Either way, I'm glad we didn't resort to that, although I don't think doing so is all that bad. Its better to ask for votes than to run up the score. And these two actions are far better than attacking players and the like.
So it is better to not ask for votes then later demand they open up a system that has never been opened and that you didn't call out earlier? I'm not saying Tedford is wrong for saying the coaches poll should be open (I don't necessarily think it should), but let's not act like he is King Class of Classistan.
Look, I know you are trying to lick your wounds here, but you are going to have to realize that when you say shit like "resort to" you are dogging my coach for doing something perfectly reasonable. Find a way to console yourself without attacking someone else, it's how adults work. If you are not carefu you could end up like?
applenut:
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go get some weight loss program started you fat piece of shit.
Keep it up, you're looking better and better each time!
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and how about that coach voting UT #2 in the nation?
Where's your support for that?
What the hell are you talking about?
I think putting Texas anywhere but #4 or #5 is stupid.
I think putting Cal anywhere but #4 or #5 is stupid.
I do not support putting either team in a spot other than #4 or #5.
Choosing between them at #4 and #5 is a matter of personal preference. Both 1 loss teams with their only losses coming to the top 2 teams in the nation who will be playing each other for the national championship. One can bicker about who is #4 and #5, but no one is unreasonable for going either way.
And the way it worked out, all it took was a single voter in either the AP or Coaches poll to put #4-Tex/#5-Cal to put Texas in the Rose Bowl. One single voter.
Eugene:
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Cal didn't make the Rose Bowl because the Pac 10 isn't the Big 12.
If by that you mean the BigXII brings with it a more difficult schedule then you are probably right.
If you are meaning to imply some secretive conspiracy then? I laugh.
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And here I thought the Rose Bowl was traditionally Big 10 vs Pac 10.
Traditionally the Rose Bowl is Big 10 champion vs. Pac 10 champion, not just Big 10 v. Pac 10.
And if you really thought that was still how it worked you haven't been paying very close attention since 1998 when the BCS started. 6 years is a long time.
Miami played Nebraska in the Rose Bowl for a national championship a couple of years ago.
If by that you mean the BigXII brings with it a more difficult schedule then you are probably right.
If you are meaning to imply some secretive conspiracy then? I laugh.
Conspiracy? It's no conspiracy that the Pac 10 gets no respect from the NCAA in football or basketball.
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Traditionally the Rose Bowl is Big 10 champion vs. Pac 10 champion, not just Big 10 v. Pac 10.
And considering UTexas was neither a conference champion or in the Pac 10, then uh...
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And if you really thought that was still how it worked you haven't been paying very close attention since 1998 when the BCS started. 6 years is a long time.
Nope, but since there is a human component to the BCS, the might have considered giving Cal the nod, for tradition's sake.
Originally posted by Eugene Nope, but since there is a human component to the BCS, the might have considered giving Cal the nod, for tradition's sake.
You are asserting that the voters should have voted not based on who they thought was the best football team but instead on potential bowl-tradition implications?
Should we drop all pretense of a merit-based system and just appeal straight to local ego?
If you want to pull the Rose out of the BCS system and keep it Pac-10 champion v. Big-10 champion that's fine, just don't come crying when those two conferences never get another national championship as the rest of the NCAA moves on and finds a better system.
The Rose Bowl abandoned its Pac-10/Big-10 tradition in 1998 when the powers that be decided to enter the BCS system. That is not Oklahoma's fault, it's not Miami's fault, it's not Nebraska's fault and it is not Texas' fault. It is the Pac-10's fault.
Blame the Pac-10 head office, not Texas.
Blame the Pac-10 head office, not AP/Coach voters.
Meanwhile the rest of the country moves on and enjoys the upcoming bowl season, which looks great. And the Rose Bowl sells out quickly and will probably draw the second largest TV audience behind the national championship game.
I realize missing out on a BCS bowl while being so close hurts. But Cal fans (and anyone else thinking there should be a special exception for their team) need to realize that their provincial attitudes are what keeps this stupid-ass system in place. The more Pac-10 fans cry their eyes out about a BigXII team playing in the Rose Bowl the more difficult it will be to get to a playoff system. Those who make those decisions will see the river of tears as an indication that we fans actually like this flawed system as long as it maintains outmoded traditions.
But here's what you do: get a harder schedule. You have a weak Pac-10 to make up for. Sacramento State in 2005 is not going to help.
This is also my gripe with Utah (Cal's schedule was a lot tougher than Utah's, of course). If you are not going to schedule big boy teams for your season you should not play for the big boy trophies. I don't care if Utah won all its games by 95 points, their schdule was a joke and Cal deserved a slot more than them.
So it is better to not ask for votes then later demand they open up a system that has never been opened and that you didn't call out earlier? I'm not saying Tedford is wrong for saying the coaches poll should be open (I don't necessarily think it should), but let's not act like he is King Class of Classistan.
Look, I know you are trying to lick your wounds here, but you are going to have to realize that when you say shit like "resort to" you are dogging my coach for doing something perfectly reasonable. Find a way to console yourself without attacking someone else, it's how adults work. If you are not carefu you could end up like?
The thing is, I think it is unreasonable and that's why I'll dog him for it. However, I recognize that not everyone thinks this way. And in the end, I'd rather a coach ask for votes than ask his players to injure the other team or other such behaviors.
Perhaps unreasonable is incorrect. Inappropriate is a better word. If you thought it was inappropriate too, you would think less of your coach. The behavior isn't unreasonable though, and for some coaches I'd even say it'd be expected.
But then again, what other coaches went on TV in their post-game press conference and asked for votes?
I'm sure had your school been snubbed you would have been arguing similar to us. Although, maybe not since even you admit that Texas is an inferior team. There is a thing such as sore losers but there's also sore winners. We may have been snubbed out of the Rose Bowl but it does justice to our success that there is such outrage about it and that most people seem to agree we should be there instead of Texas. While you're team may have made it, most people feel you shouldn't be there and don't deserve it as much as a team that didn't make it. If I were you I wouldn't be too proud of that.
Personally, I think the Rose Bowl should have been Cal vs. Texas. It would have put this crap to rest. and it would have made sense. But apparently NCAA football has no interest in making sense. For the BCS to work, you must remove automatic bids for conferenc champions.
Yes, I think Cal should have been in the Rose Bowl based on both merit AND tradition. Hell, that's the only reason why Michigan is even in. Or are you saying the BCS doesn't favor certain teams and conferences (with guaranteed bowl spots and what else)?
But then again, what other coaches went on TV in their post-game press conference and asked for votes?
Mark Mangino cried "BCS conspiracy!" when refs called a pass interference penalty on his WR (it was an obvious call, by the way).
3 different coaches criticized the BCS on ABC during the UT/A&M game live on national television.
Last year Pete Carroll was not at all secretive about how unfair he thought the system was to his players by keeping him out of the national championship game.
You are acting like this is unprecedented behavior and it is not. For anyone who has paid attention to football coaches complaining about the system and the polls is nothing new.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill and all because you are bitter about your team being snubbed. Yet again, it was not the voters that put Cal in the Holiday Bowl, it was the computers. And what small role the voters played Mack Brown had absolutely nothing at all to do with it.
applenut:
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I'm sure had your school been snubbed you would have been arguing similar to us.
In a similar situation I wouldn't go after an opponent's coach like this, no way in hell.
1) The voters didn't decide who went to the Rose, the computers did.
2) There is absolutely ZERO evidence of Mack's words having any effect on any of the voters. The next poll after he said it dropped Texas after a big win over a rival.
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Although, maybe not since even you admit that Texas is an inferior team.
To Oklahoma, definitely. That's about it. I wouldn't write us off against any other team in the nation.
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There is a thing such as sore losers but there's also sore winners. We may have been snubbed out of the Rose Bowl but it does justice to our success that there is such outrage about it and that most people seem to agree we should be there instead of Texas. While you're team may have made it, most people feel you shouldn't be there and don't deserve it as much as a team that didn't make it. If I were you I wouldn't be too proud of that.
Most people? Really? Did you take a survey?
Even if I did believe your fabricated "facts" I wouldn't really care. We had a tougher schedule. Our only loss was also to an undefeated power and we played in a much tougher conference. Those are facts.
Eugene:
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Hell, that's the only reason why Michigan is even in. Or are you saying the BCS doesn't favor certain teams and conferences (with guaranteed bowl spots and what else)?
The only rule-bound favoritism in the BCS system is to Notre Dame (who I loathe).
As long as a non-BCS conference team doesn't finish top 6 and a BCS conference non-champion doesn't finish top 4 the bowls are free to choose between any available Top 12 squad.
That was the agreement to make sure the bowls could maintain some semblance of tradition.
If there must be a BCS system (and no playoff) I think it should be conference champions (minus the Big East) + the highest BCS ranked teams. No option of picking and choosing amongst the bowls. And yes, this is a bad idea from a UT fan's perspective because we are very attractive to bowls because of our huge fanbase (we travel well and we spend lots of money); a #10 Texas would get the nod for 3 of the 4 BCS bowls over a #9 Utah or Pittsburgh if the bowls had their druthers.
Mark Mangino cried "BCS conspiracy!" when refs called a pass interference penalty on his WR (it was an obvious call, by the way).
3 different coaches criticized the BCS on ABC during the UT/A&M game live on national television.
Last year Pete Carroll was not at all secretive about how unfair he thought the system was to his players by keeping him out of the national championship game.
You are acting like this is unprecedented behavior and it is not. For anyone who has paid attention to football coaches complaining about the system and the polls is nothing new.
Unfortunately, your examples are coaches complaining about the BCS not asking for votes. Asking for votes is the issue I have problems with.
1) The voters didn't decide who went to the Rose, the computers did.
Additionally, I don't believe our computer rankings dropped that much between the previous week and the final vote. (I heard it even went up slightly, but I can't confirm that without looking at the #s.)
What did change was our coaches poll ranking. Overall we remained at #4, but there was enough attrition (including the #8 votes) to drop us down enough in the combined BCS rankings. And you're a liar if you think the coaches who put in the #8 votes didn't know exactly what they were doing.
Unfortunately, your examples are coaches complaining about the BCS not asking for votes. Asking for votes is the issue I have problems with.
Why on earth is whining about the BCS acceptable but asking for votes is not? Can you provide some logic behind that besides "I wanted Cal to get into the Rose Bowl"?
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Additionally, I don't believe our computer rankings dropped that much between the previous week and the final vote. (I heard it even went up slightly, but I can't confirm that without looking at the #s.)
The computer rankings stayed exactly the same from Week 7 to Week 8.
Cal - .800
Texas - .880
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What did change was our coaches poll ranking. Overall we remained at #4, but there was enough attrition (including the #8 votes) to drop us down enough in the combined BCS rankings. And you're a liar if you think the coaches who put in the #8 votes didn't know exactly what they were doing.
Just like the 8 coaches who put Texas at #7 or #8?
I know you want it to be the combined power of many dark forces that cost Cal the bid, but it wasn't.
As I have already explained. Even if every single voter, both AP and Coach put Cal #4 and Texas #4 the BCS score would have been tied.
In that scenario it would only take one voter from either the AP or the Coaches poll to put Texas #4 Cal #5 to put UT into the Rose. That's all it took, and why? Because our schedule was more difficult and the computers had that factored in.
Find a way to deal with your loss without bashing Texas and we will not have a problem. Until then, you are rehashing bullshit conspiracy theories. Yes, coaches voted with regional motives, but that worked against Texas more than it did Cal.
Why on earth is whining about the BCS acceptable but asking for votes is not? Can you provide some logic behind that besides "I wanted Cal to get into the Rose Bowl"?
First off, Tedford is hardly complaining about the BCS system. He's one who takes the stance of "its the system we have so might as well accept it." Leading up to and after the game he was very level headed about this.
However, complaining about a broken system and how it should be changed is very different than asking others to vote for your team. The system impacts everyone but asking for votes is selfish. Last year, USC had every right to bitch about the system.
I might add that if the situation was flipped between Texas and Cal, Tedford would not have asked for votes during the press conference. Plain and simple.
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Originally posted by groverat
Find a way to deal with your loss without bashing Texas and we will not have a problem. Until then, you are rehashing bullshit conspiracy theories. Yes, coaches voted with regional motives, but that worked against Texas more than it did Cal.
Here's the thing, I've come to terms with the bowl situation and am not bashing Texas. Texas' behavior speaks for itself. What's done is done. But that doesn't mean we can't improve the system for next year, and for everyone.
If it was the players passionately asking for votes and not the coach, I'd be far more comfortable. They're just kids after all and I wouldn't hold the to the same standards that I expect for the coach or the staff.
Also it depends on the context. If offhand the coach claimed that the team was rated poorly and presented a good case it would be one thing, but to go on national TV and just say vote for us 'cuz we done good is entirely inappropriate.
And what's next, a major media blitz during Monday night football to encourage votes for you school? Hell, start sending highlight reels and cookies to the other coaches: "Please vote for us. If you do, next year we'll go easier on you." This stuff should never happen and unfortunately we've started down this road.
Oh, and I'm comfortable with our bowl position. Disappointed, yes but I've come to terms with it.
That doesn't mean I can't remain steadfast when saying that asking for votes is inappropriate.
Texas won the rose bowl berth but in doing so they acted below themselves. Did it actually impact the rankings, I doubt we'll ever know, but nobody should resort to asking for votes on TV.
The system impacts everyone but asking for votes is selfish. Last year, USC had every right to bitch about the system.
Winning football games is also selfish. Maybe Texas should organize a tie with every team they play next year so no one gets their feelings hurt.
Selfish...
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I might add that if the situation was flipped between Texas and Cal, Tedford would not have asked for votes during the press conference. Plain and simple.
Press conference? No.
In the on-the-field interview directly after the game. You know, like the thing where the reporter goes and talks to the coach on the field, the one where Lloyd Carr went apeshit at halftime of the UM/OSU game last year.
Are you sure you saw Mack ask for votes, after all?
Furthermore, I could just as easily say that Mack Brown wouldn't wait until it was too late to make a case for his team (like Tedford has).
Mack's plea for votes was meaningless except to provide Cal fans something to rub themselves with to ease the pain.
UT lost votes after the incident. Read that again: UT lost votes afterwards.
One more time, let's see if it sinks in this time: UT lost votes afterwards.
So I'll ask a question ans hope you answer it:
Xool, did Mack Brown's plea for votes have any impact on the poll situation?
Please try and answer this question. And when you finally allow yourself to answer "no" please explain, in some detail, why Cal fans like yourself choose to focus on it. This is your opportunity to flex that great UC-B education and do some self-analysis.
Mack stood up for his team knowing he was going to take a shitload of heat for it. His words didn't mean anything at the end of the day but it is indicative of how much he cares about his players (and why sure-fire Top 10 superstars like Derrick Johnson, Roy/Ricky/Mike Williams and Leonard Davis stay for their senior seasons).
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Here's the thing, I've come to terms with the bowl situation and am not bashing Texas. Texas' behavior speaks for itself.
That is such a load of shit. You say you aren't bashing Texas and the next sentence is bashing Texas. Do you think I am too stupid to read English?
"Look, Xool, I'm not insulting you here, but you're a total cocksucker."
You act like Mack's perfectly harmless comments are objectively wrong. They are not, that is your heavily biased opinion as a bitter Cal fan.
You act like Mack's perfectly harmless comments are objectively wrong. They are not, that is your heavily biased opinion as a bitter Cal fan.
Wrong. And this is my point, I find the comments objectively wrong. I don't think everyone thinks the same. Obviously there are die hard Cal fans who will attack Texas for any and every reason, but I am not one of them.
I find what Mackey did was tasteless. period. Had some other coach done it I'd be on their case just as hard, although I doubt the discussion in here would be as heated.
Before I answer the next question about the impact of Mackey's words, I want to quote myself in an earlier post:
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Originally posted by Xool
I think we didn't make the Rose Bowl due to our performance
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Originally posted by groverat
Did Mack Brown's plea for votes have any impact on the poll situation?
I don't believe that it should have, but it probably had a slight impact. Not because it changed people's votes but because it got more coaches to focus on the situation and watch Cal's last game. Either way, the final standings and outcome rely squarely on the performance of our team. If we had a better closing game we probably would not have dropped as much in the polls.
Don't get me wrong. Watching the game is good. Every coach should watch every team they're ranking, but that's impossible.
Additionally, while I would hope most coaches wouldn't change their vote just because some other coach asked him to, I would expect that there are a few out there who might. Either way, those votes should be so few that it shouldn't make an impact.
So again, Cal dropped because we didn't play our best game. Thus lower rankings and no Rose Bowl. Fault: Cal. Am I disappointed? Yes. Jealous? Sure. Looking forward to next year? You bet!
I apologize for the many zealot Cal fans. They make us look bad just like crazed mac zealots.
However, two points remain:
* The BCS is screwed up. Those weird votes logically shouldn't have been cast. Perhaps the rationale for a coaches vote should be recorded to prevent dubious behavior. Perhaps a double-blind peer review could help?
Either way, the votes involved are not responsible for keeping Cal out. That is not why I am upset. I'm upset as this sketchy voting impacts all teams and the entire BCS system. I think it takes a good team to spearhead change. Like SC last year, I think we can help improve the system. They added human polls to the final rankings and we can add open or semi-open polls.
* Coach Mackey acted inappropriately when he asked for votes. This did not kill our bowl hopes, but is still not the right thing to do. Some may think otherwise and that's fine, but personally I don't believe this is appropriate behavior. A good question is how did Auburn act in the weeks prior to the final votes?
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Originally posted by groverat
Mack stood up for his team knowing he was going to take a shitload of heat for it
Why was he "going to take a shitload of heat for it"? Because I and many others think the behavior is inappropriate!
You can't even post without tripping over yourself. You just can't not take a swipe at him can you?
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* Coach Mackey acted inappropriately when he asked for votes. This did not kill our bowl hopes, but is still not the right thing to do. Some may think otherwise and that's fine, but personally I don't believe this is appropriate behavior. A good question is how did Auburn act in the weeks prior to the final votes?
"Mackey" again? Jesus Christ.
What is so funny about this whole thing is that Cal fans are acting like children even when they try to not act like children and then moralize about Mack Brown acting inappropriately.
JEFFY TEDDYFORDY AND THE CALIFORNIAY BEARSEYS!
Cal fans and players are the arbiters of "class" because they waited until after the BCS selection to act like a pack of screaming toddlers.
But you guys aren't really familiar with life at the top of the college football heap, so it isn't surprising to see you all flood in out of nowhere and act like you own the place. But it is still funny.
But you guys aren't really familiar with life at the top of the college football heap, so it isn't surprising to see you all flood in out of nowhere and act like you own the place. But it is still funny.
You aren't really familiar with life at the top of the academic heap and being able to see your feet so I'm not surprised you have shown such a lack of intelligence and poise in this thread. But it is still funny.
I actually thought Mackey was his name. I don't follow the Texas team that closely. I don't like what he did and I'm sorry I butchered his name.
I won't go back and edit my posts because I did indeed screw his name up. You'll note that in early posts I didn't refer to him by name and just said Texas, and that was for this very reason.
But my inability to spell or research his name does not fix his actions. Coach Mack's behavior was inappropriate.
You aren't really familiar with life at the top of the academic heap and being able to see your feet so I'm not surprised you have shown such a lack of intelligence and poise in this thread. But it is still funny.
it's even funnier coming from you.
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go get some weight loss program started you fat piece of shit.
real classy. besides, groovers not fat, he's just big-boned.
Comments
I think we didn't make the Rose Bowl due to our performance, but at the same time pandering for votes might have helped us. Either way, I'm glad we didn't resort to that, although I don't think doing so is all that bad. Its better to ask for votes than to run up the score. And these two actions are far better than attacking players and the like.
So it is better to not ask for votes then later demand they open up a system that has never been opened and that you didn't call out earlier? I'm not saying Tedford is wrong for saying the coaches poll should be open (I don't necessarily think it should), but let's not act like he is King Class of Classistan.
Look, I know you are trying to lick your wounds here, but you are going to have to realize that when you say shit like "resort to" you are dogging my coach for doing something perfectly reasonable. Find a way to console yourself without attacking someone else, it's how adults work. If you are not carefu you could end up like?
applenut:
go get some weight loss program started you fat piece of shit.
Keep it up, you're looking better and better each time!
and how about that coach voting UT #2 in the nation?
Where's your support for that?
What the hell are you talking about?
I think putting Texas anywhere but #4 or #5 is stupid.
I think putting Cal anywhere but #4 or #5 is stupid.
I do not support putting either team in a spot other than #4 or #5.
Choosing between them at #4 and #5 is a matter of personal preference. Both 1 loss teams with their only losses coming to the top 2 teams in the nation who will be playing each other for the national championship. One can bicker about who is #4 and #5, but no one is unreasonable for going either way.
And the way it worked out, all it took was a single voter in either the AP or Coaches poll to put #4-Tex/#5-Cal to put Texas in the Rose Bowl. One single voter.
Eugene:
Cal didn't make the Rose Bowl because the Pac 10 isn't the Big 12.
If by that you mean the BigXII brings with it a more difficult schedule then you are probably right.
If you are meaning to imply some secretive conspiracy then? I laugh.
And here I thought the Rose Bowl was traditionally Big 10 vs Pac 10.
Traditionally the Rose Bowl is Big 10 champion vs. Pac 10 champion, not just Big 10 v. Pac 10.
And if you really thought that was still how it worked you haven't been paying very close attention since 1998 when the BCS started. 6 years is a long time.
Miami played Nebraska in the Rose Bowl for a national championship a couple of years ago.
If by that you mean the BigXII brings with it a more difficult schedule then you are probably right.
If you are meaning to imply some secretive conspiracy then? I laugh.
Conspiracy? It's no conspiracy that the Pac 10 gets no respect from the NCAA in football or basketball.
Traditionally the Rose Bowl is Big 10 champion vs. Pac 10 champion, not just Big 10 v. Pac 10.
And considering UTexas was neither a conference champion or in the Pac 10, then uh...
And if you really thought that was still how it worked you haven't been paying very close attention since 1998 when the BCS started. 6 years is a long time.
Nope, but since there is a human component to the BCS, the might have considered giving Cal the nod, for tradition's sake.
Originally posted by Eugene Nope, but since there is a human component to the BCS, the might have considered giving Cal the nod, for tradition's sake.
You are asserting that the voters should have voted not based on who they thought was the best football team but instead on potential bowl-tradition implications?
Should we drop all pretense of a merit-based system and just appeal straight to local ego?
If you want to pull the Rose out of the BCS system and keep it Pac-10 champion v. Big-10 champion that's fine, just don't come crying when those two conferences never get another national championship as the rest of the NCAA moves on and finds a better system.
The Rose Bowl abandoned its Pac-10/Big-10 tradition in 1998 when the powers that be decided to enter the BCS system. That is not Oklahoma's fault, it's not Miami's fault, it's not Nebraska's fault and it is not Texas' fault. It is the Pac-10's fault.
Blame the Pac-10 head office, not Texas.
Blame the Pac-10 head office, not AP/Coach voters.
Meanwhile the rest of the country moves on and enjoys the upcoming bowl season, which looks great. And the Rose Bowl sells out quickly and will probably draw the second largest TV audience behind the national championship game.
I realize missing out on a BCS bowl while being so close hurts. But Cal fans (and anyone else thinking there should be a special exception for their team) need to realize that their provincial attitudes are what keeps this stupid-ass system in place. The more Pac-10 fans cry their eyes out about a BigXII team playing in the Rose Bowl the more difficult it will be to get to a playoff system. Those who make those decisions will see the river of tears as an indication that we fans actually like this flawed system as long as it maintains outmoded traditions.
But here's what you do: get a harder schedule. You have a weak Pac-10 to make up for. Sacramento State in 2005 is not going to help.
This is also my gripe with Utah (Cal's schedule was a lot tougher than Utah's, of course). If you are not going to schedule big boy teams for your season you should not play for the big boy trophies. I don't care if Utah won all its games by 95 points, their schdule was a joke and Cal deserved a slot more than them.
Originally posted by groverat
Xool:
So it is better to not ask for votes then later demand they open up a system that has never been opened and that you didn't call out earlier? I'm not saying Tedford is wrong for saying the coaches poll should be open (I don't necessarily think it should), but let's not act like he is King Class of Classistan.
Look, I know you are trying to lick your wounds here, but you are going to have to realize that when you say shit like "resort to" you are dogging my coach for doing something perfectly reasonable. Find a way to console yourself without attacking someone else, it's how adults work. If you are not carefu you could end up like?
The thing is, I think it is unreasonable and that's why I'll dog him for it. However, I recognize that not everyone thinks this way. And in the end, I'd rather a coach ask for votes than ask his players to injure the other team or other such behaviors.
Perhaps unreasonable is incorrect. Inappropriate is a better word. If you thought it was inappropriate too, you would think less of your coach. The behavior isn't unreasonable though, and for some coaches I'd even say it'd be expected.
But then again, what other coaches went on TV in their post-game press conference and asked for votes?
I'm sure had your school been snubbed you would have been arguing similar to us. Although, maybe not since even you admit that Texas is an inferior team. There is a thing such as sore losers but there's also sore winners. We may have been snubbed out of the Rose Bowl but it does justice to our success that there is such outrage about it and that most people seem to agree we should be there instead of Texas. While you're team may have made it, most people feel you shouldn't be there and don't deserve it as much as a team that didn't make it. If I were you I wouldn't be too proud of that.
Personally, I think the Rose Bowl should have been Cal vs. Texas. It would have put this crap to rest. and it would have made sense. But apparently NCAA football has no interest in making sense. For the BCS to work, you must remove automatic bids for conferenc champions.
Xool:
But then again, what other coaches went on TV in their post-game press conference and asked for votes?
Mark Mangino cried "BCS conspiracy!" when refs called a pass interference penalty on his WR (it was an obvious call, by the way).
3 different coaches criticized the BCS on ABC during the UT/A&M game live on national television.
Last year Pete Carroll was not at all secretive about how unfair he thought the system was to his players by keeping him out of the national championship game.
You are acting like this is unprecedented behavior and it is not. For anyone who has paid attention to football coaches complaining about the system and the polls is nothing new.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill and all because you are bitter about your team being snubbed. Yet again, it was not the voters that put Cal in the Holiday Bowl, it was the computers. And what small role the voters played Mack Brown had absolutely nothing at all to do with it.
applenut:
I'm sure had your school been snubbed you would have been arguing similar to us.
In a similar situation I wouldn't go after an opponent's coach like this, no way in hell.
1) The voters didn't decide who went to the Rose, the computers did.
2) There is absolutely ZERO evidence of Mack's words having any effect on any of the voters. The next poll after he said it dropped Texas after a big win over a rival.
Although, maybe not since even you admit that Texas is an inferior team.
To Oklahoma, definitely. That's about it. I wouldn't write us off against any other team in the nation.
There is a thing such as sore losers but there's also sore winners. We may have been snubbed out of the Rose Bowl but it does justice to our success that there is such outrage about it and that most people seem to agree we should be there instead of Texas. While you're team may have made it, most people feel you shouldn't be there and don't deserve it as much as a team that didn't make it. If I were you I wouldn't be too proud of that.
Most people? Really? Did you take a survey?
Even if I did believe your fabricated "facts" I wouldn't really care. We had a tougher schedule. Our only loss was also to an undefeated power and we played in a much tougher conference. Those are facts.
Eugene:
Hell, that's the only reason why Michigan is even in. Or are you saying the BCS doesn't favor certain teams and conferences (with guaranteed bowl spots and what else)?
The only rule-bound favoritism in the BCS system is to Notre Dame (who I loathe).
As long as a non-BCS conference team doesn't finish top 6 and a BCS conference non-champion doesn't finish top 4 the bowls are free to choose between any available Top 12 squad.
That was the agreement to make sure the bowls could maintain some semblance of tradition.
If there must be a BCS system (and no playoff) I think it should be conference champions (minus the Big East) + the highest BCS ranked teams. No option of picking and choosing amongst the bowls. And yes, this is a bad idea from a UT fan's perspective because we are very attractive to bowls because of our huge fanbase (we travel well and we spend lots of money); a #10 Texas would get the nod for 3 of the 4 BCS bowls over a #9 Utah or Pittsburgh if the bowls had their druthers.
Originally posted by groverat
God I love football.
Xool:
Mark Mangino cried "BCS conspiracy!" when refs called a pass interference penalty on his WR (it was an obvious call, by the way).
3 different coaches criticized the BCS on ABC during the UT/A&M game live on national television.
Last year Pete Carroll was not at all secretive about how unfair he thought the system was to his players by keeping him out of the national championship game.
You are acting like this is unprecedented behavior and it is not. For anyone who has paid attention to football coaches complaining about the system and the polls is nothing new.
Unfortunately, your examples are coaches complaining about the BCS not asking for votes. Asking for votes is the issue I have problems with.
Originally posted by groverat
1) The voters didn't decide who went to the Rose, the computers did.
Additionally, I don't believe our computer rankings dropped that much between the previous week and the final vote. (I heard it even went up slightly, but I can't confirm that without looking at the #s.)
What did change was our coaches poll ranking. Overall we remained at #4, but there was enough attrition (including the #8 votes) to drop us down enough in the combined BCS rankings. And you're a liar if you think the coaches who put in the #8 votes didn't know exactly what they were doing.
Unfortunately, your examples are coaches complaining about the BCS not asking for votes. Asking for votes is the issue I have problems with.
Why on earth is whining about the BCS acceptable but asking for votes is not? Can you provide some logic behind that besides "I wanted Cal to get into the Rose Bowl"?
Additionally, I don't believe our computer rankings dropped that much between the previous week and the final vote. (I heard it even went up slightly, but I can't confirm that without looking at the #s.)
The computer rankings stayed exactly the same from Week 7 to Week 8.
Cal - .800
Texas - .880
What did change was our coaches poll ranking. Overall we remained at #4, but there was enough attrition (including the #8 votes) to drop us down enough in the combined BCS rankings. And you're a liar if you think the coaches who put in the #8 votes didn't know exactly what they were doing.
Just like the 8 coaches who put Texas at #7 or #8?
I know you want it to be the combined power of many dark forces that cost Cal the bid, but it wasn't.
As I have already explained. Even if every single voter, both AP and Coach put Cal #4 and Texas #4 the BCS score would have been tied.
In that scenario it would only take one voter from either the AP or the Coaches poll to put Texas #4 Cal #5 to put UT into the Rose. That's all it took, and why? Because our schedule was more difficult and the computers had that factored in.
Find a way to deal with your loss without bashing Texas and we will not have a problem. Until then, you are rehashing bullshit conspiracy theories. Yes, coaches voted with regional motives, but that worked against Texas more than it did Cal.
Originally posted by groverat
Why on earth is whining about the BCS acceptable but asking for votes is not? Can you provide some logic behind that besides "I wanted Cal to get into the Rose Bowl"?
First off, Tedford is hardly complaining about the BCS system. He's one who takes the stance of "its the system we have so might as well accept it." Leading up to and after the game he was very level headed about this.
However, complaining about a broken system and how it should be changed is very different than asking others to vote for your team. The system impacts everyone but asking for votes is selfish. Last year, USC had every right to bitch about the system.
I might add that if the situation was flipped between Texas and Cal, Tedford would not have asked for votes during the press conference. Plain and simple.
Originally posted by groverat
Find a way to deal with your loss without bashing Texas and we will not have a problem. Until then, you are rehashing bullshit conspiracy theories. Yes, coaches voted with regional motives, but that worked against Texas more than it did Cal.
Here's the thing, I've come to terms with the bowl situation and am not bashing Texas. Texas' behavior speaks for itself. What's done is done. But that doesn't mean we can't improve the system for next year, and for everyone.
If it was the players passionately asking for votes and not the coach, I'd be far more comfortable. They're just kids after all and I wouldn't hold the to the same standards that I expect for the coach or the staff.
Also it depends on the context. If offhand the coach claimed that the team was rated poorly and presented a good case it would be one thing, but to go on national TV and just say vote for us 'cuz we done good is entirely inappropriate.
And what's next, a major media blitz during Monday night football to encourage votes for you school? Hell, start sending highlight reels and cookies to the other coaches: "Please vote for us. If you do, next year we'll go easier on you." This stuff should never happen and unfortunately we've started down this road.
That doesn't mean I can't remain steadfast when saying that asking for votes is inappropriate.
Texas won the rose bowl berth but in doing so they acted below themselves. Did it actually impact the rankings, I doubt we'll ever know, but nobody should resort to asking for votes on TV.
Originally posted by Xool
The system impacts everyone but asking for votes is selfish. Last year, USC had every right to bitch about the system.
Winning football games is also selfish. Maybe Texas should organize a tie with every team they play next year so no one gets their feelings hurt.
Selfish...
I might add that if the situation was flipped between Texas and Cal, Tedford would not have asked for votes during the press conference. Plain and simple.
Press conference? No.
In the on-the-field interview directly after the game. You know, like the thing where the reporter goes and talks to the coach on the field, the one where Lloyd Carr went apeshit at halftime of the UM/OSU game last year.
Are you sure you saw Mack ask for votes, after all?
Furthermore, I could just as easily say that Mack Brown wouldn't wait until it was too late to make a case for his team (like Tedford has).
Mack's plea for votes was meaningless except to provide Cal fans something to rub themselves with to ease the pain.
UT lost votes after the incident. Read that again: UT lost votes afterwards.
One more time, let's see if it sinks in this time: UT lost votes afterwards.
So I'll ask a question ans hope you answer it:
Xool, did Mack Brown's plea for votes have any impact on the poll situation?
Please try and answer this question. And when you finally allow yourself to answer "no" please explain, in some detail, why Cal fans like yourself choose to focus on it. This is your opportunity to flex that great UC-B education and do some self-analysis.
Mack stood up for his team knowing he was going to take a shitload of heat for it. His words didn't mean anything at the end of the day but it is indicative of how much he cares about his players (and why sure-fire Top 10 superstars like Derrick Johnson, Roy/Ricky/Mike Williams and Leonard Davis stay for their senior seasons).
Here's the thing, I've come to terms with the bowl situation and am not bashing Texas. Texas' behavior speaks for itself.
That is such a load of shit. You say you aren't bashing Texas and the next sentence is bashing Texas. Do you think I am too stupid to read English?
"Look, Xool, I'm not insulting you here, but you're a total cocksucker."
You act like Mack's perfectly harmless comments are objectively wrong. They are not, that is your heavily biased opinion as a bitter Cal fan.
Originally posted by groverat
You act like Mack's perfectly harmless comments are objectively wrong. They are not, that is your heavily biased opinion as a bitter Cal fan.
Wrong. And this is my point, I find the comments objectively wrong. I don't think everyone thinks the same. Obviously there are die hard Cal fans who will attack Texas for any and every reason, but I am not one of them.
I find what Mackey did was tasteless. period. Had some other coach done it I'd be on their case just as hard, although I doubt the discussion in here would be as heated.
Before I answer the next question about the impact of Mackey's words, I want to quote myself in an earlier post:
Originally posted by Xool
I think we didn't make the Rose Bowl due to our performance
Originally posted by groverat
Did Mack Brown's plea for votes have any impact on the poll situation?
I don't believe that it should have, but it probably had a slight impact. Not because it changed people's votes but because it got more coaches to focus on the situation and watch Cal's last game. Either way, the final standings and outcome rely squarely on the performance of our team. If we had a better closing game we probably would not have dropped as much in the polls.
Don't get me wrong. Watching the game is good. Every coach should watch every team they're ranking, but that's impossible.
Additionally, while I would hope most coaches wouldn't change their vote just because some other coach asked him to, I would expect that there are a few out there who might. Either way, those votes should be so few that it shouldn't make an impact.
So again, Cal dropped because we didn't play our best game. Thus lower rankings and no Rose Bowl. Fault: Cal. Am I disappointed? Yes. Jealous? Sure. Looking forward to next year? You bet!
I apologize for the many zealot Cal fans. They make us look bad just like crazed mac zealots.
However, two points remain:
* The BCS is screwed up. Those weird votes logically shouldn't have been cast. Perhaps the rationale for a coaches vote should be recorded to prevent dubious behavior. Perhaps a double-blind peer review could help?
Either way, the votes involved are not responsible for keeping Cal out. That is not why I am upset. I'm upset as this sketchy voting impacts all teams and the entire BCS system. I think it takes a good team to spearhead change. Like SC last year, I think we can help improve the system. They added human polls to the final rankings and we can add open or semi-open polls.
* Coach Mackey acted inappropriately when he asked for votes. This did not kill our bowl hopes, but is still not the right thing to do. Some may think otherwise and that's fine, but personally I don't believe this is appropriate behavior. A good question is how did Auburn act in the weeks prior to the final votes?
Originally posted by groverat
Mack stood up for his team knowing he was going to take a shitload of heat for it
Why was he "going to take a shitload of heat for it"? Because I and many others think the behavior is inappropriate!
I find what Mackey did was tasteless.
"Mackey"?
You can't even post without tripping over yourself. You just can't not take a swipe at him can you?
* Coach Mackey acted inappropriately when he asked for votes. This did not kill our bowl hopes, but is still not the right thing to do. Some may think otherwise and that's fine, but personally I don't believe this is appropriate behavior. A good question is how did Auburn act in the weeks prior to the final votes?
"Mackey" again? Jesus Christ.
What is so funny about this whole thing is that Cal fans are acting like children even when they try to not act like children and then moralize about Mack Brown acting inappropriately.
JEFFY TEDDYFORDY AND THE CALIFORNIAY BEARSEYS!
Cal fans and players are the arbiters of "class" because they waited until after the BCS selection to act like a pack of screaming toddlers.
But you guys aren't really familiar with life at the top of the college football heap, so it isn't surprising to see you all flood in out of nowhere and act like you own the place. But it is still funny.
But you guys aren't really familiar with life at the top of the college football heap, so it isn't surprising to see you all flood in out of nowhere and act like you own the place. But it is still funny.
You aren't really familiar with life at the top of the academic heap and being able to see your feet so I'm not surprised you have shown such a lack of intelligence and poise in this thread. But it is still funny.
I actually thought Mackey was his name. I don't follow the Texas team that closely. I don't like what he did and I'm sorry I butchered his name.
I won't go back and edit my posts because I did indeed screw his name up. You'll note that in early posts I didn't refer to him by name and just said Texas, and that was for this very reason.
But my inability to spell or research his name does not fix his actions. Coach Mack's behavior was inappropriate.
Originally posted by applenut
You aren't really familiar with life at the top of the academic heap and being able to see your feet so I'm not surprised you have shown such a lack of intelligence and poise in this thread. But it is still funny.
it's even funnier coming from you.
go get some weight loss program started you fat piece of shit.
real classy. besides, groovers not fat, he's just big-boned.
Originally posted by running with scissors
it's even funnier coming from you.
not really. since what i do is an act and what the fool from texas is doing is real.
there is a difference. and yet you can't see it.
that's the funny part.