The problem with the iPhone is that Apple put in a crappy, less functional BT stack. It only supports Headset while every phone I have had for the last 5 or 6 years has supported a complete BT stack. So the problem resides at Apple and the way they implemented BT on the iPhone.
Brother, what's the matter with people here?
How many times have I said that a program was out that allowed tethering easily?
It works just fine. It's just that it was withdrawn because of contractual issues.
They are working on just that, too. I can't say how successful I think they will be but I was impressed that they publicly acknowledged this as a major issue. This year they have purchased Symbian outright, TrollTech and are working with Mozilla to get FF to Symbian.
The fact that Nokia are responding is good. But what can they do?
Nokia has a billion and one phones. A lot of them at the low-end of the market. The trouble is, there's very little money to be made down there.
It is at the top-end of the market, where rich people buy phones, that stuff gets interesting.
Here's my attempt to list the various uses people want for their top-end phones. (and which device does it best)
Everyone's list might be different. But in my list, Symbian devices don't appear too often.
1) Most Desirable Device (iPhone)
2) Best Media Experience . (iPhone)
3) Best Email. (Blackberry)
4) Best Web. (iPhone)
5) Best Photography (Nokia / Sony Ericsson - note: not a software feature)
6) Best Applications (iPhone)
7) Best GPS (Nokia)
8) Best Corporate Device (Blackberry)
The fight for the top-end is about desirability and software.
Nokia could hire better industrial designers to make more desirable devices. But the software issue seems too massive. I am not sure what Symbian could possibly do to to see the Symbian platform come close to Cocoa.
We can go round and round on this. You can not convince me otherwise nor can I convince you, so we agree to disagree. To me, my opinion, as I see it, the iPhone is simply an iPod that can make calls.
We can drop this one. It'sfine with me.
But, as you had your final shot, I must be allowed to have mine.
I don't agree. The iPhone does much more than act as a phone, and iPod. But, you can continue to think what you want, as I believe that many other smartphones stink.
Since we know it can easily be done, what would the advantage to Apple be for not allowing it?
They would sell more phones, there would be more iPhone data usage.
There would be nothing I can think of that would be a detriment.
Are you privy to the contracts Apple has signed with these carriers?
I was responding to this statement you made:
Quote:
Most BT enabled phones don't have that either yet. Google just removed the possibility from its own OS, Android, and said that it would likely be back at some unknown time in the future
I was simply stating that outside of US operators, I have not seen the use of tethering limited.
Privy to contracts, no but I did ask a few friends at Sonera and they have given me the impression that Apple is making the demands on the operators.
Why just this market? This is only one market. I would be willing to see what they do globally.
It is probably a test to see if it can challenge the iPhone in sales that way. If it does, they might do it elsewhere. If it doesn't, they will likely keep prices high elsewhere.
Melgross, do you understand about the BT stack? You can implement everything except tethering, but Apple didn't. Nullriver has nothing to do with this. Apple implemented a crippled BT stack and there is no getting around this.
The fact that Nokia are responding is good. But what can they do?
Nokia has a billion and one phones. A lot of them at the low-end of the market. The trouble is, there's very little money to be made down there.
It is at the top-end of the market, where rich people buy phones, that stuff gets interesting.
Here's my attempt to list the various uses people want for their top-end phones. (and which device does it best)
Everyone's list might be different. But in my list, Symbian devices don't appear too often.
1) Most Desirable Device (iPhone)
2) Best Media Experience . (iPhone)
3) Best Email. (Blackberry)
4) Best Web. (iPhone)
5) Best Photography (Nokia / Sony Ericsson - note: not a software feature)
6) Best Applications (iPhone)
7) Best GPS (Nokia)
8) Best Corporate Device (Blackberry)
The fight for the top-end is about desirability and software. I am not sure what Symbian could possibly do to to see the Symbian platform come close to Cocoa.
C.
Nice list! They would have to focus on their high-end and they will have to change the UI. I don't know if they can do it, but not many though Apple could make a phone or stave off dying, much less being the success that it is today. We don't know if they will succeed on the high-end front, but they do have hardcore fans that rival Apple's, they have acknowledged the issues and they have taken steps to address the issues. I say we shouldn't make any bets on Nokia until we see what their new UI is going to look like.
It is probably a test to see if it can challenge the iPhone in sales that way. If it does, they might do it elsewhere. If it doesn't, they will likely keep prices high elsewhere.
I agree. I think Nokia is testing the waters before they launch their new phones.
I was simply stating that outside of US operators, I have not seen the use of tethering limited.
Privy to contracts, no but I did ask a few friends at Sonera and they have given me the impression that Apple is making the demands on the operators.
I'm beginning to wonder about those contacts. What they keep telling you seems to be more defensive guessing than anything else.
Exactly what reasons did they give you as to why Apple would care about this?
You know it makes no sense. It costs Apple nothing, and is to its advantage to allow it where it is allowed.
The only thing I can think of, is that it's possible that allowing software to be available ANYWHERE that would allow it SOMEWHERE, would violate contracts where it isn't allowed, by the mere fact that it could be downloaded in one place, and used in another.
Nice list! They would have to focus on their high-end and they will have to change the UI. I don't know if they can do it, but not many though Apple could make a phone or stave off dying, much less being the success that it is today. We don't know if they will succeed on the high-end front, but they do have hardcore fans that rival Apple's, they have acknowledged the issues and they have taken steps to address the issues. I say we shouldn't make any bets on Nokia until we see what their new UI is going to look like.
I hope Nokia succeed, because competition is a good thing. (TM)
My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.
You just proved that you have very little experience. Nokia's phones come with the cards in the slots. The camera's usually default to saving the pictures and videos (iPhone-nope) on the card. People use them.
It may help Nokia's quarterly profits if they stopped including the card.
People thought Apple was crazy when it stopped using parallel ports and floppy disks. In hindsight it was the right thing to do.
It may help Nokia's quarterly profits if they stopped including the card.
People thought Apple was crazy when it stopped using parallel ports and floppy disks. In hindsight it was the right thing to do.
You make a good point about the cards but the price is probably figured into the cost of the phone. Also, people have shown that for the most part the standard 1, or 2 gig cards are too small and they are opting for larger 4, 8, or even 16 gig cards.
I hope Nokia succeed, because competition is a good thing. (TM)
My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.
C.
While I agree Nokia will continue to have success. Their ability to compete in the smartphone market is whats up for question.
People want to dismiss the the iPhone as a pretty UI. Their is a lot more going on under the hood. The kicker is the fact that development of the iPhone OS and desktop Mac OS complement and inform each other. A situation that will be a serious challenge to compete against.
My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.
I assume this is why Nokia bought Trolltech (and therefore QT).
I've done development on Symbian and WinMo. WinMo certainly has the better IDE and documentation but Symbian isn't too bad if you're a competent programmer. Nokia's implementation of Python is very nice and you've also got the option of Java, Flash, POSIX C and probably a few other languages. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job.
I assume this is why Nokia bought Trolltech (and therefore QT).
I've done development on Symbian and WinMo. WinMo certainly has the better IDE and documentation but Symbian isn't too bad if you're a competent programmer. Nokia's implementation of Python is very nice and you've also got the option of Java, Flash, POSIX C and probably a few other languages. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job.
Rich,
As an actual mobile software developer, in your opinion, which platform offers you the best likelihood of making money?
And, have you looked at the iPhone environment and tools?
We've been through the tethering thing before. Apple is contractually obligated to do that. Go to AT&T and the other providers for that.
VOIP across 3G is the same thing, a contractual obligation.
We have been through this before, not in all countries
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Most BT enabled phones don't have that either yet. Google just removed the possibility from its own OS, Android, and said that it would likely be back at some unknown time in the future
No phone anywhere can tether without the express consent of the carrier. It usually involves software that the carrier approves, plus a monthly fee, though I believe that Sprint (through desperation) allows my now not used Treo 700p to tether without a fee, if one already has the data service.
There are a lot of phones that can, as an example, my Nokia E65 can, in fact my carrier has ad-hoc data rates so I can do it without a data plan as well
Comments
The problem with the iPhone is that Apple put in a crappy, less functional BT stack. It only supports Headset while every phone I have had for the last 5 or 6 years has supported a complete BT stack. So the problem resides at Apple and the way they implemented BT on the iPhone.
Brother, what's the matter with people here?
How many times have I said that a program was out that allowed tethering easily?
It works just fine. It's just that it was withdrawn because of contractual issues.
http://www.macrumors.com/2008/07/31/...pp-for-iphone/
http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itune...s&newsid=22285
They are working on just that, too. I can't say how successful I think they will be but I was impressed that they publicly acknowledged this as a major issue. This year they have purchased Symbian outright, TrollTech and are working with Mozilla to get FF to Symbian.
The fact that Nokia are responding is good. But what can they do?
Nokia has a billion and one phones. A lot of them at the low-end of the market. The trouble is, there's very little money to be made down there.
It is at the top-end of the market, where rich people buy phones, that stuff gets interesting.
Here's my attempt to list the various uses people want for their top-end phones. (and which device does it best)
Everyone's list might be different. But in my list, Symbian devices don't appear too often.
1) Most Desirable Device (iPhone)
2) Best Media Experience . (iPhone)
3) Best Email. (Blackberry)
4) Best Web. (iPhone)
5) Best Photography (Nokia / Sony Ericsson - note: not a software feature)
6) Best Applications (iPhone)
7) Best GPS (Nokia)
8) Best Corporate Device (Blackberry)
The fight for the top-end is about desirability and software.
Nokia could hire better industrial designers to make more desirable devices. But the software issue seems too massive. I am not sure what Symbian could possibly do to to see the Symbian platform come close to Cocoa.
C.
We can go round and round on this. You can not convince me otherwise nor can I convince you, so we agree to disagree. To me, my opinion, as I see it, the iPhone is simply an iPod that can make calls.
We can drop this one. It'sfine with me.
But, as you had your final shot, I must be allowed to have mine.
I don't agree. The iPhone does much more than act as a phone, and iPod. But, you can continue to think what you want, as I believe that many other smartphones stink.
You have not HEARD?
Since we know it can easily be done, what would the advantage to Apple be for not allowing it?
They would sell more phones, there would be more iPhone data usage.
There would be nothing I can think of that would be a detriment.
Are you privy to the contracts Apple has signed with these carriers?
I was responding to this statement you made:
Most BT enabled phones don't have that either yet. Google just removed the possibility from its own OS, Android, and said that it would likely be back at some unknown time in the future
I was simply stating that outside of US operators, I have not seen the use of tethering limited.
Privy to contracts, no but I did ask a few friends at Sonera and they have given me the impression that Apple is making the demands on the operators.
Why just this market? This is only one market. I would be willing to see what they do globally.
It is probably a test to see if it can challenge the iPhone in sales that way. If it does, they might do it elsewhere. If it doesn't, they will likely keep prices high elsewhere.
Brother, what's the matter with people here?
How many times have I said that a program was out that allowed tethering easily?
It works just fine. It's just that it was withdrawn because of contractual issues.
http://www.macrumors.com/2008/07/31/...pp-for-iphone/
http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itune...s&newsid=22285
Melgross, do you understand about the BT stack? You can implement everything except tethering, but Apple didn't. Nullriver has nothing to do with this. Apple implemented a crippled BT stack and there is no getting around this.
The fact that Nokia are responding is good. But what can they do?
Nokia has a billion and one phones. A lot of them at the low-end of the market. The trouble is, there's very little money to be made down there.
It is at the top-end of the market, where rich people buy phones, that stuff gets interesting.
Here's my attempt to list the various uses people want for their top-end phones. (and which device does it best)
Everyone's list might be different. But in my list, Symbian devices don't appear too often.
1) Most Desirable Device (iPhone)
2) Best Media Experience . (iPhone)
3) Best Email. (Blackberry)
4) Best Web. (iPhone)
5) Best Photography (Nokia / Sony Ericsson - note: not a software feature)
6) Best Applications (iPhone)
7) Best GPS (Nokia)
8) Best Corporate Device (Blackberry)
The fight for the top-end is about desirability and software. I am not sure what Symbian could possibly do to to see the Symbian platform come close to Cocoa.
C.
Nice list! They would have to focus on their high-end and they will have to change the UI. I don't know if they can do it, but not many though Apple could make a phone or stave off dying, much less being the success that it is today. We don't know if they will succeed on the high-end front, but they do have hardcore fans that rival Apple's, they have acknowledged the issues and they have taken steps to address the issues. I say we shouldn't make any bets on Nokia until we see what their new UI is going to look like.
It is probably a test to see if it can challenge the iPhone in sales that way. If it does, they might do it elsewhere. If it doesn't, they will likely keep prices high elsewhere.
I agree. I think Nokia is testing the waters before they launch their new phones.
I was responding to this statement you made:
I was simply stating that outside of US operators, I have not seen the use of tethering limited.
Privy to contracts, no but I did ask a few friends at Sonera and they have given me the impression that Apple is making the demands on the operators.
I'm beginning to wonder about those contacts. What they keep telling you seems to be more defensive guessing than anything else.
Exactly what reasons did they give you as to why Apple would care about this?
You know it makes no sense. It costs Apple nothing, and is to its advantage to allow it where it is allowed.
The only thing I can think of, is that it's possible that allowing software to be available ANYWHERE that would allow it SOMEWHERE, would violate contracts where it isn't allowed, by the mere fact that it could be downloaded in one place, and used in another.
Nice list! They would have to focus on their high-end and they will have to change the UI. I don't know if they can do it, but not many though Apple could make a phone or stave off dying, much less being the success that it is today. We don't know if they will succeed on the high-end front, but they do have hardcore fans that rival Apple's, they have acknowledged the issues and they have taken steps to address the issues. I say we shouldn't make any bets on Nokia until we see what their new UI is going to look like.
I hope Nokia succeed, because competition is a good thing. (TM)
My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.
C.
You just proved that you have very little experience. Nokia's phones come with the cards in the slots. The camera's usually default to saving the pictures and videos (iPhone-nope) on the card. People use them.
It may help Nokia's quarterly profits if they stopped including the card.
People thought Apple was crazy when it stopped using parallel ports and floppy disks. In hindsight it was the right thing to do.
It may help Nokia's quarterly profits if they stopped including the card.
People thought Apple was crazy when it stopped using parallel ports and floppy disks. In hindsight it was the right thing to do.
You make a good point about the cards but the price is probably figured into the cost of the phone. Also, people have shown that for the most part the standard 1, or 2 gig cards are too small and they are opting for larger 4, 8, or even 16 gig cards.
I hope Nokia succeed, because competition is a good thing. (TM)
My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.
C.
While I agree Nokia will continue to have success. Their ability to compete in the smartphone market is whats up for question.
People want to dismiss the the iPhone as a pretty UI. Their is a lot more going on under the hood. The kicker is the fact that development of the iPhone OS and desktop Mac OS complement and inform each other. A situation that will be a serious challenge to compete against.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...hip-up-80.html
My worry is that they don't get it. Cocoa is more than just a GUI.
I assume this is why Nokia bought Trolltech (and therefore QT).
I've done development on Symbian and WinMo. WinMo certainly has the better IDE and documentation but Symbian isn't too bad if you're a competent programmer. Nokia's implementation of Python is very nice and you've also got the option of Java, Flash, POSIX C and probably a few other languages. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job.
I assume this is why Nokia bought Trolltech (and therefore QT).
I've done development on Symbian and WinMo. WinMo certainly has the better IDE and documentation but Symbian isn't too bad if you're a competent programmer. Nokia's implementation of Python is very nice and you've also got the option of Java, Flash, POSIX C and probably a few other languages. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job.
Rich,
As an actual mobile software developer, in your opinion, which platform offers you the best likelihood of making money?
And, have you looked at the iPhone environment and tools?
C.
We've been through the tethering thing before. Apple is contractually obligated to do that. Go to AT&T and the other providers for that.
VOIP across 3G is the same thing, a contractual obligation.
We have been through this before, not in all countries
Most BT enabled phones don't have that either yet. Google just removed the possibility from its own OS, Android, and said that it would likely be back at some unknown time in the future
What do you mean by most?
Really, which companies, and which countries?
And I don't mean the ones that saw they had to open up AFTER the iPhone with iTunes support came out, but before.
A lot of phones had the ability to copy mp3s (and other formats) to the phone way before the iPhone came about
No phone anywhere can tether without the express consent of the carrier. It usually involves software that the carrier approves, plus a monthly fee, though I believe that Sprint (through desperation) allows my now not used Treo 700p to tether without a fee, if one already has the data service.
There are a lot of phones that can, as an example, my Nokia E65 can, in fact my carrier has ad-hoc data rates so I can do it without a data plan as well