Yes, there is a reason. All arguments aside, it boils down to this: Apple wants market share, and that market share could only be achieved by luring Windows/Linux users. What are Linux/Windows users accustomed to? Why two button mice! (or more..)
The point is; if you want more switchers, don't force them to adjust to you. You have to adjust to them. It doesn't really matter wether it's ergonomic or not; the market has decided, they want 2 or more buttons in mice, and that's all there is too it.
It's not a big deal if they don't offer one, but if they do, they'd be listening to their customers. And that's how success is achieved.
Which customers should Apple listen to? You - who wants one, and Me - who doesn't? "the market has decided" - why are we even here, because the "market" has decided Windows?
There is no reason why Apple has to do that. They are not selling the Mac as a Windows machine.
I'll say it again, if you want a two button mouse go out and spend the $15 to get one.
Why do we have to waste time on something like this? This has got to be one of the LEAST important subjects to have ever come up here.
The significance is if it becomes standard then the OS/GUI consistency will change. Hidden menus are bad which is why 1 should be the lowest denominator (as someone said earlier).
Which customers should Apple listen to? You - who wants one, and Me - who doesn't? "the market has decided" - why are we even here, because the "market" has decided Windows?
Comparing an OS to a mouse is just... unintellegent. Totally different issue.
Tell me, how many companies sell 1 button mice and how many sell 2/3/whatever?
Then I'll tell you what the market has decided. Just like the market decided to go with USB instead of FireWire, and Apple actually listened.
Tell me, how many companies sell 1 button mice and how many sell 2/3/whatever?
Then I'll tell you what the market has decided. Just like the market decided to go with USB instead of FireWire, and Apple actually listened.
No, actually, all that tells you is that the dominant OS *requires* at least 2 buttons, so that's what people rather have to buy/make/sell.
MacOS is the only GUI out there that is designed to work with a single button, and since the market share is <5%, that's not where the 3rd parties are going to put their product focus.
Actually, as for hidden menus..Apples have more since you can either press ctrl+mouse or apple+mouse, whereas in Windows world the right click is the only way to call up a menu.
I think at the end of the day, it just varies person-to-person and there's no right or wrong, although I would like to see 2 button mouse support where the right click just does the same as ctrl+click or apple+click (not add extra)...I'd also like to see an apple scroll mouse, but that's another story...
<offtopic>
I'd also like to see a return of mac keyboards with black buttons (like the iMac G3 one I have now, but without the fruity colors underneath) since those white keys get dirty too easily (especially for me since I tend to eat while I work)...specifically, I'd like one modeled after the Apple mouse, which in my opinion is superb design.
Are you kidding? There are contextual menus invoked by rightclick in EVERY APPLE APP, and Mac OS X.
Don't dumb it down for the idiots, Apple.
Wow, 3,000th post!
I think the point is that all those contextual menus are also easily accessed through the menu bar, and if macs didn't come with a one button mouse, that probably wouldn't be the case
I think the point is that all those contextual menus are also easily accessed through the menu bar, ...
I strongly disagree. Many OS X apps (of moderate complexity anyway) have certain functions that can only be accessed with contextual menus. Simple example: where can you access functions in Safari's Download window from the menu bar? And it's often hard to know if and where those contextual menus exist. Or which modifier keys change the action of mouse-clicked items. Sites like MacOSXHints are often revealing these "hidden gems" lurking in OS X GUI apps. I only wish they were more obvious and/or better documented than they actually are.
I strongly disagree. Many OS X apps (of moderate complexity anyway) have certain functions that can only be accessed with contextual menus. Simple example: where can you access functions in Safari's Download window from the menu bar? And it's often hard to know if and where those contextual menus exist. Or which modifier keys change the action of mouse-clicked items. Sites like MacOSXHints are often revealing these "hidden gems" lurking in OS X GUI apps. I only wish they were more obvious and/or better documented than they actually are.
Your post does point up problems. The problems are those of Apple's own making. It's the lack of a decent manual.
When I bought my first Mac, a 950 in 1992, it came with a 320 page manual for the OS etc., and a 98 hardware manual. Plus it had a twenty something page manual for other things. It explained EXACTLY how to do almost everything the OS permitted. Step by step.
Now that the OS is far more complex, we get almost nothing.
It's all part of trying to pretend that it's all so easy that a manual isn't necessary.
I have David's book. "The Missing Manual", and it's 750 pages. You know what, they're all needed!
Apple could at least supply us one with most of the basics. What Apple and others forget these days is that a "help" screen isn't the same thing. Unless you have a portable, you aren't going to sit in bed looking through it. Even then, it's a pain. And you have to be connected for a lot of it.
I strongly disagree. Many OS X apps (of moderate complexity anyway) have certain functions that can only be accessed with contextual menus. Simple example: where can you access functions in Safari's Download window from the menu bar? [/b]
Oh this one's easy:
I see four items in Safari 1.3 when I ctrl- (or right-) click on an item in Downloads window: Show in Finder, Open, Copy Address, Remove from List.
Show in Finder: Click the magnifying glass next to the item.
Open: Double-click the item.
Copy Address: Cmd-C, or Edit -> Copy
Remove from List: Delete key, or Edit -> Delete
If you look at the contextual menu of an interrupted download, you'll see Resume instead of Open... Resume is the same as the orange circular arrow button to the right for that item, next to the magnifying glass.
As usual, the contextual menu items are all just shortcuts for actions available through methods using only a single button.
You're right in that it is not perfect, but often you just need to look a bit harder for the way to trigger it with a single button.
Quote:
And it's often hard to know if and where those contextual menus exist.
BINGO! Lack of discoverability. That is *precisely* the problem with contextual menus, when used as the *primary* way of interacting with the interface... but if you poke around a bit, you'll find the same functionality right there in front of you using only the single button.
Quote:
Or which modifier keys change the action of mouse-clicked items. Sites like MacOSXHints are often revealing these "hidden gems" lurking in OS X GUI apps. I only wish they were more obvious and/or better documented than they actually are.
No argument there, but you'll notice that *most* of these are actions that *can* be done through multiple steps in some other way.
Maybe if you mouse over a part of the screen with a contextual menu available, your cursor would have a little, subtle contextual menu icon next to it.
There's discoverability.
BTW, I can't imagine using Finalcut without a two-button mouse.
Actually, as for hidden menus..Apples have more since you can either press ctrl+mouse or apple+mouse, whereas in Windows world the right click is the only way to call up a menu.
Apple+click? Where? Seriously, I've never seen this and not being able to do key+mouse combos makes me accutely aware of them.
Comments
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Yes, there is a reason. All arguments aside, it boils down to this: Apple wants market share, and that market share could only be achieved by luring Windows/Linux users. What are Linux/Windows users accustomed to? Why two button mice! (or more..)
The point is; if you want more switchers, don't force them to adjust to you. You have to adjust to them. It doesn't really matter wether it's ergonomic or not; the market has decided, they want 2 or more buttons in mice, and that's all there is too it.
It's not a big deal if they don't offer one, but if they do, they'd be listening to their customers. And that's how success is achieved.
Which customers should Apple listen to? You - who wants one, and Me - who doesn't? "the market has decided" - why are we even here, because the "market" has decided Windows?
Originally posted by melgross
There is no reason why Apple has to do that. They are not selling the Mac as a Windows machine.
I'll say it again, if you want a two button mouse go out and spend the $15 to get one.
Why do we have to waste time on something like this? This has got to be one of the LEAST important subjects to have ever come up here.
The significance is if it becomes standard then the OS/GUI consistency will change. Hidden menus are bad which is why 1 should be the lowest denominator (as someone said earlier).
(And now they will join forces and tell the outsider that THAT is certainly not the case)
Originally posted by jwdawso
Which customers should Apple listen to? You - who wants one, and Me - who doesn't? "the market has decided" - why are we even here, because the "market" has decided Windows?
Comparing an OS to a mouse is just... unintellegent. Totally different issue.
Tell me, how many companies sell 1 button mice and how many sell 2/3/whatever?
Then I'll tell you what the market has decided. Just like the market decided to go with USB instead of FireWire, and Apple actually listened.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Comparing an OS to a mouse is just... unintellegent. Totally different issue.
Tell me, how many companies sell 1 button mice and how many sell 2/3/whatever?
Then I'll tell you what the market has decided. Just like the market decided to go with USB instead of FireWire, and Apple actually listened.
If proof could be supplied that Apple is losing present customers, or not gaining new customers because of this issue, then I would concur.
Until then...
Originally posted by melgross
If proof could be supplied that Apple is losing present customers, or not gaining new customers because of this issue, then I would concur.
Until then...
This is what I said before:
It's not a big deal if they don't offer one, but if they do, they'd be listening to their customers. And that's how success is achieved.
It's good to adjust to your customers. A mouse is not why you buy a computer, but it's one of those little things that make your life easier.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Tell me, how many companies sell 1 button mice and how many sell 2/3/whatever?
Then I'll tell you what the market has decided. Just like the market decided to go with USB instead of FireWire, and Apple actually listened.
No, actually, all that tells you is that the dominant OS *requires* at least 2 buttons, so that's what people rather have to buy/make/sell.
MacOS is the only GUI out there that is designed to work with a single button, and since the market share is <5%, that's not where the 3rd parties are going to put their product focus.
I think at the end of the day, it just varies person-to-person and there's no right or wrong, although I would like to see 2 button mouse support where the right click just does the same as ctrl+click or apple+click (not add extra)...I'd also like to see an apple scroll mouse, but that's another story...
<offtopic>
I'd also like to see a return of mac keyboards with black buttons (like the iMac G3 one I have now, but without the fruity colors underneath) since those white keys get dirty too easily (especially for me since I tend to eat while I work)...specifically, I'd like one modeled after the Apple mouse, which in my opinion is superb design.
</offtopic>
Originally posted by Kickaha
I agree. A two-button mouse would signify a massive change in UI philosophy that has been steadily heading the other direction.
Are you kidding? There are contextual menus invoked by rightclick in EVERY APPLE APP, and Mac OS X.
Don't dumb it down for the idiots, Apple.
Originally posted by Kickaha
I agree. A two-button mouse would signify a massive change in UI philosophy that has been steadily heading the other direction.
Are you kidding? There are contextual menus invoked by rightclick in EVERY APPLE APP, and Mac OS X.
Don't dumb it down for the idiots, Apple.
Wow, 3,000th post!
Originally posted by Placebo
I definitely clicked "edit". Blame it on the board, people.
But isn't the real question in this thread: when is Apple going to release an AirPort Express with video capabilities?
Originally posted by Placebo
Are you kidding? There are contextual menus invoked by rightclick in EVERY APPLE APP, and Mac OS X.
Don't dumb it down for the idiots, Apple.
Wow, 3,000th post!
I think the point is that all those contextual menus are also easily accessed through the menu bar, and if macs didn't come with a one button mouse, that probably wouldn't be the case
Originally posted by Placebo
I definitely clicked "edit". Blame it on the board, people.
Yeah, it tells me that I'm not authorized to delete my own posts!
Originally posted by Flounder
I think the point is that all those contextual menus are also easily accessed through the menu bar, ...
I strongly disagree. Many OS X apps (of moderate complexity anyway) have certain functions that can only be accessed with contextual menus. Simple example: where can you access functions in Safari's Download window from the menu bar? And it's often hard to know if and where those contextual menus exist. Or which modifier keys change the action of mouse-clicked items. Sites like MacOSXHints are often revealing these "hidden gems" lurking in OS X GUI apps. I only wish they were more obvious and/or better documented than they actually are.
Originally posted by sjk
I strongly disagree. Many OS X apps (of moderate complexity anyway) have certain functions that can only be accessed with contextual menus. Simple example: where can you access functions in Safari's Download window from the menu bar? And it's often hard to know if and where those contextual menus exist. Or which modifier keys change the action of mouse-clicked items. Sites like MacOSXHints are often revealing these "hidden gems" lurking in OS X GUI apps. I only wish they were more obvious and/or better documented than they actually are.
Your post does point up problems. The problems are those of Apple's own making. It's the lack of a decent manual.
When I bought my first Mac, a 950 in 1992, it came with a 320 page manual for the OS etc., and a 98 hardware manual. Plus it had a twenty something page manual for other things. It explained EXACTLY how to do almost everything the OS permitted. Step by step.
Now that the OS is far more complex, we get almost nothing.
It's all part of trying to pretend that it's all so easy that a manual isn't necessary.
I have David's book. "The Missing Manual", and it's 750 pages. You know what, they're all needed!
Apple could at least supply us one with most of the basics. What Apple and others forget these days is that a "help" screen isn't the same thing. Unless you have a portable, you aren't going to sit in bed looking through it. Even then, it's a pain. And you have to be connected for a lot of it.
Originally posted by sjk
I strongly disagree. Many OS X apps (of moderate complexity anyway) have certain functions that can only be accessed with contextual menus. Simple example: where can you access functions in Safari's Download window from the menu bar? [/b]
Oh this one's easy:
I see four items in Safari 1.3 when I ctrl- (or right-) click on an item in Downloads window: Show in Finder, Open, Copy Address, Remove from List.
Show in Finder: Click the magnifying glass next to the item.
Open: Double-click the item.
Copy Address: Cmd-C, or Edit -> Copy
Remove from List: Delete key, or Edit -> Delete
If you look at the contextual menu of an interrupted download, you'll see Resume instead of Open... Resume is the same as the orange circular arrow button to the right for that item, next to the magnifying glass.
As usual, the contextual menu items are all just shortcuts for actions available through methods using only a single button.
You're right in that it is not perfect, but often you just need to look a bit harder for the way to trigger it with a single button.
And it's often hard to know if and where those contextual menus exist.
BINGO! Lack of discoverability. That is *precisely* the problem with contextual menus, when used as the *primary* way of interacting with the interface... but if you poke around a bit, you'll find the same functionality right there in front of you using only the single button.
Or which modifier keys change the action of mouse-clicked items. Sites like MacOSXHints are often revealing these "hidden gems" lurking in OS X GUI apps. I only wish they were more obvious and/or better documented than they actually are.
No argument there, but you'll notice that *most* of these are actions that *can* be done through multiple steps in some other way.
There's discoverability.
BTW, I can't imagine using Finalcut without a two-button mouse.
Originally posted by mynamehere
Actually, as for hidden menus..Apples have more since you can either press ctrl+mouse or apple+mouse, whereas in Windows world the right click is the only way to call up a menu.
Apple+click? Where? Seriously, I've never seen this and not being able to do key+mouse combos makes me accutely aware of them.