You've got to think longer term than two months, though.
You have to start somewhere. Apple is thinking beyond its first few months. When the first iPhone was launched Jobs was said they were already working on the next iPhone.
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Yeah, but phone numbers are portable (when you change carriers, your number stays the same), email addys are not, always... say when someone changes a job.
This isn't a huge problem. People don't often change their email. And its simple to change the address in your address book.
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and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe?
You confuse me baggins. How is it reaching to site a survey that show what features people want to use? The point of the entire survey is to show what people want.
People don't generally buy a phone based on how well it takes a picture. Generally the more paramount benchmark is how well can I communicate with it.
What phone is as thin as the iPhone has 8/16Gb of storage and a point and shoot camera attached?
There are more iPhones being used in Europe than the 90,000 being used on Orange France, or the 190,000 being used on O2 UK, or the 70,000 being used on T-Mobile Germany.
Yeah, that's pretty much what "some are unlocked" would tend to mean.
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I'm not sure how you can make the Zune sound any better than it is. It did not make 100 million in 2 months.
Yah, but Microsoft can at least say the Zune hits its sales goal, even as ridiculously low as it was. The iPhone in Europe can't say the same, it missed its' goals, with carrier after carrier and in country after country.
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What's funny about this statement is that you are really the one who is only looking at this one way.
Sure. The 'reality' way.
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You want to say Euro sales were disappointing and that's it, nothing else.
What else would you call missing your targets in all three European launch nations? Miss, miss, and miss. 0 for 3. This is a good thing, to you?
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Its highly unlikely any other phone by itself can or has sold 330,000 units and made its manufacturer nearly 1.5 million in one quarter.
Well, aside from missing its sales goals, is 330k in sales really that great for a phone that is allegedly "five years ahead of the competition" (Jobs' words) in a market that is US-sized and has much higher mobile phone penetration than the US (in some countries, exceeding 100%)? \
I think all the qualifications and factors on BOTH sides of the ledger were considered when making those targets.... and they were still missed. No use trying to spin that fact, it's more important to fix the problem than insist that its not a problem.
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I've said Euro sales are not exceptional.
If by 'not exceptional' you mean lackluster or sub-par, then I'd say you've got it.
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I've said they are likely in line with what most other phones are selling. The part where we differ is as long as everyone is making a healthy profit they are all satisfied. You don't want that to be satisfactory until they sell some certain amount.
I want Apple to be able to hit their worldwide goal (10 million iPhones in 12 months), and to do that, Euro sales are probably going to have to come up some.
We can talk about how Apple "making a profit" in a particular market is enough, but honestly, that's small ball. I think an aggressive, intelligent company can see what it could sell in a particular market if it had the right approach and product for that market, and anything less than that is money left on the table. Quite a LOT of it, in this case, actually.
I don't think it hurts the brand at all to sell an extra half million devices.
I think it does hurt the brand over there to have a much-hyped iPhone launch that ends up being a bit of a yawner. \
You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.
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When a 3G iPhone comes along I think it will be a bigger success than the 2.75G iPhone was in the US, even if it doesn't have GPS or MMS.
I agree that a 3G iPhone will be a sales success in Europe, but I think it may be overly optimistic to expect a 'bigger than US' -sized success. Europe is just a tougher, more sophisticated market, with a lot more options at the high-end of the market.
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Though, as previously stated, it needs MMS. The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.
I think it does hurt the brand over there to have a much-hyped iPhone launch that ends up being a bit of a yawner. \
You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.
While the wireless data hardware is a yawner the UI and multi-touch interface is not. I think the more people play with it the more likely they will to ride out their contract and current phone for a 3G iPhone. I've read more a few "when it's 3G I'll buy one comments" here and elsewhere.
We are going to have to disagree here since there will be no way to quantify if Apple could have made more money in the long run had they held off on releasing the iPhone in the EU and waiting a year to swing deals with Orange, T-Mobile and O2.
Yah, but Microsoft can at least say the Zune hits its sales goal, even as ridiculously low as it was. The iPhone in Europe can't say the same, it missed its' goals, with carrier after carrier and in country after country.
You think Zune hitting its sales goals and making no money are more impressive than the iPhone not hitting its sales goals and making lots of money?
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What else would you call missing your targets in all three European launch nations? Miss, miss, and miss. 0 for 3. This is a good thing, to you?
The point of everyone doing any of this is for money. No one in the financial world is overly concerned about the iPhone and its sales goals because it made money. Sales goals are just a prediction of how much money can be made.
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We can talk about how Apple "making a profit" in a particular market is enough, but honestly, that's small ball. I think an aggressive, intelligent company can see what it could sell in a particular market if it had the right approach and product for that market, and anything less than that is money left on the table. Quite a LOT of it, in this case, actually.
Making a profit is everything. That is the whole reason for doing all of this, not hitting sales goals. You don't have to sell as much as everyone else if you are able to sell your product for more money than they are able.
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If by 'not exceptional' you mean lackluster or sub-par, then I'd say you've got it.
This is only based on hype. iPhone did not live up to its hype. But once it comes down to the reality. The iPhone made Apple lots of money and carriers gained a lot of new subscribers. Its not as sexy as huge sales number but in the end is what truly matters.
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You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.
You are taking this to the extreme, I haven't heard the Euro's saying any of this.
You have to start somewhere. Apple is thinking beyond its first few months. When the first iPhone was launched Jobs was said they were already working on the next iPhone.
Apple was thinking? Well, they were and they weren't. They're working on a new model, which is great, but the part where they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers for much of the Euro market missing?
Yeahhhh... that part wasn't such good thinking, as results have borne out.
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This isn't a huge problem. People don't often change their email. And its simple to change the address in your address book.
You can quibble all you like, but you can't argue ppl into using an alternative technology when they have something that already fills the need and works well for them... in this case, MMS.
Not to mention the inertia factor, as Solip put it:
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The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.
... which is quite true.
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Underwhelmed in comparison to what?
Underwhelmed in comparison to it UK sales targets, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to its German sales target, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to its French sales targets, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to US sales, which they are nowhere even remotely near.
Underwhelmed in comparison to Euro consumers' expectations, which were high due to the iPhone's hype, and then not really met by the actual product, which caused them to do a collective, "That's nice" and then walk on to buy something else.
Are you still ostriching this one, Teno? It is funny.
While the wireless data hardware is a yawner the UI and multi-touch interface is not. I think the more people play with it the more likely they will to ride out their contract and current phone for a 3G iPhone. I've read more a few "when it's 3G I'll buy one comments" here and elsewhere.
We are going to have to disagree here since there will be no way to quantify if Apple could have made more money in the long run had they held off on releasing the iPhone in the EU and waiting a year to swing deals with Orange, T-Mobile and O2.
I don't know that it would've been a year, more like 7 months, perhaps. I think Apple will have a 3G iPhone by June... if they're smart. 3G chipsets that are better on power have been out for a few months already.
I do agree with your "I've read more a few 'when it's 3G I'll buy one' comments" quote. I hear that all the time, both on the 'net and when talking to my European friends. In fact, my new brother-in-law is British... and my brothers and I will be introducing him to the glory that is American tackle football.
They're working on a new model, which is great, but the part where they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers for much of the Euro market missing?
The warmed over model that has made Apple a half a billion in revenue in 8 months. A half billion that was not there last year.
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You can quibble all you like, but you can't argue ppl into using an alternative technology when they have something that already fills the need and works well for them... in this case, MMS.
Well I'm citing survey's made. You are only citing your own opinion.
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Underwhelmed in comparison to it sales targets, which were missed.
You are only looking at that one metric. Sales targets are only a guide and not the important indicator of sales. Once you can look at a product like the Zune and say it met it sales projections but made no money, that pretty much discredits the overall worth of sales projections as a measurement of success. You can only cling to this one thing because it is all you have that supports your assertion that iPhones sales were poor.
You keep dodging and ignoring new mobile subscribers, revenue, and profit (which is what sales projections are meant to measure) because they do not support that iPhone sales were poor. The sales projection show that iPhone sales were not stellar but not necessarily poor either.
The warmed over model that has made Apple a half a billion in revenue in 8 months. A half billion that was not there last year.
Sure. Quite possibly at the cost of a greater sum of revenue in the long-term, far as Europe goes. Though 330k Euro iPhones sold times its asking price is nowhere near "a half a billion" dollars.
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Well I'm citing survey's made. You are only citing your own opinion.
If you honestly believe that anywhere near as many pics are sent via email on cellphones as are sent via MMS, you are smoking some powerful stuff that you should've shared with me.
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You are only looking at that one metric.
I am looking at that metric because I'm an investor, and investors look at metrics like whether a company and its partners miss or make their own sales goals.
The scary part? Companies nearly always put forward goals that are very conservative and which they're sure to make. Yet Apple and its partner carriers still missed said goals. That's bad, regardless the spin.
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You keep dodging and ignoring new mobile subscribers, revenue, and profit (which is what sales projections are meant to measure) because they do not support that iPhone sales were poor. The sales projection show that iPhone sales were not stellar but not necessarily poor either.
More like I keep ignoring your attempts to change the subject. I'm half expecting to see a chart from you about the relative importance of good Zen vibes caused by the iPhone.
Seriously Teno, you'd have a lot more credibility if you'd quit sticking your head in the sand and come out and straight admit, Yes, Euro iPhone sales have been poor, and that should be fixed ASAP. But you'd rather spin, spin, spin than be about the problem and how to resolve it.
Far as 'profitability' goes, well, exactly how much money are we talking about, or are we just pulling stuff out of our hindquarters? I noticed that in the conference call, neither Cook nor Oppenheimer were willing to break out European iPhone sales, much less whether it was profitable or not over there.
Do you have such figures? Exactly how much profit did the iPhone make or not make in Europe, all costs considered? I'm waiting. Notwithstanding, of course, that Apple could certainly make more revenue and more profit, if only the iPhone were doing better in Europe than it is.
But... but... at least the iPhone is PROFITABLE in Europe! I think!
they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers
I blame the high price more than anything.
Apple wants to avoid people thinking of the iPhone as a "freebie". I know many people with $800 phones that they got for free on a plan. They largely think that if they break it somehow they'll just grab a new (free) one. That kind of thinking with the iPhone may have got 10 times the sales (at a profit margin set by the network (not Apple) like regular phones) and simultaneously would have significantly squashed iPod sales.
Apple also wanted to make sure it was an "always connected" device for email & data (ie no hidden charges).
The result - they chose to charge a high upfront price with slightly above-average monthly costs (in the US) but which included unlimited data. Not a bad deal, but still a slight premium offering. In Europe, they chose a more expensive upfront cost with very high monthly costs (finally coming down on O2!)... it simply wasn't worth it, 3G or not.
For a small while in Australia we had one network that refused to subsidise phones. They offered higher upfront costs on all phones and cheaper calls. Unfortunately people simply went to the free phones on the other networks, so the experiment was dropped. I think Apple could have taken this ground - providing a premium handset (even charging more) but attached to monthly costs that are quite cheap... they could have changed the model, and fit with a Mac metaphor of paying more upfront but cheaper in the long run.
Sure. Quite possibly at the cost of a greater sum of revenue in the long-term.
Every year that Apple updated the iPod it sold exponentially more the next year than it did the previous. I would imagine Apple has learned from this and has intention of doing the same with the iPhone.
Apple knows what they are doing in their labs and we don't. Which is why Apple may be so confident in its 10 million sales and we are not so sure.
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If you honestly believe that anywhere near as many pics are sent via email on cellphones as are sent via MMS, you are smoking some powerful herb that you should've shared with me.
I never said anything like that. I've only cited survey's that showed people request email as the most desired feature on a phone.
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More like I keep ignoring your attempts to change the subject. I'm half expecting to see a chart from you about the relative importance of good Zen vibes caused by the iPhone.
Lets break this down like we are in the 5th grade. Apple made the iPhone to make money. The carriers provide mobile communications service to make money.
Apple and carriers sell iPhone. Carriers project a number of sales, sales are not met. Apple reports hundreds of millions in revenue. Carriers report an increase of long term subscriptions which increases revenue. Everyone is satisfied. Except Baggins who only focuses on carrier sales projections not being met.
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Far as 'profitability' goes, well, exactly how much money are we talking about, or are we just pulling stuff out of our hindquarters? I noticed that in the conference call, neither Cook nor Oppenheimer were willing to break out European iPhone sales, much less whether it was profitable or not over there.
Of course it was nothing to brag about. Doesn't mean it was poor just not as exciting as US sales. How can 350,000 at 269 pounds and 399 Euros in two months be unprofitable?
Free room, board, good health care, a tropical environment and lots of soccer playing detainees. I'll go!
or
My "American privileges" were revoked the day the Patriot Act was signed. (is that too political for this forum?)
Too political? Maybe. But it's true, nonetheless.
Messrs Bush and Cheney can't leave office soon enough. What a disaster they've been. Even my Dad, a diehard conservative, curses and changes the channel whenever Bush comes on now.
Every year that Apple updated the iPod it sold exponentially more the next year than it did the previous. I would imagine Apple has learned from this and has intention of doing the same with the iPhone.
Sigh. Teno, you've been told before to stop re-fighting the iPod war. Its not the same situation or market at all, really. And, actually, iPod sales were flat year-over-year recently.
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Apple knows what they are doing in their labs and we don't. Which is why Apple may be so confident in its 10 million sales and we are not so sure.
Yah, and I'm sure Apple originally thought that they were going to do a whole lot better in Euro than they have. They also probably thought the AppleTV and G4 Cube were going to do gangbusters biz as well. Miss, miss, and miss.
I'm not saying that to rub it in, Teno, but to illustrate a point... Apple's very good, but no one bats a thousand. Not even Steve-o. And arrogance and not listening to what a market wants will drag any company's batting average down. \
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Apple and carriers sell iPhone. Carriers project a number of sales, sales are not met. Apple reports hundreds of millions in revenue. Carriers report an increase of long term subscriptions which increases revenue. Everyone is satisfied. Except Baggins who only focuses on carrier sales projections not being met.
Sigh. And investors, who notice that Apple's iPhone growth story all of a sudden isn't what they thought it was, and then hammer the stock, causing it to nosedive and take about $50 billion of Apple's market cap with it. Duh.
Sure, the impending US recession is a lot of it, but poor iPhone sales sure did not help, especially since prospects for the iPhone were a lot of what was driving the stock price upwards throughout '07.
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Of course it was nothing to brag about. Doesn't mean it was poor just not as exciting as US sales. How can 350,000 at 269 pounds and 399 Euros in two months be unprofitable?
Well, let's stop guessing and see some Euro profit numbers then, Tenerino. After all, you adamantly refused to believe me when I said, prior to the release of 'official numbers', that Apple's Euro iPhone sales were slow. Then official numbers did come out, of course, confirming what I said.
So, I'm gonna pull a Teno and say, "Where's the official numbers, Teno?". Lalalalala, can't HEAR YOU without official numbers.
Sigh. Teno, you've been told before to stop re-fighting the iPod war. Its not the same situation or market at all, really.
No you took my point in the wrong way. I'm not talking about markets. I'm talking about Apple's design culture. The reason the iPod has been so dominant isn't simply because of an immature mp3 market its because of Apple's unyielding culture of design. Which not only applies to the iPod but all Apple products.
Apple has become great at redesigning, refreshing, and reenergizing sales of Mac's as well as iPod and will bring that exact same design philosophy to the iPhone.
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And, actually, iPod sales were flat year-over-year recently.
Not entirely, as usual you only tell part of the story. iPod sales were not flat they grew by 5% which is far less than the 50% growth of 2006. By contrast 2006 did not have the iPhone to cannibalize iPod sales either.
Revenue is a different story, revenue between 2006 and 2007 remained relatively the same. The reason is because many of the iPods sold in 2007 were the more expensive iPod Touch. 2007 Apple averaged $181 in revenue vs $163 in 2006
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Sigh. And investors, who notice that Apple's iPhone growth story all of a sudden isn't what they thought it was, and then hammer the stock, causing it to nosedive and take about $50 billion of Apple's market cap with it. Duh.
I have not seen any financial expert place Apple's stock price and iPhone sales in the same sentence. Only you do.
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Well, let's stop guessing and see some Euro profit numbers then, Tenerino. After all, you adamantly refused to believe me when I said, prior to the release of 'official numbers', that Apple's Euro iPhone sales were slow. Then official numbers did come out, of course, confirming what I said.
Apple did not release official revenue numbers from Europe. But lets see......
Apple of course would not have made all of this 179 million in revenue. Most of these phones were told through carriers or retailers and VAT is included. But Apple I would imagine made the lions share of it.
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You've got to think longer term than two months, though.
You have to start somewhere. Apple is thinking beyond its first few months. When the first iPhone was launched Jobs was said they were already working on the next iPhone.
Yeah, but phone numbers are portable (when you change carriers, your number stays the same), email addys are not, always... say when someone changes a job.
This isn't a huge problem. People don't often change their email. And its simple to change the address in your address book.
and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe?
Underwhelmed in comparison to what?
You're reaching.
You confuse me baggins. How is it reaching to site a survey that show what features people want to use? The point of the entire survey is to show what people want.
People don't generally buy a phone based on how well it takes a picture. Generally the more paramount benchmark is how well can I communicate with it.
What phone is as thin as the iPhone has 8/16Gb of storage and a point and shoot camera attached?
There are more iPhones being used in Europe than the 90,000 being used on Orange France, or the 190,000 being used on O2 UK, or the 70,000 being used on T-Mobile Germany.
Yeah, that's pretty much what "some are unlocked" would tend to mean.
I'm not sure how you can make the Zune sound any better than it is. It did not make 100 million in 2 months.
Yah, but Microsoft can at least say the Zune hits its sales goal, even as ridiculously low as it was. The iPhone in Europe can't say the same, it missed its' goals, with carrier after carrier and in country after country.
What's funny about this statement is that you are really the one who is only looking at this one way.
Sure. The 'reality' way.
You want to say Euro sales were disappointing and that's it, nothing else.
What else would you call missing your targets in all three European launch nations? Miss, miss, and miss. 0 for 3. This is a good thing, to you?
Its highly unlikely any other phone by itself can or has sold 330,000 units and made its manufacturer nearly 1.5 million in one quarter.
Well, aside from missing its sales goals, is 330k in sales really that great for a phone that is allegedly "five years ahead of the competition" (Jobs' words) in a market that is US-sized and has much higher mobile phone penetration than the US (in some countries, exceeding 100%)?
I think all the qualifications and factors on BOTH sides of the ledger were considered when making those targets.... and they were still missed. No use trying to spin that fact, it's more important to fix the problem than insist that its not a problem.
I've said Euro sales are not exceptional.
If by 'not exceptional' you mean lackluster or sub-par, then I'd say you've got it.
I've said they are likely in line with what most other phones are selling. The part where we differ is as long as everyone is making a healthy profit they are all satisfied. You don't want that to be satisfactory until they sell some certain amount.
I want Apple to be able to hit their worldwide goal (10 million iPhones in 12 months), and to do that, Euro sales are probably going to have to come up some.
We can talk about how Apple "making a profit" in a particular market is enough, but honestly, that's small ball. I think an aggressive, intelligent company can see what it could sell in a particular market if it had the right approach and product for that market, and anything less than that is money left on the table. Quite a LOT of it, in this case, actually.
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I don't think it hurts the brand at all to sell an extra half million devices.
I think it does hurt the brand over there to have a much-hyped iPhone launch that ends up being a bit of a yawner.
You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.
When a 3G iPhone comes along I think it will be a bigger success than the 2.75G iPhone was in the US, even if it doesn't have GPS or MMS.
I agree that a 3G iPhone will be a sales success in Europe, but I think it may be overly optimistic to expect a 'bigger than US' -sized success. Europe is just a tougher, more sophisticated market, with a lot more options at the high-end of the market.
Though, as previously stated, it needs MMS. The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.
Agreed.
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I think it does hurt the brand over there to have a much-hyped iPhone launch that ends up being a bit of a yawner.
You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.
While the wireless data hardware is a yawner the UI and multi-touch interface is not. I think the more people play with it the more likely they will to ride out their contract and current phone for a 3G iPhone. I've read more a few "when it's 3G I'll buy one comments" here and elsewhere.
We are going to have to disagree here since there will be no way to quantify if Apple could have made more money in the long run had they held off on releasing the iPhone in the EU and waiting a year to swing deals with Orange, T-Mobile and O2.
Yah, but Microsoft can at least say the Zune hits its sales goal, even as ridiculously low as it was. The iPhone in Europe can't say the same, it missed its' goals, with carrier after carrier and in country after country.
You think Zune hitting its sales goals and making no money are more impressive than the iPhone not hitting its sales goals and making lots of money?
What else would you call missing your targets in all three European launch nations? Miss, miss, and miss. 0 for 3. This is a good thing, to you?
The point of everyone doing any of this is for money. No one in the financial world is overly concerned about the iPhone and its sales goals because it made money. Sales goals are just a prediction of how much money can be made.
We can talk about how Apple "making a profit" in a particular market is enough, but honestly, that's small ball. I think an aggressive, intelligent company can see what it could sell in a particular market if it had the right approach and product for that market, and anything less than that is money left on the table. Quite a LOT of it, in this case, actually.
Making a profit is everything. That is the whole reason for doing all of this, not hitting sales goals. You don't have to sell as much as everyone else if you are able to sell your product for more money than they are able.
If by 'not exceptional' you mean lackluster or sub-par, then I'd say you've got it.
This is only based on hype. iPhone did not live up to its hype. But once it comes down to the reality. The iPhone made Apple lots of money and carriers gained a lot of new subscribers. Its not as sexy as huge sales number but in the end is what truly matters.
You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.
You are taking this to the extreme, I haven't heard the Euro's saying any of this.
You have to start somewhere. Apple is thinking beyond its first few months. When the first iPhone was launched Jobs was said they were already working on the next iPhone.
Apple was thinking? Well, they were and they weren't. They're working on a new model, which is great, but the part where they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers for much of the Euro market missing?
Yeahhhh... that part wasn't such good thinking, as results have borne out.
This isn't a huge problem. People don't often change their email. And its simple to change the address in your address book.
You can quibble all you like, but you can't argue ppl into using an alternative technology when they have something that already fills the need and works well for them... in this case, MMS.
Not to mention the inertia factor, as Solip put it:
The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.
... which is quite true.
Underwhelmed in comparison to what?
Underwhelmed in comparison to it UK sales targets, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to its German sales target, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to its French sales targets, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to US sales, which they are nowhere even remotely near.
Underwhelmed in comparison to Euro consumers' expectations, which were high due to the iPhone's hype, and then not really met by the actual product, which caused them to do a collective, "That's nice" and then walk on to buy something else.
Are you still ostriching this one, Teno? It is funny.
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While the wireless data hardware is a yawner the UI and multi-touch interface is not. I think the more people play with it the more likely they will to ride out their contract and current phone for a 3G iPhone. I've read more a few "when it's 3G I'll buy one comments" here and elsewhere.
We are going to have to disagree here since there will be no way to quantify if Apple could have made more money in the long run had they held off on releasing the iPhone in the EU and waiting a year to swing deals with Orange, T-Mobile and O2.
I don't know that it would've been a year, more like 7 months, perhaps. I think Apple will have a 3G iPhone by June... if they're smart. 3G chipsets that are better on power have been out for a few months already.
I do agree with your "I've read more a few 'when it's 3G I'll buy one' comments" quote. I hear that all the time, both on the 'net and when talking to my European friends. In fact, my new brother-in-law is British... and my brothers and I will be introducing him to the glory that is American tackle football.
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In fact, my new brother-in-law is British... and my brothers and I will be introducing him to the glory that is American tackle football.
I'm a Yankee who much prefers his fütbol over his football.
They're working on a new model, which is great, but the part where they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers for much of the Euro market missing?
The warmed over model that has made Apple a half a billion in revenue in 8 months. A half billion that was not there last year.
You can quibble all you like, but you can't argue ppl into using an alternative technology when they have something that already fills the need and works well for them... in this case, MMS.
Well I'm citing survey's made. You are only citing your own opinion.
Underwhelmed in comparison to it sales targets, which were missed.
You are only looking at that one metric. Sales targets are only a guide and not the important indicator of sales. Once you can look at a product like the Zune and say it met it sales projections but made no money, that pretty much discredits the overall worth of sales projections as a measurement of success. You can only cling to this one thing because it is all you have that supports your assertion that iPhones sales were poor.
You keep dodging and ignoring new mobile subscribers, revenue, and profit (which is what sales projections are meant to measure) because they do not support that iPhone sales were poor. The sales projection show that iPhone sales were not stellar but not necessarily poor either.
The warmed over model that has made Apple a half a billion in revenue in 8 months. A half billion that was not there last year.
Sure. Quite possibly at the cost of a greater sum of revenue in the long-term, far as Europe goes. Though 330k Euro iPhones sold times its asking price is nowhere near "a half a billion" dollars.
Well I'm citing survey's made. You are only citing your own opinion.
If you honestly believe that anywhere near as many pics are sent via email on cellphones as are sent via MMS, you are smoking some powerful stuff that you should've shared with me.
You are only looking at that one metric.
I am looking at that metric because I'm an investor, and investors look at metrics like whether a company and its partners miss or make their own sales goals.
The scary part? Companies nearly always put forward goals that are very conservative and which they're sure to make. Yet Apple and its partner carriers still missed said goals. That's bad, regardless the spin.
You keep dodging and ignoring new mobile subscribers, revenue, and profit (which is what sales projections are meant to measure) because they do not support that iPhone sales were poor. The sales projection show that iPhone sales were not stellar but not necessarily poor either.
More like I keep ignoring your attempts to change the subject. I'm half expecting to see a chart from you about the relative importance of good Zen vibes caused by the iPhone.
Seriously Teno, you'd have a lot more credibility if you'd quit sticking your head in the sand and come out and straight admit, Yes, Euro iPhone sales have been poor, and that should be fixed ASAP. But you'd rather spin, spin, spin than be about the problem and how to resolve it.
Far as 'profitability' goes, well, exactly how much money are we talking about, or are we just pulling stuff out of our hindquarters? I noticed that in the conference call, neither Cook nor Oppenheimer were willing to break out European iPhone sales, much less whether it was profitable or not over there.
Do you have such figures? Exactly how much profit did the iPhone make or not make in Europe, all costs considered? I'm waiting. Notwithstanding, of course, that Apple could certainly make more revenue and more profit, if only the iPhone were doing better in Europe than it is.
But... but... at least the iPhone is PROFITABLE in Europe! I think!
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I'm a Yankee who much prefers his fütbol over his football.
Your American privileges are hereby revoked! Report directly to Guantanamo!
j/k
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they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers
I blame the high price more than anything.
Apple wants to avoid people thinking of the iPhone as a "freebie". I know many people with $800 phones that they got for free on a plan. They largely think that if they break it somehow they'll just grab a new (free) one. That kind of thinking with the iPhone may have got 10 times the sales (at a profit margin set by the network (not Apple) like regular phones) and simultaneously would have significantly squashed iPod sales.
Apple also wanted to make sure it was an "always connected" device for email & data (ie no hidden charges).
The result - they chose to charge a high upfront price with slightly above-average monthly costs (in the US) but which included unlimited data. Not a bad deal, but still a slight premium offering. In Europe, they chose a more expensive upfront cost with very high monthly costs (finally coming down on O2!)... it simply wasn't worth it, 3G or not.
For a small while in Australia we had one network that refused to subsidise phones. They offered higher upfront costs on all phones and cheaper calls. Unfortunately people simply went to the free phones on the other networks, so the experiment was dropped. I think Apple could have taken this ground - providing a premium handset (even charging more) but attached to monthly costs that are quite cheap... they could have changed the model, and fit with a Mac metaphor of paying more upfront but cheaper in the long run.
Ah well.
Your American privileges are hereby revoked! Report directly to Guantanamo!
Free room, board, good health care, a tropical environment and lots of soccer playing detainees. I'll go!
or
My "American priviledges" were revoked the day the Patriot Act was signed. (is that too political for this forum?)
Sure. Quite possibly at the cost of a greater sum of revenue in the long-term.
Every year that Apple updated the iPod it sold exponentially more the next year than it did the previous. I would imagine Apple has learned from this and has intention of doing the same with the iPhone.
Apple knows what they are doing in their labs and we don't. Which is why Apple may be so confident in its 10 million sales and we are not so sure.
If you honestly believe that anywhere near as many pics are sent via email on cellphones as are sent via MMS, you are smoking some powerful herb that you should've shared with me.
I never said anything like that. I've only cited survey's that showed people request email as the most desired feature on a phone.
More like I keep ignoring your attempts to change the subject. I'm half expecting to see a chart from you about the relative importance of good Zen vibes caused by the iPhone.
Lets break this down like we are in the 5th grade. Apple made the iPhone to make money. The carriers provide mobile communications service to make money.
Apple and carriers sell iPhone. Carriers project a number of sales, sales are not met. Apple reports hundreds of millions in revenue. Carriers report an increase of long term subscriptions which increases revenue. Everyone is satisfied. Except Baggins who only focuses on carrier sales projections not being met.
Far as 'profitability' goes, well, exactly how much money are we talking about, or are we just pulling stuff out of our hindquarters? I noticed that in the conference call, neither Cook nor Oppenheimer were willing to break out European iPhone sales, much less whether it was profitable or not over there.
Of course it was nothing to brag about. Doesn't mean it was poor just not as exciting as US sales. How can 350,000 at 269 pounds and 399 Euros in two months be unprofitable?
Free room, board, good health care, a tropical environment and lots of soccer playing detainees. I'll go!
or
My "American privileges" were revoked the day the Patriot Act was signed. (is that too political for this forum?)
Too political? Maybe. But it's true, nonetheless.
Messrs Bush and Cheney can't leave office soon enough. What a disaster they've been. Even my Dad, a diehard conservative, curses and changes the channel whenever Bush comes on now.
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Every year that Apple updated the iPod it sold exponentially more the next year than it did the previous. I would imagine Apple has learned from this and has intention of doing the same with the iPhone.
Sigh. Teno, you've been told before to stop re-fighting the iPod war. Its not the same situation or market at all, really. And, actually, iPod sales were flat year-over-year recently.
Apple knows what they are doing in their labs and we don't. Which is why Apple may be so confident in its 10 million sales and we are not so sure.
Yah, and I'm sure Apple originally thought that they were going to do a whole lot better in Euro than they have. They also probably thought the AppleTV and G4 Cube were going to do gangbusters biz as well. Miss, miss, and miss.
I'm not saying that to rub it in, Teno, but to illustrate a point... Apple's very good, but no one bats a thousand. Not even Steve-o. And arrogance and not listening to what a market wants will drag any company's batting average down.
Apple and carriers sell iPhone. Carriers project a number of sales, sales are not met. Apple reports hundreds of millions in revenue. Carriers report an increase of long term subscriptions which increases revenue. Everyone is satisfied. Except Baggins who only focuses on carrier sales projections not being met.
Sigh. And investors, who notice that Apple's iPhone growth story all of a sudden isn't what they thought it was, and then hammer the stock, causing it to nosedive and take about $50 billion of Apple's market cap with it. Duh.
Sure, the impending US recession is a lot of it, but poor iPhone sales sure did not help, especially since prospects for the iPhone were a lot of what was driving the stock price upwards throughout '07.
Of course it was nothing to brag about. Doesn't mean it was poor just not as exciting as US sales. How can 350,000 at 269 pounds and 399 Euros in two months be unprofitable?
Well, let's stop guessing and see some Euro profit numbers then, Tenerino. After all, you adamantly refused to believe me when I said, prior to the release of 'official numbers', that Apple's Euro iPhone sales were slow. Then official numbers did come out, of course, confirming what I said.
So, I'm gonna pull a Teno and say, "Where's the official numbers, Teno?". Lalalalala, can't HEAR YOU without official numbers.
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Sigh. Teno, you've been told before to stop re-fighting the iPod war. Its not the same situation or market at all, really.
No you took my point in the wrong way. I'm not talking about markets. I'm talking about Apple's design culture. The reason the iPod has been so dominant isn't simply because of an immature mp3 market its because of Apple's unyielding culture of design. Which not only applies to the iPod but all Apple products.
Apple has become great at redesigning, refreshing, and reenergizing sales of Mac's as well as iPod and will bring that exact same design philosophy to the iPhone.
And, actually, iPod sales were flat year-over-year recently.
Not entirely, as usual you only tell part of the story. iPod sales were not flat they grew by 5% which is far less than the 50% growth of 2006. By contrast 2006 did not have the iPhone to cannibalize iPod sales either.
Revenue is a different story, revenue between 2006 and 2007 remained relatively the same. The reason is because many of the iPods sold in 2007 were the more expensive iPod Touch. 2007 Apple averaged $181 in revenue vs $163 in 2006
Sigh. And investors, who notice that Apple's iPhone growth story all of a sudden isn't what they thought it was, and then hammer the stock, causing it to nosedive and take about $50 billion of Apple's market cap with it. Duh.
I have not seen any financial expert place Apple's stock price and iPhone sales in the same sentence. Only you do.
Well, let's stop guessing and see some Euro profit numbers then, Tenerino. After all, you adamantly refused to believe me when I said, prior to the release of 'official numbers', that Apple's Euro iPhone sales were slow. Then official numbers did come out, of course, confirming what I said.
Apple did not release official revenue numbers from Europe. But lets see......
190,000 @ 269 pounds + 90,000 @ 399 Euros + 70,000 @ 399 Euros = $179,520,000 USD
Apple of course would not have made all of this 179 million in revenue. Most of these phones were told through carriers or retailers and VAT is included. But Apple I would imagine made the lions share of it.
iphone is a dud, another of Apple's failed products along with the MBA, Apple TV, and Cube.
Great post!