Also as far as some odds bandied about in this thread. There is no way either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray has any more than a 10% advantage over the other.
As for Panny with the spincoat...prove it. Frankly many of us AV enthusiasts are tired of reading about BDA advances that aren't backed with empirical evidence.
Well, this should either muddy the waters, or make everything crystal clear.
It's very telling that Toshiba is the only choice for an HD-DVD player while Sony, Panasonic, Philips, JVC, Pioneer... well, pretty much everybody else is supporting Blu-Ray. I feel secure in knowing that if I don't like one particular player or if it gets bad reviews I can choose another.
The Blu-Ray disc structure has much greater potential for higher capacity discs far exceeding the 5GB difference. Great for box sets of movies and tv series as well as the retailers who value precious shelf space. Great for those who are interested in recording HD programs off TV and I can't imagine many people buying an HDTV set only to record in SD. Great for those interested in portable computer storage too.
Speaking of which, is this a slot-loading Blu-Ray drive I see from Apple's favorite OEM supplier? Why yes it is and it records to BD-R and BD-RE media as well as DVD±R, ±RW and -RAM. They are so far ahead of HD-DVD it's difficult to image why we are still discussing it.
I find it interesting that Blu-Ray fans are supporting the format that wants them to have the least amount of flexibility.
AACS encryption isn't enough for the BDA hey want BD+ on top. Managed Copy is an excellent feature that suits BDROM yet the BDA is noncommital.
Yet I hear cheers from many that seem impervious to these issues. What Fox, Disney etc want is wholly different than what you want.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
This is not about what we want or don't want, in fact - I doubt that there are any "blu-ray fans" here (on the other hand, you are definitely a HD_DVD fan).
We just see the chess pieces on the board, and are predicting a checkmate that is totally out of consumer control.
This is not about what we want or don't want, in fact - I doubt that there are any "blu-ray fans" here (on the other hand, you are definitely a HD_DVD fan). We just see the chess pieces on the board, and are predicting a checkmate that is totally out of consumer control.
agreed. from a personal view i like the word bluRay and have some emotional affinity for sony (i'm looking at a nice sony 17" lcd as i type this). so while my basic sensory perceptions have a "curious and interested" feeling about bluRay more than HDDVD which sounds lame, my heart and mind tells me that like you said, we are really just watching from the sidelines..... or, just to spice up the chess analogy further, it's like we're hanging out at compton LA behind semi-bulletproof glass watching a shootout between two rival gangs. you wanna join but you know you're going to get hurt along the way.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
Managed Copy, emphasis on "Managed". I just don't trust anything with DRM enough to consider it much better than something else with DRM. Therefore, giving it up is no big deal either.
While I think the situation is far from clear, the technologies are very similar and I'm not a "fan" of either, personally I would welcome a Blu-Ray win. Why?
- I want the PS3's standard to win because I might buy one. (Okay, this is a nonsensical reason because I'm not going to buy the DRM-laced movie disks anyway. Unless, of course, the PS3 can boot to Linux, whereupon it would be a good thing the PS3 supported the best data media.)
- I want the PS3 to beat a possible XBox360HD. There's no way it's a good thing the convicted monopolist gets a foot in in another market and (this part of their plans is clear) immediately uses it to prop up their desktop monopoly. Unlike the XBox, the XBox360 is designed as an extension of Windows (Media Center).
- The initial added capacity + potential for lots more.
- A more honest whole-new name and brand, instead of play-it-safe name recognition that has the potential to screw an unwary buyer.
I find it interesting that Blu-Ray fans are supporting the format that wants them to have the least amount of flexibility.
AACS encryption isn't enough for the BDA hey want BD+ on top. Managed Copy is an excellent feature that suits BDROM yet the BDA is noncommital.
Yet I hear cheers from many that seem impervious to these issues. What Fox, Disney etc want is wholly different than what you want.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
We don't know what that exactly means yet.
According to what I've read about it, allowing a copy will be mandatory, unlike with BlueRay where the entertainment companies will decide whether or not to allow it, both as individual companies, and on an issue by issue basis.
Now that sounds good for HD DVD, but we don't know if they will charge for that copy, and if they do, how much. We also don't know what they will allow us to do with that copy. They can control its usage as iTunes and other music services do. It might just be allowed for backup.
With BlueRay, if they allow a copy it might be allowed to be transferred over a network, or loaded to another drive.
Again, who knows?
I can just say that the 10GB (it's not 5) extra per single layer, and the 20 for dual layer disks sounds good. Double sided BlueRay disks will go to 100GB, but HD DVD only 60GB. That sounds good as well. We don't know about it costing more, only HD DVD backers are saying that it will.
According to what I've read about it, allowing a copy will be mandatory, unlike with BlueRay where the entertainment companies will decide whether or not to allow it, both as individual companies, and on an issue by issue basis.
How important do you think the issue of whether Managed Copy is mandatory or optional is to those involved in choosing a format? And which seems more "consumer friendly"?
How important do you think the issue of whether Managed Copy is mandatory or optional is to those involved in choosing a format? And which seems more "consumer friendly"?
I think that the other points are more important than whether or not it is mandatory.
If I can make a copy that I can only use on one machine, and I have to be on the internet at the time so that they can see what I'm doing when I want to make my copy so that they can charge me almost as much as I paid for the original, then it's worth crap.
Can you tell us that you don't have to be connected when putting it into a computer so that it can "phone home" the way XP does?
I'd rather not be able to make a copy, which almost no one does now anyway, then having them know what I'm doing as a condition.
Almost nobody makes backup copies of movies. Streaming it over a network? Right.
The only reason MS wants that is so they can control what you do with it rather than the studios. They were so eager to get the 360 out before Sony that they screwed up, and didn't wait for an HD DVD drive. Now they're frustrated because BlueRay apparently MIGHT not let them stream to the 360.
That's all this mandatory copy is all about. It's not for the consumer. It's so that MS and Intel can control what goes through the computer.
They?ve already started showing off prototypes, and now Panasonic is announcing its Blu-ray optical drives for both notebooks and desktops will go into production in March 2006. They?ll also be shipping Blu-ray discs in both 25- and 50-GB capacities around the same time. Four types of discs will be produced, single- and dual-layer (25 and 50GB, respectively) recordable and rewriteables, all at 2X speed.
They?ve already started showing off prototypes, and now Panasonic is announcing its Blu-ray optical drives for both notebooks and desktops will go into production in March 2006. They?ll also be shipping Blu-ray discs in both 25- and 50-GB capacities around the same time. Four types of discs will be produced, single- and dual-layer (25 and 50GB, respectively) recordable and rewriteables, all at 2X speed.
Speculation continued to grow Wednesday that Warner Bros. was about to defect from Toshiba's HD DVD camp and join Sony's Blu-ray, a move that could be fatal for Toshiba's high-definition DVD format. Business Week magazine pointed out in its online edition that Warner Bros. has assembled the Hollywood studios that had backed Toshiba's format, including corporate sibling New Line, Paramount, and Universal. Paramount defected last weekend, and New Line is likely to go wherever Warner Bros. goes. Paramount held out the possibility of releases its films in both formats, and Warner Bros. is likely to do the same, reports said. Word of Warner's possible move spread quickly at the CEATEC 2005 electronics exhibition in Japan, the Associated Press reported. AP quoted an executive with Matsushita, which backs Blu-ray, as saying, "The format war is coming to a close."
I find it interesting that Blu-Ray fans are supporting the format that wants them to have the least amount of flexibility.
AACS encryption isn't enough for the BDA hey want BD+ on top. Managed Copy is an excellent feature that suits BDROM yet the BDA is noncommital.
Yet I hear cheers from many that seem impervious to these issues. What Fox, Disney etc want is wholly different than what you want.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
Well, for me I'm supporting what I think will be the winner, simply because I want a winner and I want it now. The sooner something happens, the sooner it will fail or take off, prices will come down, equipment options will increase, costs will come down, media library will grow, costs will come down.....
I don't support BRD for what it is, I just see it in the lead, factor in PS 3, spit on M$ and and get used to the idea the BRD will be the one. I just hope it's the one for everyone and is affordable, replaces DVD and doesn't become a niche, etc.
30GB DL HD-DVD= 4.76 hours of HD content. 3 hrs easy with Dolby or DTS lossles audio. Put the extras on a second disc or hybrid DVD side.
Triple Layer 45GB will be there for 2nd generation HD-DVD barring any production problems. I wouldn't be surprised to see TL 45GB and BD DL 50GB ship within 6 months of each other in volume.
Hey I'll take both formats if the price is right.
I know that this is going backward in responding, but I would like to point out that there is no triple layer being considered.
The industry, in a burst of enthusium years ago, spoke of CD's with two, three, and as many as ten layers. The same with DVD. They never came out with them because it's simply too difficult and expensive past two.
They haven't even mentioned three here.
So we're talking about 1 sided single layer
15GB=HD DVD, 25GB BlueRay
1 sided dual layer
30GB=HD DVD, 50GB BlueRay
2 sided dual layer
60GB HD DVD, 100GB BlueRay
Nothing else has been suggested.
If I use it as a back up device, I know which I want.
If Warner does capitulate then the battle is indeed over as Warner stands to gain significant royalties from HD-DVD just as they did with DVD.
I think this would signify that the content providers are unanimous in their desire to protect their assets. They don't give a rip about the exta space of Blu-Ray they are more in to the extra DRM (BD+).
Comments
Originally posted by hmurchison
Toshiba is actually showing working HD-DVD drives in laptops
My emphasis added.
Also as far as some odds bandied about in this thread. There is no way either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray has any more than a 10% advantage over the other.
As for Panny with the spincoat...prove it. Frankly many of us AV enthusiasts are tired of reading about BDA advances that aren't backed with empirical evidence.
Well, this should either muddy the waters, or make everything crystal clear.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1868032,00.asp
http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...9074_tc024.htm
Originally posted by marzetta7
Another good article. I can totally see Bill Gates getting fired up...hehehe.
http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...9074_tc024.htm
Yes, very good.
AACS encryption isn't enough for the BDA hey want BD+ on top. Managed Copy is an excellent feature that suits BDROM yet the BDA is noncommital.
Yet I hear cheers from many that seem impervious to these issues. What Fox, Disney etc want is wholly different than what you want.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
The Blu-Ray disc structure has much greater potential for higher capacity discs far exceeding the 5GB difference. Great for box sets of movies and tv series as well as the retailers who value precious shelf space. Great for those who are interested in recording HD programs off TV and I can't imagine many people buying an HDTV set only to record in SD. Great for those interested in portable computer storage too.
Speaking of which, is this a slot-loading Blu-Ray drive I see from Apple's favorite OEM supplier? Why yes it is and it records to BD-R and BD-RE media as well as DVD±R, ±RW and -RAM. They are so far ahead of HD-DVD it's difficult to image why we are still discussing it.
Originally posted by hmurchison
I find it interesting that Blu-Ray fans are supporting the format that wants them to have the least amount of flexibility.
AACS encryption isn't enough for the BDA hey want BD+ on top. Managed Copy is an excellent feature that suits BDROM yet the BDA is noncommital.
Yet I hear cheers from many that seem impervious to these issues. What Fox, Disney etc want is wholly different than what you want.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
This is not about what we want or don't want, in fact - I doubt that there are any "blu-ray fans" here (on the other hand, you are definitely a HD_DVD fan).
We just see the chess pieces on the board, and are predicting a checkmate that is totally out of consumer control.
This is not about what we want or don't want, in fact - I doubt that there are any "blu-ray fans" here (on the other hand, you are definitely a HD_DVD fan). We just see the chess pieces on the board, and are predicting a checkmate that is totally out of consumer control.
agreed. from a personal view i like the word bluRay and have some emotional affinity for sony (i'm looking at a nice sony 17" lcd as i type this). so while my basic sensory perceptions have a "curious and interested" feeling about bluRay more than HDDVD which sounds lame, my heart and mind tells me that like you said, we are really just watching from the sidelines..... or, just to spice up the chess analogy further, it's like we're hanging out at compton LA behind semi-bulletproof glass watching a shootout between two rival gangs. you wanna join but you know you're going to get hurt along the way.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
Managed Copy, emphasis on "Managed". I just don't trust anything with DRM enough to consider it much better than something else with DRM. Therefore, giving it up is no big deal either.
While I think the situation is far from clear, the technologies are very similar and I'm not a "fan" of either, personally I would welcome a Blu-Ray win. Why?
- I want the PS3's standard to win because I might buy one. (Okay, this is a nonsensical reason because I'm not going to buy the DRM-laced movie disks anyway. Unless, of course, the PS3 can boot to Linux, whereupon it would be a good thing the PS3 supported the best data media.)
- I want the PS3 to beat a possible XBox360HD. There's no way it's a good thing the convicted monopolist gets a foot in in another market and (this part of their plans is clear) immediately uses it to prop up their desktop monopoly. Unlike the XBox, the XBox360 is designed as an extension of Windows (Media Center).
- The initial added capacity + potential for lots more.
- A more honest whole-new name and brand, instead of play-it-safe name recognition that has the potential to screw an unwary buyer.
I don't see the point of non-Sony Blu-ray players, since they are bound to be near $1,000. Why buy that when you could get a $400 PS3?
Originally posted by hmurchison
I find it interesting that Blu-Ray fans are supporting the format that wants them to have the least amount of flexibility.
AACS encryption isn't enough for the BDA hey want BD+ on top. Managed Copy is an excellent feature that suits BDROM yet the BDA is noncommital.
Yet I hear cheers from many that seem impervious to these issues. What Fox, Disney etc want is wholly different than what you want.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
We don't know what that exactly means yet.
According to what I've read about it, allowing a copy will be mandatory, unlike with BlueRay where the entertainment companies will decide whether or not to allow it, both as individual companies, and on an issue by issue basis.
Now that sounds good for HD DVD, but we don't know if they will charge for that copy, and if they do, how much. We also don't know what they will allow us to do with that copy. They can control its usage as iTunes and other music services do. It might just be allowed for backup.
With BlueRay, if they allow a copy it might be allowed to be transferred over a network, or loaded to another drive.
Again, who knows?
I can just say that the 10GB (it's not 5) extra per single layer, and the 20 for dual layer disks sounds good. Double sided BlueRay disks will go to 100GB, but HD DVD only 60GB. That sounds good as well. We don't know about it costing more, only HD DVD backers are saying that it will.
Originally posted by melgross
According to what I've read about it, allowing a copy will be mandatory, unlike with BlueRay where the entertainment companies will decide whether or not to allow it, both as individual companies, and on an issue by issue basis.
How important do you think the issue of whether Managed Copy is mandatory or optional is to those involved in choosing a format? And which seems more "consumer friendly"?
Originally posted by wmf
Will managed copy even exist on OS X?
I don't see the point of non-Sony Blu-ray players, since they are bound to be near $1,000. Why buy that when you could get a $400 PS3?
The point is the same as why many buy dedicated DVD players instead of a PS2.
Originally posted by sjk
How important do you think the issue of whether Managed Copy is mandatory or optional is to those involved in choosing a format? And which seems more "consumer friendly"?
I think that the other points are more important than whether or not it is mandatory.
If I can make a copy that I can only use on one machine, and I have to be on the internet at the time so that they can see what I'm doing when I want to make my copy so that they can charge me almost as much as I paid for the original, then it's worth crap.
Can you tell us that you don't have to be connected when putting it into a computer so that it can "phone home" the way XP does?
I'd rather not be able to make a copy, which almost no one does now anyway, then having them know what I'm doing as a condition.
Almost nobody makes backup copies of movies. Streaming it over a network? Right.
The only reason MS wants that is so they can control what you do with it rather than the studios. They were so eager to get the 360 out before Sony that they screwed up, and didn't wait for an HD DVD drive. Now they're frustrated because BlueRay apparently MIGHT not let them stream to the 360.
That's all this mandatory copy is all about. It's not for the consumer. It's so that MS and Intel can control what goes through the computer.
They?ve already started showing off prototypes, and now Panasonic is announcing its Blu-ray optical drives for both notebooks and desktops will go into production in March 2006. They?ll also be shipping Blu-ray discs in both 25- and 50-GB capacities around the same time. Four types of discs will be produced, single- and dual-layer (25 and 50GB, respectively) recordable and rewriteables, all at 2X speed.
Originally posted by JLL
From Engadget:
They?ve already started showing off prototypes, and now Panasonic is announcing its Blu-ray optical drives for both notebooks and desktops will go into production in March 2006. They?ll also be shipping Blu-ray discs in both 25- and 50-GB capacities around the same time. Four types of discs will be produced, single- and dual-layer (25 and 50GB, respectively) recordable and rewriteables, all at 2X speed.
I reported this earlier.
Originally posted by melgross
I reported this earlier.
Sorry
Is Warner About To Join Blu-Ray Camp?
Speculation continued to grow Wednesday that Warner Bros. was about to defect from Toshiba's HD DVD camp and join Sony's Blu-ray, a move that could be fatal for Toshiba's high-definition DVD format. Business Week magazine pointed out in its online edition that Warner Bros. has assembled the Hollywood studios that had backed Toshiba's format, including corporate sibling New Line, Paramount, and Universal. Paramount defected last weekend, and New Line is likely to go wherever Warner Bros. goes. Paramount held out the possibility of releases its films in both formats, and Warner Bros. is likely to do the same, reports said. Word of Warner's possible move spread quickly at the CEATEC 2005 electronics exhibition in Japan, the Associated Press reported. AP quoted an executive with Matsushita, which backs Blu-ray, as saying, "The format war is coming to a close."
Looks like HD-DVD is sinking.
Originally posted by hmurchison
I find it interesting that Blu-Ray fans are supporting the format that wants them to have the least amount of flexibility.
AACS encryption isn't enough for the BDA hey want BD+ on top. Managed Copy is an excellent feature that suits BDROM yet the BDA is noncommital.
Yet I hear cheers from many that seem impervious to these issues. What Fox, Disney etc want is wholly different than what you want.
Is an additonal 5GB worth giving up Managed Copy or potentially pay more money? I guess that's a question for each person to decide.
Well, for me I'm supporting what I think will be the winner, simply because I want a winner and I want it now. The sooner something happens, the sooner it will fail or take off, prices will come down, equipment options will increase, costs will come down, media library will grow, costs will come down.....
I don't support BRD for what it is, I just see it in the lead, factor in PS 3, spit on M$ and and get used to the idea the BRD will be the one. I just hope it's the one for everyone and is affordable, replaces DVD and doesn't become a niche, etc.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Hmmm let's see
Say VC-1/AVC is VBR 14Mbps
14Mbps * 60 seconds= 840Mbps per minute
840Mbps * 60 minutes = 50400 Mbps per hour
50400 / 8= 6300 MB per hour
assuming they use 1GB= 1000MB
6.3GB per hour
30GB DL HD-DVD= 4.76 hours of HD content. 3 hrs easy with Dolby or DTS lossles audio. Put the extras on a second disc or hybrid DVD side.
Triple Layer 45GB will be there for 2nd generation HD-DVD barring any production problems. I wouldn't be surprised to see TL 45GB and BD DL 50GB ship within 6 months of each other in volume.
Hey I'll take both formats if the price is right.
I know that this is going backward in responding, but I would like to point out that there is no triple layer being considered.
The industry, in a burst of enthusium years ago, spoke of CD's with two, three, and as many as ten layers. The same with DVD. They never came out with them because it's simply too difficult and expensive past two.
They haven't even mentioned three here.
So we're talking about 1 sided single layer
15GB=HD DVD, 25GB BlueRay
1 sided dual layer
30GB=HD DVD, 50GB BlueRay
2 sided dual layer
60GB HD DVD, 100GB BlueRay
Nothing else has been suggested.
If I use it as a back up device, I know which I want.
I think this would signify that the content providers are unanimous in their desire to protect their assets. They don't give a rip about the exta space of Blu-Ray they are more in to the extra DRM (BD+).