command-click used to click the background window until Apple screwed up the behavior. Pity about that
As for contextual click, you shouldn't ever need to use it. Personally, I would like to be able to build custom menus made from items of other menus and drag these menus off the bar into floating window toolbars. I would find that very handy (plus it would follow the global menu paradigm very well, which I support).
1) With Carbon apps it only works with the title bar (used to work anywhere in the window).
2) Apple ought to remove the command key from the event when clicking a background window so it's like a normal click. I'm not sure if they ever fixed this, but I think it's rather obvious.
Now that the OS is far more complex, we get almost nothing.
It's all part of trying to pretend that it's all so easy that a manual isn't necessary.
And to cut costs.
Quote:
Apple could at least supply us one with most of the basics.
Just this morning a friend of mine who recently bought an iMac G5 was complaining how sparse the included "documentation" for it is. I said part of the trouble is figuring out what's relevant to include since customers have such a wide diversity of skill levels, interests, needs, etc. And do we really want duplicate copies of the same docs with every new system we buy?
At least for first-time system buyers, one idea would be for Apple to include a reasonably generous credit up to a certain amount (like $25, not $5) towards purchase of documentation or other training materials from a selected catalog, directly from Apple and/or publishers like O'Reilly. The credit would be enough to cover a good number of common selections, while the difference for some premium selections wouldn't be discouragingly high. Like rebates, some customers wouldn't redeem the credit.
The intention (however it's done) is to reduce the disappointment some customers have when they discover the lack of printed documentation with their new system. It bothers me that companies don't look for creative customer-oriented solutions and instead seem satisfied to encourage an expectation that "you ain't getting any substantial printed docs with that system". Not that most people would even bother to read 'em ...
Quote:
Apple could at least supply us one with most of the basics. What Apple and others forget these days is that a "help" screen isn't the same thing. Unless you have a portable, you aren't going to sit in bed looking through it. Even then, it's a pain. And you have to be connected for a lot of it.
It's hard to define "most of the basics". And mainstream computer users nowadays don't seem to have much attention and patience for reading documentation. I'd think that relatively short, technically soft, visually-oriented "guided tours" that teach key concepts and procedures for specific tasks could be more interesting and motivating.
Something's lacking in education, training, documentation, etc. for fundamental, Internet-connected computer skills. It's a complex issue without any guaranteed ways to improve it. Definitely beyond an off-topic discussion in a forum thread.
You can command-click the scrollbar in a Cocoa app window and scroll it without bringing it to the front or switching to that app. I use that most often for "background scrolling" Safari windows.
Indeed. Wrong choice for an example. I was going to use DEVONthink but that's not an Apple app.
Thanks for the reminder about command-C for Copy Address. I wish Show in Finder had a keyboard shortcut.
Quote:
BINGO! Lack of discoverability. That is *precisely* the problem with contextual menus, when used as the *primary* way of interacting with the interface... but if you poke around a bit, you'll find the same functionality right there in front of you using only the single button.
Or keyboard shortcut.
In DEVONthink (it's time has come ), certain actions are only available from contextual menus, which I've mentioned to the developer in suggestions about usability and consistency. It's one of my favorite apps even with its UI quirks. One that really interferes with usability is unpredictable behavior after certain actions, such as which item (if any) will be selected after moving an item (or items) to a different group. But enough digression about that.
Quote:
No argument there, but you'll notice that *most* of these are actions that *can* be done through multiple steps in some other way.
Tho' savvy users quickly outgrow multiple steps for repetitive actions, which is why it would be useful if quicker methods were more easily discoverable and/or clearly documented. For instance, why is Keyboard and Mouse Shortcuts hidden under Safari's Debug menu that's disabled by default?
Something I miss from Emacs in most OS X apps is context-sensitive help, especially describe-key. That type of quick reference to a description of the action (if any) assigned to a keyboard shortcut would be very handy as a universal feature in OS X apps. Think tooltips for shortcuts. But unlike regular tooltips, which can be distracting, this would only be there when you want it and not in your way when you don't. I can imagine that being possible if Apple were to ever reimplement a better system-wide shortcuts mechanism, similar to what's suggested at the end of John Gruber's Losers, Weepers article. Maybe in OS XI?
Maybe if you mouse over a part of the screen with a contextual menu available, your cursor would have a little, subtle contextual menu icon next to it.
or...
if the ui guidelines stated you should always put the significant commands for the object in question in the conxtet nenue, you could always expct the needed command to be easy availeble and you wouldnt be needed to scroll that litte bugger of a pointer across the scrren (and maybe onto an other display) to find out how you can mess whitit-.
i always think:
'left click = poke it around, right click = mess it around!.'
...and then i go eat a candybar.
ps
this mousing from one end of the/one screen to the/an other and backagain drives me nuts from time to time
Really - who cares if Apple produces a 3 button mouse? The only thing that will change is that you will have 101 options for 3 button USB mice, where you only had 100 before.
The Airport thing I care about, but only if they significantly improve it (adding a real Toslink port does not cut it).
there is no way apple should have a two button mouse. laptops don't come with a mosue and if you want one, buy a 2 button mouse, not apple's mouse. poeple who buy imacs, powermacs, have enough $$ to "upgrade" to a two button mouse for $20. The only thing apple needs a two button mouse for is int he mac mini, but, the mini doesn't come with a mouse and ppl who buy the mini are using an older mouse or buy a cheaper mouse from dell. the eMac doesn't need one cause students are accustomed to using 1 button mice and don't need a second one cause they usually don't know much about apple computers anyway. to top it all off, jobs won't go for it, it won't happen, i don't want it to happen, and it doesn't need to happen.
*cough cough* i just realized, ummm, i would like a second button on my powerbook. i've needed it a lot, that's the one thing a two button mouse has going for apple. i am annoyed with pushing control and then clicking, but it isn't too bad, i'm used to it. i am wondering, any1 (amazing with computers maybe) able to upgrade it to a two button clicker on the trackpad?
But isn't the real question in this thread: when is Apple going to release an AirPort Express with video capabilities?
I'm interested if it could replace EyeHome and its clunky UI for streaming video. Until then I'm satisfied using AirPort Express for streaming audio with AirTunes and video through EyeHome. Best under $250 investment I've made for our modest "home theatre" setup... and no complaints from the wife about excessive wiring.
there is no way apple should have a two button mouse. laptops don't come with a mosue and if you want one, buy a 2 button mouse, not apple's mouse. poeple who buy imacs, powermacs, have enough $$ to "upgrade" to a two button mouse for $20. The only thing apple needs a two button mouse for is int he mac mini, but, the mini doesn't come with a mouse and ppl who buy the mini are using an older mouse or buy a cheaper mouse from dell. the eMac doesn't need one cause students are accustomed to using 1 button mice and don't need a second one cause they usually don't know much about apple computers anyway. to top it all off, jobs won't go for it, it won't happen, i don't want it to happen, and it doesn't need to happen.
*cough cough* i just realized, ummm, i would like a second button on my powerbook. i've needed it a lot, that's the one thing a two button mouse has going for apple. i am annoyed with pushing control and then clicking, but it isn't too bad, i'm used to it. i am wondering, any1 (amazing with computers maybe) able to upgrade it to a two button clicker on the trackpad?
You brought up an interesting point that's been staring us in the face, but we haven't realised it.
The idea of the Mini is to reuse the PC's monitor, keyboard, and MOUSE.
And just what kind of mouse is that you ask?
A TWO button mouse.
So, Apple is encouraging those who are getting this inexpensive machine to not conform to Apple's guidelines by using a two button mouse, out of the box, so to speak.
Perhaps Apple is using this as the excuse to go to two button mice after all. Really, how much would it have cost Apple to include one if it meant so much?
I'm interested if it could replace EyeHome and its clunky UI for streaming video. Until then I'm satisfied using AirPort Express for streaming audio with AirTunes and video through EyeHome. Best under $250 investment I've made for our modest "home theatre" setup... and no complaints from the wife about excessive wiring.
One of the best "improvements" Apple could make here is to reduce the cost to $75 or so. It's almost impossible to recommend one to a new buyer when a Linksys or other can be gotten for $29-59, after, or even before a rebate.
One of the best "improvements" Apple could make here is to reduce the cost to $75 or so.
True. If I hadn't gotten mine from eBay for ~$80 (new) I probably wouldn't have bought one for more.
Quote:
It's almost impossible to recommend one to a new buyer when a Linksys or other can be gotten for $29-59, after, or even before a rebate.
I agree, unless you want AirTunes (which I do). And I'm happy with a WRT54GS as my main router, except that the generic Linksys firmware still doesn't support WDS+WPA. I've resisted installing other firmware (partly because of the Sveasoft fiasco "complicating" the situation) but I may give in if Linksys doesn't add it with their next revision.
Quote:
And no, The Airport isn't better.
Yep, which is why I bought the Linksys.
So far video streaming from the eMac and iMac G5 downstairs to the Airport Express and EyeHome upstairs has been rock solid, even with the highest quality MPEG-2 content I've tried. I guess that helps compensate for slow EyeHome software/firmware development. I don't want whatever Elgato's UI designer's been smoking.
You brought up an interesting point that's been staring us in the face, but we haven't realised it.
The idea of the Mini is to reuse the PC's monitor, keyboard, and MOUSE.
And just what kind of mouse is that you ask?
A TWO button mouse.
So, Apple is encouraging those who are getting this inexpensive machine to not conform to Apple's guidelines by using a two button mouse, out of the box, so to speak.
Perhaps Apple is using this as the excuse to go to two button mice after all. Really, how much would it have cost Apple to include one if it meant so much?
i guess you have a good point there. people who are swiching to mac through the mac mini, are used to the two button mouse, which is why it will make sense for apple to have a two button mouse, it won't help the mac users but it will attract more pc switchers
i guess you have a good point there. people who are swiching to mac through the mac mini, are used to the two button mouse, which is why it will make sense for apple to have a two button mouse, it won't help the mac users but it will attract more pc switchers
PC switchers are used to buying mouse upgrades and replacements so will likely prefer the expensive mouse they already have. What they aren't used to is everything matching so probably won't be bothered by the design.
there is no way apple should have a two button mouse.
...according to you anyway.
Quote:
laptops don't come with a mosue and if you want one, buy a 2 button mouse, not apple's mouse.
True, Apple's laptops come with trackpads, which also have (surprise) ONE button...it's just a mouse replacement, so I guess we'll get into that later.
Quote:
poeple who buy imacs, powermacs, have enough $$ to "upgrade" to a two button mouse for $20.
...and would like to be able to buy one from Apple
Quote:
The only thing apple needs a two button mouse for is int he mac mini, but, the mini doesn't come with a mouse and ppl who buy the mini are using an older mouse or buy a cheaper mouse from dell.
Most people using PC's (esp. older PC's) don't use mice that would work with the mini since theirs are PS/2 mice, not USB mice...same goes (even more so) for keyboards, but again, another discussion for another day
Quote:
the eMac doesn't need one cause students are accustomed to using 1 button mice and don't need a second one cause they usually don't know much about apple computers anyway.
Don't know where you've been, but last time I checked, Dell was the most popular student computer, and they ALL ship with 2 button mice, not to mention most of those people probably have PC's at home and therefore use (again) 2 button mice.
Quote:
to top it all off, jobs won't go for it, it won't happen, i don't want it to happen, and it doesn't need to happen.
I think what this boils down to is you don't want one. Personally, I would like a 2 button mouse so I don't have to use 2 hands to ctrl+click, and I would like one with Apple's great design...will it happen? maybe...maybe to attract switchers... will the one-button mouse die? maybe...maybe not. What I definitely want to see before a second button is a scrollwheel.
PC switchers are used to buying mouse upgrades and replacements so will likely prefer the expensive mouse they already have. What they aren't used to is everything matching so probably won't be bothered by the design.
People don't really upgrade their mouse...unless:
1. laptop: they buy a mouse
2. optical mouse to replace ball mouse
3. wireless mouse
4. broken mouse (not too common)
You also can't ignore that a lot of those older mice will be PS/2 mice, not USB mice and therefore incompatible...
Comments
As for contextual click, you shouldn't ever need to use it. Personally, I would like to be able to build custom menus made from items of other menus and drag these menus off the bar into floating window toolbars. I would find that very handy (plus it would follow the global menu paradigm very well, which I support).
Originally posted by strobe
command-click used to click the background window until Apple screwed up the behavior. Pity about that
Still works for me. What changed?
Originally posted by midwinter
Still works for me. What changed?
1) With Carbon apps it only works with the title bar (used to work anywhere in the window).
2) Apple ought to remove the command key from the event when clicking a background window so it's like a normal click. I'm not sure if they ever fixed this, but I think it's rather obvious.
Originally posted by melgross
Now that the OS is far more complex, we get almost nothing.
It's all part of trying to pretend that it's all so easy that a manual isn't necessary.
And to cut costs.
Quote:
Apple could at least supply us one with most of the basics.
Just this morning a friend of mine who recently bought an iMac G5 was complaining how sparse the included "documentation" for it is. I said part of the trouble is figuring out what's relevant to include since customers have such a wide diversity of skill levels, interests, needs, etc. And do we really want duplicate copies of the same docs with every new system we buy?
At least for first-time system buyers, one idea would be for Apple to include a reasonably generous credit up to a certain amount (like $25, not $5) towards purchase of documentation or other training materials from a selected catalog, directly from Apple and/or publishers like O'Reilly. The credit would be enough to cover a good number of common selections, while the difference for some premium selections wouldn't be discouragingly high. Like rebates, some customers wouldn't redeem the credit.
The intention (however it's done) is to reduce the disappointment some customers have when they discover the lack of printed documentation with their new system. It bothers me that companies don't look for creative customer-oriented solutions and instead seem satisfied to encourage an expectation that "you ain't getting any substantial printed docs with that system". Not that most people would even bother to read 'em ...
Apple could at least supply us one with most of the basics. What Apple and others forget these days is that a "help" screen isn't the same thing. Unless you have a portable, you aren't going to sit in bed looking through it. Even then, it's a pain. And you have to be connected for a lot of it.
It's hard to define "most of the basics". And mainstream computer users nowadays don't seem to have much attention and patience for reading documentation. I'd think that relatively short, technically soft, visually-oriented "guided tours" that teach key concepts and procedures for specific tasks could be more interesting and motivating.
Something's lacking in education, training, documentation, etc. for fundamental, Internet-connected computer skills. It's a complex issue without any guaranteed ways to improve it. Definitely beyond an off-topic discussion in a forum thread.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Oh this one's easy:
[...]
Indeed. Wrong choice for an example. I was going to use DEVONthink but that's not an Apple app.
Thanks for the reminder about command-C for Copy Address. I wish Show in Finder had a keyboard shortcut.
BINGO! Lack of discoverability. That is *precisely* the problem with contextual menus, when used as the *primary* way of interacting with the interface... but if you poke around a bit, you'll find the same functionality right there in front of you using only the single button.
Or keyboard shortcut.
In DEVONthink (it's time has come
No argument there, but you'll notice that *most* of these are actions that *can* be done through multiple steps in some other way.
Tho' savvy users quickly outgrow multiple steps for repetitive actions, which is why it would be useful if quicker methods were more easily discoverable and/or clearly documented. For instance, why is Keyboard and Mouse Shortcuts hidden under Safari's Debug menu that's disabled by default?
Something I miss from Emacs in most OS X apps is context-sensitive help, especially describe-key. That type of quick reference to a description of the action (if any) assigned to a keyboard shortcut would be very handy as a universal feature in OS X apps. Think tooltips for shortcuts. But unlike regular tooltips, which can be distracting, this would only be there when you want it and not in your way when you don't. I can imagine that being possible if Apple were to ever reimplement a better system-wide shortcuts mechanism, similar to what's suggested at the end of John Gruber's Losers, Weepers article. Maybe in OS XI?
Originally posted by Placebo
Maybe if you mouse over a part of the screen with a contextual menu available, your cursor would have a little, subtle contextual menu icon next to it.
or...
if the ui guidelines stated you should always put the significant commands for the object in question in the conxtet nenue, you could always expct the needed command to be easy availeble and you wouldnt be needed to scroll that litte bugger of a pointer across the scrren (and maybe onto an other display) to find out how you can mess whitit-.
i always think:
'left click = poke it around, right click = mess it around!.'
...and then i go eat a candybar.
ps
this mousing from one end of the/one screen to the/an other and backagain drives me nuts from time to time
(and then i go use a proper wm: http://modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~tuomov/ion/ )
Really - who cares if Apple produces a 3 button mouse? The only thing that will change is that you will have 101 options for 3 button USB mice, where you only had 100 before.
The Airport thing I care about, but only if they significantly improve it (adding a real Toslink port does not cut it).
*cough cough* i just realized, ummm, i would like a second button on my powerbook. i've needed it a lot, that's the one thing a two button mouse has going for apple. i am annoyed with pushing control and then clicking, but it isn't too bad, i'm used to it. i am wondering, any1 (amazing with computers maybe) able to upgrade it to a two button clicker on the trackpad?
Originally posted by Reid
But isn't the real question in this thread: when is Apple going to release an AirPort Express with video capabilities?
I'm interested if it could replace EyeHome and its clunky UI for streaming video. Until then I'm satisfied using AirPort Express for streaming audio with AirTunes and video through EyeHome. Best under $250 investment I've made for our modest "home theatre" setup... and no complaints from the wife about excessive wiring.
Originally posted by i-am-an-elf
there is no way apple should have a two button mouse. laptops don't come with a mosue and if you want one, buy a 2 button mouse, not apple's mouse. poeple who buy imacs, powermacs, have enough $$ to "upgrade" to a two button mouse for $20. The only thing apple needs a two button mouse for is int he mac mini, but, the mini doesn't come with a mouse and ppl who buy the mini are using an older mouse or buy a cheaper mouse from dell. the eMac doesn't need one cause students are accustomed to using 1 button mice and don't need a second one cause they usually don't know much about apple computers anyway. to top it all off, jobs won't go for it, it won't happen, i don't want it to happen, and it doesn't need to happen.
*cough cough* i just realized, ummm, i would like a second button on my powerbook. i've needed it a lot, that's the one thing a two button mouse has going for apple. i am annoyed with pushing control and then clicking, but it isn't too bad, i'm used to it. i am wondering, any1 (amazing with computers maybe) able to upgrade it to a two button clicker on the trackpad?
You brought up an interesting point that's been staring us in the face, but we haven't realised it.
The idea of the Mini is to reuse the PC's monitor, keyboard, and MOUSE.
And just what kind of mouse is that you ask?
A TWO button mouse.
So, Apple is encouraging those who are getting this inexpensive machine to not conform to Apple's guidelines by using a two button mouse, out of the box, so to speak.
Perhaps Apple is using this as the excuse to go to two button mice after all. Really, how much would it have cost Apple to include one if it meant so much?
Originally posted by sjk
I'm interested if it could replace EyeHome and its clunky UI for streaming video. Until then I'm satisfied using AirPort Express for streaming audio with AirTunes and video through EyeHome. Best under $250 investment I've made for our modest "home theatre" setup... and no complaints from the wife about excessive wiring.
One of the best "improvements" Apple could make here is to reduce the cost to $75 or so. It's almost impossible to recommend one to a new buyer when a Linksys or other can be gotten for $29-59, after, or even before a rebate.
And no, The Airport isn't better.
Originally posted by melgross
One of the best "improvements" Apple could make here is to reduce the cost to $75 or so.
True. If I hadn't gotten mine from eBay for ~$80 (new) I probably wouldn't have bought one for more.
It's almost impossible to recommend one to a new buyer when a Linksys or other can be gotten for $29-59, after, or even before a rebate.
I agree, unless you want AirTunes (which I do). And I'm happy with a WRT54GS as my main router, except that the generic Linksys firmware still doesn't support WDS+WPA. I've resisted installing other firmware (partly because of the Sveasoft fiasco "complicating" the situation) but I may give in if Linksys doesn't add it with their next revision.
And no, The Airport isn't better.
Yep, which is why I bought the Linksys.
So far video streaming from the eMac and iMac G5 downstairs to the Airport Express and EyeHome upstairs has been rock solid, even with the highest quality MPEG-2 content I've tried. I guess that helps compensate for slow EyeHome software/firmware development. I don't want whatever Elgato's UI designer's been smoking.
Originally posted by melgross
You brought up an interesting point that's been staring us in the face, but we haven't realised it.
The idea of the Mini is to reuse the PC's monitor, keyboard, and MOUSE.
And just what kind of mouse is that you ask?
A TWO button mouse.
So, Apple is encouraging those who are getting this inexpensive machine to not conform to Apple's guidelines by using a two button mouse, out of the box, so to speak.
Perhaps Apple is using this as the excuse to go to two button mice after all. Really, how much would it have cost Apple to include one if it meant so much?
i guess you have a good point there. people who are swiching to mac through the mac mini, are used to the two button mouse, which is why it will make sense for apple to have a two button mouse, it won't help the mac users but it will attract more pc switchers
Originally posted by i-am-an-elf
i guess you have a good point there. people who are swiching to mac through the mac mini, are used to the two button mouse, which is why it will make sense for apple to have a two button mouse, it won't help the mac users but it will attract more pc switchers
PC switchers are used to buying mouse upgrades and replacements so will likely prefer the expensive mouse they already have. What they aren't used to is everything matching so probably won't be bothered by the design.
Originally posted by i-am-an-elf
there is no way apple should have a two button mouse.
...according to you anyway.
laptops don't come with a mosue and if you want one, buy a 2 button mouse, not apple's mouse.
True, Apple's laptops come with trackpads, which also have (surprise) ONE button...it's just a mouse replacement, so I guess we'll get into that later.
poeple who buy imacs, powermacs, have enough $$ to "upgrade" to a two button mouse for $20.
...and would like to be able to buy one from Apple
The only thing apple needs a two button mouse for is int he mac mini, but, the mini doesn't come with a mouse and ppl who buy the mini are using an older mouse or buy a cheaper mouse from dell.
Most people using PC's (esp. older PC's) don't use mice that would work with the mini since theirs are PS/2 mice, not USB mice...same goes (even more so) for keyboards, but again, another discussion for another day
the eMac doesn't need one cause students are accustomed to using 1 button mice and don't need a second one cause they usually don't know much about apple computers anyway.
Don't know where you've been, but last time I checked, Dell was the most popular student computer, and they ALL ship with 2 button mice, not to mention most of those people probably have PC's at home and therefore use (again) 2 button mice.
to top it all off, jobs won't go for it, it won't happen, i don't want it to happen, and it doesn't need to happen.
I think what this boils down to is you don't want one. Personally, I would like a 2 button mouse so I don't have to use 2 hands to ctrl+click, and I would like one with Apple's great design...will it happen? maybe...maybe to attract switchers... will the one-button mouse die? maybe...maybe not. What I definitely want to see before a second button is a scrollwheel.
Originally posted by Blackcat
PC switchers are used to buying mouse upgrades and replacements so will likely prefer the expensive mouse they already have. What they aren't used to is everything matching so probably won't be bothered by the design.
People don't really upgrade their mouse...unless:
1. laptop: they buy a mouse
2. optical mouse to replace ball mouse
3. wireless mouse
4. broken mouse (not too common)
You also can't ignore that a lot of those older mice will be PS/2 mice, not USB mice and therefore incompatible...
Originally posted by i-am-an-elf
i don't want it to happen, and it doesn't need to happen.
You, and everybody else who shares that opinion, is stupid. Sorry!
Originally posted by Placebo
You, and everybody else who shares that opinion, is stupid. Sorry!
Not stupid, just on the wrong side of the argument.