All apps shown in the demo - that includes email, the calendar, the photo app and the dial app - were written this way, so I doubt there are concerns about flexibility.
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo
how stupid is that, just look at the vast amounts of (paid) open source software, already available javascript browser apps available for desktop browsers or easily decompilable software written in java, .net- or scripting-languages.
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse
I thought revolutionary is introducing features not found anywhere..
can you find a phone that multitask?..or one with integrated messaging?
The iphone does multitask, Apple just don't let you do it. It's not a hardware feature but a software feature. Also, as I've said earlier, Safari's tabs load in the background. Even if the Pre goes beyond this, it's not a completely innovative system that is way beyond anything we've seen.
I don't see what is the big deal about messaging. I get the impression you looked at the list of what the iphone does and what the Pre does and are blowing the differences way out of proportion. The iphone has instant messaging apps. No MMS but you have email. MMS was just what they invented because email wasn't on mobile phones.
Ok maybe instant messaging apps won't give you notifications when you are in other apps and some may close the program down because the developers haven't implemented the save state properly (some apps will suspend correctly and start where you left off when you go back in) but none of this is amazing stuff.
Are people this desperate to see the iphone being knocked down a peg to resort to hyping up a phone with a clumsy physical keyboard, only webapps and no known apps yet and that hasn't launched yet? The iphone has flaws that need to be fixed and maybe Apple will only get round to it when they look bad vs the competition but seriously, the Palm Pre is nothing to get this excited about.
What if Apple release the 3rd generation iphone with a multi-core ARM, the latest PowerVR, 32GB storage and turn multi-tasking on (maybe in a limited sense so that only maybe 2-3 background apps are allowed). Will you guys all be putting down the Palm Pre? I would imagine probably not. Given that the iphone is the father of all these devices, I don't understand the anti-iphone agenda.
I can see how you are angry, but this post is beyond the pale in terms of calling white black and hoping that no one will notice. As another old mac user, I can tell you that you are wrong on most of this.
1) No way of knowing if the pre outperforms the iPhone, you are just making that up at this point.
2) the demo was good but hardly blows away the iPhone or anything. More like they have solved similar problems in a different way (and sometimes in the exact same way).
3) the Newton had cut and paste.
4) The handwriting recognition was not that bad (yes I used it), and was pretty much fixed in the second update if I remember correctly, but by that time the media had already vilified it and the legend of bad recognition stuck.
The Newton failed because of a whole nexus of things. It was heavy, it was many years ahead of it's time (no average person would ever buy one or see a need to), it was expensive, and (at first) it was buggy.
"Regular" people are being drawn into using mobile computers and smart phones today only because computers themselves are far more ubiquitous, and the portable computers do several things that the average person actually needs. Most importantly, they make phone calls, and play music and video. When the Newton was out, it had none of those features. It was a geek-toy for those that could see the future. Hell most folks didn't even have cell phones then or email.
actually, he was not making up#1. Palm did say the pre would outperform the iphone.. maybe palm is making it up.
#2, the demo did blow away the iphone. Multitask, synergy?.. that blows away iphone for me. Why the hell would i want an iphone now?. I have never bought music from itunes so that holds no attraction for me. Other than the fact iphone is made by apple, why would i want to buy one?.. no cut and paste, no real time gps, no stereo bluetooth (to listen to music through bluetooth headphone). no integrated messaging, no mms.. why the hell would i buy that crippled piece of junk knowing what's coming down the pike?
And oh yeah, looking beautiful is secondary to me. I prefer features over looks (besides, the pre looks pretty nice to me) and a big, big icing on the cake is the inductive charger.. i have a phone right now and the connector is messed up.. very hard to charge the phone.. i curse almost every day.. was about to buy a new phone but now i will wait. You have no idea how important it is to be able to easily charge your phone until your phone connector gets messed up and you have to fiddle with it to get your phone charging.. makes you appreciate things you normally take for granted.
While the iPhone and iPod Touch keyboards are great, many prefer a one-handed portait approach which frees up the other hand for other tasks.
Yes.. I know.. I'm one of those people.. I used to use my Treo with one hand.. it was pretty easy to use.. but I actually think the iPhone is easier to use with one hand.... and I think the Palm Pre looks like it will be top-heavy with the keyboard out, making it quite hard to operate with just one hand.. (just a guess here)
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
The iphone does multitask, Apple just don't let you do it. It's not a hardware feature but a software feature. Also, as I've said earlier, Safari's tabs load in the background. Even if the Pre goes beyond this, it's not a completely innovative system that is way beyond anything we've seen.
I don't see what is the big deal about messaging. I get the impression you looked at the list of what the iphone does and what the Pre does and are blowing the differences way out of proportion. The iphone has instant messaging apps. No MMS but you have email. MMS was just what they invented because email wasn't on mobile phones.
Ok maybe instant messaging apps won't give you notifications when you are in other apps and some may close the program down because the developers haven't implemented the save state properly (some apps will suspend correctly and start where you left off when you go back in) but none of this is amazing stuff.
Are people this desperate to see the iphone being knocked down a peg to resort to hyping up a phone with a clumsy physical keyboard, only webapps and no known apps yet and that hasn't launched yet? The iphone has flaws that need to be fixed and maybe Apple will only get round to it when they look bad vs the competition but seriously, the Palm Pre is nothing to get this excited about.
What if Apple release the 3rd generation iphone with a multi-core ARM, the latest PowerVR, 32GB storage and turn multi-tasking on (maybe in a limited sense so that only maybe 2-3 background apps are allowed). Will you guys all be putting down the Palm Pre? I would imagine probably not. Given that the iphone is the father of all these devices, I don't understand the anti-iphone agenda.
Marvin, i think all the blogs on the net think the pre is revolutionary. Apple fans want to stick their head in the sand and claim the iphone could multitask but the great one wouldnt allow it.. fine, go ahead.
as to people wanting to see the iphone fail.. i don't. I like apple. I don't think the pre could ever make the iphone fail but to ignore the fact that its revolutionary cause you think the iphone could do the same.. well, sure, if shit had wings, it too could fly. When the iphone does the same stuff, let me know... until then.. coulda, shudda, woulda.. whatever. It does not do it.. that's all i know.
There is a big deal about messaging.. people message more than they talk now.. i used to be that way until like 5 years ago when i realized everyone around me was messaging while I was still talking. I have a sneaking suspicion you are a bit older?.. don't let someone under 30 hear you make that statement.. you would never be cool to a young woman ever again. Maybe you are way past that age to care about being cool but dude, that was an uncool statement..
Marvin, i think all the blogs on the net think the pre is revolutionary.
Those people do want to see the iphone fail. A great number of people want to see it fail. 9 out of 10 smartphone device manufacturers want to see it fail:
These people point to anything that has a hint of possibly being better at some things and put all their betting chips on it until they find it lacking and look for something else to do the same thing with. They'll be trying it with the Nokia N97 when it comes too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse
I don't think the pre could ever make the iphone fail but to ignore the fact that its revolutionary cause you think the iphone could do the same.. well, sure, if shit had wings, it too could fly. When the iphone does the same stuff, let me know... until then.. coulda, shudda, woulda.. whatever. It does not do it.. that's all i know.
But that's the difference between it being revolutionary and not. Apple's device can do all this stuff but they choose not to in the interests of the end user experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse
Maybe you are way past that age to care about being cool but dude, that was an uncool statement..
Hey, I'm still cool. I know messaging is relevant and I text more than I talk too but MMS is just for images and it's expensive. The iphone has SMS and email. Instant messaging I don't quite understand. I see people sit at their computer and have IM sessions go on for ages. If I need a prolonged conversation, I'd call someone. Yeah, yeah uncool I know.
Anyway, I agree these things need improved on the iphone. The point is that these are not revolutionary changes. Apple could fix them in a 2.3 update tomorrow. The 'coulda, shudda, woulda' thing doesn't move it into revolutionary territory based on the fact they haven't yet done it yet.
System-wide copy and paste is one of the easiest things you can do. All you are doing is adding text into a small memory buffer (could even be file-system based instead of Ram) and reading it from another program. It doesn't even have to be a separate program but a feature of the text field box, though it would be nice to copy/paste text from a browser page too.
For some reason, Apple leave even the smallest, easiest things alone. Things like the horizontal icon spacing on the Finder. 7-8 years they left it like that. It's not revolutionary that they added it because it's a minor feature and the flaws in the iphone are relatively minor.
Companies do this all the time to keep people upgrading. If they deliver the perfect home run, what can they offer in the next version? Adobe did this with After Effects - you couldn't animate x,y,z co-ordinates separately. This was ridiculously simple and yet they only fixed it in CS4 when they ran out of ideas.
So is there any reason to believe that web-based apps won't be just as big of a flop on the Pre as they were on the iPhone?
It is not as simple as that. They won't simply be "web" apps. Bottomline is that the Palm Pre sdk will allow native apps. Its just that the programmers will be using programming languages normallly associated with web apps. Uh uh dude Palm is out for blood! \
Rubenstein is more or less only there to design the new phone though, and Colligan is a heartless old-time business guy with an inferiority complex running a company "on death's door."
It's very common for companies on their last legs to get infusions of venture capital as investor's bet on a long-shot retreat from the edge of the abyss. On the few occasions when this actually happens and the stock goes up, it's very hard to ignore the one moment when as an investor you could get all your money back and not lose anything simply by selling the company at that point.
I'm not saying it *will* necessarily happen, but while Rubenstein is in his lab cooing over the details of the product, Colligan is almost certainly weighing his options vis-a-vis a sale of the company. Even if he eventually decides not to do it, he would be foolish not to at least think about it.
The inventors and designers of the computer world often get screwed by their corporate masters in this way.
If I had controlling interest in Palm I might be tempted to have Colligan kicked out and have Jon Rubenstein replace him.
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
The iphone does multitask, Apple just don't let you do it. It's not a hardware feature but a software feature. Also, as I've said earlier, Safari's tabs load in the background. Even if the Pre goes beyond this, it's not a completely innovative system that is way beyond anything we've seen.
I don't see what is the big deal about messaging. I get the impression you looked at the list of what the iphone does and what the Pre does and are blowing the differences way out of proportion. The iphone has instant messaging apps. No MMS but you have email. MMS was just what they invented because email wasn't on mobile phones.
Ok maybe instant messaging apps won't give you notifications when you are in other apps and some may close the program down because the developers haven't implemented the save state properly (some apps will suspend correctly and start where you left off when you go back in) but none of this is amazing stuff.
Are people this desperate to see the iphone being knocked down a peg to resort to hyping up a phone with a clumsy physical keyboard, only webapps and no known apps yet and that hasn't launched yet? The iphone has flaws that need to be fixed and maybe Apple will only get round to it when they look bad vs the competition but seriously, the Palm Pre is nothing to get this excited about.
What if Apple release the 3rd generation iphone with a multi-core ARM, the latest PowerVR, 32GB storage and turn multi-tasking on (maybe in a limited sense so that only maybe 2-3 background apps are allowed). Will you guys all be putting down the Palm Pre? I would imagine probably not. Given that the iphone is the father of all these devices, I don't understand the anti-iphone agenda.
Its not an anti-apple "agenda" ....geezus agenda ... Its just that a competitor that was written off as being dead has come out with a product that answers many of the iphone's shortcomings. All of these reactions you are reading are normal.
There is no worse time to release a new phone. It's done all the time and this new phone will still do stuff the new iphone will not do (multitasking anyone?). might sound like a minor feature to you but imagine if your apple computer could not multitask but windows could... you'd switch to windows in a heartbeat. I predict after the pre, people will not be able to imagine living in a world where phones do not multitask becuase i gurantee you.. palm will see sales forcing all other handset makers to implement multitask just like apple has forced all handset makers to implement multi-touch (and multi task is a way bigger feature than multi-touch).
Unlike computers, you can only work on one program at a time on a smartphone due to the limited screen size. I don't have anything against the Pre but lets be real. The Pre did not introduce anything new in term of hardware (removable batteries and keyboards are not new) and we still don't know how the OS will work. Multitasking and background applications are nice but I really don't want them if they are going to cut my battery life in half. By the way, any news about the price and battery life?
When the iPhone was release it introduced multi touch and simplicity of the interface, The iPhone is so simple to use that even my 3 year old son knows how to unlock it and start any game he wants without my help.
If you want to make a successful phone you have to target everyone and not only tech users. Many people I know who bought an iPhone now have never owned a smartphone before. We've been hearing this iPhone killers talk since the iPhone was released. Unfortunately, non really delivered the promise even with a longer list of specs and features
actually, he was not making up#1. Palm did say the pre would outperform the iphone.. maybe palm is making it up.
Well, I missed that detail, but certainly *someone* is making that up. It's pretty much impossible to say either way when you are comparing an alpha or a product with a product that's been shipping for over a year. they could mean lots of things by that statement like faster chip speed, or subjectively faster execution but it's all really moot until it's a real product that can be compared one on one with the iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse
#2, the demo did blow away the iphone. Multitask, synergy?.. that blows away iphone for me. ...
I would agree with the "for me" part here, in that we are talking subjective perceptions really. I was personally quite impressed by the product, but certainly not "blown away." An hour or so later, once removed from the hype, I had some serious questions about what I saw. To me it's like going to a movie and walking out thinking it was great, only to tell someone a week later after thinking on it a bit that it kind of sucked. Again, I will wait until I actually see one in the wild and what it can do before I decide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse
And oh yeah, looking beautiful is secondary to me. I prefer features over looks (besides, the pre looks pretty nice to me) ...
"Looks" is part of design though. If you want a device that cares nothing for it's looks then you probably want a black and white CLI device with thousands of buttons? In any case, I think the device and the UI is obviously quite nice looking and smooth. The curved, portrait only slider is one of the best slider solutions I have seen, although I personally think software keyboards are much better and certainly "the future" as they say.
Overall, IMO there was a lot of hype with this announcement, and when I sat down and really thought about it afterwards it seemed like it was more of an "alpha" product demo than a real thing. I would have to see a lot more detail before I could make any kind of realistic determination of whether Palm has a winner here or whether I would buy it.
I do think that Colligan is an idiot for thinking he has something "better than the iPhone," as that remains to be seen and I find the cocky-ness kind of out of place considering the situation. People are generally satisfied with the iPhone, that much is crystal clear. This phone, is a good alternative and will appeal to folks like yourself that have an iPhone and have had bad experiences with it or don't like it. The trouble is that's a very small market.
I am not so sure that this thing has what it takes to wean folks away from the iPhone if they are at present satisfied with it, and all surveys point to people being extremely, "over-the-top" satisfied with the iPhone. The other problem is that by the time this thing goes to market, it could well be facing iPhone 3.0.
I've owned lots of Palm products in my life right back to the Palm Pilot and wish them well, but IMO the odds are that they will be bought out or that eventually they will have to open up the OS or merge it with Android or drop it for Android. I don't think there is room in the market for multiple separate platforms for mobile devices anymore. The market will obviously converge around the iPhone OS, and maybe one other (at least for smartphones). Right now that looks like Android to me.
I'll cross post a bit of what I said on the other Pre thread, minus the irritable snark:
Quote:
So I'll expand a bit on Murch's question: what, exactly, do "Synergy" and "Multitasking" (as implemented by Palm) do for me, on a phone? Outside of being perfectly nice points of branding? Cause I notice that, beyond being invoked over and over again as the reasons the Pre crushed, destroys, embarrasses, humiliated and rules the iPhone, no one seems much interested in describing scenarios wherein those things are, you know, useful.
As has been pointed out, the iPhone certainly does multitask (it wouldn't be able to take a phone call why you were listening to your iPod if it didn't), it's just that Apple made a choice about what got exposed in the SDK to prevent running background apps from draining the battery. Instead, they've elected to use a fast quit and load scheme with saved states.
Since I'm never using more than one (full screen) app at once, it's not clear to me how having other apps actually running makes my life easier. As has also been pointed out, just enough background activity to provide notifications is enough "multitasking" to provide me with a seamless user experience, with big upsides for battery life.
Ditto "Synergy": outside of a unified messaging environment (which sounds like a nice enough app, have to see), what does that do for me?
Unlike computers, you can only work on one program at a time on a smartphone due to the limited screen size. I don't have anything against the Pre but lets be real. The Pre did not introduce anything new in term of hardware (removable batteries and keyboards are not new) and we still don't know how the OS will work. Multitasking and background applications are nice but I really don't want them if they are going to cut my battery life in half.
The one issue that I have that's most related to multitasking is that I would like iPhone to better remember the page I was on without forcing a refresh to see it again. It's as if Apple doesn't want to cache the page or something. It's kind of irritating to go to a program away from Safari, then go back in, and it forces a page reload when I didn't need or want that.
The one issue that I have that's most related to multitasking is that I would like iPhone to better remember the page I was on without forcing a refresh to see it again. It's as if Apple doesn't want to cache the page or something. It's kind of irritating to go to a program away from Safari, then go back in, and it forces a page reload when I didn't need or want that.
The one issue that I have that's most related to multitasking is that I would like iPhone to better remember the page I was on without forcing a refresh to see it again. It's as if Apple doesn't want to cache the page or something. It's kind of irritating to go to a program away from Safari, then go back in, and it forces a page reload when I didn't need or want that.
It doesn't do that on mine. Is that maybe after a long time? For example, if you leave Safari after posting to AI and go back in, it doesn't refresh and lose your reply.
If it's after a long time, it may do this to get the latest version of the page. If for example, you have a news page up, auto-refresh would be expected so you know you have the latest news.
It could be a setting in the preferences so that it doesn't refresh for people who don't want that though.
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
What kind of software - except for games - do you think is not possible to be programmed in javascript?
Quote:
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
are you serious? MySQL for example? and there are loads of non-free non-opensource software written in java or c#. so.. seriously... that is nothing developers keeps from developing.
and once again, apps for pre are not web apps. they are applications written in javascript and html markup. big difference.
... Ditto "Synergy": outside of a unified messaging environment (which sounds like a nice enough app, have to see), what does that do for me?
Yeah, I find it hilarious that folks on this thread are going on about the "synergy" the pre has, when it hasn't been explained (beyond the buzzword itself), what it even is.
It reminds me of that "techroline" additive in Chevron gas. "It's got technology in the tank!" Why? Because it has a chemical additive with a name similar sounding to "technology" that you don't even know what it does?
Yes, the Palm pre is better because it has "Synergy!" and synergy is .... (insert hopes and dreams here)
It's crap like "synergy," added to the rude hubris of Colligan, that are your best indicators that Palm is just spinning a tale here and floundering to produce some kind of coherent strategy.
This phone is more like Palms defiant statement that they are still (barely) "in the game" even though they are metaphorically still putting on their uniforms and adjusting their pads. They could indeed surprise us, but more likely their lack of practising with the new game plan and the fact that they are starting the game several million points behind might hinder them a bit.
What kind of software - except for games - do you think is not possible to be programmed in javascript?
Pretty much any multi-threaded app, OpenGL apps - this doesn't just mean games but hardware-accelerated video, 2D vector drawing, document editors, stuff that interacts with the hardware inputs like Ocarina plus virtual guitars, keyboards. There's quite a lot. No doubt some things will be covered by javascript extensions but there's a reason why the Mac community was annoyed when there was no proper SDK. Some of us develop using these tools every day and know their limitations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo
are you serious? MySQL for example? and there are loads of non-free non-opensource software written in java or c#. so.. seriously... that is nothing developers keeps from developing.
MySQL is nothing like those kind of apps. MySQL is a low level program daemon that controls your database access. The language that is used to interact with it is open but MySQL itself is not developed in languages that can be decompiled. It's also free btw - the enterprise stuff is mainly for developer support. Plus the larger open source projects that require payment are usually suitably complex that access to the source code doesn't do much for you unless you know what to do.
There are hardly any open source paid apps around and as I say, the ones that are, they are suitably complex to protect themselves from being unprofitable. Tiny webapps on a phone have no such complexity and therefore will not be profitable. Perhaps some subscription based SAAS/CRM stuff but it's not the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo
and once again, apps for pre are not web apps. they are applications written in javascript and html markup. big difference.
That's what a webapp is although server components (PHP, MySQL) play a part too. The only difference here is that Palm extended the Javascript language to address parts of the OS that it normally doesn't access in the interests of being cross-platform and secure. Palm don't have to bother about being cross-platform because as they say 'mobile is all they do'. This doesn't make it a good decision.
I'll cross post a bit of what I said on the other Pre thread, minus the irritable snark:
As has been pointed out, the iPhone certainly does multitask (it wouldn't be able to take a phone call why you were listening to your iPod if it didn't), it's just that Apple made a choice about what got exposed in the SDK to prevent running background apps from draining the battery. Instead, they've elected to use a fast quit and load scheme with saved states.
Since I'm never using more than one (full screen) app at once, it's not clear to me how having other apps actually running makes my life easier. As has also been pointed out, just enough background activity to provide notifications is enough "multitasking" to provide me with a seamless user experience, with big upsides for battery life.
Ditto "Synergy": outside of a unified messaging environment (which sounds like a nice enough app, have to see), what does that do for me?
Actually, when you get a call, the iphone terminates the audio app and starts the phone app.. it is not running both at the same time. It only comes back to what you were playing cause it saves the sate of the last application. also, not sure taking a call is an application. That is what the phone does, take a call, everything else is an app. if you use that definition, then all phones multitask (doesn't all phones allow you to take a call regardless of what you are doing?).. sorry, that is not example of multitasking.
I can see how you are angry, but this post is beyond the pale in terms of calling white black and hoping that no one will notice. As another old mac user, I can tell you that you are wrong on most of this.
.
Dang right I'm angry. Apple hasn't listened to any user requests regarding the iPhone but are still trying to put their finger in the dike and hoping Safari launches with the new rev. They chose to suck up all the money they could and give the Japanese market little icons that are a waste of time.
They waste more time trying to Brick phones than innovating these days.
The last upgrade gave a bit of stability and Street View from Google. BIG DEAL.
The iPhone has been surpassed in every way shape and form (the iphone is a fricking rectangle, not sexy (as the fanboy's love to say).
I've heard the room defend the iPhone that Apple could do it but chose not to.
Well F Apple, someone else has and I'll be moving my contract if the Pre lives up to the demo.
A company that quits listening to its end users is not a company I choose to do business with.
I love Tech and the new kid is on the playground (Yes, Palm is back with Fire) and the FanBoy's are crying and taking their ball and going home waiting for the next tidbit that Steve will ALLOW on the next iPhone.
Comments
All apps shown in the demo - that includes email, the calendar, the photo app and the dial app - were written this way, so I doubt there are concerns about flexibility.
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
how stupid is that, just look at the vast amounts of (paid) open source software, already available javascript browser apps available for desktop browsers or easily decompilable software written in java, .net- or scripting-languages.
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
I thought revolutionary is introducing features not found anywhere..
can you find a phone that multitask?..or one with integrated messaging?
The iphone does multitask, Apple just don't let you do it. It's not a hardware feature but a software feature. Also, as I've said earlier, Safari's tabs load in the background. Even if the Pre goes beyond this, it's not a completely innovative system that is way beyond anything we've seen.
I don't see what is the big deal about messaging. I get the impression you looked at the list of what the iphone does and what the Pre does and are blowing the differences way out of proportion. The iphone has instant messaging apps. No MMS but you have email. MMS was just what they invented because email wasn't on mobile phones.
Ok maybe instant messaging apps won't give you notifications when you are in other apps and some may close the program down because the developers haven't implemented the save state properly (some apps will suspend correctly and start where you left off when you go back in) but none of this is amazing stuff.
Are people this desperate to see the iphone being knocked down a peg to resort to hyping up a phone with a clumsy physical keyboard, only webapps and no known apps yet and that hasn't launched yet? The iphone has flaws that need to be fixed and maybe Apple will only get round to it when they look bad vs the competition but seriously, the Palm Pre is nothing to get this excited about.
What if Apple release the 3rd generation iphone with a multi-core ARM, the latest PowerVR, 32GB storage and turn multi-tasking on (maybe in a limited sense so that only maybe 2-3 background apps are allowed). Will you guys all be putting down the Palm Pre? I would imagine probably not. Given that the iphone is the father of all these devices, I don't understand the anti-iphone agenda.
I can see how you are angry, but this post is beyond the pale in terms of calling white black and hoping that no one will notice. As another old mac user, I can tell you that you are wrong on most of this.
1) No way of knowing if the pre outperforms the iPhone, you are just making that up at this point.
2) the demo was good but hardly blows away the iPhone or anything. More like they have solved similar problems in a different way (and sometimes in the exact same way).
3) the Newton had cut and paste.
4) The handwriting recognition was not that bad (yes I used it), and was pretty much fixed in the second update if I remember correctly, but by that time the media had already vilified it and the legend of bad recognition stuck.
The Newton failed because of a whole nexus of things. It was heavy, it was many years ahead of it's time (no average person would ever buy one or see a need to), it was expensive, and (at first) it was buggy.
"Regular" people are being drawn into using mobile computers and smart phones today only because computers themselves are far more ubiquitous, and the portable computers do several things that the average person actually needs. Most importantly, they make phone calls, and play music and video. When the Newton was out, it had none of those features. It was a geek-toy for those that could see the future. Hell most folks didn't even have cell phones then or email.
actually, he was not making up#1. Palm did say the pre would outperform the iphone.. maybe palm is making it up.
#2, the demo did blow away the iphone. Multitask, synergy?.. that blows away iphone for me. Why the hell would i want an iphone now?. I have never bought music from itunes so that holds no attraction for me. Other than the fact iphone is made by apple, why would i want to buy one?.. no cut and paste, no real time gps, no stereo bluetooth (to listen to music through bluetooth headphone). no integrated messaging, no mms.. why the hell would i buy that crippled piece of junk knowing what's coming down the pike?
And oh yeah, looking beautiful is secondary to me. I prefer features over looks (besides, the pre looks pretty nice to me) and a big, big icing on the cake is the inductive charger.. i have a phone right now and the connector is messed up.. very hard to charge the phone.. i curse almost every day.. was about to buy a new phone but now i will wait. You have no idea how important it is to be able to easily charge your phone until your phone connector gets messed up and you have to fiddle with it to get your phone charging.. makes you appreciate things you normally take for granted.
While the iPhone and iPod Touch keyboards are great, many prefer a one-handed portait approach which frees up the other hand for other tasks.
Yes.. I know.. I'm one of those people.. I used to use my Treo with one hand.. it was pretty easy to use.. but I actually think the iPhone is easier to use with one hand.... and I think the Palm Pre looks like it will be top-heavy with the keyboard out, making it quite hard to operate with just one hand.. (just a guess here)
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
The iphone does multitask, Apple just don't let you do it. It's not a hardware feature but a software feature. Also, as I've said earlier, Safari's tabs load in the background. Even if the Pre goes beyond this, it's not a completely innovative system that is way beyond anything we've seen.
I don't see what is the big deal about messaging. I get the impression you looked at the list of what the iphone does and what the Pre does and are blowing the differences way out of proportion. The iphone has instant messaging apps. No MMS but you have email. MMS was just what they invented because email wasn't on mobile phones.
Ok maybe instant messaging apps won't give you notifications when you are in other apps and some may close the program down because the developers haven't implemented the save state properly (some apps will suspend correctly and start where you left off when you go back in) but none of this is amazing stuff.
Are people this desperate to see the iphone being knocked down a peg to resort to hyping up a phone with a clumsy physical keyboard, only webapps and no known apps yet and that hasn't launched yet? The iphone has flaws that need to be fixed and maybe Apple will only get round to it when they look bad vs the competition but seriously, the Palm Pre is nothing to get this excited about.
What if Apple release the 3rd generation iphone with a multi-core ARM, the latest PowerVR, 32GB storage and turn multi-tasking on (maybe in a limited sense so that only maybe 2-3 background apps are allowed). Will you guys all be putting down the Palm Pre? I would imagine probably not. Given that the iphone is the father of all these devices, I don't understand the anti-iphone agenda.
Marvin, i think all the blogs on the net think the pre is revolutionary. Apple fans want to stick their head in the sand and claim the iphone could multitask but the great one wouldnt allow it.. fine, go ahead.
as to people wanting to see the iphone fail.. i don't. I like apple. I don't think the pre could ever make the iphone fail but to ignore the fact that its revolutionary cause you think the iphone could do the same.. well, sure, if shit had wings, it too could fly. When the iphone does the same stuff, let me know... until then.. coulda, shudda, woulda.. whatever. It does not do it.. that's all i know.
There is a big deal about messaging.. people message more than they talk now.. i used to be that way until like 5 years ago when i realized everyone around me was messaging while I was still talking. I have a sneaking suspicion you are a bit older?.. don't let someone under 30 hear you make that statement.. you would never be cool to a young woman ever again. Maybe you are way past that age to care about being cool but dude, that was an uncool statement..
Marvin, i think all the blogs on the net think the pre is revolutionary.
Those people do want to see the iphone fail. A great number of people want to see it fail. 9 out of 10 smartphone device manufacturers want to see it fail:
http://www.tgdaily.com/slideshows/in...=200810172&p=1
These people point to anything that has a hint of possibly being better at some things and put all their betting chips on it until they find it lacking and look for something else to do the same thing with. They'll be trying it with the Nokia N97 when it comes too.
I don't think the pre could ever make the iphone fail but to ignore the fact that its revolutionary cause you think the iphone could do the same.. well, sure, if shit had wings, it too could fly. When the iphone does the same stuff, let me know... until then.. coulda, shudda, woulda.. whatever. It does not do it.. that's all i know.
But that's the difference between it being revolutionary and not. Apple's device can do all this stuff but they choose not to in the interests of the end user experience.
Maybe you are way past that age to care about being cool but dude, that was an uncool statement..
Anyway, I agree these things need improved on the iphone. The point is that these are not revolutionary changes. Apple could fix them in a 2.3 update tomorrow. The 'coulda, shudda, woulda' thing doesn't move it into revolutionary territory based on the fact they haven't yet done it yet.
System-wide copy and paste is one of the easiest things you can do. All you are doing is adding text into a small memory buffer (could even be file-system based instead of Ram) and reading it from another program. It doesn't even have to be a separate program but a feature of the text field box, though it would be nice to copy/paste text from a browser page too.
For some reason, Apple leave even the smallest, easiest things alone. Things like the horizontal icon spacing on the Finder. 7-8 years they left it like that. It's not revolutionary that they added it because it's a minor feature and the flaws in the iphone are relatively minor.
Companies do this all the time to keep people upgrading. If they deliver the perfect home run, what can they offer in the next version? Adobe did this with After Effects - you couldn't animate x,y,z co-ordinates separately. This was ridiculously simple and yet they only fixed it in CS4 when they ran out of ideas.
So is there any reason to believe that web-based apps won't be just as big of a flop on the Pre as they were on the iPhone?
It is not as simple as that. They won't simply be "web" apps. Bottomline is that the Palm Pre sdk will allow native apps. Its just that the programmers will be using programming languages normallly associated with web apps. Uh uh dude Palm is out for blood!
Rubenstein is more or less only there to design the new phone though, and Colligan is a heartless old-time business guy with an inferiority complex running a company "on death's door."
It's very common for companies on their last legs to get infusions of venture capital as investor's bet on a long-shot retreat from the edge of the abyss. On the few occasions when this actually happens and the stock goes up, it's very hard to ignore the one moment when as an investor you could get all your money back and not lose anything simply by selling the company at that point.
I'm not saying it *will* necessarily happen, but while Rubenstein is in his lab cooing over the details of the product, Colligan is almost certainly weighing his options vis-a-vis a sale of the company. Even if he eventually decides not to do it, he would be foolish not to at least think about it.
The inventors and designers of the computer world often get screwed by their corporate masters in this way.
If I had controlling interest in Palm I might be tempted to have Colligan kicked out and have Jon Rubenstein replace him.
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
The iphone does multitask, Apple just don't let you do it. It's not a hardware feature but a software feature. Also, as I've said earlier, Safari's tabs load in the background. Even if the Pre goes beyond this, it's not a completely innovative system that is way beyond anything we've seen.
I don't see what is the big deal about messaging. I get the impression you looked at the list of what the iphone does and what the Pre does and are blowing the differences way out of proportion. The iphone has instant messaging apps. No MMS but you have email. MMS was just what they invented because email wasn't on mobile phones.
Ok maybe instant messaging apps won't give you notifications when you are in other apps and some may close the program down because the developers haven't implemented the save state properly (some apps will suspend correctly and start where you left off when you go back in) but none of this is amazing stuff.
Are people this desperate to see the iphone being knocked down a peg to resort to hyping up a phone with a clumsy physical keyboard, only webapps and no known apps yet and that hasn't launched yet? The iphone has flaws that need to be fixed and maybe Apple will only get round to it when they look bad vs the competition but seriously, the Palm Pre is nothing to get this excited about.
What if Apple release the 3rd generation iphone with a multi-core ARM, the latest PowerVR, 32GB storage and turn multi-tasking on (maybe in a limited sense so that only maybe 2-3 background apps are allowed). Will you guys all be putting down the Palm Pre? I would imagine probably not. Given that the iphone is the father of all these devices, I don't understand the anti-iphone agenda.
Its not an anti-apple "agenda" ....geezus agenda
There is no worse time to release a new phone. It's done all the time and this new phone will still do stuff the new iphone will not do (multitasking anyone?). might sound like a minor feature to you but imagine if your apple computer could not multitask but windows could... you'd switch to windows in a heartbeat. I predict after the pre, people will not be able to imagine living in a world where phones do not multitask becuase i gurantee you.. palm will see sales forcing all other handset makers to implement multitask just like apple has forced all handset makers to implement multi-touch (and multi task is a way bigger feature than multi-touch).
Unlike computers, you can only work on one program at a time on a smartphone due to the limited screen size. I don't have anything against the Pre but lets be real. The Pre did not introduce anything new in term of hardware (removable batteries and keyboards are not new) and we still don't know how the OS will work. Multitasking and background applications are nice but I really don't want them if they are going to cut my battery life in half. By the way, any news about the price and battery life?
When the iPhone was release it introduced multi touch and simplicity of the interface, The iPhone is so simple to use that even my 3 year old son knows how to unlock it and start any game he wants without my help.
If you want to make a successful phone you have to target everyone and not only tech users. Many people I know who bought an iPhone now have never owned a smartphone before. We've been hearing this iPhone killers talk since the iPhone was released. Unfortunately, non really delivered the promise even with a longer list of specs and features
actually, he was not making up#1. Palm did say the pre would outperform the iphone.. maybe palm is making it up.
Well, I missed that detail, but certainly *someone* is making that up. It's pretty much impossible to say either way when you are comparing an alpha or a product with a product that's been shipping for over a year. they could mean lots of things by that statement like faster chip speed, or subjectively faster execution but it's all really moot until it's a real product that can be compared one on one with the iPhone.
#2, the demo did blow away the iphone. Multitask, synergy?.. that blows away iphone for me. ...
I would agree with the "for me" part here, in that we are talking subjective perceptions really. I was personally quite impressed by the product, but certainly not "blown away." An hour or so later, once removed from the hype, I had some serious questions about what I saw. To me it's like going to a movie and walking out thinking it was great, only to tell someone a week later after thinking on it a bit that it kind of sucked. Again, I will wait until I actually see one in the wild and what it can do before I decide.
And oh yeah, looking beautiful is secondary to me. I prefer features over looks (besides, the pre looks pretty nice to me) ...
"Looks" is part of design though. If you want a device that cares nothing for it's looks then you probably want a black and white CLI device with thousands of buttons? In any case, I think the device and the UI is obviously quite nice looking and smooth. The curved, portrait only slider is one of the best slider solutions I have seen, although I personally think software keyboards are much better and certainly "the future" as they say.
Overall, IMO there was a lot of hype with this announcement, and when I sat down and really thought about it afterwards it seemed like it was more of an "alpha" product demo than a real thing. I would have to see a lot more detail before I could make any kind of realistic determination of whether Palm has a winner here or whether I would buy it.
I do think that Colligan is an idiot for thinking he has something "better than the iPhone," as that remains to be seen and I find the cocky-ness kind of out of place considering the situation. People are generally satisfied with the iPhone, that much is crystal clear. This phone, is a good alternative and will appeal to folks like yourself that have an iPhone and have had bad experiences with it or don't like it. The trouble is that's a very small market.
I am not so sure that this thing has what it takes to wean folks away from the iPhone if they are at present satisfied with it, and all surveys point to people being extremely, "over-the-top" satisfied with the iPhone. The other problem is that by the time this thing goes to market, it could well be facing iPhone 3.0.
I've owned lots of Palm products in my life right back to the Palm Pilot and wish them well, but IMO the odds are that they will be bought out or that eventually they will have to open up the OS or merge it with Android or drop it for Android. I don't think there is room in the market for multiple separate platforms for mobile devices anymore. The market will obviously converge around the iPhone OS, and maybe one other (at least for smartphones). Right now that looks like Android to me.
So I'll expand a bit on Murch's question: what, exactly, do "Synergy" and "Multitasking" (as implemented by Palm) do for me, on a phone? Outside of being perfectly nice points of branding? Cause I notice that, beyond being invoked over and over again as the reasons the Pre crushed, destroys, embarrasses, humiliated and rules the iPhone, no one seems much interested in describing scenarios wherein those things are, you know, useful.
As has been pointed out, the iPhone certainly does multitask (it wouldn't be able to take a phone call why you were listening to your iPod if it didn't), it's just that Apple made a choice about what got exposed in the SDK to prevent running background apps from draining the battery. Instead, they've elected to use a fast quit and load scheme with saved states.
Since I'm never using more than one (full screen) app at once, it's not clear to me how having other apps actually running makes my life easier. As has also been pointed out, just enough background activity to provide notifications is enough "multitasking" to provide me with a seamless user experience, with big upsides for battery life.
Ditto "Synergy": outside of a unified messaging environment (which sounds like a nice enough app, have to see), what does that do for me?
Unlike computers, you can only work on one program at a time on a smartphone due to the limited screen size. I don't have anything against the Pre but lets be real. The Pre did not introduce anything new in term of hardware (removable batteries and keyboards are not new) and we still don't know how the OS will work. Multitasking and background applications are nice but I really don't want them if they are going to cut my battery life in half.
The one issue that I have that's most related to multitasking is that I would like iPhone to better remember the page I was on without forcing a refresh to see it again. It's as if Apple doesn't want to cache the page or something. It's kind of irritating to go to a program away from Safari, then go back in, and it forces a page reload when I didn't need or want that.
The one issue that I have that's most related to multitasking is that I would like iPhone to better remember the page I was on without forcing a refresh to see it again. It's as if Apple doesn't want to cache the page or something. It's kind of irritating to go to a program away from Safari, then go back in, and it forces a page reload when I didn't need or want that.
Agreed.
The one issue that I have that's most related to multitasking is that I would like iPhone to better remember the page I was on without forcing a refresh to see it again. It's as if Apple doesn't want to cache the page or something. It's kind of irritating to go to a program away from Safari, then go back in, and it forces a page reload when I didn't need or want that.
It doesn't do that on mine. Is that maybe after a long time? For example, if you leave Safari after posting to AI and go back in, it doesn't refresh and lose your reply.
If it's after a long time, it may do this to get the latest version of the page. If for example, you have a news page up, auto-refresh would be expected so you know you have the latest news.
It could be a setting in the preferences so that it doesn't refresh for people who don't want that though.
Calendar and email apps are basic, the photo type app has been shown with Sproutcore. There is a world of difference between this type of software and low-level software.
What kind of software - except for games - do you think is not possible to be programmed in javascript?
Where? I've never seen a vast amount of paid software developed this way. Certainly no apps that are worth having. Do you use any software developed this way?
are you serious? MySQL for example?
and once again, apps for pre are not web apps. they are applications written in javascript and html markup. big difference.
... Ditto "Synergy": outside of a unified messaging environment (which sounds like a nice enough app, have to see), what does that do for me?
Yeah, I find it hilarious that folks on this thread are going on about the "synergy" the pre has, when it hasn't been explained (beyond the buzzword itself), what it even is.
It reminds me of that "techroline" additive in Chevron gas. "It's got technology in the tank!" Why? Because it has a chemical additive with a name similar sounding to "technology" that you don't even know what it does?
Yes, the Palm pre is better because it has "Synergy!" and synergy is .... (insert hopes and dreams here)
It's crap like "synergy," added to the rude hubris of Colligan, that are your best indicators that Palm is just spinning a tale here and floundering to produce some kind of coherent strategy.
This phone is more like Palms defiant statement that they are still (barely) "in the game" even though they are metaphorically still putting on their uniforms and adjusting their pads. They could indeed surprise us, but more likely their lack of practising with the new game plan and the fact that they are starting the game several million points behind might hinder them a bit.
What kind of software - except for games - do you think is not possible to be programmed in javascript?
Pretty much any multi-threaded app, OpenGL apps - this doesn't just mean games but hardware-accelerated video, 2D vector drawing, document editors, stuff that interacts with the hardware inputs like Ocarina plus virtual guitars, keyboards. There's quite a lot. No doubt some things will be covered by javascript extensions but there's a reason why the Mac community was annoyed when there was no proper SDK. Some of us develop using these tools every day and know their limitations.
are you serious? MySQL for example?
There are hardly any open source paid apps around and as I say, the ones that are, they are suitably complex to protect themselves from being unprofitable. Tiny webapps on a phone have no such complexity and therefore will not be profitable. Perhaps some subscription based SAAS/CRM stuff but it's not the same thing.
and once again, apps for pre are not web apps. they are applications written in javascript and html markup. big difference.
That's what a webapp is although server components (PHP, MySQL) play a part too. The only difference here is that Palm extended the Javascript language to address parts of the OS that it normally doesn't access in the interests of being cross-platform and secure. Palm don't have to bother about being cross-platform because as they say 'mobile is all they do'. This doesn't make it a good decision.
I'll cross post a bit of what I said on the other Pre thread, minus the irritable snark:
As has been pointed out, the iPhone certainly does multitask (it wouldn't be able to take a phone call why you were listening to your iPod if it didn't), it's just that Apple made a choice about what got exposed in the SDK to prevent running background apps from draining the battery. Instead, they've elected to use a fast quit and load scheme with saved states.
Since I'm never using more than one (full screen) app at once, it's not clear to me how having other apps actually running makes my life easier. As has also been pointed out, just enough background activity to provide notifications is enough "multitasking" to provide me with a seamless user experience, with big upsides for battery life.
Ditto "Synergy": outside of a unified messaging environment (which sounds like a nice enough app, have to see), what does that do for me?
Actually, when you get a call, the iphone terminates the audio app and starts the phone app.. it is not running both at the same time. It only comes back to what you were playing cause it saves the sate of the last application. also, not sure taking a call is an application. That is what the phone does, take a call, everything else is an app. if you use that definition, then all phones multitask (doesn't all phones allow you to take a call regardless of what you are doing?).. sorry, that is not example of multitasking.
I can see how you are angry, but this post is beyond the pale in terms of calling white black and hoping that no one will notice. As another old mac user, I can tell you that you are wrong on most of this.
.
Dang right I'm angry. Apple hasn't listened to any user requests regarding the iPhone but are still trying to put their finger in the dike and hoping Safari launches with the new rev. They chose to suck up all the money they could and give the Japanese market little icons that are a waste of time.
They waste more time trying to Brick phones than innovating these days.
The last upgrade gave a bit of stability and Street View from Google. BIG DEAL.
The iPhone has been surpassed in every way shape and form (the iphone is a fricking rectangle, not sexy (as the fanboy's love to say).
I've heard the room defend the iPhone that Apple could do it but chose not to.
Well F Apple, someone else has and I'll be moving my contract if the Pre lives up to the demo.
A company that quits listening to its end users is not a company I choose to do business with.
I love Tech and the new kid is on the playground (Yes, Palm is back with Fire) and the FanBoy's are crying and taking their ball and going home waiting for the next tidbit that Steve will ALLOW on the next iPhone.