Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.
Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?
Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).
(not a rhetorical question.. genuinely wondering. If I get a chance I'll look myself, just figure you must know to have such a self assured answer)
edit: BTW - no argument that Apple could 3G technologies are getting smaller & more power efficient - Apple could release a 3G iPhone in the next few months of the same size. I'm just saying that in the balance of designing the iPhone, a year ago Apple said 3G wasn't worth it, mostly (or all) due to extra size.
Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?
Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).
These expensive, oft compared phones to the iPhone also don't have 3G:
— LG Prada KE850
— RIM BlackBerry Curve 8300
— RIM BlackBerry Pearl 8100
Note: If there are newer ones that have 3G, then please post them. I'm merely posting info based on data ferreted from Google searches. Please don't mention the Meizu M8, it doesn't exist.
I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.
There is no room left inside. That's been documented.
But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.
Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.
There is no room left inside. That's been documented.
But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.
Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.
This goes for GPS as well.
My comment about "current dimensions" was regarding maintaining the same battery life with a 3G chipset, as aopposed to making it thicker with a larger battery or keeping it the same size while reducing the usage time. I have no doubt that a 3G chipset could be wedged in there... especially now.
Personally, I'd take one three times as thick and heavy if it meant that it would include 3G and the additional space would be all battery. I rarely use my iPhone for calls, it's all Mail and Safari.
Sidenote: For the first time I'm feeling the woes of not having Flash on the iPhone. I'm into FaceBook's Sracbulous game but can't play it on the iPhone. It's the perfect game while roaming.
Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe. But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.
Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?
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I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.
Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.
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Poor SMS
You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?
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No MMS
I don't care
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Poor camera
I've got a real camera and don't care.
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No Video capture
Video recordings from phones look like crap.
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No voice recording.
I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.
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Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.
Hhmm, you have to be at the very tip of the pyramid on Maslows hierarchy of needs to get to a phone causing you that much problem.
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Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.
At this point Apple does not expect to sell and likely could not supply 18 million phones a quarter. The few hundred thousand only reflect the number of iPhone customers on O2, Orange, and T-Mobile. This numbers does not reflect over all iPhone sales.
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90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition.
About half of the iPhones are in the USA.
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You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader.
Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.
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Apple managed to release a Zune.
The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.
Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.
I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.
Actually, I don't even remember reading such a response. I must've gotten bored of your 'Apple marketing department' talking points in whichever thread that was and wandered away. Sorry.
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The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.
The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone
The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.
The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.
This all makes a huge difference in battery life.
You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.
And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.
One thing we can say pretty much for certain is that lower power-draw 3G chipsets have already showed up. If you wish to be a stickler for a (non-)apples to apples comparison, note that the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time compared to the Blackjack I's 3 hours. And the screen size, cpu, and other power-using functionality isn't hugely different between those two models.
The one major difference is that the 'Jack II has about 40% more battery capacity, but that alone doesn't seem to come near explaining such a huge improvement in talk time (a 133% improvement over the original Blackjack).
So, where is the rest of the improvement coming from? Well, a more power-efficient chipset/better power management would seem to be about the only thing that could reasonably explain it... unless Samsung found a way to stuff an incredibly tiny hamster and treadmill into the case.
Its funny... I remember when defenders of Apple's 2.5G strategy said, back at the US launch, "3G? You do realize that 3G smartphones only have 2-3 hours of battery life, right?". Well, not anymore, baby.
So, 3G chipsets have already gotten better power consumption-wise, as we can see, and it only took a few short months after the US launch. I think we can safely lay to rest any fears of a ginormous brick of a 3G iPhone, and stop using the battery life boogeyman as an excuse.
Even Jobs has said that he expects that energy efficient-enough 3G chipsets will be available later this year... though I suspect that he may be fudging that a bit, if I'm parsing my Steve-speak correctly (and my batting average there has been pretty good).
After all, Samsung has been enjoying the benefits of more efficient 3G chipsets since at least November (when the 'Jack II was released). You'd have to think that if Samsung could do it, Apple could too... except perhaps for the fact that Apple honestly thought they could skate through the Euro launch with 2.5G.
It's sad to see the poor Euro sales disabusing Apple of that notion... and me out of some of my stock value. \
[Re: poor iPhone SMS]You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?
Wow, that's quite a backpedal/reversal, coming from someone who's stated to me time and time again how worried they were that all the features on the iPhone be as user-friendly as possible, and who used that as an excuse why the iPhone has so many missing features (like MMS, voice-dialing, etc).
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I don't care [about no MMS].
Yeah, well, the market doesn't care that you don't care, and they're voting with their pocketbooks over in Europe.
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I've got a real camera and don't care [that the iPhone's camera isn't great]
Again, the Euro market doesn't care that you don't care. Other high-end phones over there routinely have 3.2 or 5.0 megapixel cameras, and the iPhone isn't competing well there.
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Video recordings from phones look like crap.
Wow, talk about a defeatist outlook. Aside from the fact that there are a few high-end phones whose video recordings don't look like crap, wouldn't a proper attitude be that, if something is broken, Apple would be a company who'd be able to fix it?
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I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.
I don't see that one as a dealbreaker, but it is something that you see even on cheap phones nowadays.
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Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.
Even so, it is a pretty small portion of the market. Even with the recent growth spurt, smartphone sales are only 11% of the US market.
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The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.
Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.
In the US, you're right, they're not the same. But in Europe, yeah, the iPhone is kind of a Zune, unfortunately. \
Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?
Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.
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Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.
I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.
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You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?
How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone? Write the whole thing down with a pencil then retype it and send?
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I don't care [about no MMS]
Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.
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I've got a real camera and don't care.
So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.
The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.
Great, you take my point.
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I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.
Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you. An 'anecdotal few' that love their iPhones is great, but doesn't count for much in the larger scheme of things. Euro sales are disappointing, no matter how you slice it. So what's not to get?
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What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.
Wow.... you've been told again and again that its all about user experience (and I find it hard to imagine that even Jobs himself would disagree in the end, since he's all about user experience, unless aesthetics or dollar signs get in the way), and you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?
Teno, teno, teno... time for you to enroll in the TBaggins School of Remedial Logic for the Terminally Obtuse. The sad thing is, I think even you know you're full of it on this one.
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That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.
Sure. But the problem is, membership in the latter group seems quite a bit larger than in the former group, judging by the only metric Apple truly cares about... sales.
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The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.
So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple.
And of course, most of those 4 million sales weren't in Europe, too.
Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want.
You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.
I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.
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And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.
iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.
Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.
I think its fine that you love Apple products. But you have to put this all into context. Apple has been in the mobile phone business for 8 months, Nokia has been in the mobile phone business for over 20 years.
Jobs has said they will add software and design new phones. Which means if you really want an iPhone but don't want the current one. You'll have to wait patiently until they build the one you want.
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I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.
These days email is less and less text based. Often graphics and pictures are as integral to the information as the text.
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How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone?
Cut and paste would pretty much solve these problems. Apple has acknowledged this and said they are working on it.
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Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.
On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.
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So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.
The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.
I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.
Cool.
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iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.
I wonder, though, if the difference is as big as you make it out to be.
For instance, in notebooks, which, after all, have a much larger display than the iPhone (and unlike the iPhone, it's always on- the iPhone's cuts out during a call), the display is roughly 30 percent of the power draw. A lot, but far from the whole enchilada.
And the CPU? Well, is the iPhone's cpu always running full blast? I doubt it is during a call, since even much slower cpus seem adequate to that task.
Your points are well taken, but even in a 'Jack I to 'Jack II comparison, which is more your style, we can see that 3G chipsets have already gotten better on power. Given that, I just wonder what the hold up is over at Apple, since the main excuse Steve-o gives for no 3G yet is battery life, and Apple of course would LOVE to have its 3G model out ASAP, for a timely Asian launch and to improve thus-far poor Euro sales. \
Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you.
The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.
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you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?
I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.
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So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple. Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want.
No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.
I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.
Some of that may be driven by the structure of the plans in question, but I would agree that ppl are browsing more on the iPhone than competing smartphones. Which is to be expected, since Safari, a real web browser, is a nicer user experience than your typical smartphone minibrowser. I've told you this before.
What you're missing, again, is that that's only half the battle... you still need a good connection to have a truly great user experience, and GPRS ain't it, unless you think a 28.8 modem is a great user experience.
iPhone data usage is high on the iPhone even without 3G? Great. But with 3G, data usage on the iPhone would be insanely great.
To think that 3G won't have a big impact on data usage is patently absurd. It'd be like saying that dial-up users use as much data as broadband users. They don't, both for reasons of practicality and of user experience. But I guess you can argue the point and look nuts. I'd kind of like that, as its been a rough day thus far and I could use the laugh.
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On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.
Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number, and you've already got that info. Even with email systems that are based on your phone number ('[email protected]', for example), you usually still need to know what carrier said person is on, and again, who the eff knows that for everyone you know? And who the eff would want to?
The market's already spoken on this one, and it seems to like MMS, for practical reasons. But I guess Apple can keep trying to argue that email is the way to go, and keep losing sales. Ugh. \
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The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.
And the few ppl who care about getting the absolute highest-quality possible shot, bar none, will go with a seperate device for taking pictures. But everyone else will go, "Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone? After all, I am certainly PAYING enough for it. And I thought the idea of the iPhone was to be a multifunction device in the first place... iPod, Internet, and phone, all in one. Even your commercials hype that point. So NOW you're telling me 'Go carry a seperate camera?!?'. What exactly have you been smoking???".
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No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.
The 'missing' iPhones are either unlocked (and thus distributed all over the world, not just in Europe) or are in inventory somewhere, whether in official channels or the gray market.
What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there." Because even if you add in unlockers and inventory, as Apple DID when it trotted out its '4 million sold' (actually, shipped) sales figure, Apple is still well below pace to hit its '10 million in 12 months' goal.
The Asian launch should help some, if its timely enough, as could the launches in Italy and Spain (though it should be noted that Italy is even more into 3G than the rest of Europe)... but at the same time, the iPhone's biggest market, the US, is entering recession. Not good.
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The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.
LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well.
Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want. \
The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.
That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.
PS: haha Nice metaphor.
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Originally Posted by TBaggins
Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.
The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.
That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.
Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.
I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.
"A survey conducted by online usability and accessibility expert Webcredible has identified email as the most desired service for mobile phone users. When asked 'Which service would you use on your mobile/cell phone if speed & quality weren't an issue?', 33% stated that email would be their number one priority. Social networking followed closely behind with 25% of the votes.."
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"Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone?
Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.
That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.
You've got to think longer term than two months, though.
What's the revenue delta, long-term, between the iPhone walking into Europe with 3G and MMS and the locals going fairly crazy for it, and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe? How much does that hurt the brand and future Euro sales? Hard to quantify, but I'm sure Apple didn't count on this reception.
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The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.
Yeah, but phone numbers are portable (when you change carriers, your number stays the same), email addys are not, always... say when someone changes a job. MMS is just more convenient for a lot of ppl, since its phone number-based and that's the only piece of info you need.
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That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.
Great. But I think you'll agree that a lot of ppl who send pics use MMS, even if you yourself do not. Ditto the camera.
What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there."
There are more iPhones being used in Europe than the 90,000 being used on Orange France, or the 190,000 being used on O2 UK, or the 70,000 being used on T-Mobile Germany.
These numbers do not reflect the total demand for the iPhone in Europe only the demand for iPhone use on Orange, O2, and T-Mobile.
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LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well.
I'm not sure how you can make the Zune sound any better than it is. It did not make 100 million in 2 months.
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Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want.
What's funny about this statement is that you are really the one who is only looking at this one way. You want to say Euro sales were disappointing and that's it, nothing else. Its highly unlikely any other phone by itself can or has sold 330,000 units and made its manufacturer nearly 1.5 million in one quarter.
I've said Euro sales are not exceptional. I've said they are likely in line with what most other phones are selling. The part where we differ is as long as everyone is making a healthy profit they are all satisfied. You don't want that to be satisfactory until they sell some certain amount.
I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.
You're reaching.
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Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.
You've got to think longer term than two months, though.
What's the revenue delta, long-term, between the iPhone walking into Europe with 3G and MMS and the locals going fairly crazy for it, and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe? How much does that hurt the brand and future Euro sales? Hard to quantify, but I'm sure Apple didn't count on this reception.
I don't think it hurts the brand at all to sell an extra half million devices. It's a stopgate that will make a year's worth of revenue in the interim and get people accustomed to the iPhone's UI. How often are these boards filled with people compaining that Apple selling x in the US.
When a 3G iPhone comes along I think it will be a bigger success than the 2.75G iPhone was in the US, even if it doesn't have GPS or MMS. Though, as previously stated, it needs MMS. The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.
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Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.
Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?
Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).
(not a rhetorical question.. genuinely wondering. If I get a chance I'll look myself, just figure you must know to have such a self assured answer)
edit: BTW - no argument that Apple could 3G technologies are getting smaller & more power efficient - Apple could release a 3G iPhone in the next few months of the same size. I'm just saying that in the balance of designing the iPhone, a year ago Apple said 3G wasn't worth it, mostly (or all) due to extra size.
Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?
Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).
These expensive, oft compared phones to the iPhone also don't have 3G:Note: If there are newer ones that have 3G, then please post them. I'm merely posting info based on data ferreted from Google searches. Please don't mention the Meizu M8, it doesn't exist.
I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.
There is no room left inside. That's been documented.
But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.
Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.
This goes for GPS as well.
There is no room left inside. That's been documented.
But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.
Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.
This goes for GPS as well.
My comment about "current dimensions" was regarding maintaining the same battery life with a 3G chipset, as aopposed to making it thicker with a larger battery or keeping it the same size while reducing the usage time. I have no doubt that a 3G chipset could be wedged in there... especially now.
Personally, I'd take one three times as thick and heavy if it meant that it would include 3G and the additional space would be all battery. I rarely use my iPhone for calls, it's all Mail and Safari.
Sidenote: For the first time I'm feeling the woes of not having Flash on the iPhone. I'm into FaceBook's Sracbulous game but can't play it on the iPhone. It's the perfect game while roaming.
Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe. But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.
Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?
I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.
Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.
Poor SMS
You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?
No MMS
I don't care
Poor camera
I've got a real camera and don't care.
No Video capture
Video recordings from phones look like crap.
No voice recording.
I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.
Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.
Hhmm, you have to be at the very tip of the pyramid on Maslows hierarchy of needs to get to a phone causing you that much problem.
Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.
At this point Apple does not expect to sell and likely could not supply 18 million phones a quarter. The few hundred thousand only reflect the number of iPhone customers on O2, Orange, and T-Mobile. This numbers does not reflect over all iPhone sales.
90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition.
About half of the iPhones are in the USA.
You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader.
Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.
Apple managed to release a Zune.
The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.
Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.
I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.
Actually, I don't even remember reading such a response. I must've gotten bored of your 'Apple marketing department' talking points in whichever thread that was and wandered away. Sorry.
The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.
The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone
The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.
The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.
This all makes a huge difference in battery life.
You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.
And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.
One thing we can say pretty much for certain is that lower power-draw 3G chipsets have already showed up. If you wish to be a stickler for a (non-)apples to apples comparison, note that the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time compared to the Blackjack I's 3 hours. And the screen size, cpu, and other power-using functionality isn't hugely different between those two models.
The one major difference is that the 'Jack II has about 40% more battery capacity, but that alone doesn't seem to come near explaining such a huge improvement in talk time (a 133% improvement over the original Blackjack).
So, where is the rest of the improvement coming from? Well, a more power-efficient chipset/better power management would seem to be about the only thing that could reasonably explain it... unless Samsung found a way to stuff an incredibly tiny hamster and treadmill into the case.
Its funny... I remember when defenders of Apple's 2.5G strategy said, back at the US launch, "3G? You do realize that 3G smartphones only have 2-3 hours of battery life, right?". Well, not anymore, baby.
So, 3G chipsets have already gotten better power consumption-wise, as we can see, and it only took a few short months after the US launch. I think we can safely lay to rest any fears of a ginormous brick of a 3G iPhone, and stop using the battery life boogeyman as an excuse.
Even Jobs has said that he expects that energy efficient-enough 3G chipsets will be available later this year... though I suspect that he may be fudging that a bit, if I'm parsing my Steve-speak correctly (and my batting average there has been pretty good).
After all, Samsung has been enjoying the benefits of more efficient 3G chipsets since at least November (when the 'Jack II was released). You'd have to think that if Samsung could do it, Apple could too... except perhaps for the fact that Apple honestly thought they could skate through the Euro launch with 2.5G.
It's sad to see the poor Euro sales disabusing Apple of that notion... and me out of some of my stock value.
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[Re: poor iPhone SMS]You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?
Wow, that's quite a backpedal/reversal, coming from someone who's stated to me time and time again how worried they were that all the features on the iPhone be as user-friendly as possible, and who used that as an excuse why the iPhone has so many missing features (like MMS, voice-dialing, etc).
I don't care [about no MMS].
Yeah, well, the market doesn't care that you don't care, and they're voting with their pocketbooks over in Europe.
I've got a real camera and don't care [that the iPhone's camera isn't great]
Again, the Euro market doesn't care that you don't care. Other high-end phones over there routinely have 3.2 or 5.0 megapixel cameras, and the iPhone isn't competing well there.
Video recordings from phones look like crap.
Wow, talk about a defeatist outlook. Aside from the fact that there are a few high-end phones whose video recordings don't look like crap, wouldn't a proper attitude be that, if something is broken, Apple would be a company who'd be able to fix it?
I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.
I don't see that one as a dealbreaker, but it is something that you see even on cheap phones nowadays.
Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.
Even so, it is a pretty small portion of the market. Even with the recent growth spurt, smartphone sales are only 11% of the US market.
The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.
Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.
In the US, you're right, they're not the same. But in Europe, yeah, the iPhone is kind of a Zune, unfortunately.
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Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?
Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.
Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.
I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.
You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?
How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone? Write the whole thing down with a pencil then retype it and send?
I don't care [about no MMS]
Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.
I've got a real camera and don't care.
So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.
The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.
Great, you take my point.
I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.
Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you. An 'anecdotal few' that love their iPhones is great, but doesn't count for much in the larger scheme of things. Euro sales are disappointing, no matter how you slice it. So what's not to get?
What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.
Wow.... you've been told again and again that its all about user experience (and I find it hard to imagine that even Jobs himself would disagree in the end, since he's all about user experience, unless aesthetics or dollar signs get in the way), and you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?
Teno, teno, teno... time for you to enroll in the TBaggins School of Remedial Logic for the Terminally Obtuse. The sad thing is, I think even you know you're full of it on this one.
That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.
Sure. But the problem is, membership in the latter group seems quite a bit larger than in the former group, judging by the only metric Apple truly cares about... sales.
The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.
So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple.
And of course, most of those 4 million sales weren't in Europe, too.
Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want.
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You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.
I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.
And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.
iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.
Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.
I think its fine that you love Apple products. But you have to put this all into context. Apple has been in the mobile phone business for 8 months, Nokia has been in the mobile phone business for over 20 years.
Jobs has said they will add software and design new phones. Which means if you really want an iPhone but don't want the current one. You'll have to wait patiently until they build the one you want.
I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.
These days email is less and less text based. Often graphics and pictures are as integral to the information as the text.
How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone?
Cut and paste would pretty much solve these problems. Apple has acknowledged this and said they are working on it.
Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.
On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.
So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.
The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.
I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.
Cool.
iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.
I wonder, though, if the difference is as big as you make it out to be.
For instance, in notebooks, which, after all, have a much larger display than the iPhone (and unlike the iPhone, it's always on- the iPhone's cuts out during a call), the display is roughly 30 percent of the power draw. A lot, but far from the whole enchilada.
And the CPU? Well, is the iPhone's cpu always running full blast? I doubt it is during a call, since even much slower cpus seem adequate to that task.
Your points are well taken, but even in a 'Jack I to 'Jack II comparison, which is more your style, we can see that 3G chipsets have already gotten better on power. Given that, I just wonder what the hold up is over at Apple, since the main excuse Steve-o gives for no 3G yet is battery life, and Apple of course would LOVE to have its 3G model out ASAP, for a timely Asian launch and to improve thus-far poor Euro sales.
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Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you.
The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.
you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?
I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.
So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple. Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want.
No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.
I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.
Some of that may be driven by the structure of the plans in question, but I would agree that ppl are browsing more on the iPhone than competing smartphones. Which is to be expected, since Safari, a real web browser, is a nicer user experience than your typical smartphone minibrowser. I've told you this before.
What you're missing, again, is that that's only half the battle... you still need a good connection to have a truly great user experience, and GPRS ain't it, unless you think a 28.8 modem is a great user experience.
iPhone data usage is high on the iPhone even without 3G? Great. But with 3G, data usage on the iPhone would be insanely great.
To think that 3G won't have a big impact on data usage is patently absurd. It'd be like saying that dial-up users use as much data as broadband users. They don't, both for reasons of practicality and of user experience. But I guess you can argue the point and look nuts. I'd kind of like that, as its been a rough day thus far and I could use the laugh.
On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.
Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number, and you've already got that info. Even with email systems that are based on your phone number ('[email protected]', for example), you usually still need to know what carrier said person is on, and again, who the eff knows that for everyone you know? And who the eff would want to?
The market's already spoken on this one, and it seems to like MMS, for practical reasons. But I guess Apple can keep trying to argue that email is the way to go, and keep losing sales. Ugh.
The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.
And the few ppl who care about getting the absolute highest-quality possible shot, bar none, will go with a seperate device for taking pictures. But everyone else will go, "Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone? After all, I am certainly PAYING enough for it. And I thought the idea of the iPhone was to be a multifunction device in the first place... iPod, Internet, and phone, all in one. Even your commercials hype that point. So NOW you're telling me 'Go carry a seperate camera?!?'. What exactly have you been smoking???".
No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.
The 'missing' iPhones are either unlocked (and thus distributed all over the world, not just in Europe) or are in inventory somewhere, whether in official channels or the gray market.
What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there." Because even if you add in unlockers and inventory, as Apple DID when it trotted out its '4 million sold' (actually, shipped) sales figure, Apple is still well below pace to hit its '10 million in 12 months' goal.
The Asian launch should help some, if its timely enough, as could the launches in Italy and Spain (though it should be noted that Italy is even more into 3G than the rest of Europe)... but at the same time, the iPhone's biggest market, the US, is entering recession. Not good.
The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.
LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well.
Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want.
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The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.
That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.
PS: haha Nice metaphor.
Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.
The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.
That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.
Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.
I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.
"A survey conducted by online usability and accessibility expert Webcredible has identified email as the most desired service for mobile phone users. When asked 'Which service would you use on your mobile/cell phone if speed & quality weren't an issue?', 33% stated that email would be their number one priority. Social networking followed closely behind with 25% of the votes.."
"Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone?
Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.
That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.
You've got to think longer term than two months, though.
What's the revenue delta, long-term, between the iPhone walking into Europe with 3G and MMS and the locals going fairly crazy for it, and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe? How much does that hurt the brand and future Euro sales? Hard to quantify, but I'm sure Apple didn't count on this reception.
The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.
Yeah, but phone numbers are portable (when you change carriers, your number stays the same), email addys are not, always... say when someone changes a job. MMS is just more convenient for a lot of ppl, since its phone number-based and that's the only piece of info you need.
That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.
Great. But I think you'll agree that a lot of ppl who send pics use MMS, even if you yourself do not. Ditto the camera.
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What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there."
There are more iPhones being used in Europe than the 90,000 being used on Orange France, or the 190,000 being used on O2 UK, or the 70,000 being used on T-Mobile Germany.
These numbers do not reflect the total demand for the iPhone in Europe only the demand for iPhone use on Orange, O2, and T-Mobile.
LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well.
I'm not sure how you can make the Zune sound any better than it is. It did not make 100 million in 2 months.
Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want.
What's funny about this statement is that you are really the one who is only looking at this one way. You want to say Euro sales were disappointing and that's it, nothing else. Its highly unlikely any other phone by itself can or has sold 330,000 units and made its manufacturer nearly 1.5 million in one quarter.
I've said Euro sales are not exceptional. I've said they are likely in line with what most other phones are selling. The part where we differ is as long as everyone is making a healthy profit they are all satisfied. You don't want that to be satisfactory until they sell some certain amount.
I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.
You're reaching.
Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.
You're really reaching.
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You've got to think longer term than two months, though.
What's the revenue delta, long-term, between the iPhone walking into Europe with 3G and MMS and the locals going fairly crazy for it, and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe? How much does that hurt the brand and future Euro sales? Hard to quantify, but I'm sure Apple didn't count on this reception.
I don't think it hurts the brand at all to sell an extra half million devices. It's a stopgate that will make a year's worth of revenue in the interim and get people accustomed to the iPhone's UI. How often are these boards filled with people compaining that Apple selling x in the US.
When a 3G iPhone comes along I think it will be a bigger success than the 2.75G iPhone was in the US, even if it doesn't have GPS or MMS. Though, as previously stated, it needs MMS. The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.